Freedom Reborn

Howdy guys, it looks like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are getting a new, full color ongoing series thanks to IDW's quest to bring back any and every property from the 80's.  You can find a bit of information about it here:

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/05/19/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-new-comic-idw/

I'm more than a little excited about this.  I do hope we see something of a happy medium between the Archie series/original 'toon and the original books.  While I love those original stories, I like the wider, more mutant-filled, and more fantastic setting of the later Archie stories.  Plus, being the faithful child of the 80's that I am, I'll always own the original cartoon as my favorite version of the Green Machine.  Either way, I am really hopeful about this new book.  A great many of the series IDW is putting out are of a pretty solid quality.  I would love to have a monthly dose of Turtle action.  Sadly, it looks like they're sticking with the red bandannas, which I always thought were very silly.  Say what you will about the Fred Wolf cartoon, at least you could tell the Turtles apart at a glance.

Also, it would be fantastic if their access to the Archie books might end up with those unpublished stories finally seeing the light of day.

Looking forward to picking up this one later this week!  The first four issues are going to serve as a mini-series arc, chronicling Raphael's isolation and eventual restoration to his brothers.  Should be interesting to see how long this title runs.

Guys, I just wanted to necropost here to let you know that if you aren't reading IDW's TMNT book, you probably should be.  It's one of the better books being put out right now, and if you're a child of the 80's or have any love for the Turtles, you DEFINITELY need to be reading this book.  They're doing great things, and they are dong an awesome job of renovating and re-imagining good concepts that were done poorly in the classic cartoon and comics.

It's on my list. Previews have looked good.

If it can be as good as the original series and the b/w issues then I am so on this.

Quote from: Spe-Dog on September 14, 2012, 11:59:22 PM
If it can be as good as the original series and the b/w issues then I am so on this.

The original comics are something unto themselves, but this new book is really, really good.  It just drips promise!

I've got the first two trades, but haven't had time to put in much reading of them as yet.  So far I've just read the first issue-and-a-half or so, but what I have read I really liked, might be go so far as to say I loved. The art is fluid and dynamic, and the changes to the origin and major characters are intriguing and put a neat new spin on things; so in short it's everything a reboot/relaunch should be and what DC only wishes their rebooted origins were like (nyuk nyuk). I've been wanting to read a lot more of around the time the new show starts, so we'll see if I can fit in some more reading in the coming weeks.

This is my favorite comic series of 2012.

So I've now read the first three volumes and the microseries in trade form, and yeah, the new TMNT comic is awesome. I love what they've done with the series, mixing lots of old elements with newer ideas, and putting lots of nods to earlier iterations in there for older fans (the microseries was especially fond of this). There's also a "Legend of the Foot Clan" mini coming out soon, written by Eric Burnham of the Ghostbusters ongoing. I'm looking forward to that.

Yep, next to Larry Hama's G.I. JOE, this is the best series I'm reading right now...I'd venture to say, it's one of the best series being published right now.  They have every chance to do TMNT right, and they seem to be making all the right choices...what a stark contrast that paints with DC and Marvel!

Good to see that new artist Ben Bates has a sense of humor:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/Magazine%20Scans/IDWneutrinoVehicles-cropresized_zps28e6d3bc.jpg)

I hope those "War Vehicles" look familiar to you folks. :lol:

 with volume 4 now being released i can kinda keep up with the story. i'm only picking up the tpb

my one gripe is they really need to get a constant art style or even a bloody model sheet. volume 4 ends with the turtles facing slash but until he got his own mask the way he was drawn you would have said it was tokka instead.

I'm sorry to say I don't get the reference. [EDIT TO ADD: after looking closer at it, the vehicles seem to be taken from the original cartoon and toyline. I'm sad/proud to say I still have most of these in my basement] Also, as the Scans_daily community would say, Context is for the Weak.

I'm also trade-waiting. As a result, I passed on the Foot Clan mini as I found out parts of it take place in the present day, which meant there was a really good chance it'd spoil something or other from the stuff I haven't read yet. (sadly, the second Microseries sits on the shelf for now, along with a bunch of other trades and hardcovers I haven't been able to polish off. Yeah, I'm a little grotesquely behind. )

Incidentally, as with the Ghostbusters ongoing, I was surprised to see how little I elaborated on my thoughts on this book. So I'll say the one thing I've really wanted to say, that I am shocked I haven't said yet.

"Serious Krang", as I call him, is awesome. I love that this is a thing that exists. Now we just gotta see the guy in a live action Turtles movie (hopefully by not by Micheal Bay) and we're living the dream.

Speaking of Slash, without going into spoiler territory, how is he in this? Cool? While I like the character, I think I liked him better in the video games and toyline where he didn't talk, rather than the, ahem, "gifted" individual we got in the 80's cartoon.

Quote from: Silver Shocker on February 22, 2013, 09:33:21 PM


Speaking of Slash, without going into spoiler territory, how is he in this? Cool? While I like the character, I think I liked him better in the video games and toyline where he didn't talk, rather than the, ahem, "gifted" individual we got in the 80's cartoon.

I like Slash thus far.  He seems to have an almost Doomsday-Superman complex where he is compelled to seek out his turtle brethren to destroy them.  But he's clearly developmentally challenged and Leonardo was especially troubled to have had to "harm" him while defending his brothers.
Check out TMNT Entity for some good reviews of each issue:
http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2012/11/tmnt-idw-15.html

Haha, that is too awesome Winters!  I see the classic driller vehicles from the Technodrome, the...Sewer Racer, maybe?  I'm not sure what the drag racer's name was....I also see the Turtle Blimp's glider!  I also recognize a few others, though I can't place them.  See, this is one of the things I love about this comic.  It's obviously made by folks who have a great love for these characters, and who share a love for all of the silly bits of Turtle lore like these old toys.

TUE, I know what you mean.  I think their newest artist is a step in the right direction.  I hope that he'll stick around a bit.

Winters, I enjoyed this version of Slash as well.  I REALLY enjoyed the conflict Leo underwent as part of that tale.  I thought that was really good stuff.

Yeah, I love "Serious Krang."  He's quite awesome.  He's basically the terrifying alien warlord that the Archie comics hinted at and almost delivered, but with a much cooler look and the wherewithal to actually kick some backside.

My goodness, I just read up to #21 of the main series and the Secret History of the Foot mini, and I am still absolutely loving this book.  The main book was great fun, though I felt like Krang's army might should have done a bit more damage.  Still, this arc with Krang was fantastic, and it really evoked the classic TMNT adventures in space from the original comic, right down to several iconic moments.  I'd have liked to have seen the Neutrinos get a bit more development, but the changes to their characters were CERTAINLY for the best.  Better a tad plain than horribly, painfully annoying.  I love all of the references and Easter eggs in this series.  The art in this latest arc was, I think, some of the best we've seen so far.  I also loved the interactions between the Fugitoid and Donatello.  All-in-all, this was great.

Even better, however, was the Foot mini.  This was incredible.  I loved the story, the skeins of fate twisting throughout, and the art was perfect.  This really develops Shredder well, and I am totally onboard to learn more about these characters.

Yeah I've read the first three trades now and I'm liking the series. I think there's another two or three out now so I'll grab those with my next amazon order.

I was really impressed with the redesigns for Shredder and Karai in the second trade, very very cool. I also like Old Hob and Alopex.

Cool, I hope you'll let us know what you think, Pod!  Yeah, I think the redesigns are universally really nice.  Hob has some potential.  I'm rather hoping he'll go in a bit of a Verminator X direction.

The one thing I'm kind of iffy about is the mystical/resurrection and how quickly the Turtles seem to have bonded. If I remember correctly they've only been mutated for a month or so at the beginning of the story yet they act like they've known each other for years, especially Raphael who they've technically never met (in his sentient mutated form). The backstory makes that kind of work but like I said I'm iffy on it. I don't hate it, just not sure of it just yet.

But that aside it's been a good read as far as I've gone.

I was extremely doubtful about that aspect of the story at first, Podmark.  I was actually ready to drop the book when they finally did the reveal about their origins.  That caught my interest enough that I hung around, and I have never been sorry I did.  I think they've really expanded on that origin in the various mini-series and in the main book to the point that, honestly, it's become my favorite origin for the Turtles.

In case y'all haven't already heard, the sixth issue of the Villains Micro-Series will spotlight Hun (created for the 4Kids cartoon as the liaison between Shredder & the Purple Dragon gang).  Hun will also factor in the later issues of the current City Fall arc:
http://www.tmnt-ninjaturtles.com/blog/2013/06/tmnt-villain-micro-series-6-hun-idw/
http://www.tmnt-ninjaturtles.com/blog/2013/07/tmnt-27-idw/.

And there a couple of weird looking mutant characters who will be starring in the 7th issue of the Villains Micro-Series.  Maybe some folks might remember them...

Spoiler

http://www.tmnt-ninjaturtles.com/blog/2013/07/tmnt-villain-micro-series-7-bebop-rocksteady-idw/

Ohh man!  That is what I've been waiting for!  That is too awesome!  Great news, Winters. :D  I couldn't care less about Hun, never really having been a fan of that newer series, but these mutated miscreants hold a special place in my heart!

San Diego Comic Con panel update on the very near future of TMNT comics!
http://www.comicvine.com/articles/sdcc-2013-tmnt-panel/1100-146882/

In an alternate TMNT multi-verse...

2k3 Casey Jones to Hun: "You KILLED my father!"

IDW Hun to Casey: No. . . 

Spoiler

"I AM your father."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfh4Mhp-a6U

http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2013/09/tmnt-villains-micro-series-6-hun.html

That....is interesting...wow.  That's got potential.  I can't wait to get my books!

damn i hate being the guy who is only reading the trades, i'm so far behind

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on September 13, 2013, 07:29:20 PM
damn i hate being the guy who is only reading the trades, i'm so far behind

Yeah me too. Looks like some good reading ahead.

And don't forget--Bebop & Rocksteady's Micro issue is coming next month! :lol:

The long-awaited Bebop & Rocksteady Micro-Issue came out last Wednesday.  Here's my favorite lol-worthy moment:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/Magazine%20Scans/IDWmicroBampR-rhinosaurus_zpscbc6135d.jpg) (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/slimer2erasmus/media/Magazine%20Scans/IDWmicroBampR-rhinosaurus_zpscbc6135d.jpg.html)

Seriously, it's one of the funnest issues of a TMNT-related comic I've ever read.  Ben Bates provides some stellar artwork and the colors are a wonder to behold.  Here's a solid review of it:
http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2013/10/tmnt-villains-micro-series-7-bebop.html

Still great to date, including the Ultrom series. Not my number #1 slot anymore which has been occupied by Aphrodite IX but still in my top five and every issue looked fore ward to.

As long as we're talking Turtles, I should mention I recently read a few volumes of the series (Microseries v. 2, Sins of the Father, Krang War, and Secret History of the Foot Clan). Yes, I fell really far behind once again. Krang War was surprisingly my favorite. I would say the second microseries was my least favorite, though it was not without merit and it was important to the main plot (though the relevant points are made clear in the book itself). I've still got to read the newest volumes, no idea when I'll get to them.

Bullet points:

-I wasn't sure I was looking forward to a redo of the "Turtles in Space" arc, but I really dug it.
-Once again, "Serious Krang" is awesome.
-I thoroughly enjoyed the way the art portrayed motion and action during the fight(s) involving Krang. While the art for this TMNT series can get a bit cartoony or funky (depending on the artist) they're usually great at dynamic action. 
-While I knew what to expect from his art from covers to future issues, I'm not crazy about Mateus Santolouco's art (he drew History of the Foot Clan). While his human figures look good IMO his turtles look downright ugly (particularly Mikey, who looks, and you'll have to pardon the crude imagery, like a deformed fetus). I think I've been spoiled by the turtles looking good and on-model in the various cartoons, games and better live action efforts (though the Out of the Shadows game and the new movie are making up for lost time on that front), so this is a bit of a negative for me.

Spoiler

One thing I must admit was better than the original comics or 2k3 cartoon was that while the Turtles were in space, the entire book wasn't stuck there the whole time. There were subplots still going on back at setting up, I assume, Cityfall. That was a really nice touch that kept the momentum going. Also I was always hoping that History of the Foot Clan would find a way to be relevant to the main book and not be a throwaway, and it did and for that I'm grateful.

City Fall is great, if your not there yet get a good bag of snacks and sit back when you do. If you loved Krang War your going to love Utrom Empire too.

Today's release of the TMNT 30th Anniversary special was quite a treat (even at a painful $7.99 cover price).  It featured a historical overview of the major TMNT comic universes and all new stories in the Mirage Volume 1 (reprint of a once-published short story), Archie TMNT Adventures, Image 'Volume 3," Mirage "Volume 4," and IDW verses all drawn by their respective artists.

Sounds cool. I must have forgot that was even coming out. I may have to get that at some point. I should mention that while I never actually read Vol. 4 of the Mirage run I loved the developments that were going on in it. So many bold changes and story twists (the one with "Kirby" is especially ballsy and made for a bloody brilliant nod in the new cartoon). It's too bad the thing never got a proper ending.

^^ This week I actually started City Fall vol. 1, and I'm amused to say I literally read it on the couch with a bowl of snacks. I only read the first issue and the first few pages of the second though (and am slightly vexed to learn that the trades skipped the annual), it's pretty good so far.

Also, as I've said in the IDW/Dark Horse/Misc. comic thread, IDW is doing a 4 issue mini series of Ghostbusters/TMNT starting in October. Pretty cool. I don't know yet if it has anything to do with the plot of the current TMNT comic but time will tell.

I'll add more precise comments later on, but I just wanted to say two things:  First, I'm still absolutely loving these books, and every new twist and turn is utterly delightful.  If you're not reading this TMNT book, you need to be.

Second, a new story in the Archi-Turtles-verse?  Ohh man, sign me up!  I hope my LCS ordered that book for me!

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 25, 2014, 06:02:13 PM
If you're not reading this TMNT book, you need to be.

Cosigned.

Good freaking heavens!  I finally got my big box o' comics from my store (they ship when I get to $80 worth of books, so it takes a long time!), and these latest TMNT issues are just darn fantastic.  Every book I read blows me away.  Here are a few random thoughts:

Spoiler

Utrom Empire:  Holy smokes, I love the clandestine war of wills they're setting up between Fugitoid and Stockman.  I'm hopeful that we'll eventually see Stockman become the Fly, but I like the homage they've got going on with his Flyborgs.  They've managed to turn him into a really interesting character, and the same is true for Fugitoid.  They've completely surpassed the original books in terms of his characterization.

Serious Krang is awesome, as others have said!  I LOVE the '"man" driven to save his people' angle.  There's a LOT of family themes, and father/son relationships in this book.  There's a very interesting paper in there somewhere.

I was a little disappointed that this incredible cover didn't have more of a bearing on what went on inside the book:
http://majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/TMNT_UE_03-1.jpg
But that's just because it was so cool that I wanted to know about that rag-tag bunch of characters.

#31: I LOVE that they haven't just hand-waved away the aftereffects of Leo's brainwashing.  I'm impressed that they have really focused on and worked through the damage that the character took, psychologically.  This whole episode is an excellent example of the quality of these books.  They constantly impress me with the maturity (in the true sense) of their treatment of inherently goofy and fantastic concepts.  There is still plenty of joy and humor and fun, but they also are constantly elevating their material and never 'talk down' to their audience. 

Koya is awesome!  A hawk as an assassin is a great fit.

April's new haircut looks a bit odd the way they're drawing it.

#32: A good issue, tons of action, but the climax with Mikey and the bike was one of my favorite moments from this entire series.  It totally made my day when I read it!

I'd assume that April's mom would be a bit more disturbed about her leaving with a van full of mutants, but perhaps she's just in shock.  I'd have liked a line of dialog to that effect, as she seemed to accept it entirely too easily.  That's really my one nit to pick with this series, people tend to accept the mutants way too easily.  'Ohh, you're a giant talking mutant turtle?  Cool, let's get a hotdog.'

The ending with April's dad was really quite touching  I enjoyed her whole crisis of conscience over who to use the ooze on.  They've really made April a cool character too.

#33: Once again with the father/son tensions and relationships.  That was a cool exchange between Casey and Hun.  It makes sense that, despite everything that has happened, Casey can't just stop caring about his father altogether.

I've got four more books to catch up on, and I am so happy to be reading awesome TMNT books!

I haven't been reading TMNT, but comixology just had a huge sale, 22 bucks for 26 issues! So I'm gonna try and get caught up.

Do it man!  You will NOT be disappointed! :D

I'm already 7 issues in,  this series is great! It's a nice fresh start too.
The issue when Splinter gave them their colors was really touching, and I love how they've set up a probable reason for Raph's anger issues.

Awesome!  I'm really happy you're enjoying the books, DM! :)  Yeah, the bandanna issue really got to me.  It just so perfectly evoked the best elements of TMNT that it was simultaneously moving, new, and familiar.  You're in luck, man, as they just get better from there.  I LOVE the new take on the Turtles' origins and the added mystical elements to this series.  They've, in relatively few issues, created an amazingly lively, deep, and varied universe to play in. 

Ohh, be sure to read the micro-series too!  They often have some of the best stories!

Everything Benton said DM. Most of the micros will be essential reading as well later in the series. The two that really aren't are the event issues (Infestation 2 and X-Files Conspiracy). Though the issue that pulled in most readers and also got a lot of acclaim was that Infestation 2 1-shot so take that with a grain of salt. For my money all the IDW events were well worth the read, being Infestation, Infestation 2 and X-Files Conspiracy as were the C.V.O. character related books that the first two centered around. City Fall is still my favorite IDW TMNT arc to date though I have no doubts they'll raise the bar.

Been reading a few more of the trades recently. Still great stuff, definitely a strong contender for the best version of the TMNT.

Spoiler

I finished the first villains micro and I was really moved by a set of pages in the Old Hob story. I'm a cat owner and seeing Hob go from happy feline living with a boy to being thrown out by a mean parent was heartbreaking. Really made me feel for Hob.
I also really liked the Alopex story, that was definitely a character that needed some fleshing out.

This series really is doing great things with the villains. Almost all of them are improvements on past versions, and the new ones are very interesting as well. The only one I'm not big on so far is Slash, from what I've read he's just a big monster. Also very curious to see how they handle Beebop, Rocksteady and Hun, but I haven't gotten that far yet (Ironically I can say the exact same for the third season of the Nik show).

The artists have also done a very good job. I remember reading the old Angel comics from IDW and the artist there were pretty weak, but so far I've liked almost everyone who's worked on TMNT (excepting Eastman himself). Mateus Santolouco, and Ross Campbell have impressed me, and Dan Duncan's designs for the Karai and Shredder were awesome.

I couldn't agree more, Pod.  I don't think any of the other comics have managed to be as good as consistently as this series.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, man.  That broke my heart.  They really turned Hob around from a character I was completely disinterested in to one that now seems really worthwhile.

I felt the same way about Slash, but I think recent events are going to address that.

Yeah, the art has gone from mediocre in the beginning to down-right great towards the exile storyline.

Quote from: BentonGrey on October 19, 2014, 12:02:15 AM
They really turned Hob around from a character I was completely disinterested in to one that now seems really worthwhile.

Oh I always liked Hob. He's a great gang-type adversary. But his one shot really added something to the character.

Just read TMNT-GB #1. SoooOO good! Nick needs to get the GB rights and adapt this into an animated special!

I visited my LCS on Friday because of what happen in TMNT #44 (no spoilers, just google it) and he told me that these turtles are different from the ones in the 80's.  He pretty much told me their history and I bought the TPB and it is really good, very different, but good.

Im still stuck in the City Fall arc...
But everything before was really awesome.

THAT MUTANIMALS #3! SLASH IS AWESOME!

Keep going Spade!  I really like the slow, contemplative arc that follows that, and then there are some truly excellent mini-series as well!

I'm catching up, reading through my backlog, and I'm really enjoying everything.  I'm up to #43, with the Turtles on Burnow Island, and I think this book is still firing on all cylinders! 

I recently read the trade for Attack on Technodrome, and it thought it was awesome.

Spoiler

I'd already heard about Donatello's "death" (we'll see), but the actual events were intense and brutal. Bebob and Rocksteady are beasts in this series.

Loved seeing Stockman acting out on his own in this volume. I've always liked how competent and non-comedic he is in this iteration. I also loved the Flyborgs. What a great idea from the guys who do justice to nearly all corners of this franchise.

I also recently read the 2014 annual (the annuals, which are done by Kevin Eastman, are a serious step down from the other books. They're quite dry and slog to get through) and it features what I think is the first nod to the 2012 Nicktoons cartoon - a character using the turtles catchphrase of "Booyakasha".

Yeah, I just read issue #44.  Wow. 

Spoiler

Donnie's death...well, I hope it doesn't last, because you just can't do the Turtles without all four!  Still, that was a powerful sequence and a powerful reveal. 

I agree about how impressive Stockman is as a villain.  They've really made him interesting and likeable, in a villainous way.  I hope we'll get to see him transformed into The Fly, eventually, but for the moment, I'm really enjoying what they're doing with him.

Shredder vs. Krang was cool, but I feel like Shredder went down a bit too easily.

SS, you're right, Bebop and Rocksteady are BEASTS.  They are awesome, always entertaining, and really intimidating. 

This series continues to be awesome!  As I've said before, every month I'm getting some of the best comics I've ever read, with TMNT, G.I. JOE, and Astro City!

I cried. Still right in #2 slot for comics every month. April/Casey solo was not the usual offering, more of an interpersonal and character development issue than your standard action one but a riveting and strong read nonetheless and worth the dime dropped imo. On a " not TMNT " but IDW and as interested parties are present I also picked GB Get Real and it was totally worth my time. Granted I still haven't read the run proper, only the event tie-ins, all the mini's and 1-shots that happened before the ongoing and TMNT crossover so maybe I'm not the best judge but as a longtime fan of both the film franchise and the Real GB animated series I was impressed by that title.

Hooboy, that IDW #50.  It was double-sized and double-priced but I think it was worth it as a conclusion to this incarnation's original story arc.

And we got a very surprising reveal on the last page that suggests there may be more mad science play in the Turtles' "reincarnation" than supernatural sorcery.

It easily get's my vote for comic book of the month. Just wow.

Quote from: oldmanwinters on October 08, 2015, 02:29:20 PM
Hooboy, that IDW #50.  It was double-sized and double-priced but I think it was worth it as a conclusion to this incarnation's original story arc.

And we got a very surprising reveal on the last page that suggests there may be more mad science play in the Turtles' "reincarnation" than supernatural sorcery.

Glad to hear it turned out great, but not surprised as the main series is pretty consistently awesome. No unmarked spoilers, please, I'm reading from the trades.

I'm currently reading Mutanimals. Just over halfway through it. Definitely my least favorite IDW Turtles comic (with the possible exception of the Kevin Eastman Annuals). The story feels pretty superfluous and the art's a little weak. I know the Mutantimals team/concept stretches back to earlier comics runs but I just don't feel like this group of characters is interesting enough to warrant their own miniseries. If plot points in this come up later in the main book or other minis I will give it credit for that though.

After #50,the comic is really digging into 2003 version.  :)
Darius Dun,Street Phantoms and now

Spoiler

AGENT BISHOP:

I hope Dark Turtles show up.  :)

This is really a good book.  Slash is awesome.  I hope to see more of him later on.

So guess what the next Turtles mini will be? Bebob And Rocksteady in a time-travelling caper!

Brilliant.

Gotta love the IDW Turtles.

Alright!  That is an awesome, fun idea.  :D

I have read the Bebob And Rocksteady destroy everything. It was insane and fun.

Spoiler

They seemed to imply that Time Lords such as Renet and Savanti Romero are the same characters in all TMNT iterations....which would be an interesting idea, except if memory serves, neither character acts that way in any prior appearances in the franchise. I would write it off as me reading too much into it, but they made a point of having the comic open with Savanti fighting the original Mirage comics TMNT, red bandannas and all.

In other Turtles news:

There's a crossover between the Nicktoons Animated TMNT and Batman TAS. Pretty neat idea.

First issue of Batman/TMNT adventures was okay.Thou,Im not sure why they chose BTAS,its unlikely that kids watching 2012 turtles are familiar with it.Also,"Yo,mama" jokes?Again?

Book is still my most looked forward to every month. I'm also 100% addicted to the new IDW Hasbro line (Revolution) which says a lot for a line that just kicked in. Even that Rom book is great!

I just got a big batch of comics in the mail, and I can't wait to read the TMNT books!  I'm way behind!

Also, I have GOT to get my hands on that Bebop and Rocksteady series!

I definitely recommend experiencing the Bebop & Rocksteady Destroy Everything mini-series in TPB format!  It's the kind of story that will have you scratching your head and flipping back and forth through the pages. 

Plus, it also borrows from classic Mirage TMNT comic canon in a surprising way!

So we got Wyrm.Okay.
Btw,one thing I noticed IDW continuity does different then all the others is: No Superheroes.And honestly,its all the better for it.

Quote from: Spade on February 07, 2017, 06:24:26 AM
So we got Wyrm.Okay.
Btw,one thing I noticed IDW continuity does different then all the others is: No Superheroes.And honestly,its all the better for it.

Aren't the Turtles themselves more or less Superheroes when you get down to it?

Quote from: oldmanwinters on January 02, 2017, 03:41:12 AM
I definitely recommend experiencing the Bebop & Rocksteady Destroy Everything mini-series in TPB format!  It's the kind of story that will have you scratching your head and flipping back and forth through the pages. 

I would definitely second that.  I certainly felt that way reading it. It's fun (how can it not be with that title and premise?) but it's the kind of story I'd rather not scrutinize because (a) it takes the fun out of it and fun is definitely what they were going for and b) I'm not entirely convinced the time travel elements make sense.

Quote from: kkhohoho on February 07, 2017, 06:31:45 AM

Quote from: Spade on February 07, 2017, 06:24:26 AM
So we got Wyrm.Okay.
Btw,one thing I noticed IDW continuity does different then all the others is: No Superheroes.And honestly,its all the better for it.

Aren't the Turtles themselves more or less Superheroes when you get down to it?

Yeah, I've thought of the TMNT as superheroes as least since the 2003 series. Also, I'd say Nobody counts as a superhero. wears a costume, fights crime, has a superhero name.

Personally I really enjoyed the superhero stuff in the 2k3 series so I honestly wouldn't mind if IDW did more with them. Considering their run draws from the mirage comics, 87 cartoon and aforementioned 2k3 cartoon so heavily (I've even found at least one reference to the Nicktoons show) not drawing from that well seems a bit odd an omission. On the other hand, the plots of the IDW are so corset-tight that adding in superhero characters and not having them show up for every major conflict ever would immediately draw attention to it. As much as I enjoyed how the 2K3 series drew from that extended cast when appropriate, there was a heavy sense of "If x, why aren't the Justice Force doing y?" What would you call the JF's appearance during the Triceraton invasion , if not jobbing so the Turtles can save the day?

Depends on the continuity.Mirage Turtles are a ninja clan first,they just happen to know a lot of superheroes.They dont go on patrols or rescue the city on a daily basis.Original cartoon turtles are superheroes.They are even refered to as such on several occasions.2003 and 2012 version mix the two styles.In different quantities.
Personaly,I dont mind the existence of superheroes,but it does make the Turtles less unique.And IDW already has too much characters for 2 monthly titles.

I'd say no. They aren't defined as "capes" at least and came into the industry as an independent. More "action hero" defined then "super", like one would see Link, Ash or Snake. And I agree it's better for it as well, it adds that unique flavor. Also totally happy to see the franchise succeeding to the point of spawning more titles. I'd rather read another Turtles book than another...well I'll be polite but you know where it's going. Destroy Everything was awesome BTW, delivered all that and so much more.

They aren't necessarily superheroes, but they are superhero adjacent. 

The TMNT scholar Mark Pellegrini explained it best,I think. http://tmntentity.blogspot.ba/ (http://tmntentity.blogspot.ba/)
From his reviews of Vol. 1 #15 and #52:

QuoteEastman and Laird made it a point to illustrate that the Turtles live in a world already populated by superheroes and general comic book weirdness fairly early on, with characters like Complete Carnage and Radical, etc. Probably a good idea, as the Turtles so frequently encounter aliens, monsters, super villains and other miscellaneous insanity that there's just gotta be this sort of stuff waiting around every corner for their world to make any sense.

In a way, it makes the Turtles seem a little less unique, as how can they be freaks and outcasts in a world where robot midgets and rock-men can make lucrative licensing deals and be accepted as heroes by the general populace? It actually seems counter-intuitive to Laird's own personal insistence of reducing mutant animals in the franchise offshoots he has a hand in because it "makes the Turtles less unique". So bizarre superheroes are okay in abundance, but not mutant animals? Okay, sure, whatever.

I don't hate the presence of superheroes in Turtle comics; Nobody is a favorite recurring character of mine and I adored most of the Image series, which had a ton of superheroes in it. The issue I take with "Dome Doom" is more that it overloads the audience with the fact that "oh by the way there's a retired team of superheroes operating out of Northampton who license their likenesses out to media outlets to maintain luxurious lifestyles but nobody ever talks about them because meh". Nothing would really be done with the idea of a substantial superhero population in the Mirage TMNT universe until the Image series, and after that got retconned out of continuity, the Volume 4 series (which had several interesting ideas as well as a decent use of the Justice Force characters).

QuoteAs for the Turtles, I was amused by Raph's statement that fighting street crime isn't their responsibility; that the only thing that matters to the Turtles is taking down the Foot.  It's a great spotlight on what differentiates the Mirage TMNT from their cartoon and more mainstream counterparts.  The original Mirage TMNT weren't created to be superheroes.  They don't go on patrol like Batman and fight crime.  Sure, they'll get involved if they're in close proximity to danger because they have functioning moral compasses, but they aren't "guardians" of truth and justice.  They're ninja.  They're assassins.  And they're at war with a rival ninja clan.  Any other adventures they partake in are either out of accident or boredom.

Obviously, that doesn't paint them in a very marketable light and, yeah, I don't think we've ever seen the Mirage Turtles walk away from helping someone in mortal danger.  But Raph's dialogue still underscores one of the fundamental differences between the Mirage TMNT and the, well, more marketable cartoon and kid-comic incarnations.  They're a warring ninja clan first and "superheroes" second.  If at all.

Heads up, four part Karai spotlight incoming this week!
http://comics.gocollect.com/priceguide/view/973300 (http://comics.gocollect.com/priceguide/view/973300)

Stump and Galactic wrestling are back.I did not expect that. :thumbup:
Universe harkens all the way back to Secret History of the Foot clan.I guess Koya is this universes version of the blind Foot elite with a grudge against Leo.Broadly speaking.We still dont reall know anything about Bludgeon.He looks and acts as some surfing/zen guru,I guess.

Stump Wrestling, really?  That is too awesome!  I can't wait!

Quote from: BentonGrey on August 19, 2017, 09:09:15 PM
Stump Wrestling, really?  That is too awesome!  I can't wait!

I thought the first two issues of the Dimension X mini-series were fun but forgettable adventures.  Haven't got around to issue #3, but I will be curious to see how this whole series bridges the gap between ongoing #73-74.

So I just finished the new volume of the trade with Agent Bishop vs. The Mighty Mutantanimals. Oh boy was that ever a good one. There's few volumes of this run of TMNT I enjoyed as much as that.

Bishop was the man in that one. I officially declare IDW Bishop best Bishop because IDW Turtles is best Turtles. They even got a little homage into Bishop's Hong Kong style martial arts fights from the 2003 series. NICE!

On that note:

Spoiler

I really enjoyed seeing the dynamic between Bishop and his father. It added a layer of humanity to a character who's incredibly cool, but pretty hard to actually sympathize with (This is the guy who, in 2003, advocated mass murder of civilians because at least it'd kill those pesky aliens living among us) of course, the payoff is that he ruthlessly murdered his own father during a fight, because he's just a ruthless jerkbag. And he gets his to a degree, and I'll touch on that in a bit.

The reveal of him being at least part machine is a interesting one. I think of it a nice middle ground between the Nicktoon versions incredibly lazy "He's just a regular old Kraang/Utron but this one has sunglasses!" and the 2003 show's idea of a man who gained superpowers because of an alien encounter (and I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they thought up the "didn't this guy just die" moment and then made up the backstory later) but it's an interesting moment just because the characters barely react to it because it's just like "well of course he replaced his body with a robot body and/or robot parts because he's just that devoted and insane."

But on another note, and I alluded to this earlier, Am I the only one who thinks IDW TMNT is burning through some of the villains a little too fast? I know the series has built up this massive cast of characters who are always involved in the plot in some way,
and this rich, multi-layered ongoing storyline, but in the previous arc we've had Darius Dunn "Done in" and now Bishop's "disarmed". Now he didn't die, but his humbling defeat was just a little too quick for my tastes.

Speaking of that Darius Dun story, without spoilers for future arcs, am I the only one who got a "Splinter's going evil" vibe? Because that's a story I could totally see play and I'd enjoy seeing that.

On a related note, a sequel to the Batman/TMNT Crossover Scott Snyder, James Tynion and Freddie Williams did was just announced. Same creative team, Bane will be the villain. Neat.

Well,not everyone can be Shredder or Baxter.Some villains will only last an arc.And it invented some new villains.
Dimension X was okay,but it comes off as something of showcase for writers and artists.Sittersons(we probably wont see him again) Ace Duck issue might have been the biggest surprise.
On the subject of a lot of characters for one series,thats why we have Universe.Karai arc has been pretty cool so far,even if the yakuza family dynamics are a bit cliche.

Over in the "Best Comic of 2020" thread, the topic ended up moving to TMNT, so I'd opted to continue here in the proper thread.

I've started reading the first issue or so of TMNT/Power Rangers. It's quite neat, but as an iteration of the TMNT franchise, it's quite odd and unusual and very much its own thing. It's very much it's own continuity wholly separate from the main IDW comics run, similar to what the Batman/TMNT crossovers did over time, but even moreso by a lot. It throws elements from more than one prior version of TMNT into a blender and creates an odd kind of mishmash, similar to the main IDW run but somehow even more, pivoting more heavily toward late 80's/early 90s nostalgic (because of course it does, this is the Nick/Paramount era of the franchise of course  :rolleyes:) Not sure if I like how they've handled it but it certainly keeps things interesting. It almost feels like this book is designed PURPOSELY to be adapted into a standalone animated movie like the Batman TMNT one. On that note, I'm actually surprised they've not bothered to journey into the realm of animation with Power Rangers. You'd think that would be a no brainer and they could get mirage out of it, but I guess part of the appeal of Japanese sentai shows is supposed to be the live action stuntwork and costumes, plus the animated equivalent of a sentai show would be a mecha cartoon like Voltron. And yet, the massive nostalgia revival of this specific IP, and once again, the laser focus on the "Mighty Morphing" era (with Lord Zedd, Tommy ect) would indicate that these specific characters and designs hold a nostalgic fondness for those my age (and I'm hardly innocent in that regard myself)

Spoilers as to how this iteration of the TMNT franchise's continuity/status quo is handled:

Spoiler

April is a reporter, there's an unamed character that would seem to be Vernon, Irma is namedropped, some G1 TMNT iconography, naturally can be seen in the TMNT's lair, and naturally Donnie is trying to impress fellow geek Billy by bringing up that he has a robot of his own, Metalhead. This, by itself, seems to be a pretty overt reference to the Fred Wolfe era, as Metal Head was very much a villain on the loose in the main IDW comic run, and the 2003 cartoon iteration was an enemy robot built by Stockman called the "Turtlebot", since "Metalhead" was the name of a member of the Justice Force.

Most curious for me is how Shredder and Karai are depicted in this comic. The two of them together represent a truly unique mishmash. Karai's visual design is undeniably modelled after her design from the 2003 cartoon, with the exact same hair and wardrobe. This of course made me quite amused, was one of the first things I learned about this comic, as I saw her design on the TMNT wiki, and made me look forward to getting and reading the trade of this book. She's also loyal to the Shredder, though I don't think her particular relationship to him has been clarified yet. In both the 2003 and 2012 cartoons, she was the Shredder's adopted daughter, in the IDW comics she is his granddaughter, and in several other iterations she seems to simply be a foot ninja who is loyal to him. Rise of the TMNT, in its single best plot element IMO, had Karai appeared in the very last arc of the show as an member of Splinter and the Turtles's own Hamato clan, presented 100% as a good guy.

Shredder himself appears to largely designed to look after the version from the Fred Wolfe cartoon, and Shredder and Karai are hanging out in the Technodrome, which is, of course, located underground. This is such a surreal scenario for me I can barely process it. The Technodrome, IIRC hasn't been Shredder's base since the Fred Wolfe cartoon.  Later iterations has always associated with Krang ever since, with Krang and his species being a sperate group of antagonists from Shredder. Even the series that featured an incarnation of the Shredder who was the same species as Krang, didn't have him hanging out in the Technodrome. Lastly, the part that makes this the most surreal and unique for me -- the only time Karai has ever had a chance to be there in any iteration I'm familiar with is Turtles Forever, during the memorable and amusing sequence where she sneaks into the Fred Wolfe version of the Technodrome (which this version is, of course, directly based on), curb stomps the FW versions of Shredder and Krang, and takes over the whole operation in service to her own master while deriding the robot foot soldiers as "cartoonish". Perhaps this decision was made to highlight a similar dynamic between the group of villains from the TMNT half of this with the villains from Power Rangers, who would often be shown plotting and bickering from the safety of their own hidden base. Makes about as much sense as anything else.

Another notable distinction is that unlike the Batman/TMNT comic and The Power Rangers/Justice League comic (which I made a point to start reading recently because of this crossover with TMNT), they don't go through a portal, but, as in early 90's crossover comics (appropriate?) and the Batman/TMNT animated movie (again, a deliberate attempt at an "evergreen" template for cross media purposes?) they simply coexist in the same world, with Donnie being fan of the Rangers as local superheroes and thus is depicted as if he's a fan of Power Rangers franchise. Speaking of this, Donnie spouts an inspired crack at the property that I somehow don't recall ever stopping to think about - - how does the Green/Gold Ranger blow into a flute to play music while he has his faceplate up?  :o

Looking forward to reading some more of this inspired lunacy to see just how much more insane this bizarre mishmash turns out to be.

In general, the dialogue and back and forth between the two heroic groups is cute and fun (I mean, that's sorta the appeal of these kind of crossovers in the first place, isn't it?) and the art, which as I understand it comes from the Power Rangers corner of comics, has that kind of funky but dynamic energy you'd expect from the IDW TMNT comics where the fight scenes and movement looks really good, but the human or humanoid figures look a bit odd and the turtles themselves look ugly as sin.

I'm not nearly as into Power Rangers, so I can't really comment on that half of the comic other than to say that fans of the "Mighty Morphing" era would probably have fun with this. I grew right out of PR as soon as that era ended, and I haven't been able to get back into the main tv show version of it ever since. I recently put on the first few minutes of the first episode of it on Netflix and I don't think I'll be able to watch it because of how overwhelming cheesy, dated and kid-focused it is.

More TMNT related stuff. Not specifically the comic, but relates to it.

The Netflix licensing deal for Power Rangers is ending this month, and going with it is the infamous 90's live action series Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation, best known for the original female fifth turtles Venus.
I tried watching the first episode of Power Rangers while doing some other things, as I thought it would be neat to revisit since I started reading the PR/TMNT crossover comic, but I found it too childish and cheezy to get very far. So I switched to NM.
It's.....interesting. It's the first time I've seen it since I was a kid, when it first aired.

In some regards, it is indeed terrible. The dialogue is cheesy and childish even for TMNT, the costuming is below par, the show is full of goofy sound effects added in for no good reason and in some cases the acting (specifically Shredder, Splinter and any nameless Foot Soldiers/Rank Soldiers) is atrocious.

Specifically, Shredder, in his brief appearances, looks and sounds terrible. However, his defeat at the beginning of the series posits an interesting concept that would be neat to explore in a future iteration - that The Shredder is a more evil split personality of Oroku Saki's.

The show in general can be described using one of my favorite descriptive phrases - "conceptually interesting".

Dragonlord is not an inherently bad villain, but was disliked by the fandom for replacing Shredder (I seem to recall as a kid I didn't care for him for this reason). His minion, Wick, is kinda fun but is a little too manic and some of his dialogue is pretty bad.

On the other hand, it does a feature a hammy live action performance by legendary Vancouver voice actor Scott McNeil as one of the recurring villains.

The other villain I thought was conceptually interesting was Vam-Mi, a melodramatic female Chinese vampire who was a kind of foil for Venus. I could definitely see Venus and some of the original villains in this show being brought into the IDW comics and used well (as Jammerhead and Darius Dunn are), but apparently there are rights issues with this show.

But of course, the thing everyone remembers the show for is Venus, and part of the fun is revisiting the show in light of the new fifth turtle in the comics.

I've come to the conclusion, after the first five episodes, that while Jennika is the better character, Venus is the better fifth turtle.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my problem with Jenny as the 5th turtle is she doesn't have that comedic energy a Ninja Turtle should have and doesn't have that character dynamics with the other major characters a Ninja Turtle should have. But Venus actually does. As a magic user, her science vs. magic debates with Donnie are a highlight (as has been the case elsewhere, Donnie is best Turtle)

Yes, most of the humor coming from her is bad, consisting mainly of broken English (the character was raised in China), with an accented voice and bungling of slang and common phrases, with the other Turtles correcting her. But ALL of the humor in the show is bad, so it's not her fault specifically. The main problem I have with her is her main character trait (bungling the phrases) only happens half the time, and the other half she's saying the same dopey phrases the other Turtles would say, as if someone swapped her dialogue with Mikey's. 

Overall, the big question for me is, do I think this show is better than the awful unfunny kid-centric comedy Rise of the TMNT? Actually, yes, surprisingly. The humor's probably worse, and the production values and acting are definitely worse (Rise was a very well animated and well voiced show - it's just the writing was dreadful), but the actual overall story and original villains are better, and that's what I prefer about it. With just a few simple tweaks ("be less cheesy") it'd be a pretty good TMNT show, actually.

There is however, at least one genuinely great joke in the show: when the TMNT leave in their Turtle Jeep (yes really, a Jeep) and Raph with his motorcycle, Splinter complains about them being too noisy and says "Next they're going to want a helicopter, or maybe a tank." See, THAT'S actually a clever reference to the overall franchise. I like that a lot!  :D

One funny piece of trivia is at the opening story arc Donnie uses a radar to track each of the main good guys, with Splinting coded as yellow, the color used for Jennika in the new comics.

Looking further into the trivia for the show reveals lots of interesting tidbits:

-At one point the show was going to be not a sorta-continuation of the live action movies, but of the 89 cartoon. Interesting.
-There was originally going to be a fourth live action movie with a fifth turtle named Kirby (of course) and this character was going to be repurposed for this show, but Saban wanted a female Turtle, so Venus was created.
-Leo was going to have yellow at one stage, so that Venus could use light blue. Bizarre.
-Also at one point Venus was in fact going to use pink. Funny, I always thought that was an awful idea, so I was fine with light blue, yellow, white or black.
-The second season would have been animated and would have had April and Casey Jones. That actually sounds really cool. I would have liked to have seen that.
-Splinter would have died in the second season.

So I caught up with the ongoing. What a tease...we get Tokka and Rahzar breaking free...and we switch to Jennika giving a pep talk to a pig-girl and Mikey and Mona discussing mutant town politics. Then the white turtle from the future shows up (btw she looks exactly like Karai's Japanese sidekick,down to the tattoos,is that foreshadowing or a weird coincidence) and it just gets annoying... At least we are promised Tokka and Rahzar VS Bebop and Rocksteady. After probably 2-3 issues of Mona ruining for mayor   of Mutant Town or something.  :rolleyes:

QuoteThen the white turtle from the future shows up (btw she looks exactly like Karai's Japanese sidekick,down to the tattoos,is that foreshadowing or a weird coincidence)

You made me think for a hot second that you meant Shinigami from the 2012 series and I got really happy, then remembered who you're actually talking about and got sad, because I really liked Shinigami. IDW should bring her back.

QuoteAt least we are promise Tokka and Rahzar VS Bebop and Rocksteady.

That DOES sound like a all-time TMNT franchise highlight.  :thumbup:

Getting back to The Next Mutation: After the opening five-parter, I skipped straight to Scott McNeil's debut episode, and I'm glad I did, because performance wise, Scott McNeil is AMAZING in this. He's pretty much what it'd be like if Jim Carrey was a Ninja Turtles villain. The funny thing is I'm pretty sure I hated Bonesteel as a kid, but now that I know it's McNeil, that makes it way more awesome, and I've come to appreciate a hammy villain performance a lot more as I've gotten older.

I peeked in on Phealous' review of the episode and his take on Bonesteel is pretty inspired, he says he reminds him most of "Edgar" the Bug from Men in Black, and that it's an appropriate comparison because Bonesteel seems like he too is only pretending to be human.  ^_^

Though Phealous is decidedly less generous on McNeil's performance than I: "Really though, if you only saw him in this, you'd think Scott McNeil couldn't act, and that's really not the case."

[EDIT] Checking the comments section of another of Phealous' videos reveals one person point out that Scott McNeil's performance seems to be a Beetlejuice imitation...which, yeah, I could definitely see that.

I meant (checks the wiki)...Natsu. Apparently,she was supposed to be Tatsu from the movies,but copyright issues.

Oh yeah,i remember when Phelous did a review of Turtles Forever and just whines how the FW turtles are portrayed as pizza obsessed idiots...Like,do you remember the FW cartoon at all?

Yeah, we all had our licks over that like 10 years ago. Still waiting on the re-releases and the TF Director's Cut there Nick. I'm watching Next Mutation over there for crying out loud!

Phealous was also far more positive towards the good seasons of Real Ghostbusters then I was on a rewatch last year or so. Though Collect Call of Cthulhu (and most of JMS' episodes) was indeed great, and the IDW comic definitely took inspiration from the cartoon.

No, Turtles Forever definitely cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.  It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery. 

Quote from: BentonGrey on February 05, 2021, 02:54:30 AM
No, Turtles Forever definitely cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.  It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery.

Not that Im giving you homework...but try watching the movie and any random episode from the middle seasons of the original cartoon. They act exactly like that.

Quote from: BentonGrey on February 05, 2021, 02:54:30 AM
No, Turtles Forever definitely cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.  It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery.

Well, I don't call myself the fleshy organic Thundercracker for nothing! HERE AH GO~! [For context, Transformers Cybertron/Galaxy Force Thundercracker was an otherwise joke character that the Autobots underestimated, and in what I consider one of the best episodes in the show - "Ambush", he holds his own against Jetfire and earns his respect, fighting him to a draw - technically he won, since Jetfire passed out and he didn't, and the other Autobots had to show up and take him out]

Benton, the show featured a character based on Mr. Mxyspklk (sp)/Great Gazoo/Bat-Mite who sounded exactly like Pee-Wee Herman, Xenomorphs made of Pizza, Leatherhead as a Cajun voiced by Jim Cummings whose catchphrase was "I guarantee", Casey Jones as a shallow parody of Dirty Harry (LAWBREAKERS!!), a parody of the Phantom of the Opera, An episode about elderly turtles at a retirement home (a gag that was done multiple times on Teen Titans Go), an episode about Shredder's mom, Bebop and Rocksteady as superheroes, Shredder voiced by the late great James Avery, aka Uncle Phil from the Fresh Prince, as an almost entirely comic relief character who bickered with Krang like a married couple, references to the three Stooges,  the Turtles almost getting ran over by a Zamboni (which was a gag in the Deadpool movie), they broke the fourth wall multiple times (with Raph's doing that replacement his character from every single other iteration), Burne as a weaksauce J.Jonah Jameson, Vernon and Irma (just Vernon and Irma) and that show is the reason Stockman is a laughing stock in everything except the 2003 and the comics.

And all that is off the top of my head, and I haven't watched the show in over a decade.

I'd take a shot at Rob Paulson as Raph and The Tick as Mikey, but Paulson was a highlight as 2012 Donnie and has proven his self evident talents time and time again, and if nothing else, Townsend Coleman gave Sentinel Prime depth when playing off Elita-One and Wasp in Transformers Animated.

By the comparison, TF had ONE scene of the characters fighting a few strange creatures that included a banana that they defeated by unpeeling it, and the 2012's multiple crossovers with the FW show weren't especially reverent to it.

Look, like I always say, nostalgia's a hell of thing, and like what you like, but ~Let it goooooooo...

Turtles Forever was excellent, (will watch again soon - Director's Cut, of course - your move, Nick), and in terms of what you can watch, nothing they've put out since can touch it. TMNT/Batman, the better parts of 2012 and the finale of Rise come close, but not quite. The only possible improvement on it IMO is redubbing the FW characters with the originals and Kevin Michael Richardson, since he did a near perfect James Avery in the 2012. And considering the re-release of the Telltale Back to the Future dubbed in Thomas F. Wilson for Biff Tannen and his ancestors and descendants, and the fact the 2012 got back almost the entire voice cast, I would not rule out the possibility.

Plus Hun from that movie taught me the meaning of the word "superfluous", and for that I am eternally grateful.

Also TMNT 2012 (which, in fairness, is about 50% an excellent show - but the other 50% is atrocious), tried to retcon the FW Krang as a rogue member of the 2012 Kraang who had hopped to another dimension, which was almost unforgivable in how incompatible it was. They also got me hyped as hell for my main man Agent Bishop only to give me a random Kraang with sunglasses on and turned Hun into a shallow Bruce Lee knockoff with 0% impact on the plot. And that's without getting into how they butchered Mikey and Casey on a writing level. Compared to that, Turtles Forever was the height of classiness.

Plus the FW turned the original comics story into something that was almost unrecognizable and a parody of the source material. It was basically if the entire MCU was Hemsworth as Thor (which, I mean, that's basically Teen Titans Go, granted). Mirage Turtles may have been a parody (Mirage Leo's Frank-Miller-esque dialogue from the final act of TF is lifted directly from the first issue of the comic) but it was a dry, low-key parody. It fell to darn near every version of TMNT since (even including Rise) to repair the damage while attempting to give the fans what they want. There's a reason every single version of Shredder since (except Next Mutation - which was a bad show - I finished the 4-episode Vampire arc, and withdraw my earlier comments) has been complete business.

Putting aside bitterness for how it treated the super serious FW show, If you thought Earth's Mightiest Heroes was the shiznit because it had connected stories and well utilized characters, you're going to have a stroke if you ever watch the 2003 from start to finish, assuming you haven't already (skipping every Fast Forward except "The Journal", the Turtle Titan one, and the one with Bishop and Stockman, that is). That show had Leo as having to deal with anger issues/PTSD and having to overcome it on an Empire-Strikes Back style spirit quest during a pivotal time in the story, some really underrated Mikey content, one of the best versions of Karai , Stockman, Leatherhead and Shredder (multiple times over) and April and Casey getting married.

Yeah 2003 version ended up being the middle child of the franchise. To this day,there hasn't been a complete DVD release.( And probably wont be now. ) I guess because people who worked on Nick version grew up with the original cartoon and never cared for the 2003 one. I wonder how its doing on...CBS All Access? Oh...
That neglect is a bit odd considering it went on to influence EVERY version after it and even the Mirage comics.

Quotetried to retcon the FW Krang as a rogue member of the 2012 Kraang who had hopped to another dimension, which was almost unforgivable in how incompatible it was.

As the original cartoon mentions every episode,Krang lost his body before the show began. And when he clones the Krangzoids from himself,they are big reptilian things.

QuoteAn episode about elderly turtles at a retirement home

Isnt that a Robot Chicken gag?

QuoteIt fell to darn near every version of TMNT since (even including Rise) to repair the damage while attempting to give the fans what they want.

Rise also had a fat,lazy Splinter who watched Japanese game shows all the time. Why is every cartoon these days Teen Titans Go with a different skin?   <_<

QuoteYeah 2003 version ended up being the middle child of the franchise. To this day,there hasn't been a complete DVD release.( And probably wont be now. ) I guess because people who worked on Nick version grew up with the original cartoon and never cared for the 2003 one. I wonder how its doing on...CBS All Access? Oh...

To my knowledge, the 2003 is not available legally in any capacity outside of the old out-out-of-print DVDs, and the last three seasons were never given a proper release, with Back to the Sewers not being released at all. Yet the  FW series got a full series DVD release, complete with a box set that came in a container made to resemble the turtle van.

No forgiveness until the series is fully released, including the uncut Turtles Forever. Preservation of content is one of the biggest issues in the entertainment industry, and while the video game industry is almost a lost cause, I expect far better from everyone in the age of Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney + for Rao's sake, Street Sharks got a full DVD release. The 90's Double Dragon cartoon is on TubiTV to watch for free while the 90's Street Fighter cartoon gets the same treatment on a few other free streaming services.

As I like to say, "Rights issues are not my problem. They're your problem. And when you make it my problem, that's a problem."

The fact that we got the Castlevania Collection AND the  Contra Collection from Konami (who put out the 90's TMNT classics), and the awesome Disney Afternoon Collection from Capcom with both Ducktales games (AND A FULLY VOICED REMAKE FROM WAYFORWARD) and they finally got the Scott Pilgrim rereleased, but the classic beat-em-ups aren't currently available means someone is slacking the heck off (Nick/Viacom/Paramount or Konami; pick your poison)

Now the good news and the bad news is that outside of a retro phsyical arcade cabinet that was released within the past year or so, there is one place to get your hands legit on the 90's classic TMNT: Turtles in Time outside of the original SNES and Genesis ports: The third video game tie-in to the 2003 show, which is on PS2 and Gamecube and adapts some of the best arcs from Season 3. The bad news is ordering one online will set you back 70-80 bucks. A reproduction cartridge of the original SNES will set you back 40 bucks (I checked Amazon, obviously other sites exist). I say you could better justify the purchase of Mutant Nightmare by thinking of it as two games in one, with one of those being one of the greatest games of all time.

Maybe I'll have to check the local pawn shops sometime if I have the option and see if I can snag a copy on the supercheap. It's the only reason I have the 2003 seasons sets I do have.

Anyway, to bring it all back, I have a theory that those who defended the FW show this way are conflating the show itself with the classic Konami beat em ups, which had minimal scripts and featured boss enemies that put up incredibly challenging fights, in particular Krang and Shredder at the end, with Shredder turning into Super Shredder in the games.

And Back to the Sewers not getting a season set OR airing in Canada especially sticks in my craw because even with the goofy cyberspace gimmick that was in maybe half the episodes, it was a very admirable return to form, improving the art style, theme song, and bringing back the classic characters. Casey even became a more competent fighter, something that definitely felt like it should have happened, and, of course, the series finale was the wedding of April and Casey, which was absolutely chock full of meaningful cameos. Though it did feature Karai with Dr. Chaplain as her + 1, and as much as I love that series, pairing up Karai with Chaplain was atrocious. I love both characters, but that's seriously one of the worst ships I've ever seen in any series.

QuoteThat neglect is a bit odd considering it went on to influence EVERY version after it and even the Mirage comics.

President of Mesa Verde from Better Call Saul: YUP!

Again, that show's 1. The only reason we have new TMNT at all and the only reason anyone knows who Karai is unless they read the original comics or played that one game from the 90's. And yet not only did it get the shaft, you got folks online going "Oh boy, here come the 2003 fans" And why do you think that might be?

And lest I forget, that cartoon is not only my favorite show of all time, it's also the show I judge all other Western-made action cartoons by. Why? 8 seasons and a movie, and only two of those seasons were anything less than great, that's why.

QuoteAs the original cartoon mentions every episode,Krang lost his body before the show began. And when he clones the Krangzoids from himself,they are big reptilian things.

YUP. One of my favorite episodes of the original show.

And past that, Dimension X is radically different in 2012 than in FW, and separate versions of Traag and Granitor exist in both shows. It was bullcrap of the highest order.

QuoteIsnt that a Robot Chicken gag?

It was, and it's also in the original show. As they said with Friedberg and Setzer, it's hard to make a parody of something that was already a parody.

QuoteRise also had a fat,lazy Splinter who watched Japanese game shows all the time.

Yep, and I hated that with a white hot passion. He gets over that at the end of S1. I hated about 80% of that show, but the remaining 20%? Actually rather good.

QuoteWhy is every cartoon these days Teen Titans Go with a different skin?

Because for some reason quite a few animated comedies these days (Go, Rise, Star Trek Lower Decks) think comedy = "Hey, what if the entire cast are a-holes for no sensible reason?"

At least Rick and Morty, like Go, was self-aware of it, though a good chunk of its fanbase managed to miss that.

Even the Harley Quinn did that too with the Mister Freeze storyline, which I really enjoyed.

Good news is that the whole 2003 show is up on CBS All Access. If anyone uses that.

With video games preservation...pretty much. IIRC GOG/CD Project Red had to write most of the Blade Runner code on their own. Richard Garriot has a computer running the original Ultima at all times so he doesn't lose the code. When hes not getting trolled by fake Spoony on twitter,ofc. And I think I mentioned that Frank Herbert estate didn't even want to discuss the Dune games with GOG. 

Action cartoons are not really a thing anymore,it seems. Compare Thundercats 2011 and the current TTG inspired version,for example. Or even 2012 TMNT and Rise. 2012 version is kind of a link here. It was an action cartoon and it was good when it was that. But also wacky races,horror parodies and butt jokes. And oh boy,the homages in that version...One episode of not-Mad Max would be bearable,but a whole tv-movie/3 episodes? That's just a waste of everyone time.

On the original cartoon,any episode with Casey was pretty damn hilarious. When he goes undercover at a company,while still wearing the mask ofc.  :thumbup:

QuoteGood news is that the whole 2003 show is up on CBS All Access. If anyone uses that.

:o

Thor, do you want to field this one?

YEEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFPBQaPL5mQ)

Wait, wait, wait.....Micheal Pena from Ant-Man, YOU wanna field this one?

Back it up, baaaack it up, all you gotta do is just baaaack it up.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxn7LZAzqhY)

So after doing some research....CBS All-Access is on Canada. Good to know. I guess I have to take a few things back.

Two questions:

1) Is Turtles Forever on there? I went on the site, and it didn't come up on the search bar when I typed it in, and it won't let me look at the episode guide without signing up.

2) Is it the director's cut? By which I mean, do they, include the pivotal scenes where

Spoiler

Karai is conflicted about helping Shredder?

Oh, look it's available to rent on Amazon Prime U.S. Not ideal, but it's an option.

FW Splinter: Please, take this moment to nourish your body and soul, as you prepare for the challenge ahead of you.

2003 Leo to FW Splinter: Thank you...Master. My brothers and I have found this dimension to be...welll.....disorienting. But being here....seeing you....feels right.

FW Splinter: To me, also, Leonardo. You four are welcome here....always.

2003 Rapheal: That's kinda what OUR Master Splinter said....to us....about them.

Yeah, real mean-spirited.

[...] Huh. Rewatching through the 2003 Shredder related content....I think the New York guys screwed up. Scottie Ray should have been Megatron in Cyberverse, not Marc Thompson. Marc Thompson was brilliant as Sky-Byte though.

QuoteIIRC GOG/CD Project Red had to write most of the Blade Runner code on their own.

I bought my copy. During a sale of course. Though it might actually be 2049 by the time I get to it.

QuoteAction cartoons are not really a thing anymore,it seems.

You know what, that's not quite fair. Young Justice Outsiders, whatever else I may feel about it, is a serious minded action cartoon. So was S7 of Clone Wars, Netflix War for Cybertron sure as shell as. Marvel's Spider-Man and Transformers: Cyberverse are close enough. So's Steven Universe. It's not my thing, but it's telling a serious narrative, and it's still on, as I understand it. Bravest Warriors of all things got pretty darn epic as it went.

QuoteOne episode of not-Mad Max would be bearable,but a whole tv-movie/3 episodes? That's just a waste of everyone time.

Everything in S5 straight-up shouldn't have happened except Usagi and Hothead.

EIGHT. SEASONS. AND. A. MOVIE. And it ended on a high note.

QuoteOn the original cartoon,any episode with Casey was pretty damn hilarious. When he goes undercover at a company,while still wearing the mask ofc.

2003 did it better.

*Casey walks into TCRI building with a toaster as a distraction* You sold me a defective toaster!

Totally-Not-A-Utrom: TCRI doesn't sell toasters, sir.

Casey: Then what do you call this?

Totally-Not-A-Utrom: That says "RITC" IN CRAYON, SIR.  :thumbup:

Casey: Give me liberty or give me death! ATTICA! ATTICA!

I have an theory that people who misremember the FW cartoon are conflating it with the classic Konami beat em up games, with their minimal scripts and incredibly challenging boss fights, especially against Krang and Shredder at the end, with Shredder turning into Super Shredder.

Also I had an ENORMOUS post about James Rolfe's (aka Angry Video Game Nerd) 59-and-a-half minute of the show proving it was nothing but a comedy, but the board, of course, ate it.

Know that the entire 22:51-25:12 section is James doing NOTHING but giving examples of the show breaking the fourth wall.

James: They mention the music, the dialogue. It never stops. There's no fourth wall to be BROKEN. The wall is long gone.

So, yeah, there's a song for those who think Turtles Forever exaggerated the comedic nature of the Fred Wolfe show.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWZVl67nnpw)

Thats why I said that maybe if it does well on CBS AA ,Nick might do a crossover or something. But thats a looooong shot. Imagine if we get that second season of Fast Forward now... 🙂
Well YJ and CW were revivals/continuations. Last TF cartoon I watched was RiD and that shared a lot of problems with Tmnt 2012 and USM. And had several of its own. But that was also more more focused on one-offs and trying to be funny. And I never really got how was it connected to Prime. Probably because I never got all that far.

And I just noticed that scene with Casey might be a Naked Gun reference.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 05, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
Thats why I said that maybe if it does well on CBS AA ,Nick might do a crossover or something. But thats a looooong shot. Imagine if we get that second season of Fast Forward now... 🙂
Well YJ and CW were revivals/continuations. Last TF cartoon I watched was RiD and that shared a lot of problems with Tmnt 2012 and USM. And had several of its own. But that was also more more focused on one-offs and trying to be funny. And I never really got how was it connected to Prime. Probably because I never got all that far.

And I just noticed that scene with Casey might be a Naked Gun reference.

Considering all the references in the TMNT 1987 (again, Rolfe's review covers a bunch - he's a film buff, and so were the writers of that show), would not be surprised. Unless you meant 2003.

QuoteLast TF cartoon I watched was RiD and that shared a lot of problems with Tmnt 2012 and USM. And had several of its own. But that was also more more focused on one-offs and trying to be funny. And I never really got how was it connected to Prime. Probably because I never got all that far.

Did you get to Ratchet, Bulkhead, Starscream and Soundwave? It does bring in a little itty-bitty bit of Prime as it goes, and the finale is....points for effort, and Harry Lennix was pretty decent as Cyclonus, but it was definitely too little too late.

I've only seen two shows where the tie-in comic was actually BETTER than the show it was based on. One was TF RID 2015. The other was the Jodie Whittiker run of Doctor Who.

A 6 issue comic run of TF RID 2015, and they nailed the art style, humor and brought in everyone from Team Prime, + Predaking, resulting in a scene that 100% should have been in the show.....Strongarm fangirling over Arcee.

If nothing else though, they nailed the tv debut of Windblade.

Anyway, I recommend Cyberverse. If you can make it through S1, and stomach some of its eccentric humor. It's epic as hell. See my long posts of me gushing about it over on the Netflix Transformers: War for Cybertron thread, including me giving the Clone Wars-style "Cheat Sheet" for what episodes YOU HAVE to watch.

Anyway, rewatching through parts of Turtles Forever. Honesty is the best policy, Benton. Slight exaggeration, not "cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.", but I'll nice and generous and say a 6 out of 10. They're more manic and hyper and disruptive. But that doesn't mean they got serious in the 1987, because they really, really did not.

Back to Rise, even though the finale was.....pretty good, Rise was the TMNT that made me NEVER want them to make more again unless they do a straight-up revival of TMNT 2003, another crossover, or one directly based on the IDW. Or another TMNT/Batman (DO THE ANIMATED ONE!!!) or TMNT/Power Rangers. Just throwing in a well executed Jennika (could definitely see Zelda Williams voicing her) or a much better executed Venus could really add something to the proceedings.

But we got Netflix movie of Rise where they fight the Kraang, so if nothing else......it's probably going to look gorgeous. and probably have killer action

The toster scene in 2003 version. Thou,I guess yelling "Attica" isnt really a reference.

I forgot how far I got with RiD. I think I saw the Windblade episode. Did they ever explain how Grimlock is a Decepticon here? Is it a different Grimlock? With this being the same universe as Cybertron games?
I will do some research on War for Cybertron,so I might get around to that.

While I doubt that a revival of 2003 series will ever happen,barring a miracle of it becoming the #1 show on CBS AA (actually,their flagship shows are STD and Twilight Zone reboot,so it could happen), it would be fun to see that threeway Shredder war( Shredders war?  War of the Shredders?) or what happened to Evil Turtles. Well I think I used up all the jokes about CBS streaming platform.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 05, 2021, 09:47:00 PM
The toster scene in 2003 version. Thou,I guess yelling "Attica" isnt really a reference.

It's a reference to the movie "Dog Day Afternoon".

QuoteDid they ever explain how Grimlock is a Decepticon here? Is it a different Grimlock? With this being the same universe as Cybertron games?
I will do some research on War for Cybertron,so I might get around to that.

Different character. Happens a lot in TF of course, but TF writer Mairghread Scott said it's different Grimlock.

Also different canon. Aligned isn't one canon. It's a continuity family. Hasbro may have claimed it was at one point, but it become clear over time that they weren't the same. Same thing as when Hasbro claimed Primus, the Fallen and Sideways are the same character in every continuity.

QuoteWhile I doubt that a revival of 2003 series will ever happen,barring a miracle of it becoming the #1 show on CBS AA (actually,their flagship shows are STD and Twilight Zone reboot,so it could happen),

Stranger Things, mah man, stranger things. No, not the Netflix series, I'm saying stranger things have happen. Streets Sharks on DVD.

As for STD and Twilight Zone reboot, new, exclusive content is a killer app. And I know this because I just finished watching Wandavision while I was writing this.

I did in fact watch Discovery Season 3 and it was not terribly good. You're mostly just waiting for the cat's 2 minute cameo every two or three episodes.

Quoteit would be fun to see that threeway Shredder war( Shredders war?  War of the Shredders?)

What if I told you that got covered in a mobile game of all things?

Quoteor what happened to Evil Turtles.

Oh, yeah. "DNA Is Thicker than Water" was another pretty good episode of Fast Forward. Doesn't connect to the original run, so skippable, but still pretty good.

Did you know that the ghost of Darius AND 4 ghosts that took the form of the Dark Turtles were the villains of TMNT/GB 2?

QuoteWell I think I used up all the jokes about CBS streaming platform.

I found out that they got my favorite show on there, and Canada actually gets the service, so I don't feel like being harsh to them anymore.

Quote from: Silver Shocker on February 05, 2021, 12:18:41 PM
Putting aside bitterness for how it treated the super serious FW show... [/i]

(emphasis added)

Quote from: BentonGrey on February 05, 2021, 02:54:30 AM
It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery.

When did I say that the FW cartoon wasn't wacky and silly?  Of course it was, and I love it for its exuberant madness.  It's a ton of fun.  As I said, my reaction was about degree and attitude in the movie.  Of course the FW show wasn't serious, but TF treated it just as a punching bag, with no appreciation that I could see.  It sounds like you didn't like the original cartoon, so I can't imagine you'd be a good judge of this particular question, if that's the case.

I remember the cartoon well, having rewatched it in the last few years.  And I have a little experience with the material....:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/turtles-fight-with-honor/

You're making a ton of assumptions, SS.  My disliking TF has nothing to do with my opinion of the 2003 series.  I have nothing against that show and enjoyed many parts of it.

Quote(emphasis added)

A little sarcasm on my part, I'll grant.

Quotebut TF treated it just as a punching bag, with no appreciation that I could see.

As I've made clear already (and I concede, I certainly could have been more tact about it), I don't agree. I already posted the dialogue for the scene with Splinter.

Rewatching certain parts of TF, I noticed one of the things that may have contributed to this sense that it didn't respect the 89 TMNT, and perhaps you'd agree with me here.

The music.

Gone were the rad 80's synthesizers that 89 Mikey dubbed "excellent" and music used for the 89 TMNT is a kind of "Looney Tones" kind of thing that doesn't really fit the music from the 2003 or the music from the 1989 and is trying to empathize how bumbling the 89 TMNT are. If the music used for their scenes sounded more the like the music from that show, I think it might have helped.

Back to appreciation.

The concept artists and animators for the flick went to great lengths to recreate the look of 89 TMNT, and crowd shots are full of character designs taken straight from the original, in lavish modern graphics.
And while there was much mumbling about the lack of returning voice actors, the voice actors we did get for these characters put in an effort to try to make these characters sound right. It never felt like they were doing them a disservice to me.

The movie ends the final, most high stakes battle with Ch'rell with him being just barely defeated by Bebop and Rocksteady.

QuoteIt sounds like you didn't like the original cartoon, so I can't imagine you'd be a good judge of this particular question, if that's the case.

An incorrect assumption on your part. I adored the original when I was a kid. I was just about the right age. I probably liked it more than The Real Ghostbusters, and as a little youngling I insisted on adding "Peter" to my full name.

I saw the movies in the theatres, I had the toys, I'm reasonably sure I had the breakfast cereal and the Kraft Dinner and the canned pasta. I once went to a school book fair and bought a drug PSA book because it starred the Ninja Turtles. I played the video games. I got the infamous 1st game as a Christmas present from my aunt, and because the number of Nintendo Entertainment System games I owned was very small, I played it so much that I got to the Technodrome multiple times and that I don't know anyone who could get through that infamous dam level easier than me. It's really not that hard if you practice. Because of this, I greatly appreciated Wayforward's 2012 TMNT tie-in game "Danger of the Ooze" because it was functionally a remake of that game done much better.

I remember when "Planet of the Turtleoids" came out, a multi-part tv movie event that I recorded off the tv and watched at least half a dozen times. At the time I loved it because it had a whole planet of turtles, the Technodrome Mk 2, Shredder and Krang causing trouble while the TMNT were off planet, making them seem more dangerous, and because the storyarc featured the debuts of Tatoo, Groundchuck, Dirt Bag, and Chrome Dome, and not only did I have all three of the latter characters' toys, I would rent and play TMNT 3: The Manhatten Project. I'm with Nostalgia Critic on this one - it's my favorite of the classic beat-em-ups, and because it's an NES exclusive, it's never once been re-released, and I'd really like to see the day that it is. Groundchuck and Dirt were bosses in that game and were quite cool in them. That the fights in PotT were fairy short and not too elaborate, as a kid I thought it was cool.

So nostalgic was that show for me that the casting of Rob as Donnie in the 2012 sounded horribly, horribly wrong the first time I heard it, and I had to get used to it, and it's a good thing I was able to, because Donnie was best Turtle in that show.

If I really dislike the 89 iteration, would I really consider spending eighty dollars to get an arcade perfect port of Turtles in Time? Especially for the Gamecube, a system that had quite possibly the worst controller of any major console? Would I really be gushing about how epic Bebop and Rocksteady are in the IDW comic book, without sacrificing any of their fun, boisterous personality? So well did the 89 cartoon set the standard for the TMNT's iconic personalities (which the Mirage comics did not have) that every single iteration since, including the one directly using the comic lore as its base, carried that over. Every iteration of TMNT since, no matter epic, serious, or dark it may be, always made sure to bring the fun and silly. The failure of the Netflix Transformers: War for Cybertron to capitalize on that was, as we've discussed many times (and I imagine more in the future) by far its greatest folly (well, I can't speak for you - again, I predict you're going to hate what they do with Optimus in Chapter Two...)

Would I really get so much amusement every time Tokka or Razor or Tatsu pop up in a different iteration? or appreciate the very 89-inspired content in the TMNT/Power Rangers comic?

I stopped watching the original show during the "Red Skies" seasons, as I had gotten older and lost interest in it, and after that the franchise dyed down, and I largely didn't even think of about it until it was mentioned in a nostalgic context in an episode of Malcolm in the Middle.

When I became a fan of the 2003, and read about it online, to a degree, I felt like we'd all been hornswoggled, and the internet fans drew battle lines. Thus I had to defend the 2003, which I'm apparently still doing to this day.

So I guess I jumped the gun and assumed you didn't like the show specifically because of how TF handled the 89, lumping you in with those people. Sorry, that's on me.

QuoteMy disliking TF has nothing to do with my opinion of the 2003 series.

I see "TF" and my mind goes to "Transformers". Maybe I'm more of a TF fan than a TMNT fan these days. Then again, those last few Turtles shows have been a bit of a mixed bag.

QuoteI have nothing against that show and enjoyed many parts of it

Glad to hear it.

Could Turtles Forever have taken out all the moments of the 89 TMNT being bumbling and hyperactive? Sure, but you have to replace that with something and the extensive fourth wall breaking gags I've already brought up would be extremely jarring in a 2003 TMNT movie, since, as far as I can recall, the series doesn't continue such a gag even once.

If you have a suggestion as what you think the bumbling nature of their portrayal in TF should have been replaced with, I'm curious to hear it, because I'm drawing a blank. The whole point of a crossover movie like this, in addition to being the grand finale to the 2003, is to mine humor out of and empathize how these characters differ, and they already display their differing catch phrases.

I just remembered another Fast Forward episode worth watching that connects to the original run: "Timing is Everything" which featured them time travelling back to the Turtles' first fight with the Shredder.

Now, I've already gave me thoughts on the matter, but what would you all like to see from the next TMNT cartoon, since there will no doubt be a new one before too long?

Another idea I like, is since I'm getting a bit tired of tv reboots every few years, and they're doing a Netflix Rise movie in addition to having recently done a Batman vs TMNT movie, would be do an animated movie every year or two instead. Might be a nice change of pace, keep things fresh, not hang on any one iteration for too long and you might be able to make everyone (or most everyone) happy by giving them a chance for their version of TMNT to shine.

Quote from: Silver Shocker on February 06, 2021, 03:19:04 AM
\Another idea I like, is since I'm getting a bit tired of tv reboots every few years, and they're doing a Netflix Rise movie in addition to having recently done a Batman vs TMNT movie, would be do an animated movie every year or two instead. Might be a nice change of pace, keep things fresh, not hang on any one iteration for too long and you might be able to make everyone (or most everyone) happy by giving them a chance for their version of TMNT to shine.

So basically, something like how DC does with their movies? Which, in all honesty, wouldn't be a bad idea. You could have one based on the original comic, one based on the first gen toon after, maybe one based on one of the toyline spin-offs (like cave turtles or some such that they did.)

QuoteSo basically, something like how DC does with their movies?

Exactly! Between the Batman/TMNT crossover and DC having movies that are continuing either cartoons or earlier movie plots, it feels like somewhere TMNT could thrive in a way they haven't before.

Maybe an anthology, like Gotham Knights or Animatrix or GL Emerald Knights?

Yeah,we a saw a lot of revivals that I never would have expected. I might even start hoping for Half Life 2 episode 3 at this point. 🙂
Red Skies talk reminds me...with so many mutants in IDW universe,I hope they do H.A.V.O.C at some point.
The war between Tengu-Shredder,Cyber-Shredder and Shredder happened in a mobile game?

Also, I play TMNT Legends on and off,and again- no 2003 characters in the game. And we have Nick,movie,original cartoon and Mirage versions. Well,Mirage turtles only. I assume its some rights issue again.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 06, 2021, 08:25:02 AM
The war between Tengu-Shredder,Cyber-Shredder and Shredder happened in a mobile game?

Well, no, not really. I at one point thought that was the case, but among closer inspection, that is not the case. There's a 2009 mobile game called "The Shredder Reborn" about the Tengu Shredder being resurrected and the TMNT having to beat him in it, and the other two don't fight him, so I guess it doesn't count. Oh well.

I think I remember TMNT Legends. Even without the 2003 stuff in there, it still looks neat.

Quote from: Silver Shocker on February 06, 2021, 05:20:55 AM

Maybe an anthology, like Gotham Knights[/u] or Animatrix or GL Emerald Knights?

[Michael Scott mode activate]  NO! NO! GOD NO![/Michael Scott]

Nothing like Gotham Knights! When I said in a previous thread I had seen worse art styles in other movies.... GK was one. Some of it was okay, but *gah* I just didn't like it. Animatrix was the same way, but IIRC only one of those I really didn't the style. (By same way, I mean different styles for each story.)

I wouldn't have anything against the anthology if the styles varied to match the era it was in. (Like Turtles Forever did) And they could pick up another DC movie trick, and do a DC showcase style short (or would it be shellcase?) based on some of the lesser known charcters. A Mondo Gecko or Fugitoid short? Yes please!

LOL, look S'all good, Man. All I meant was an anthology. I didn't mean the art style or execution had to be anything like that.

Look I get it, not everyone like that art style, but I didn't mean Turtles had to do it like that.

You can do it like Batman: Brave in the Bold. In addition coming back years later as a really quite good Scooby-Doo team up movie that I gushed about on here a few years ago, you also had these episodes that would mix in little mini espisodes for a bit and one them was a 70's-80's style Scooby Doo team up with writing and a voice cast to match (which is not what Gotham Knights did; that was more like they wrote and cast and acted it like an usual movie) and they did Bat-Manga complete with the infamous Lord Death Man.

So yeah, like TMNT anthology movie. You could do, say, like the micro series and have a little bit of Leo, Mikey, Raph (have Raph hanging out with Casey, like you do) Shredder, Karai, Bebop and Rocksteady, Stockman, Krang/the Kraang, it all pretty much writes itself. And by plugging in all these different elements like DC and Marvel do with some of their stuff (not to mention The Mandalorian), you can try to increase the number of people who opt in.

Okay,to add try and summarize the 4Kids vs Nick in one word...payoff. In 2003 version,EVERYTHING had a payoff (at least in the first 5 seasons). Recurring villain Nano becomes a Vision-like superhero,they explain what happened with uncle Augie,Donnie remembers to cure the mutants from S1 which ties into the Atlantis myth arc...even minor things like that have a payoff.

Nick version just gives up on plots. Donnie finding a cure for mutation? You think he would offer it to Splinter,but nah,they fumble around with it and then its never mentioned again. The weird love triangle between Donnie,April and Casey? The show gives up on it around season 4. Oh yeah,Karai being Splinters daughter? It takes him 10 episodes to admit that to the turtles,and a few more for Karai to learn that. And then she gets mutated into a snake and is evil again. Then gets better, starts her own clan...and disappears.
Splinter dies...but then its undid by time travel...and then he dies anyway. And it's not that sad the second time.
Mutagen Man is probably still on the loose.
The whole thing functions on a status quo,which gets restored at the end of the episode. And nothing here pays off or even changes that much. In season 5,the turtles are pretty much the same as they were in s1,just minus Splinter.

Yup. Pretty much.
Mutagen Man was especially disappointing. Especially since the 2003, as you said, covered their tracks on that many times over.

Or you look at the Justice Force itself (Nano joined the team, and Mikey's alter-ego Turtle Titan genuinely earned his way onto the team in a reserve member). Every single member of that team is someone we met previously in the show. It was like the finale of Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

To give another example, I know many rolled their eyes at Speedball becoming Penance during and after Civil War, but one thing I appreciated is in the Penance mini Paul Jenkins took the opportunity to resolve a plot from years ago and had Spidey help out Mendal Stromm, aka the Robot Master. Sure it happened offscreen, but we were told it happened at some point in the past, indicating he didn't drag his feet too much on that. More of that please.

Here's another one that bothered the heck out of me. When they introduced Falco, the episode involved Donnie having to learn to follow Mikey's example of learning to "fight without thinking", which he does in that episode - and as far as I remember, it never comes up again. I remember circa early S1 someone said "this show has been on a roll with character development" and I said back then - that's not character development. Character development is retained - as in they're a different person longterm compared to how they started. Like Karai.

Compare that to Mikey in the 2003. Yeah, he's an overzealous doofus - but as Donnie said when he managed to beat the Atlantean guy, "You really stepped up". In most of the superhero-themed episodes, silly as they are, he uses his skills and his knowledge base to his advantage, and earns the respect of his superhero peers, to the point that even as the other turtles were mocking him, he earned a place on the Justice Force (albeit as a reserve member) actually inspired someone in the future in Fast Forward to become the new Turtle Titan. And in the Battle Nexus rematch episode, Mikey's B.S. about his accidental win resulted in him having to humble himself and ask Leo for help, and due to where Leo's head was at the time, he went ahead and helped him instead of being a jerk about it like Raph and Donnie were. It was a really good moment for Mikey and Leo.

And in the IDW, Mikey's love of manga and such resulted in him having a natural talent for learning Japanese lore and he was revealed to have the most natural talent for learning spiritual abilities. The 2012 version had none of that.

Now, I recently rewatched the 2003 shorts on Youtube, and while it was fun to revisit that iteration for the nostalgia and the voices and music and art style, the writing on those is terrible - every single one of them is about the TMNT (and in one case Splinter - which was especially bad) being complete abusive jerks to each other. It's like the writers for about 60% or so of Rise looked at those shorts and went "Yes, THAT'S what the show needs to be like"

On the plus side, if they want to do a revival of the 2012 with the returning cast and actually do some interesting, rewarding plots, that would be appreciated. I mean, I'm actually looking forward to the Netflix movie of Rise because they're doing the Kraang and most of that show was really bad IMO.

Yeah,thing felt earned in the 4Kids version. Each time they fight Shredder,they do a bit better. And even when they do take him down,they barely survive. Nick turtles...each time they encounter an enemy,they struggle the same like the first time. And when they do go up against Shredder, it's Splinter who does all the fighting. By the time they actually kill the Shredder, it's like...whatever,we dragged this out for 5 seasons.
Oh,April having telekinetic powers? Important for exactly one  episode. The forgotten,like everything.
And since Im ranting...movie parodies. Something that the FW did well, actually. Because,it had almost no continuity and was selfaware that its doing sendoffs of 50's monster movies. Nick cartoon doesn't do parodies as much as watered down retellings. And since it's supposed to be serialized,it feels shoehorned and self-indulgent. Hey,lets stop the whole plot and do a whole episode of "Big trouble in little China". Hey,lets spend half a season jerking ourselves over "Friday the 13th" and "Nightmare on Elm Street."

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 11, 2021, 05:12:22 PM

QuoteHey,lets stop the whole plot and do a whole episode of "Big trouble in little China". Hey,lets spend half a season jerking ourselves over "Friday the 13th" and "Nightmare on Elm Street."

Now, on the one hand, that farm arc was an absolute nightmare. There are like three or four episodes of the whole thing worth watching. On the other hand, I actually like the Big Trouble in the Little China, if for no other reason than more James Hong is always a good thing and that episode had some solid foreshadowing about Irma. Which I totally caught, and pointed out at the time.

I mean,I like Big Trouble in little China,I just don't need it recreated in a TMNT cartoon.
Funny thing,but the farm arc of Nick cartoon also had Leo recovering from "vocal cord damage" because Jason Biggs got fired and replaced with Seth Green.

Yeah,the shorts from the 2003 cartoon...are either toy ads,or not really funny. Like Mikey steals the turtle-helicopter because he need to get to the comic shop,and then other beat him up or something like that. IIRC most of it is- Mikey does something stupid,somebody beats him up.

https://youtu.be/LVuTCDB1iMc (https://youtu.be/LVuTCDB1iMc)

There was a Superbowl ad for Paramount+ (which is the same thing as CBSAA,I think?). Notice 2003 Leo next to RuPaul. There is a sentence I never expected to say.

Hey now, that's a Superbowl ad right there!  :thumbup:

They kinda did Ready Player One better in 1 minute of footage (yeah, I had it on on tv the other night for a few minutes; wasn't really impressed).

That ad did its job, which is letting you know what's on the streaming service, and yeah, seeing 2003 Leo on there makes me happy. I'm curious if they drew that new. I'm like 50/50 on whether or not they did.

QuoteThey kinda did Ready Player One better in 1 minute of footage (yeah, I had it on on tv the other night for a few minutes; wasn't really impressed).

Member berries the movie. Just watch the Gundam vs MechaGodzilla clip and you are good.

I saw some people say its new animation, but I wouldn't really bet on that. Nice of Paramount to remember the show anyway.
I wouldn't hope for a revival,but I think after 12 years and 2 shows, people would be ready to see it. Or at least some elements from it. Reminder that IDW teased Battle Nexus 7 years ago.

QuoteMember berries the movie. Just watch the Gundam vs MechaGodzilla clip and you are good.

I'm good without that. I'm pretty sure I saw Duke Nukem in the first 10-15 minutes. I'd rather watch actual Gundam. I still got a season and change of Iron Blooded Orphans to get through.

The movie also featured some of the worst "Show don't tell" of any movie I've ever seen. Just massive narration explaining the world at the start. Anyway....

QuoteI wouldn't hope for a revival,but I think after 12 years and 2 shows, people would be ready to see it. Or at least some elements from it. Reminder that IDW teased Battle Nexus 7 years ago.

If you mean that annual, I don't think that was ever meant to promise a return to it. I never expected that myself.

As for the rest, the word I like to use is "exploit". As near as I can tell, Paramount owns all TMNT except maybe Next Mutation, and yet they spread the 2003, 2012 and Rise across three streaming services, because Greed Without Limits. I don't even KNOW if the Fred Wolfe version is available on any service.

Paramount/Nick will use elements for new iterations, but that's all. We don't even get a crossover in the world of a new TMNT. 2012 crossed over with FW multiple times until the gag got a bit stale (but enough about S5) yet no 2003 crossover at all.
Now, granted, 2003/2012 wouldn't be a particularly interesting juxtaposition. The most interesting juxtaposition would be the change from traditional animation to CGI, which 2012 already did with FW (while I'm on the subject, Krang's robot body looked atrocious in that show's CGI art style.) (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/1/11/Krang1987%28nick%29_07.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161208063833)

Now on the other hand...... 2003/Rise.....c'mon, you know you wanna see that business. And if it's animated by the animation team from Rise....oh boy. Now THAT'S a Netflix movie worth making.

Speaking of which, The Rise movie is supposed to be about the Kraang, and we already saw what they looked like by the end of Rise, and I gotta say, they do look sweet.  (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/5/59/IMG_6140.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20200811035012)

To return to the TMNT comparison, if I may be so bold, Mirage is Maniac Mansion (simple, but effective and impressive for its time, and a little bit dangerous), (https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/529890/ss_25cc5d80393688c8833478f06ebd940027b01b8f.1920x1080.jpg?t=1542764774)  FW is Day of the Tentacle (a quality product, but one that undeniably turned the original into something considerably zanier)  (https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ZPOy4ky0GjlmTOB_-Hi0zMaPmy4=/1200x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6361979/day-of-the-tentacle-remastered-screenshot-02_1920.0.jpg)and 2003 is Thimbleweed Park (playful and with genuine affection for its spiritual predecessor, but, like Wandavision, with something ominous and threatening sneaking in around the margins). (https://indiemegabooth.com/wp-cargo/uploads/2016/03/02_ThimbleweedPark-Ray-InsideDiner-Dialogue.png) Appropriately, TP was the one I enjoyed the most, and would most like to see get a followup. Rise, appropriately, features a Day of the Dead-style skeleton who could have come straight out of Grim Fandango.

2012 is, of course, one of those games that switches genres and tones as you play it to deliberately contrast and confuse the player (Inversion, Frog Fractions, Pony Island). Though I probably like those a lot more than the 2012. Again, I am a morbid fellow.

IIRC the annual ends with Timelords saying they should totally organize a tournament and call it Battle Nexus. It could have been just a continuity nod,or a setup for something along the line. They can basically get around to it whenever if they decide to do it.
I think Nick/Viacom only got TMNT to get the original cartoon and try to recreate its success. "If we believe hard enough,it will be 1988 again" has been their approach since 2012. And I don't even want to think about the upcoming movie reboot by Seth Rogen.
Now about the original cartoon...I think it was on Netflix once? I doubt its there anymore.
Btw,I hate this mess with streaming services. They are now in a position where cable channels were 15 years ago,so that worked out great in the end.
2012 crossovers also hit a lot of same notes as Turtles forever. Down to new turtles making fun of the belt buckles with initials.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 17, 2021, 10:40:28 AM
IIRC the annual ends with Timelords saying they should totally organize a tournament and call it Battle Nexus. It could have been just a continuity nod,or a setup for something along the line. They can basically get around to it whenever if they decide to do it.
I think Nick/Viacom only got TMNT to get the original cartoon and try to recreate its success. "If we believe hard enough,it will be 1988 again" has been their approach since 2012.

There's only so many times I can say the same thing without beating a dead horse with another dead horse.

QuoteAnd I don't even want to think about the upcoming movie reboot by Seth Rogen.

Nor do I. Though, like I said, I desperately want them to take a break on the TMNT for a while, unless they do any of the things I suggested earlier in the thread, but I guess that's not how it works.

On the other hand, binging the Men in Black and Ghostbusters cartoons last year really left me thinking both of those properties deserve another try in animated form (and GB is supposed to get it) MiB the series wasn't perfect, and some of it was pretty bad, but in some respects it was superior to the movie sequels (though that's not saying a lot)

On the other hand, if things turned out differently, TMNT could have easily been a cinematic universe if they pulled it off. Maybe in an alternate universe....

Shredder: A multiverse of Turtles!!!

Also, fun fact: in the 2012, they avoid ever calling themselves the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - I never noticed that - and that gag continues into Rise with Raph calling the four of them + April - and I promise I am not making this up - "The Mad Dogs".

QuoteNow about the original cartoon...I think it was on Netflix once? I doubt its there anymore.

If it was, it was either region-specific or it was before March 7, 2014, because I got Netflix for The Lost Missions season of The Clone Wars and it's never been on there. If it was, I would have watched it.

QuoteBtw,I hate this mess with streaming services. They are now in a position where cable channels were 15 years ago,so that worked out great in the end.

Again, dead horse.

Quote2012 crossovers also hit a lot of same notes as Turtles forever. Down to new turtles making fun of the belt buckles with initials.

Again, for me the novelty was the clashing art styles and getting back Cam Clarke and the rest, but as I've mentioned many times before, I'd rather have an enriching and entertaining story than pretty visuals. TMNT 2003 wasn't even a bad looking show (outside of Fast Forward, anyway)

Heck, you could do another animated crossover with one of the other iterations of TMNT, that would at least be kinda interesting in the moment. And if would be utterly hilarious to see, say, the 1989 and Rise fans go to war for 10 + years because one crossover movie made fun of at least one of those two iterations.

I've already seen evidence online that Rise fans are salty as hell at 1) What they view as Nick screwing over the show and getting it cancelled 2) The very inference online that Rise sucked. "It got better" they will say. Yes, it did get better, in the last two or three episodes of both seasons. That's still called a bad show.

QuoteIf it was, it was either region-specific or it was before March 7, 2014, because I got Netflix for The Lost Missions season of The Clone Wars and it's never been on there. If it was, I would have watched it.

I might be misremembering something,ofc. After a google search,I see the cartoon is on Amazon Prime.

I tend to repeat myself,I know. And we cover the same ground from time to time.
MiB and Real Ghostbusters lend themselves nicely to episodic stories. You have a different case every episode with a different ghost/alien.
Real Ghostbusters was really good while JMS was on it(ice-cold take,I know). After that it just descends into 80's cartoon shenenigans. Thou I did like the episode where they parody the TMNT with a trio of reptilian pizza obsessed ghosts. Their leader was even voiced by Leonardo.
Back in the day,I kept confusing MiB the series and Roswell Conspiracy. Because idk,they dealt with aliens and I was like 7. Btw, Roswell Conspiracy is getting a reboot,so I might get around to rewatching it before that.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 17, 2021, 11:52:24 AM

QuoteIf it was, it was either region-specific or it was before March 7, 2014, because I got Netflix for The Lost Missions season of The Clone Wars and it's never been on there. If it was, I would have watched it.

I might be misremembering something,ofc. After a google search,I see the cartoon is on Amazon Prime.

Interesting. As I understand, Amazon Prime's content also varies from region to region. I'll probably look into it a bit later.

QuoteMiB and Real Ghostbusters lend themselves nicely to episodic stories. You have a different case every episode with a different ghost/alien.

Indeed. I've heard MiB described as Ghostbuster's spiritual successor. Which it kinda is. But RIPD (Rest in Peace Department) seemed to be "Men in Black with Ghosts" in a far more direct and literal sense.

QuoteReal Ghostbusters was really good while JMS was on it(ice-cold take,I know). After that it just descends into 80's cartoon shenenigans.

Yup.

QuoteThou I did like the episode where they parody the TMNT with a trio of reptilian pizza obsessed ghosts. Their leader was even voiced by Leonardo.

That one's neat for the sheer novelty of it, but it's definitely from the decidedly "not good" chunk of the show. And while the leader was voiced by Cam Clarke, he was doing a variation of his Rocksteady voice that ends up functionally being a parody of the way Mikey talks. Because TMNT equals "Cowabunga! Pizza! Radical!" because shallow reference pool. And the Real Ghostbusters did the same thing with a family of ghosts very broadly based on the Simpsons. That one was particularly "not good."

QuoteBack in the day,I kept confusing MiB the series and Roswell Conspiracy. Because idk,they dealt with aliens and I was like 7. Btw, Roswell Conspiracy is getting a reboot,so I might get around to rewatching it before that.

Not very familiar with that series. Perhaps they had a similar enough art style to make one remind you of the other? From what I've seen of it, it does look broadly similar.

MiB the series has a very similar problem as MiB 2, which I've read directly resulted in this problem being in MiB 2 (wouldn't surprise me). Because Jack Jeeves the alien pawn shop guy, Frank the Pug, and the coffee drinking alien worms were memorable characters in one or two scenes in the original movie, they have to return in bigger roles in what is functionally an out-of-context exaggerated caricature version of their original role. They all had whole episodes about them in the cartoon, most of which were really bad, and aliens couldn't just drink coffee in the break room; it became their own sole purpose in life and their entire alien species' culture revolved around it. It's like if Martian Manhunter's entire character got written around his fondess for Choc-O's. Then you have Frank. the original gag, as always the case in MiB, was that this unassuming person was an alien in disguise, and so Frank the Pug becomes....an alien that looks almost exactly like his dog form.

They also made the rookie mistake of A) Assuming J was a complete moron and slacker because Will Smith equals funny (he was almost more like a poorly written Fresh Prince than J) and B) Thinking "Edgar" was the bug's name, AND that the bug actually sounded like Vincent D'onofrio, even though in the movie we hear his original voice, and it sounded nothing like that.

On the other hand, Alpha was a genuinely great villain. A rogue MiB founder voiced by David Warner, who returns in multiple episodes, often with direct story continuity, and a drastically different visual design every episode (he stole alien body parts to upgrade his "final form" like a DBZ villain or somesuch)? Actually very impressive. He almost elevated the whole show by being in it.

Yeah,Roswell Conspiracies was pretty good...and pretty hard to find these days. It also shared a good chuck of its writing staff with TMNT 2003,Gargoyles and basically every other thing from that era. Also,both it and MiB involve secret agencies covering up the existence of aliens,so thats probably why I used to mix those two up.
Another Real Ghostbusters episode in that vein (at least the one I remember) had them going to Japan and fighting knockoffs of Godzilla and his enemies. There is also this annoying kid sidekick who speaks with Rs instead of Ls,and the whole episode just becomes a torture to watch.

Last Ronin #2 If this keeps up,it will be an amazing miniseries. Even if we saw plenty of bad futures before. Also,Karai wears Elektra's costume for some...okay,obvious reason.

Sai through the chest with the end getting stuck in the cloth?  ^_^

Also I think Karai's design has had some broad similarities to Elektra in most iterations.

It's really that good, eh? Interesting. The bad future premise is the reason I wasn't planning to opt into it actually.

Considering I pick up the trades for every TMNT that's connected to the IDW ongoing narrative (and also the crossovers) do you recommend this? I seem to recall you mentioning the IDW bringing future versions of characters anyway.

That's how she dies actually. Spoiler I guess,if the premise didn't already made that obvious.

Its a standalone,not really connected to IDW universe. Or Mirage,for that matter.  But I do recommend it. Its Eastman and Laird writing Ninja Turtles after some 20 years,what more could I say.

QuoteThat's how she dies actually. Spoiler I guess,if the premise didn't already made that obvious.

Yeah, not exactly a shocker (pun not intended). And that IS how Electra died. I didn't say WHO was getting the sai through the chest?

But the real question is, is it as good as better than "Same as it Never Was?" Because SaiNW might be my single favorite piece of TMNT media. It's close. Like top 3-5

QuoteIts Eastman and Laird writing Ninja Turtles after some 20 years,what more could I say.

I know one thing you could say: Did Eastman finally learn to draw?  :P

We still have 3 issues to go,so probably best to reserve judgment until then.
Eastman does the flashbacks,and I think he improved.

Speaking of bad futures,I receny found out that Mad Max 3-parter was meant to be the canon finale to the 2012 series,but Nicleodon overruled that. Ending the show on the fact your heroes failed and all of their efforts were pointless would be a real downer ending.

QuoteEastman does the flashbacks,and I think he improved.

Did he improve compared to the original run, or the hundreds of variant covers he did for the main IDW run?

Because those are all conceptually interesting, but, for me at least, the art lands at So Bad, It's Good.

A homage to the first X-Men comic cover, with 5 Turtles vs Karai instead of X-Men vs. Magneto? That's fun. Art could be a lot better. But TMNT art has always been a bit of a mixed bag.

QuoteSpeaking of bad futures,I receny found out that Mad Max 3-parter was meant to be the canon finale to the 2012 series,but Nicleodon overruled that. Ending the show on the fact your heroes failed and all of their efforts were pointless would be a real downer ending.

Yeah, I read that back in the day, and it would have been a pretty bad way to end it. I don't think it would particularly fit tone wise. But, as I mentioned before, the tone for that show moved along a silly-to-serious spectrum a lot. I actually do think the FW crossover arc was more appropriate, even if they went to the well to many times.

Same as it Never Was as the canonical finale to 2003 that....still probably wouldn't be very good, but it might feel a little more appropriate. Other than it being a Donnie-centic episode.

Back to the story, it's not hard to find, Ninjas that are of the body and of the mind Power Rangers/TMNT, I finished issue #2. Not too much to say:

1. Bebop and Rocksteady look fun in this art style (vey original-cartoon inspired). But they screwed up on the art. The script specifically says they have guns, and Bebop is using a minigun of some kind in the fight scene in issue #3, but it's not drawn in when Bebop shows up at the end of #2. I see that as a disconnect between the writer and the artist.

2. Leo and Red Ranger teaming up to fight Karai, who matches their moves style for style....only for Yellow Ranger to knock her out by throwing what I'm going to assume is a medicine ball at her head. I say medicine ball because the art in this book, while fun, colorful and dynamic, is sometimes so funky it's hard to tell what's going on. And the warehouse they're in has punching bags and what I'm assuming are medicine b*lls.

YR: Just hit her in the head guys. Don't overthink it.

I'm giving this a soft pass because it's fun even though it's probably extremely unlikely this would work on any of the major iterations of Karai.

Then they tie Karai up. I'm trying to decide if this is more or less undignified than the fight she had with Leo and Mikey for the Heart of Tengu.

3. Shredder, Bebop and Rocksteady versus Rita and her group. Fun stuff, just what you'd want to see in this crossover. Rita seems too powerful in this, but that could be my limited knowledge of Power Rangers, but I think I saw most of her appearances in the original run at least. Anyway, Shredder becomes the Green Ranger, something they heavily sold this book on, even putting it on the cover to #3. Because it just looks that damn cool.  (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/7/71/Shredderranger.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200109033205)

4. Shredder mentions that he has some allies in Dimension X. I guess Krang lent Shredd-Head the Technodrome while he's just chilling out back home. How odd.

Onto #3:

1. Mikey gets the PR to eat his style of pizza. You knew that was coming. Zach gives it a seal of approval. "I may never go back to pepperoni."

Fun fact: James Rolfe uploaded a video of a pizza part he hosted with his friends and wife where he actually made Mikey's favorite pizzas. Most of them were dubbed gross, but if I recall, the jelly bean one was dubbed the clear winner.

2. Billy: So Master Splinter, I've been thinking about this and... Did the mutagen turn you from a rat into a person or a person into a rat?

Splinter: Exactly.

Billy: Riiiiight.

I'm trying to decide if that's lazy writing or brilliant writing.

3. Ok, this is kinda interesting. Trini, the Yellow Ranger, is talking to Raph while sparring at the ol' punching bag, and says this to him:

"So....the isolation, the public perception?"

Raph: I'm NOT angry. Who said I'm angry? It was Mikey, wasn't it?

Trini: No, I'm just saying. Maybe it's not so bad. You don't have to go to school and lie to your friends and family....you can just be you.

The 2017 movie version of Trini was the first LGBT+ Power Ranger, and was largely reported as the "first gay superhero in film". She was lightly said to have "girlfriend troubles" and had a troubled relationship with her parents due to not being straight.

I'm unsure if this element of the character was carried over to the modern comics (a quick Google-fu failed me) but this is a mismash of TMNT canon already, and that's an interesting moment regardless)

I got around to Archie run,TMNT Adventure...and it is freaking weird. It uses the original cartoon aesthetic,but it has Turtles fighting the 4 horseman of the apocalypse and Splintet remembering Hiroshima. You know,for kids!
Krang takes over Shredders body facehugger style,that was funny.
Also,Turtles really want you to know that the world is dying because of pollution. They preach about it EVERY issues.

QuoteKrang takes over Shredders body facehugger style,that was funny.

Oh, is that where the 2003 cartoon got that idea from? Not that they couldn't have come up with it on their own, but if it counts as a deep cut TMNT reference, that's fun too.

QuoteAlso,Turtles really want you to know that the world is dying because of pollution. They preach about it EVERY issues.

I'm pretty sure as a kid I had a children's book about the TMNT teaching about pollution. And possibly one that was an anti-drug PSA.

Read a bit more of PR/TMNT:

Morphin' Time:

Donnie: So are your clothes under your costumes, or what?

Oh Donnie, asking all the important questions. That's why you're best turtle.  ^_^

I don't think so. Utroms were a thing in Mirage comics. And it looks different.
(https://miragelicensing.com/comics/archie/24/2404.jpg)

I love it.

:thumbup:

No, I was talking about Ch'rell jumping on people's faces as a way to attack them and the unproduced Fast Forward episode with a Triceraton Shredder, who'd be revealed to be C'Hrell on his face.  (https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/TriShreddatron)

I remember those issues of Krang controlling Shredder, did you also read the stuff where Raph wears a black uniform the makes it look like he's just a ninja trtle shadow?

Yes,the Intergalactic wrestling. Thats where Stump came from. Actually whole Dimension X/Trial of Krang arc of IDW comics is a tour thru Archie concepts.

There is also that time Turtles get involved into sectarian violence in Jerusalem and Mikey gets blinded by a Molotov. This happened in a comic based on the 80's cartoon. I can't stress that enough.

Quote from: detourne_me on March 02, 2021, 07:44:31 AM
I remember those issues of Krang controlling Shredder, did you also read the stuff where Raph wears a black uniform the makes it look like he's just a ninja trtle shadow?

Yep, I remember Rapheal's black uniform fondly. One of the first comics I ever had and one of the first TMNT comics had Raph in that uniform. I also had this really nifty TMNT calendar that used art from the comcis, including a scene of them taking part in Stump Wrestling, so I was able to piece together where that costume came from.

Haha!  Those comics are certainly weird, and the environmentalism gets incredibly preachy and strained, but I loved them as a kid.  They were my first introduction to more serious stories and the ideas that comics could be about something relatively weighty.  I still love them, though I see their flaws a lot more clearly these days.  If I had infinite time and resources, I'd do a section of my Turtles mod exploring several of the arcs from that book.  I still love the Future Shark trilogy, and I'm very sad that the Forever War sequel never got made.

And to make it even weirder, HT, all of that super serious and mature stuff grows out of a comic that was not just in the 'toon style, but which literally started out simply adapting cartoon episodes....and then just sorta' diverged.   :D

Oh yeah,Forever War is happening. Maybe.
  http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2019/04/tmnt-adventures-forever-war-is-about-to.html?m=1  (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2019/04/tmnt-adventures-forever-war-is-about-to.html?m=1)
And did I mention Hitlers brain is a time traveling villain in this comic?

Tmnt Urban Legends V1- it's the Image series in color. Which should also tell you the main problem with this... it's a 90's Image series. The run had some great stories, but they are all in the second half, unfortunately.
So you know,cyborgs, ninja chicks in S&M gear,Lord Komodo,more cyborgs. Then Splinter becomes a vampire bat,but the search for him gets derailed into a cross-country hunt for a cyborg supervillain. Which involves team-ups with Knight Watchman,Savage Dragon and Vanguard. Its Image, alright.
I'm really interested to see how the new ending differs from the official-fan ending,anyway.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on March 02, 2021, 06:03:30 PM
Oh yeah,Forever War is happening. Maybe.
  http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2019/04/tmnt-adventures-forever-war-is-about-to.html?m=1  (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2019/04/tmnt-adventures-forever-war-is-about-to.html?m=1)
And did I mention Hitlers brain is a time traveling villain in this comic?

Whaaaaaa.......?  I keep getting my mind blown!  I would LOVE that!  Here's hoping it will come together!

Ahh yes, Raph punching Hitler, and Hitler's time-traveling brain....haha....so bizarre and great.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the IDW collection of Adventures skips over the visits to Tibet and Mecca. You can probably guess why in both cases.

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 02, 2021, 04:17:33 PM
Haha!  Those comics are certainly weird, and the environmentalism gets incredibly preachy and strained, but I loved them as a kid.  They were my first introduction to more serious stories and the ideas that comics could be about something relatively weighty.  I still love them, though I see their flaws a lot more clearly these days.  If I had infinite time and resources, I'd do a section of my Turtles mod exploring several of the arcs from that book.  I still love the Future Shark trilogy, and I'm very sad that the Forever War sequel never got made.

And to make it even weirder, HT, all of that super serious and mature stuff grows out of a comic that was not just in the 'toon style, but which literally started out simply adapting cartoon episodes....and then just sorta' diverged.   :D

I had two TMNT Adventures as a kid that gave me a very good idea of what the run was like. One was a jungle adventure with Jaguar that featured Raph in the new costume and Null, which allowed me to appreciate the reference when a new version of Null showed up in the IDW run. The other, which was the first of the two I read, was an issue that featured the reality-warping Turnstone, everyone being in outer space, Krang contacting an alien ally that was a slimy insectoid creature, and the issue started with Rocksteady dreaming of being a regular Rhino in the African Savannah. It was strange, ambitious and intriguing, and I've often been tempted to revisit that series to get a better sense of just how imaginative and ambitious it really was.

That series also gave me the miniseries adapting the pilot miniseries, which I had as a comic-and-audio-cassette combo, and I loved that thing as a kid. It had completely different music and voices from the show, and was very well executed, at least in my memory. The way Shredder's group of robots was handled in particularly was great.

Chalk that up to another new TMNT cartoon I'd like to see if they simply must make more TMNT animated content. An adaptation of that run, even if a loose one.

QuoteTmnt Urban Legends V1- it's the Image series in color. Which should also tell you the main problem with this... it's a 90's Image series. The run had some great stories, but they are all in the second half, unfortunately.
So you know,cyborgs, ninja chicks in S&M gear,Lord Komodo,more cyborgs. Then Splinter becomes a vampire bat,but the search for him gets derailed into a cross-country hunt for a cyborg supervillain. Which involves team-ups with Knight Watchman,Savage Dragon and Vanguard. Its Image, alright.
I'm really interested to see how the new ending differs from the official-fan ending,anyway.

Another one I file under "conceptually interesting". Knight Watchmen is pretty amusing in an ironic way, since that's the name Raph used for his superhero persona in a later iteration.
Some of those concepts got solid revisiting in later iterations. "Lady Shredder" being an obvious one, but Raph as Shredder and Splinter as "Sliver" got used in TMNT 2003, and there was a female ninja in it called "Angel" (not sure if she was the inspiration for the Purple Dragon character from the 2003 and IDW run or not).

It certainly went in bold new directions, as did volume 4 of the Mirage run, which blew my mind when I read summaries of the issues online back in the day.

Like I said,the second half is way better. Raph becoming Shredder is probably his best story. Turtles and their allies fighting Triceratons -always cool. Btw,I guess the plan was to tie Horridus origins to Triceratons and migrate her to the TMNT supporting cast. Idk,is she still around in Savage Dragon? Is Savage Dragon still around for that matter?
Oh yeah,the ending is different from the previous one. Like the identity of Lady Shredder amoung other things. They both work for what they were supposed to do. The new one doesn't have to shuffle everyone in position for V4 so it can do it's own thing. Oh, and Leatherhead is still lost in space.

Now volume 4...it starts off interesting,but kinda goes nowhere. Even before being on definitive hiatus. Gameraph,April being a drawing...a lot of stupid things happen here.

Both of those runs were kinda like Jason Aaron's Avengers, at least as an outsider looking in, they're both so weird and conceptual that it definitely gets your attention and sticks in your mind. If nothing else "Kirby O'Neil" got a solid nod in the 2012. The actual character was a complete waste, but oh well.

Finally finished Power Rangers/TMNt.

-The PR as ninjas (Ninja Rangers? Ninja Storm?) led by Casey Jones (who enters the story by literally saying "Lawbreakers") and the TMNT plus April become Power Rangers. I'm choosing to believe Mikey being the Yellow Ranger without any reference to the Yellow Ranger being a girl is a reference to the fact that the Yellow Ranger was a man in the Japanese Sentai series.
-More examples of "of course you're going to do this": Bebop and Rocksteady turn giant and fight the Megazord. Shredder as the Green Ranger uses the Dragon Dagger flute to control the Dragon Zord and make it fight the Megazord piloted by the TMNT, the Power Rangers pilot a giant-sized Metal Head, and the TMNT exploit a one-line handwave to morph the Megazord into, yes, the Turtlezord. (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/0/05/Megaturle.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200529162540) And it looks exactly like you think. (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/6/6a/Turtlemegazord.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200324172240) Also they fight the Technodrome.
-Putty Foot Soldiers. Like you do.
-Metal Head attacks using electrical current. I'm choosing to believe that's a reference to the Turtle mech from the 2012 series.
-Stockman just barely makes it into this comic, and he looks like the original Fred Wolfe cartoon version. I think this is the only Nick-era version to use that design.
-Shredder and Rita get away and talk about bringing in Shred-Head's "Dimension X allies" (aka Krang and the Stone Warriors) and then the comic ends. In one of the most blatant sequel hooks ever. The lack of any Krang whatsoever in the PR/TMNT comic, gotta say, that's a missed opportunity right there.

Kimberly: Thanks for your help, April and for filling in.
April: Are you kidding? Thank you! I got to be the hero instead of just reporting on it. And bonus....I look fantastic in pink.

April in pink you say? It's been done.  (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/c/c3/April_archie.png/revision/latest?cb=20130615183739)  More than once, in fact.  (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/2/20/April_%282003%29_-_Back_to_the_Sewers.png/revision/latest?cb=20190913214553)

This thing is absolutely begging on its knees to have an animated movie made of it.

Next is the 5th Turtle's 1st mini...should be some kind of interesting. Checking out the trade....the mini was only 3 issues long, so they padded out the trade with TMNT Universe #6-9. Since I already read those, this should be one breezy read.  :)

The next trade is set to arrive in late April, so that's plenty of time to read other stuff.

IMO Volume 4 went too far into SF. Eastman and Laird work amazingly as a team,but solo they either go too far into SF (Laird) or into Frank Miller-isms (Eastman). And Turtles work best when they strike a balance.
Also my favorite moment in V4 is Leo commenting why they got different tattoo's: "Utroms couldn't tells us apart. We thought about getting different colored bandanas,but that would be dorky." Like dude,you got here on a Playmates Turtlebike,you don't have the moral highground.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on March 06, 2021, 03:50:21 PM
IMO Volume 4 went too far into SF. Eastman and Laird work amazingly as a team,but solo they either go too far into SF (Laird) or into Frank Miller-isms (Eastman). And Turtles work best when they strike a balance.

That's a good take on it. And a big part of why I appreciated the original Mirage run, but feel basically every direct adaptation improved on it. The Turtles' personalities are incredibly dry in the original run. That's something the adaptations added that definitely gave the entire franchise its legs.

QuoteAlso my favorite moment in V4 is Leo commenting why they got different tattoo's: "Utroms couldn't tells us apart. We thought about getting different colored bandanas,but that would be dorky." Like dude,you got here on a Playmates Turtlebike,you don't have the moral highground.

Did not know about that, and yeah, that feels like some serious sour grapes. I seem to recall at least one of those guys had some mixed feelings over the years about selling out with TMNT.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MEWVuf-svrI/Uy8qPmYn4mI/AAAAAAAAMB0/xNwPuu7I30A/s1600/5-4.jpg)
It was Mikey, actually. Damn,they really need different colored bandanas.
I assume this was intentional comedic hypocrisy since by this point,Mirage Turtles also walked around in broad daylight and sold toys.
Still,I don't really hate V4,it had plenty of interesting ideas. And I would really like to see it finished one day. If nothing else,the original turtles deserve a proper ending.
About the personalities,you are spot on,the OG Turtles don't evolve much as characters over time. How many times has Raph learned to control his anger over the years...

Which is one of the reasons I keep saying Donnie is best turtle these days. Whatever issues I have with the Nick era, and I have mine, they've made a concentrated effort to give Donnie more plots and content of his own and make him a lot funnier. Then Rise went too far and made him actively unlikable, but that's Rise for you.

Im back to reread Tales of the TMNT V2. Which I found to be a mixed bag the first time around. Also,Im beginning to think Mirage guys had the attention span of a goldfish since a whole lot of characters get introduced,teased for a sequel and forgotten about. And whole arcs (like the Foot Mystics) never get resolved. And not because of cancelation,I mean the comic ran for 6 years,there was time.
Anyway,Shredder coming back as a shark demon was awesome. And the issue with Klunk dying is still freaking hard to read.

QuoteAnyway,Shredder coming back as a shark demon was awesome.

I remember looking that one up back in the day and found it, along with the "Worms of Madness" (which was partially adapted into the 2003 cartoon) bizarrely fascinating. That, along with the Rat King as a deranged horror villain called "The Monster" showed the more freakishly sinister side of TMNT.

QuoteAnd the issue with Klunk dying is still freaking hard to read.

I can't recall if I knew about that one, but I would imagine it would be hard to get through. I had to have my favorite kitty put down last year and it is an emotionally draining ordeal.

I should add the the entire first volume of Tales got adapted into episodes of the 4Kids cartoon. Outside the issue with Complete Carnage and Radical, because they were not a thing in that continuity. "I,Monster" remains one of the best TMNT stories ever.

With a lot of V2,I felt they were chasing the next Leatherhead or Rat King. For example,Cha Ocho is built up as the next big supporting character,but he never does anything. Leo gives him a scar because "vengeance is not the Bushido way" (irony is lost on Leo),and then he will be kinda angry at Leo for much of the Volume 4. And go drinking with Raph once.

Something of a common complaint is that the Mirage continuity doesn't have interesting villains (or even a rogues gallery)...it does,if only the writers gave them a second apperence.

Well,Volume 2 of Tales was a wild ride. It had a few bad issues (Donny trying to bust up a WoW gold farming sweat shop) but most of it was pretty damn great. Too bad the Gang Wars arc never got finished (They introduced Hun and a bunch of other criminal bosses)...IDW,please hire Tristan Jones.
There were several crossovers with Wild West C.O.W-boys. They throw in Cudley because nostalgia.
Similar to villains...Mirage turtles don't really have a supporting cast outside of Casey,April and Shadow. You think somebody like Hattori (introduced in v1#9) would make more then 2-3 apperences. You would think that the niece of Hamato Yoshi would be important. You would think...

Back to IDW and issue #115. The big combat we were promised is pretty disappointing. And gets cut short by Jennika challenging Bebop and Rocksteady to a Battle of the bands. Which will also stop the bad future. 🙄
And they are doing that in the next issue. This is more random wackiness then Spencer's Spider-man.
The letter page is pretty funny. Somebody congratulates them on their masterful political analogies. And the answer is that it wasn't intentional. Come on,at least be honest about what you did here, nobody will buy that explanation.

So I haven't progressed through the newest TMNT trades I have right now (the main book and Batman/TMNT Vol. 3) so I can't say much about them, except that Mutant Town has REALLY killed my enthusiasm for IDW's TMNT run in a deeply disappointing way. I tend to forget often that I even HAVE the trades, let alone that I'm not actively reading them, thus other stuff gets the attention instead.

It's a shame, because the lead-up to Mutant Town, while a LOT to get through, was also really rather good.

It's too long, the changing creative teams hurt it, as I've said before, Jennika ends up being too much of a segmented character and not enough of "The fifth turtle", as in part of that five-person team, and while the three issue Jennika mini, while not bad, really didn't help matters.

Bebop and Rocksteady show up pretending to be cultists at the end of the mini, complete with robes, as part of a handoff for a bogus mutant cure everyone wants to get their hands on, and not only do the characters never question this, not only are Bebop and Rocksteady, traditionally dumber than mud, smart enough to pull off this wholly unnecessary con like they couldn't just brute force their way to getting what they want like they've done before in this run, not only are we never told why they're even going to this much trouble, but they job horribly as Jennika jumps over and around them to get the McGuffin and leave. While Bebop and Rocksteady look pretty good in the art style of that miniseries, it's a pretty weak showing by them and feels like a stunt to get them in the book to boost sales (even though them being there is a surprise reveal). It doesn't leave me chomping at the bit for the Battle of the Bands in the main book.

The trade I have does feature nice art, Karai finally shows up again, and ends with the reveal of Tokka and Rahzar, who I gotta admit, do look real nice in that art style. But as you said earlier, the book drags its feet getting to them.

QuoteThe letter page is pretty funny. Somebody congratulates them on their masterful political analogies. And the answer is that it wasn't intentional. Come on,at least be honest about what you did here, nobody will buy that explanation.

I'm a bit curious, since I read the trades and they don't include the letters. I'm tempted to see if I can track down a version of the book that includes the letters to see that to see what I think. It's certainly possible. The editors and the writers are not the same people (assuming the editor answers the letters) and the Transformers: Beast Wars book by IDW is, as indicated clearly in its letters page, shockingly, edited by people who don't know the first thing about Transformers.  :o

Batman/TMNT Vol. 3:

It's Amalgam mashed up with Crisis on Infinite Earths, dubbed "Crisis in a Half Shell". Art's a mixed bag, but otherwise kinda neat. Harley Quinn is Karai, which looks cool but character wise is so wrong I don't know where to begin. Clayface and Croc are Bebop and Rocksteady, and in what I can only call laziness, Deadshot is also here as a random Foot Ninja who is also Deadshot, so it's Deadshot with a red and gold costume. Working for Shredder/Joker. I was baffled by it then, and I'm baffled by it now.

Krang's robot body is the Anti-Monitor's armor, which is a great idea and looks less impressive than you would think in the comic's art style.
The Technodrome in this book is upgraded into the "Ultra Technodrome" and I don't exactly know why.

Yeah, I have not been loving the Mutant Town direction.  There are some good bits, but in general, I feel like this dilutes their world a bit too much.  I can't quite put my finger on what isn't working, but the stories aren't singing like they have been, and I feel like Jennika as a turtle is way less interesting than she was as a young woman seeking meaning.  At least a small part of that is probably that her color is too similar to Mikey's, so I lose track of who is who, and she sort of blends in to the background of the others.  I'm still enjoying the series, but I'm not loving it the way I was.

I really lost interest,since it basically became "Jennika,guest starring the TMNT". Turtles basically did nothing for 16 issue while we followed Jennika setting up a soup kitchen and gathering a band and Mona Lisa trying to impeach Hob. All this is keeping us from the actual interesting stuff that we are invested in,like Shredder, LeatherKrang and Burrnow Island.
Btw,that battle of the band is just the most pointless bet ever. If Jennika wins,Bebop and Rocksteady have to leave Mutant Town. Why would they honor that and how do you enforce that? And if they win,they get to own a bar. What's the downside of giving them a ruin in a walled off part of NY? Literally,the FW cartoon had bigger stakes.

Well, to be fair, getting super (and irrationally) invested in a battle of the bands seems very in character for Bebop and Rocksteady...

We were building towards this battle of the bands for 16 issues. 16. And we are supposed to care if Bebop and Rocksteady win a bar in a quarantined zone?
Unless there is some sort of course correction,I don't really see this title lasting for much longer. And when it gets unceremoniously canceled,like every TMNT title to date, it's going to suck because I was invested in this continuity for years.
It's even weirder when you account that Last Ronin is IDWs best selling book EVER. You would think they would draw some conclusions about what the fans want from their Ninja Turtles. And it's not battles of the bands or Jennikas soup kitchen. Clearly,since the main title went from 12k to 10k in sales last time we saw any numbers.

Well, hopefully we'll see a course correction.  It's been so fantastic for so long, I'm willing to ride out a rough patch.  I rode out a much rougher patch for Aquaman, only to have them cancel the book on me, the jerks.  :P

Idk,I hope we will eventually get to the actual story we cared about for years,but Im not that optimistic. I think IDW is taking this very ideologically,and that they would rather see it fade away then give the fans what they want.

I may have said this before, but I think a lot of this has to do with the writers. Tom Waltz and Kevin Eastman were the guys up to 100. Sophie Campbell took over the book's writing after that. I've always liked Campbell's art, but writing wise, it absolutely feels like when a different writer takes over a book and the direction and style changes noticeably. This happened in the minis often, but this is the main book.

It also reminds me a lot of the farm arc. Particularly in Mirage continuity where the farm arc was an enormous filler arc filled to the absolute gills with fill in stories by different creative teams that looked and felt completely different in tone, approach and direction (also when I fell out of the Mirage run, as it happens). This is bit like that. Not nearly as aimless, but still noticeably someone else's work.

QuoteWell, to be fair, getting super (and irrationally) invested in a battle of the bands seems very in character for Bebop and Rocksteady...

Generally that's true, but the IDW versions of Bebop and Rocksteady were previously depicted as violent and sadistic, and I've found they've been much less dangerous in the years since they took great glee in almost murdering poor Donnie. Such as the Jennika mini I mentioned earlier. Even before Donnie they were introduced with Karai sending them out to settle a crime turf war by themselves and their battle with the TMNT and the Mutanimals resulted in them leveling a building and the TMNT and Mutanimals not actually being able to beat them in a straight fight.

You know, somehow I didn't realize that Waltz had left the book.  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 

As for Bebop and Rocksteady, while they've been fairly violent in the IDW version, they haven't been motivated primarily by violence.  They are out to have fun, primarily, and one of the ways they do that is by beating the heck out of things.  But they also have other motivations, which we get to see in some of their minis.  And those are a lot of fun.

QuoteAnd those are a lot of fun.

While all of that is true, those were also a lot more fun than Mutant Town. Bebop and Rocksteady being used poorly, or more poorly in recently stories, can be an example of the growing frustration with this era of the book.

I finally finished the newest trade the other night, and it's not a big improvement, but there is a little bit a liked. Baxter and April, mostly, Karai's good for the one scene she's in, and we do get the 5 turtles teaming up, which was alright. Mikey also claims his use of humor is a coping mechanism, which normally I don't know if I'd buy, but given what they've been through lately, I can actually buy in the context of this book.

But it says a lot that the cover used for the trade doesn't feature the TMNT at all, and they're not on the back cover either. It's the little mutant kids. Every other main cover for the issues in the trade has them, including one that used the Slithery, the mutant creature the arc heavily revolved around, but they chose them.

Speaking of which, the trades are once again leaving out the annuals. Which is absolutely inexcusable considering ALL of the interesting villain plots (not counting Stockman and Karai bringing in Tokka and Rahzar) are in the annual.  It's right on the cover.  (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/0/02/Annual2020.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200730080406) I'll have to get it digital in order to read it. They'll pad out the Jennika trade with old material, but they'll leave out a plot important annual that's been out for almost a year. The book was delayed by a month because of Covid, but it's apparently not included in the next trade either.

#117 So this hyped up Battle of the bands lasts for roughly 3 pages and ends with Bebop and Rocksteady going "You guys are good,we can't win" and quit. What the hell was the actual point of any of this? You build up this stupid thing for several issues only for the bad guys to quit without even trying? I mean,the idea of a musical showdown in a comic book is stupid to begin with,but at least commit to it,if you hyped it up. And speaking of pointless plots,we are back to trying to impeach Old Hob. Oh gods,they are still sticking to this immediately dated plot. During this whole run,Hob did slightly more then Ninja Turtles,so why should we be invested in him staying the boss of Furrytown?

 :wacko:

It's like Im in an abusive relationship with this comic...why do I keep coming back to this?
Anyway... pacing is still horrible. There are 2 issues focusing in Sally Pride starting a protest against Hob. Jayzus K Tana,who cares? Also,April discovers Stockman is doing something evil and Weasel Kids kill somebody. Turtles are barely around and do nothing. Oh yeah,Mikey has a podcast still.

You know, HT, I've got half a dozen issues sitting on my shelf...ha, and your descriptions have really killed my drive to read them!  :P  This is disappointing.

You are not really losing anything by reading them. Not gaining anything either. Unless you're a big fan of Jennika and Sally Pride.
But...there is a tease for a big Pantheon event and the return of Tom Waltz starting from 2021 Annual. So Im kinda hoping that will be better then this.

Yeah, the ones I read didn't actually get my Turtle Van/Battle Shell revved up. And the next two trades don't come out until Sept. and Oct. And I'm stubbornly putting off reading Batman/TMNT Vol. 3 until I finish Crisis because it's heavily based on it.

Thank goodness for Transformers Beast Wars. But I still miss Ghostbusters.

QuoteBut...there is a tease for a big Pantheon event and the return of Tom Waltz starting from 2021 Annual. So Im kinda hoping that will be better then this.

See that I want to read. But first I gotta catch a Comixology sale so I can finally my hot little mits on that annual. *sigh* which isn't included in the next trade.

It's not out yet; I believe it should be out this week or the next one. The 2021 annual,that is.

Indeed. I done slipped out. It's the 2020 Annual, which is even worse.
my theory - and I hope this is what IDW is going for - is they'll reprint that Annual when it's actually relevant to the main book. I still vehementally disagree with the notion, since I've been waiting to read that thing while slogging through the filler saga. But there is an arguement to made for it. But I don't trust them after they left out 2 annuals prior that were important to the plot but padded out a 3 issue mini with the Mirage Fugitoid one-shot and padded out the Jennika 3-issue mini with reprints of older stories.

I did look at the cover for the new annual, which does look epic.

So the annual is out and it certainly promising. Thou it's mostly Rat King talking about visiting his siblings. You can guess who he is talking to and where he is going with that from the start,but it's actually setting up things we want to see. Like,we are back to the actual plot,just in the aftermath of #100. Kinda hyped,not gonna lie.

Alright, I finally read #109-116, and your frustration with them is pretty darn justified, HT.  All of this seems so...juvenile.  It feels like one of my female freshmen would write, focused on relationships, but without a clear sense of purpose and without nuance or coherence of thought.  There are a lot of cool ideas here, tons in fact, but they're jumbled together and poorly explored, with lots of characters acting stupidly for extra DRAMA and ANGST, despite how silly it all is. 

Spoiler

Mona Lisa screaming at Mikey because he is choosing to go help his family protect the town from rampaging monsters rather than make signs for a protest is probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen in this book.  And in general, all this focus on protests and politics feels like a very immature attempt at topicality, and it just doesn't work in context.  First of all, why in the freaking world is it only this far into the whole mess that someone has said, 'hey, you know what, being turned into an inhuman monster against my will was sorta' uncool, I'm slightly miffed at Hob, the mutant terrorist who did this to me and uncounted others, including children.'  That seems like it probably should have been, I don't know, the first, and a rather universal, reaction.  Everyone has been surprisingly enthusiastic and chill about being turned into mutants. 

Like I said, there's a ton of cool stuff here, but it's drowning in B and C material.  Most of these plotlines and characters would really be better off relegated to some type of spin-off title dedicated to the life and culture of Mutant Town.  It just doesn't really fit with this book and its focus and themes.  Despite that, the idea of Lita coming back from the future, stealing the time scepter from Renet (fun!), and all of that is really cool.  The idea of a battle of the mutant bands is also really awesome, but it's something that should be a one or two issue absurdist jaunt, not a super-serious focus of the entire arc.  It was cool to see Bebop and Rocksteady take on their alter-egos, after a fashion.  I'm actually mildly tempted to put Tokah and Razor into my TMNT mod just for that kind of matchup. 

You know, it's always cool to have an issue or two of downtime, where you see the characters going about their lives, healing, and developing relationships, and that is a staple of the TMNT books.  But you've got a problem when that becomes the only thing you do for issue after issue after issue.  And there is SO MUCH MELODRAMA!  Everyone is navel-gazing and emoting and talking about how terrible their lives are, and it grates after a while.

On a related note, Jennika, who was a really cool character that I thoroughly enjoyed while she was human, is now basically unrecognizable in more ways than one and not nearly as interesting.  I had my doubts about her becoming a fifth Turtle, as I felt it messed up the dynamic, but that might have been okay if they had managed to keep her interesting and compelling.  I really just have zero interest in what they're doing with her though, other than brief moments of light in her interactions with Karai.

So, this is all a terrible shame, as the Turtles book has routinely been fantastic and among my favorite comics.  If Tom Waltz wasn't coming back soon, I'd probably drop it because it's just not really been worth reading for a big stretch.

Nice to know we're not the only ones underwhelmed by the Mutant Town arc, Benton. The last trade of the main book I got stops at 11 and the next one isn't out until Oct, so you guys are both ahead of me. It feels like either the filler saga or a wholly different book/run. Also I specifically looked for the 2020 annual at the comic book store on FCBD as I would have picked it up if it was there as it would have been discounted. I'm hoping it'll be reprinted when they get to the new Waltz stories. Otherwise I'll get it digital on sale at some point.

I do indeed agree about Jennika. I gave my thoughts on her as a character much earlier in this thread. And her first mini. Second one's released Sept 7. I'll probably get it because I get all of them, but these ones are putting my dedication to the test. The first one was a ok-ish 3-issue filler story with reprinted short stories padding out the trade, and the second one....eh I'll see.

Haha, nope SS, definitely not alone.  I imagine we can't be the only ones to think this either.

Yeah, Jennika may be the biggest disappointment of all.  She was such a cool character, one of my favorite additions to that excellent last set of arcs, and now I just can't care about her.

Last 2-3 issues had letters from readers critical of the current direction. And if they actually bothered to publish them,there has to be a lot of those. Editors answer is that their sales have never been higher. I would love to see some numbers there.
And Jennika is,no kidding, writers DeviantArt turtle OC. Which explains why this is Jennika - sometimes starring the TMNT.
It sucks that Im invested in this comic. It was the first TMNT comic I actually followed month to month.

QuoteLast 2-3 issues had letters from readers critical of the current direction. And if they actually bothered to publish them,there has to be a lot of those. Editors answer is that their sales have never been higher. I would love to see some numbers there.

That came up a lot with Amazing Spider-Man post OMD and we've discussed comics sales in the past and it's dubious because there are a lot of different factors. Digital sales, trade sales, those Loot Crate things, ect.

Plus sales doesn't mean people like it or love it. I buy all the trades and I don't love Mutant Town.

QuoteAnd Jennika is,no kidding, writers DeviantArt turtle OC. Which explains why this is Jennika - sometimes starring the TMNT.

As me and Benton both said, she was a ok character who just doesn't have a good enough team dynamic with the TMNT. As bad as the writing on Next Mutation was, it had plenty of content featuring Venus playing off the other Turtles.

Now, to be fair,  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s) I've read that the artist who designed Jenny designed her knowing full well she'd be the 5th turtle, and I can buy that. For me I'd say it's an example of a good (or ok) character used poorly, and I see a lot of examples of that in tv shows and movies and such. I've also seen what I consider bad characters used well.

Yes, it is a shame. I really liked Shredder in Hell, and while City at War (the arc that ended with #100) was really long, it was also really good. And most of that went nowhere for the entirety of Mutant Town.

Well,the last sales numbers are from the early 100's (before the disease that shall go unmentioned) and even then it was doing around 15k. So Idk, I'm not buying the "doing better then ever" part.And iDW is not shy with Last Ronin numbers,so are they hiding something with the ongoing?

Yeah, I find that about sales rather surprising and hard to believe, but your point is a good one, SS.  Just because people like us haven't dropped the book doesn't mean that they like what is going on in it.  Heck, I stuck with Aquaman through two bad runs.  This run did come off long string of great runs, and people are pretty heavily invested in this book after a hundred+ issues.

SS, yeah, Shredder in Hell was really great!  That one surprised the heck out of me.  This is, undoubtedly, the best version of Shredder ever.  He's darn compelling.

I'd go stronger than that on Jennika.  She was better than okay; she was pretty great...as a supporting character.  But she doesn't interest me as a protagonist, especially in turtle form.

HT, I think it's a little unfair to say that it's the Jennika show.  After all, each of the Turtles got various focus stories over the course of this run.  It just feels more egregious because she's plot-central in the battle of the bands nonsense and because it feels inordinate because she doesn't really feel like she belongs center stage in the first place.  :P

QuoteSS, yeah, Shredder in Hell was really great!  That one surprised the heck out of me.  This is, undoubtedly, the best version of Shredder ever.  He's darn compelling.

Agreed. And you know how defensive I get about the 2003. I never knew I needed a Shredder face turn in my life....so of course he doesn't appear in the main book again for years.  :(

QuoteHT, I think it's a little unfair to say that it's the Jennika show.  After all, each of the Turtles got various focus stories over the course of this run.  It just feels more egregious because she's plot-central in the battle of the bands nonsense and because it feels inordinate because she doesn't really feel like she belongs center stage in the first place.

It also doesn't help that she has two minis all to herself. I don't hate the book right now, but it feels a bit like the played-out-as-hell farm arc minus the farm.  :P

Except, the farm arc was full of great characterization and not nearly so long and drawn out, ha!  I don't hate the book, but I'm really not enjoying it, which is a far cry from when this book was routinely one of the best comics I read in a year.

Well, I'm actually okay with Shredder not being around for a good while.  I'm not sure what else they can do with him...though, actually, now that I think about it, I think there's great potential for a Magneto/X-Men turn now that Splinter is dead.  I think that could be sort of amazing, actually....

Quote from: BentonGrey on August 20, 2021, 04:34:19 AM
Except, the farm arc was full of great characterization and not nearly so long and drawn out, ha! 

Depends on which version of the farm arc you're talking about. They've done it in a few different iterations of TMNT. Some did it much, much better than others (cough 2012)

Same beat it here. Not a love nor hate thing rather it's in so many oddball directions it's hard to connect to it. Also I actually like the new characters like Jennika myself. I think she's a well met character though I think higher of some of the other new faces but at the same time between all them I feel they're detracting a lot from the Turtles themselves emotionally and with development. Granted I'm an ubernerd when it comes to the Turtles, coming of age stuff and what not so it can go low and there's that fond nostalgia. Though as above *cough as well* there have been some runs that were just indigestible.

Yeah, SA, there are several new characters I like too.  Like I said, I even like(d) Jennikia, though I really don't think they've done much good with her since she got mutated. 

I think it's fine stuff but they made a niche and well, they have to fill the niche. Niche is of course she becomes a mutant and then the focus is on how she feels about it. Niche's are of course a double edged sword in writing, they tend to lock you off from expanding on a character and that's what I feel with this. But more that focus on any number of umpteen new characters and a detraction from focus on the main characters, the four Turtles in this case whom I read the books for. Like I don't mind the side series for characters like her and else but when they become the focal point of the series and it seems anyone from her to pig punk girl or cute as button weasel has it loses my interest a bit. I read this series of course and followed the exploits of these four brothers and continue to see what developments happen for them next. But it seems like they've been relegated to backdrop and I don't like that. An alternative The Last Ronin does the service of focusing directly on the mains and where live as taken them. I'd like to read more of a vibe like that from the main series. So like if they want to expand to these characters sure thing but make a separate book for that, Mutant Town or whatever title sells. I mean I'll say I don't care about the little weasel characters but they're two dimensional so there isn't much to care about. That type of character is meant to act as a prop, comedy relief. So not be the stories focus. Then it goes onto whichever fresh character has been introduced, I can't keep up at this point and away from the mains like the Turtles, April, Casey (he has cameos now you know?). I just don't dig it. I get being stuck in a writing rut but I also know about creating one via bad form. Not a big knock though either, this stuff is still well written and some of the better out there. Though when it comes to IDW I'll put those Transformers books above it. I had no interest in reading those at all, just sort of impulse buy one day and the characterization and dialogue alone is worth the ticket price.

#124 is a silent issue,so at least the writing improved a bit. And Shredder flies around like Green Lantern or something...