Street Fighter IV

[gengoro]

http://www.streetfighterworld.com/

Bout time capcom.  Better be real damn it! :angry:

[kkhohoho]

The God of fighters has returned

I'd have to disagree.  Not about it returning, but about it being the God of Fighters, unless you meant that Street Fighter II created the fighting genre.  Still, Street Fighter has it's fans, and they will be happy.

However I consider the only good Street Fighter game to be Street Fighter III: Third Strike.  Personally, I prefer the games of their rival, SNK, except for their early games and KOF99-03.  I may be alone on this, but I prefer SNK's characters, moves, and gameplay to Capcom.  SNK also tends to give it's characters more moves.  In SFIII: Third Strike, Ryu had 4 specials.  In Real Bout: Fatal Fury 2, Terry Bogard (SNK's mascot) had 8 specials.  Still, I'd be happy if Street Fighter 4 improved the great game that Street Fighter III was.  By that, I mean giving it's characters a decent amount of moves, keeping all the features besides only having one Super Art at a time, and not making it a button masher.  Most of Capcom's fighting games are button mashers.

[gengoro]

While it wasnt the first fighting game, it is the major influence and it helped kick start the whole genre. 

Also I agree that some of the Vs series games could be mash happy or even unbalanced(MvC2), they still take a good amount of skill.  Heck most fighters have a degree of mashyness. 

[zuludelta]

Speaking as someone who's wasted a good many afternoons playing arcade fighters, I have to say I'm excited about this. I really hope they can add something to the gameplay, although I'm not sure how they can improve on the mechanics of Street Fighter III: Third Strike (multi-level stages? co-op play?).

[kkhohoho]

Speaking as someone who's wasted a good many afternoons playing arcade fighters, I have to say I'm excited about this. I really hope they can add something to the gameplay, although I'm not sure how they can improve on the mechanics of Street Fighter III: Third Strike (multi-level stages? co-op play?).

I know of some ways to improve.

1.Rolling.  The ability to roll behind your opponent.  It also dodges projectiles and some other attacks, but you can be hit by certain attacks during it.  The King of Fighters Series and Capcom vs SNK2 have this feature, and it adds some more depth.
2.More then 1 type of jump.  In addition to normal jumping, they could add in a small jump,(lightly press up) a long jump,(press forward right pressing up) and a small long jump.(press forward right after lightly pressing up.  Also, a long jump isn't that super jump from the VS series.
3.Running.  Instead of doing a small dash, why not add the ability to run?  It'll speed up the gameplay a bit, and add a bit more depth, since you can better control runs then dashes.
4.More then 1 super Art at a time.
5.Knockback attack.  An attack that each character has that knocks the opponent backwards.

All of these features have been in other fighting games, and they work.

[Mowgli]

I'm down with gengoro's description of Street Fighter as the "god of fighters". It makes sense.

Other fighters before Street Fighter? Yeah, a few, like the classic Karate Champ, etc. But none that even approached the success or popularity of the Street Fighter games. They defined that genre, and everyone else was just playing keep up trying to cash on the same thing, with slight changes in flavor. Fatal Fury, Mortal Kombat, Samurai Showdown (which I like very much) are all reflections of Street Fighter. They may change the theme, or add a new move here or there, but they are basically Street Fighter games.

kkhohoho: While I agree with some of your ideas about improving on SF games, there are a few I don't. Rolling is a bad, bad thing. There are videos out that prove that rolling through other characters can and do create unstoppable combos. One of the world chamion guys (I don't know any names) displayed this at a huge gaming convention. There is a glitch with the rolling, and if that were fixed, it could be a good thing. I agree about running and more than one jump, but some of the later versions did have that (especially in the Marvel crossovers). I would also say, I have rarely seen a good Street Fighter player beaten by a button masher. Once "toe tapping" (the jab kick so fast it couldn't be interupted and causing a daze) was elimintaed, it became a very good fighter. I disagree about more than one super at a time. To me, that makes the game much less of a challenge and just a race to hit with a super. Once you do, if you can combo into another, you do ridiculous damage, and the fight is over. I prefer a longer match, more like a chess game.

All in all, I am excited by the trailer. I do wish it showed some gameplay though. I have no idea what to expect. Does anyone know anything about the gameplay? Is it another 2d fighter? Just curious. I can't wait to see more!  :)

[TheMarvell]

awesome. I grew up a huge fan of Street Fighter II. Never really got into the later ones because I sucked royally, but I did pick up both collections on PS2 (anniversary and alpha) which were great. I've always liked this series better than other fighters like Mortal Kombat.

Which systems will this be on? And is it sticking with 2D or going for a 3D approach this time?

[Previsionary]

I, personally, hope it stays the 2d route as the market is full of 3d fighting games these days. That and, the SF 3-d games (EX) haven't been nearly as fun, imo.

[zuludelta]

Rolling is a bad, bad thing. There are videos out that prove that rolling through other characters can and do create unstoppable combos. One of the world chamion guys (I don't know any names) displayed this at a huge gaming convention. There is a glitch with the rolling, and if that were fixed, it could be a good thing...

...I disagree about more than one super at a time. To me, that makes the game much less of a challenge and just a race to hit with a super. Once you do, if you can combo into another, you do ridiculous damage, and the fight is over. I prefer a longer match, more like a chess game.

My thoughts exactly. I've always viewed the "super" as more of an embellishment to the core gameplay, and not an end in itself. The problem I found with many of the later iterations of Street Fighter (including the Marvel vs Capcom games) is that the matches basically devolved into a race involving who could fill up their meter faster, which can be fun in itself, but gets pretty old real fast especially when players resort to proven "rinse-and-repeat" meter-building moves.

I might be speaking Street Fighter blasphemy here but I wouldn't mind designers getting rid of the "super" (as it's currently designed) all together, or at least the element of filling up a meter that enables a player to execute the "super." They can take a cue from the best 3d fighters (like Virtua Fighter, Tekken, and Soul Calibur)... just make a ridiculously powerful move available at all times to the player but at a cost that doesn't require building up a meter (which lends itself to button-mashing gameplay): make it a long wind-up move (to cut down on overuse) that requires practiced and more-than-average manual dexterity and timing. That way, the move is available only to players who actually put in the time and effort to learn the nuances of the moveset and the flow of combat, and novice button mashers (who in previous versions of the game can get by just by using the minimum skills needed to build up a meter to pull off a "super") will have to explore the gameplay and expand their repertoire of moves.       

All in all, I am excited by the trailer. I do wish it showed some gameplay though. I have no idea what to expect. Does anyone know anything about the gameplay? Is it another 2d fighter? Just curious. I can't wait to see more!  :)

Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if it turned out to be an RPG  :lol:?

It's quite possible that they'll move away from sprite-based art and start using stylized 3d models (maybe toon-shaded to keep the "animated" look?) but keep the gameplay on a 2d plane (much like what Konami did when they made Contra: Shattered Soldier for the PS2, or Nintendo with New Super Mario Bros. for the Gameboy DS).

[kkhohoho]

I'm down with gengoro's description of Street Fighter as the "god of fighters". It makes sense.

Other fighters before Street Fighter? Yeah, a few, like the classic Karate Champ, etc. But none that even approached the success or popularity of the Street Fighter games. They defined that genre, and everyone else was just playing keep up trying to cash on the same thing, with slight changes in flavor. Fatal Fury, Mortal Kombat, Samurai Showdown (which I like very much) are all reflections of Street Fighter. They may change the theme, or add a new move here or there, but they are basically Street Fighter games.

kkhohoho: While I agree with some of your ideas about improving on SF games, there are a few I don't. Rolling is a bad, bad thing. There are videos out that prove that rolling through other characters can and do create unstoppable combos. One of the world chamion guys (I don't know any names) displayed this at a huge gaming convention. There is a glitch with the rolling, and if that were fixed, it could be a good thing.

In the KOF series I have never seen rolling do unstoppable combos.  In fact, you can't really do combos with it.  If you roll behind the opponent and try to attack them, the opponent may see it coming, and defend.  I mainly use it get away from walls.  Other improvments I just thought of:
1.No walls.  Comboing can be deadly when against a wall, but if there were no walls, that wouldn't be the case, and there wouldn't be a need for rolling if paired with another improvement they could add.
2.Stepping into the background. If done right, a character could step into the background to avoid attacks and then attack from it while not being an unbalanced feature, and they could also come back in.  This was in Real Bout Fatal Fury 2.  You could dodge projectiles with it.  However,stepping at close range doesn't work well, because you don't go into the background in an instant, and an opponent could attack you and cancel your step.  What's more, attacking from it isn't overpowered, because while attacking from the background, you're moving once more into the foreground, and you can be attacked while doing this.  You can also be attacked by stepping in while not attacking.
3.Dodging.  A simple taunt which would last for a second or less.  It could be used to avoid attacks.  However, it wouldn't make parrying obsolete. While you could make an attack right after a parry, you wouldn't with a dodge be able to attack until the dodge was done.
4.Superbar only being filled by taking hits. This improvement is more for those who disprove of the superbar  You wouldn't be racing to increase your bar, because doing so would mean you might lose.  You'd just have to use it when you get it.
5.More moves.  Nuff said.

[Pyroclasm]

The real question is who will make a return to the World Tournament?  Ken & Ryu probably since both feature in the trailer.  But would they go with a mostly new set of characters?  Would they go nostalgic and bring back mostly those from 2?  This I'd like to know.

[gengoro]

Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if it turned out to be an RPG  :lol:?

A turn based one at that.  I think I would set this world on fire.

[Previsionary]

The real question is who will make a return to the World Tournament?  Ken & Ryu probably since both feature in the trailer.  But would they go with a mostly new set of characters?  Would they go nostalgic and bring back mostly those from 2?  This I'd like to know.

I would hope that they would go for a mixture of old and new possibly picking fan faves as returning old members. One of the factors that made SF3 sell considerably less than the SF2 generation was that it had mostly new characters and the only returning members were Ryu, Ken, and CHun Li (with a new sprite and animations).

Ha, Rpg...that'd never happen, me thinks. They've already done their feel of rpg/card games. They've also branched out with cammy and did an arcade shooter that was pretty fun.

On the rolling thing. It wouldn't take much to actually implement it and they've already partially added it in the alpha series. Not to mention Ken, Dan, and Sean have rolling techniques and the rolling thing seemed to work fine in Capcom vs. SNK 2 on DC. Also, I don't really consider "super arts" game killers since you can usually cancel most of them or easily avoid them. They're only really game killers in uber boss situations (IE: alpha 3 bison and almost EVERY snk boss). But like Mowgli said, rolling can easily lead into combos that can become unstoppable but only if a person really masters all that timing. It's not something a casual player would immediately pick up on. In fact, most, if not all, of kkho's suggestions were implemented in capcom vs. SNK but I don't think they have the right to carry those exact features outside of crossover games. At the very least, they could carry over the parry system that was highly effective if you really knew how to use it. *shrugs*.

[zuludelta]

I don't really consider "super arts" game killers since you can usually cancel most of them or easily avoid them.

I don't consider "supers" as game killers either (for the same reasons you mentioned), it's just that the method of building them up encourages many players to be a lot less creative and more mechanical with their playing style. I imagine the lack of creativity is pretty much a non-issue for most non-competitive/non-arcade players or for those who play primarily in single-player mode, but in an arcade tournament setting, or even just an informal tournament among fellow enthusiasts, the temptation is just too great for players to stick to abusing low-risk, high-reward moves (such as "Super Arts" and the 2 or 3 most efficient attacks that feed into the meter) that, in my opinion, deviate from the spirit of the game.

[UnfluffyBunny]

while KOF has it's moments, it really does pale compared to SF, I always found KoF to be kinda.... clumsy
that and SNK dont know how to balance their characters, just google "SNK boss syndrome"

oh and why dont they run?.... they're street fighters.. they -dont- run :P

[lugaru]

Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if it turned out to be an RPG  :lol:?

A turn based one at that.  I think I would set this world on fire.

Ok... from here I have a 54% chance to hit him with a hadoken, but I can target his face with a 21% chance.. hmmm...

[kkhohoho]

while KOF has it's moments, it really does pale compared to SF, I always found KoF to be kinda.... clumsy
that and SNK dont know how to balance their characters, just google "SNK boss syndrome"

oh and why dont they run?.... they're street fighters.. they -dont- run :P

You haven't played KOF98 or XI then.  KOF98 is a masterpiece, and is said to have the series best balance. You may think they still don't balance well because there characters are strong, but if most or all of the characters are strong, there is balance.  I haven't played KOFXI yet,(but I want to) it's supposed to up the pace, refine KOF03's tag-team system, and make the gameplay a lot less of what you would call "clunky"

I'm not a KOF fanboy though, because the series has had only a few good games.  I could also say the same for SF, except that it has only one good game.  If you're looking for an SNK game made around SF's time with equal controls and good balance, play Real Bout Fatal Fury 2 or Last Blade 1 or 2.

And running would help the SF games.

[Previsionary]

Sorry KKHO, but many would disagree with you on the SF series only having "one" good game. To my knowledge, people rushed out to buy all the street fighter 2 spin offs, the alpha series, and some of the 3d games. Heck, even pocket fighters sold considerably well as did super puzzle fighters. I'm curious as to what makes you say the series only had one good game while effectivily ignoring the other games that greatly improved on SF/SS2T's gameplay, speed, and balance.

Syn is correct with the balance thing in KOF/SNK. He's not talking about the playable characters for the most part but the AI bosses. SNK had a whole syndrome named after them because most, if not all, KOF games make the boss super uber by "enhancing" their abilities and augmenting their regular attacks.

SNK boss syndrome + examples

[kkhohoho]

Sorry KKHO, but many would disagree with you on the SF series only having "one" good game. To my knowledge, people rushed out to buy all the street fighter 2 spin offs, the alpha series, and some of the 3d games. Heck, even pocket fighters sold considerably well as did super puzzle fighters. I'm curious as to what makes you say the series only had one good game while effectivily ignoring the other games that greatly improved on SF/SS2T's gameplay, speed, and balance.

Syn is correct with the balance thing in KOF/SNK. He's not talking about the playable characters for the most part but the AI bosses. SNK had a whole syndrome named after them because most, if not all, KOF games make the boss super uber by "enhancing" their abilities and augmenting their regular attacks.

SNK boss syndrome + examples

I know about the boss syndrome. And, I've played SFII, SFAlpha 2 and 3, and SFIII 2nd impact and 3rd Strike.  The ones before 3rd Strike were okay, but not good.  Before that, most fighters in SF games had few moves, and by that, I mean 3-4, with some having 5.  But, I just don't like most of Cpacom's fighters.  Most of them hae button mashing.  Most SF's have few moves, little depth to the gameplay, and uninteresting characters and attacks.  I'm not fond of VS's beams and "stylish" attacks either.  Then there's SNK.  More moves, more gameplay features, and more interesting characters and attacks.  And while you're all complaining about "SNK Boss Syndrome", take a look at Guile from SFIII.  He has powerfull attacks, and can revive himself when defeated.

All in all, I just like SNK better. But we all like what we like, so let's just put all this aside, and move on.

[Previsionary]

Gill*

Anyway, there's nothing to put aside. I was just curious as to why you said there was only "one" good game in the SF series while SNK had "a few". twasn't a big deal or anything. If I really wanted to delve into things, I could've pointed out that you exaggerated a few things, but that's neither here nor there. Heh.

Also, we're not all complaining about the snk boss syndrome. It's a notable game flaw in the SNK series that was "bad" (subjective) enough to get it's own name that could easily be applied to other game bosses. I already pointed out one in SF, so it's not like i was being biased there.

[kkhohoho]

Gill*

Anyway, there's nothing to put aside. I was just curious as to why you said there was only "one" good game in the SF series while SNK had "a few". twasn't a big deal or anything. If I really wanted to delve into things, I could've pointed out that you exaggerated a few things, but that's neither here nor there. Heh.

Also, we're not all complaining about the snk boss syndrome. It's a notable game flaw in the SNK series that was "bad" (subjective) enough to get it's own name that could easily be applied to other game bosses. I already pointed out one in SF, so it's not like i was being biased there.

Sorry.  I didn't mean you were being mean.  By "putting it aside", I meant that we should stop talking about it, because we might have continued to talk about this, and, while not being a mean argument, it could go on for some time, with no one really winning.  And I didn't think you were complaining about SNK Boss Syndrome.  You were just talking about it, that's all.

[UnfluffyBunny]

for the record, I do infact own all the KoF games AND all the SF games.... and I started on SF with SF2 championship ed on the megadrive / genesis some rough 16 years ago.... infact i've played pretty much every beat em up thats come out in the last 16 years >_>

[kkhohoho]

for the record, I do infact own all the KoF games AND all the SF games.... and I started on SF with SF2 championship ed on the megadrive / genesis some rough 16 years ago.... infact i've played pretty much every beat em up thats come out in the last 16 years >_>

How about games that haven't come out where you live, like KOF 96 or KOF XI?

[UnfluffyBunny]

correction, I own BOTH of those on the ps2, 96 was on a multi KoF CD, cant find a link this sec but i'll take a photo if you really want, and XI as you can see here -> http://www.play.com/Games/PlayStation2/4-/1125979/King-Of-Fighters-XI/Product.html
was indeed released here.

how about checking your facts before making comments like that eh?

[kkhohoho]

correction, I own BOTH of those on the ps2, 96 was on a multi KoF CD, cant find a link this sec but i'll take a photo if you really want, and XI as you can see here -> http://www.play.com/Games/PlayStation2/4-/1125979/King-Of-Fighters-XI/Product.html
was indeed released here.

how about checking your facts before making comments like that eh?

Sorry.  I thought you lived in the US, and to my knowledge, KOF 96 hasn't been released at all there yet, and KOFXI doesn't come out till Tuesday or Wednesday.  If you live in Europe, then yes, both games are out there.  So, based on you earlier and current comments, you're saying that SF is even better then KOF XI and KOF 98?  If you say "yes", I wouldn't agree, but that's only my opinion.

[Mowgli]

 kkhohoho: If all the SF games before Third Impact were just "okay", but "not good" then why did everyone, including all KoF games, copy them? I'm just saying.

I do think running would help the SF games, because it makes characters more mobile. They can run under a jumper, or straight into a character, not just away. But "no walls" would never work. Having no walls would increase "turtling" to an epidemic level. If you had more life than an opponent, then "no walls" would mean you could just run until time ran out. That is almost impossible when you have set stopping points for the board.

I just hope it's good. There are so many disappointing fighting games out there. I hope Capcom comes through.

[kkhohoho]

kkhohoho: If all the SF games before Third Impact were just "okay", but "not good" then why did everyone, including all KoF games, copy them? I'm just saying.

I do think running would help the SF games, because it makes characters more mobile. They can run under a jumper, or straight into a character, not just away. But "no walls" would never work. Having no walls would increase "turtling" to an epidemic level. If you had more life than an opponent, then "no walls" would mean you could just run until time ran out. That is almost impossible when you have set stopping points for the board.

I just hope it's good. There are so many disappointing fighting games out there. I hope Capcom comes through.

Well, this if a SF thread.  So I won't say anything more about SNK.  What I will say is that they shouldn't make the game a masher.  I didn't get any info saying it was going to be one, but from what I heard, SFVI has a mostly new development team.  They might take out what made SFIII's gameplay good (parrying, ex moves, combos aren't crazy, a decent amount of moves) and make it more akin to the VS series. I'm probably not alone in saying that that shouldn't happen.

[zuludelta]

But "no walls" would never work. Having no walls would increase "turtling" to an epidemic level. If you had more life than an opponent, then "no walls" would mean you could just run until time ran out. That is almost impossible when you have set stopping points for the board.

That was a huge problem with the first Tekken game (fixed in the next Tekken game by making it so that an attacking fighter always has more movement speed than a retreating fighter has moving backwards). Also, it would be difficult to do a visually appealing "no walls" stage in a 2d fighter because you'd end up with recurring backgrounds (what I like to call the "Filmation effect"). 3d fighters (like the first three Tekken games) got around this problem by incrementally rotating the fighting stage (and the camera along with it) to compensate for the fighters' backwards and forwards movement to give the illusion that there are no left or right boundaries, but this was eventually discarded in favour of actual walls.

[zuludelta]

A Brazilian site has hosted allegedly leaked pics of the game:

http://www.blogeek.com.br/?p=88

If real, I like how they've kept the cartoony/anime-ish look for the characters.

Take a peek before they get taken down or something. This actually seems to mesh with the official press release yesterday that stated that SF IV will use a combination of 2D and 3D elements (I'm guessing 3d models playing on a linear plane, and not an actual 3d fighter with an 8-way running scheme).

[zuludelta]

Looks like the Brazilian site that leaked the pics has been hit with a C&D order (which just confirms that the images are legit... of course, we only have the site's word that they're being threatened with legal action, they could just be blowing smoke up everybody's collective behind). No matter, here they are!

(sign in to see the spoiler link if it isn't showing up for you)

[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

It really looks like they're going for a 2.5D-fighter (as opposed to a strict 2D or 3D game). I'm pretty sure they won't mess too much with the proven success of fighting on what amounts to a 2D plane, but I like the depth provided by the 3D models and arenas.