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Whedon Off Wonder Woman

Started by Talavar, February 02, 2007, 08:07:20 PM

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Protomorph

I kinda like what they did in the comics, in that Hypolita was the WWII era Wonder Woman. This would also easily explain the star-spangled costume. Diana's mother had already been to man's world, and knew that over the top patriotism worked well in the 1940's America.

This way, there could be both modern and period pieces in the film.

Revenant

I heard that Silver the producer has fast-tracked the movie, and another unfounded rumor that they were finding locations for shooting in Canada..

Mr. Hamrick

I've not heard anything about them fast tracking the movie or location scouting in Canada.  I do know that to fast track the movie they would at least need a treatment they liked and in all likelihood a rough script.

BentonGrey


catwhowalksbyhimself

Agreed.  For one thing, and I don't mean this to come across as racist or anything, but there's no way Wonder Woman, or at least the tradition Diana version, should be black.  It just doesn't fit in with the WW mythology.  Olive skinned or more Mediterranean, yes.  Maybe even mid-eastern, but not black.

If she really wants to play a superhero, I'm sure one more suitable could be found, depending on her acting skills, which I know nothing about.

Recently, there have been rumors and a fake web site about Megan Fox playing WW, but this has been revealed as a hoax.  Personally, I think Cote de Pablo from NCIS would work, as she can do a physically strong yet still feminine character that can actually be threatening at times.  Her Mediterranean look would work fine, and be a break from the normal completely white look which still fitting the Greek mythological origins of the character and still looking like the character.

BentonGrey

Haha, my thoughts exactly.  The problem with a black Wonder Woman has nothing to do with societal restrictions, but the fact that she is GREEK.  Ha...anyway, Cote de Pablo looks WW'ish enough in the face but she lacks...erhm...the build for the Amazon.

catwhowalksbyhimself

For a real life woman, she is quite physically strong.  I'm not sure what you mean by that in this case.

thanoson

He's talking about her mammaries.

catwhowalksbyhimself

Oh, well I'm not going to insist on that level of accuracy.

BentonGrey

Haha.....well, not precisely, no, but the lady in question does seem to be a bit too slim for the role, and not only in chest-like-region-area....

catwhowalksbyhimself

Fair enough, although I don't think she's that bad off.  There are plenty of other decent candidates, I am sure.  I'd just rather it not be a pop star or big hollywood person.  A no name or a small screen person like the one I suggested would be preferred.

I would also caution you that there may not be another Lynda Carter out there, so they may have to just make do.

BentonGrey

I agree wholeheartedly, Cat.  I imagine we're on the same page. 

AfghanAnt

First off, I'd like to point out Wonder Woman is not Greek but rather an Amazon. Second there were interactions between the ancient Greeks and northern African kingdoms. Herodotus of Halicarnassus describes the people of Nubia (modern Sudan) in great details as well as the Greeks interactions with them. So there being a African (Black is not a race nor a skin color, it's a superficial label like "Latin") Amazon who happens to be a Wonder Woman wouldn't that far off.

From a purely nerd perspective, there are several black Amazons on Paradise Island and most notably Diana pre-crisis sister, Nu'bia. Nub'bia was Wonder Woman of the Floating Island and was in fact Wonder Woman's twin sister who was created from darker clay when Hippolyta created Diana.

http://www.comicvine.com/nubia/29-34121/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu%27Bia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYeDNFfgGsQ

Also Beyonce = $$$ which is all Time Warner cares about. Kthanxbai!

catwhowalksbyhimself

A WW, yes, I worded my first post very carefully to allow for that possibility.  But I'd rather the Diana version not be.  My preference would be a Mediterranean look with a slight accent to match, but that's just me.

BentonGrey

Interesting points AA, although "African" is as erroneous a racial category as black, seeing as Africa contained a rather large variety of ethnicities before Europeans ever began to settle there.  The world contains infinite varieties and exceptions, while language is, alas, finite.  Still, historically speaking, Amazons were of Scythian/Sarmatian descent, and had nothing to do with Africa, one way or the other.  Now, you've shown precedent for black Amazons in comics, and that is definitely worth noting, but I suppose my final objection (other than the idea of a celebrity just 'wanting' to play a superhero rubbing me the wrong way) is that I hate it when the character's classic appearance is change for no good reason.

AfghanAnt

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
Still, historically speaking, Amazons were of Scythian/Sarmatian descent, and had nothing to do with Africa, one way or the other.

Comically, Amazons are a group of slain women who were reincarnated from all ethnic backgrounds and we are defending the comic Amazons, right?

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
although "African" is as erroneous a racial category as black, seeing as Africa contained a rather large variety of ethnicities before Europeans ever began to settle there.

While you are correct about there being people of many ethnic backgrounds living in modern Africa, my usage of "African" is no different than say someone using the word "Asian" to label a large group of people who physically look similar yet are not of the same cultural or ethnic background. The word "black" could be used in the place of "African" but it takes away any cultural link a group of people have to their ancestral homeland yet their ethnic identity has been robbed of them (Beyonce can be correctly called African because she has no direct link to her ethnic African identity but is aware of an Ancestry link to an African area. Example, if an Japanese child is taken from Japan and placed in the home of Americans who have no clue of her ethnic background she would mostly call herself "Asian" because of her facial features.

I personally frown on the usage of the word Black because Aboriginals are sometimes called "Blacks" but they are not Africans as well as dark skinned Indians and the Negrito of Asia. Essentially, when you say Wonder Woman can't be black, what you are really saying is Wonder Woman can not be non-"White". Also if we are to believe where the origin myth of the Amazons come from Wonder Woman and the Amazons should be rather dark skinned and someone like Pooja should be Diana: http://www.sunyaprajna.com/Beauty/Pooja.jpg  or even Morena Baccarin http://www.btinternet.com/~crippsy_99/pictures/autographs/inara.jpg ?

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
I suppose my final objection (other than the idea of a celebrity just 'wanting' to play a superhero rubbing me the wrong way) is that I hate it when the character's classic appearance is change for no good reason.

I'm just saying she doesn't have to be Diana to be Wonder Woman. Same way, Jon Stewart can be a Green Lantern and be "black" and Eartha Kitt (Good) and Hallie Berry (Very Bad) could be Catwoman.  I personally think that has been my biggest problem with Comic to TV/Film movies, it is not the changes to the character but rather the bitching from the comic purest who will never be satisfied and act as if different interpretation of a character will destroy their personal view.

BentonGrey

Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 10, 2008, 10:15:16 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
Still, historically speaking, Amazons were of Scythian/Sarmatian descent, and had nothing to do with Africa, one way or the other.

Comically, Amazons are a group of slain women who were reincarnated from all ethnic backgrounds and we are defending the comic Amazons, right?

Ahh, you obviously know more about the comic WW than I do.  I'm not a huge fan of hers.  My knowledge is much more historical.  As far as I knew they were the mythical Amazons saved from the ravages of time by Hera. 

Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 10, 2008, 10:15:16 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
although "African" is as erroneous a racial category as black, seeing as Africa contained a rather large variety of ethnicities before Europeans ever began to settle there.

While you are correct about there being people of many ethnic backgrounds living in modern Africa, my usage of "African" is no different than say someone using the word "Asian" to label a large group of people who physically look similar yet are not of the same cultural or ethnic background. The word "black" could be used in the place of "African" but it takes away any cultural link a group of people have to their ancestral homeland yet their ethnic identity has been robbed of them (Beyonce can be correctly called African because she has no direct link to her ethnic African identity but is aware of an Ancestry link to an African area. Example, if an Japanese child is taken from Japan and placed in the home of Americans who have no clue of her ethnic background she would mostly call herself "Asian" because of her facial features.

I personally frown on the usage of the word Black because Aboriginals are sometimes called "Blacks" but they are not Africans as well as dark skinned Indians and the Negrito of Asia. Essentially, when you say Wonder Woman can't be black, what you are really saying is Wonder Woman can not be non-"White". Also if we are to believe where the origin myth of the Amazons come from Wonder Woman and the Amazons should be rather dark skinned and someone like Pooja should be Diana: http://www.sunyaprajna.com/Beauty/Pooja.jpg  or even Morena Baccarin http://www.btinternet.com/~crippsy_99/pictures/autographs/inara.jpg ?

Well, see, there's the rub.  Many people who would identify themselves as, say, "African American" may, in fact, be descended from some people group from Africa, but many others very well may not be.  The "African" part of their identity is often purely a construct.  This is not necessarily a bad thing, and it is understandable considering the woeful history of "black" people in the Americas, but it does create some interesting paradoxes.  For example, many actual Africans resent the use of the identifier "African" by Americans and Europeans, precisely because of the constructed form of said identification.  The natives view these others as no more African than they, themselves, are American.  So, once again, we are confronted by the vagaries of language.  Who has the right to the term "African?"  Those who may be descended from Africans?  Those who live in Africa?  Does ANYONE have the right to a term, anyway?  I actually prefer the terms "black" or "white" because they, to me anyway, represent how utterly meaningless the designations are, taking on equal significance to "green eyed" or "attached earlobes" in the service of pure convenience in identification.  My ancestors MAY be from Wales, in part, some of them may be from England, some from France, some of them may even be from Germany.  I know a few of them were Native Americans, but I am no more English, French, German, or Welsh than Clark Kent.

As far as the physical characteristics of mythical Amazons, ha, as far as such things may be guessed at, she would be dark haired, light skinned (but not, say, norse skinned), and fairly close to Greek.  You're going a bit too far East with your people groups with Pooja, although Inara there would be pretty close, I imagine.  It is all, of course, moot conjecture, as the Amazons were only supposed to have intermarried with the Scythians, then the Sarmatians, so for all we know the mythical Amazons may have been bright blue. ^_^

Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 10, 2008, 10:15:16 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
I suppose my final objection (other than the idea of a celebrity just 'wanting' to play a superhero rubbing me the wrong way) is that I hate it when the character's classic appearance is change for no good reason.

I'm just saying she doesn't have to be Diana to be Wonder Woman. Same way, Jon Stewart can be a Green Lantern and be "black" and Eartha Kitt (Good) and Hallie Berry (Very Bad) could be Catwoman.  I personally think that has been my biggest problem with Comic to TV/Film movies, it is not the changes to the character but rather the bitching from the comic purest who will never be satisfied and act as if different interpretation of a character will destroy their personal view.

Interesting that you'd bring up Jon Stewart.  When Justice League first aired I was really annoyed with the inclusion of him as GL and Hawkgirl, not because they were "black" or a woman respectively, but because I thought that the makers of the show had just changed Hal Jordan's appearance and Katar Hol's sex for no other reason than to add "diversity" to the show.  When I realized that Jon Stewart was a classic character with a really cool history, and the same for Shayera, my opinion changed greatly.  That being said, you'll have to forgive my adherence to Diana as WW, as I've never really known that there were others.  It has only been recently through FF that I've even heard of her being replaced, and I had no clue that Nub'ia had been a WW too.  I wouldn't cite Hallie Berry to defend your position, though. ;)  Who could complain about Ertha Kitt though? :D  Anyway, I'm a purest, and I make no apologies about that, but I do try to be reasonable in my desire for adherence to sources.

Uncle Yuan

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 11:41:11 AM

Interesting that you'd bring up Jon Stewart.  When Justice League first aired I was really annoyed with the inclusion of him as GL and Hawkgirl, not because they were "black" or a woman respectively, but because I thought that the makers of the show had just changed Hal Jordan's appearance and Katar Hol's sex for no other reason than to add "diversity" to the show. 

Well, they included two minor characters for no other reason than to add diversity to the show. 

BentonGrey

Do you mean Jon Stewart and Hawkgirl?  I wouldn't really call Hawkgirl a minor character, and Stewart was a pretty interesting GL. 

Uncle Yuan

Agreed, but to the general public they're pretty unknown.  And with the caveat that I am not up on my Hawk-history, my understanding is that the Hawkgirl in the show bears very little similarity in character to the various established Hawkfemales.

The argument still stands - these two specific characters were included so that the JLA wouldn't be a bunch of white guys plus Wonder Woman.

None of which has anything to do with the topic of this thread.  I think Beyonce would be great eye candy, and I personally don't give a rip about WW's race as long as the actress can pull off the grit and physicality of the role.  But "color blind casting" or no, I just don't think Beyonce could pull off the character.

BentonGrey

Actually the Hawkgirl of the series was very similar to the Hawkworld incarnation of the character, as I understand it.  Anyway, while I don't care for people monkeying with stuff to increase diversity, their portrayal of the characters was so good I had no cause to complain.

Ares_God_of_War

no to beyonce as WW. She doesnt even come close to giving me the idea she can be tough at all.

GhostMachine

Casting Wonder Woman, they should probably go with an unknown. Hair and eye color don't matter, since they can always dye her hair or slap on a wig and use contact lenses or recolor her eyes in editing.
However, the problem is that to be accurate they should cast someone fairly tall - at least 5'10" - who is either in their mid-20's or looks like they are. I've cringed at several of the suggestions I've heard, with Monica Belucci being the only one that would work - if she was 20 years younger.




AfghanAnt

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 10, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
When Justice League first aired I was really annoyed with the inclusion of him as GL and Hawkgirl, not because they were "black" or a woman respectively, but because I thought that the makers of the show had just changed Hal Jordan's appearance and Katar Hol's sex for no other reason than to add "diversity" to the show.

While I am sure they were chosen for that reason, you make diversity sound like a bad thing.

Also I'd like to point out I am in no way saying Beyonce would be a good Wonder Woman because honestly she is a "meh" actress at best. She should stick to singing.

catwhowalksbyhimself

QuoteWhile I am sure they were chosen for that reason, you make diversity sound like a bad thing.

They were, but the results turned out well, and millions were introduced to the John Steward GL for the first time.

BentonGrey

Well, diversity isn't a bad thing, and I can certainly understand the value in giving viewers characters that they can identify with, but it bugs me when existing ideas that I'm fond of are changed in an attempt to do so.  The problem is that the changes are mostly wrought by people who don't know anything about them, and therefore don't care about them at all.  The characters existed for fifty some years, so obviously there was something compelling about them.  Anyway, as I said, JLA ended up doing this in the best way possible and I was infinitely pleased with the result.  If you want to add diversity to a show, that is how you do it.

JeyNyce


catwhowalksbyhimself

I made a reference to the original version in an earlier post, but the hoax had just been revealed and the site was down at the time, so I left out a link.

At any rate, the author is talent, but he's wrong about Megan looking the part.  Stick skinny, willow, delicate waifs should never, ever be allowed anywhere close to that costume.  You can't even where it unless you've had at least two meals the day before.  It's a rule.

JeyNyce

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on November 19, 2008, 07:28:17 AM
I made a reference to the original version in an earlier post, but the hoax had just been revealed and the site was down at the time, so I left out a link.

At any rate, the author is talent, but he's wrong about Megan looking the part.  Stick skinny, willow, delicate waifs should never, ever be allowed anywhere close to that costume.  You can't even where it unless you've had at least two meals the day before.  It's a rule.

That's cold, :)
I think she be WW if she really work at it.  Toby looked like Peter Parker, but look how much he had to bulk up so he could Spider-man.  Christopher Reeves had to work out too before he was Superman.

BentonGrey

Nah, Cat's right, she could work at all she wants, she just doesn't have the build for it.  If Christopher Reeve had been built like Jude Law or Johnny Deppe, he couldn't have played Superman, no matter how much he worked out. 

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