Freedom Reborn

Exactly what it says on the tin: What's your favorite Star Trek show of all time? I got the idea when we were all talking about our favorite shows over on the Movies&TV thread. My personal favorite Trek show (and one of my favorite shows all time to boot,) was DS9, but I'd wager there's someone out there who thinks different. Maybe they prefer TOS's sense of adventure and preference towards allegory? Perhaps like they like TNG's thoughtful drama and morality plays. Or quite possibly, they just like looking at Seven of Nine's arse. ;) Either way, whatever Trek show's your favorite, this is the place to vote. Let's see which is truly the final frontier. ;)

TOS. It seemed like literally any type/genre of story was possible. We had a western episode, a tense 'submarine warfare' episode, a gangster episode, a couple Native American episodes, etc-- and every one was very interesting. It's like the Twilight Zone, but colorful, and with the same likable main characters in every story.
I really like TNG as well, because the majority of the time they 'got' what made TOS great. Still, TOS is my favorite.

Quote from: Ouflah on July 08, 2017, 01:43:59 PM
TOS. It seemed like literally any type/genre of story was possible. We had a western episode, a tense 'submarine warfare' episode, a gangster episode, a couple Native American episodes, etc-- and every one was very interesting. It's like the Twilight Zone, but colorful, and with the same likable main characters in every story.
I really like TNG as well, because the majority of the time they 'got' what made TOS great. Still, TOS is my favorite.

Oh, those last two were interesting all right. Not for the right reasons of course, but they were still very interesting nonetheless. ;)

I do really like TOS. That's where I started in my Star Trek journey, and it's what got me hooked on the franchise in the first place. Mind you, Shatner can't act for beans, but the rest of the show manages to be an engrossing mix of action, adventure, drama, and philosophy, all in a neat little 40+ minute package. Some parts of the show haven't aged that well, but it for all intents and purposes still still stands the test of time to this day. And the soundtrack was a heck of a lot better than any ST show ever since, so that's another thing in its' favor. ;)

That said, as good as TOS is, and as brilliant as TNG was, I can't help but feel that DS9 blows both of them out of the water. The characters are among the most fleshed out and compelling the franchise has ever seen; the major powers and empires are more fleshed out and believable than in any Trek show before or since; and the big story arc that runs throughout the series is, by the end anyway, epic and grandiose, and gives the writers of DS9 a lot more to work with than, say, the Voyager team, who were struggling to come up with ideas before the first episode of that show even aired. All three shows (TOS, TNG and DS9,) are great and groundbreaking, but like how TNG was a step forward for Trek, DS9 is the same way, only more so.

I agree with Oufla, with one addition. I'm old enough to have seen most of the original series in its' original run. There was nothing like it before. Lots of kid stuff that was good when I was a kid, but I was starting to grow up by the time TOS showed up. This was different, these were stories with "meat" on them, stories that had ideas and situations to think about (and still managed to be fun most of the time). Twilight Zone was similar in many ways (and different in a lot more), but I was too young to really appreciate it at the time. It had been gone for a few years before we started on that five year mission...

Every Trek series had its' points, each had a lot of excellent episodes, but without the first show, I don't think any of them would have happened. There might not have been Star Wars, either, but the two kind of fed off each other over the decades.

Odd crossing of this thread and my comments in the favorite TV show thread: one of the episodes on Have Gun- Will Travel today was a kind of take on The Taming of the Shrew, an amusing tale written by some guy named Roddenberry. The other was Paladin's "Genesis"...

Im going with Deep Space 9.I do have a bit of a soft spot for Voyger,however.

Great question, Star Trek is one of my favourite franchises. And my favourite show is:

Deep Space Nine, hands down. One of my favourite shows of all time, and a very formulative show for my feelings on plotting and storytelling. The full cast is great and I loved how they developed everyone over the run.

My rankings for Trek go like this:

1 DS9
2 TNG - While DS9 is my favourite I think this might actually be the best show. My favourite cast as well.
3 Vovager - My second favourite cast. I actually really liked this show but the plots often weren't as strong as TNG, and it lacked the major arcs I loved from DS9. Being on at the same time as DS9 really hurt it for me. I recently rewatched the whole show and it held up really well.
4 Enterprise. The cast hurts this one a lot. There isn't anyone I really love and it leans really heavily on the mainest characters.
5 TOS - For what it's worth I haven't seen the whole show, but the few episodes I've seen always felt old and I'm not much for older shows generally. The original airings were way before my time. TNG is my original Trek.

Quote from: Podmark on July 09, 2017, 04:27:44 AM
5 TOS - For what it's worth I haven't seen the whole show, but the few episodes I've seen always felt old and I'm not much for older shows generally. The original airings were way before my time. TNG is my original Trek.

Well, TOS was way before my time too, but I still watched the whole thing. Just because something feels old doesn't mean it's not good. And TOS is by all means good. But if you don't want to watch it, that's fine too. Different strokes for different folks.

TNG here. Best cast ever, set the stage for DS9 and Voyager, Patrick Stewart!, Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, Data!, some of the most innovative and influential sci-fi tech ever...

DS9 for me, easily. It just had an overall more interesting cast... Odo, Quark, Sisko, Bashir, Kira, even a returning Worf. Where a lot of other Trek series focus a lot on the squeeky clean "look at how advanced we are" Starfleet, DS9 really breaks that down and allows us to dig deeper into the humanity and faults of these characters. Also, Sisko punching Q in the face early on is amazing even if the rest of the episode is meh.

In general,I think the static nature of DS9 allowed them to really show the consequences of the crews action as opposed to- We find a Planet-of-Hats,teach them why their ignorant ways are bad and bugger off at warp speed.

Quote from: Spade on July 12, 2017, 07:35:44 AM
In general,I think the static nature of DS9 allowed them to really show the consequences of the crews action as opposed to- We find a Planet-of-Hats,teach them why their ignorant ways are bad and bugger off at warp speed.

PICARD: Mission Report Data?
DATA: Well sir, after agreeing to help Planet Oftheweek with its' famine problems by teching the tech to the techtech, we instead somehow managed to make the famine even worse and cause a drought besides, forever ruin relations between us and the planets' inhabitents, and -- oh yes -- awaken a deadly and ancient alien being who said inhabitants refer to as both an Elder God and the Destroyer of Worlds. Other than that, the mission went exactly according to plan.
PICARD: ...Ensign Goldshirt?
ENSIGN GOLDSHIRT: Yes sir?
PICARD: Prepare to bugger off at warp speed seventy zillion, will you?
ENSIGN: GOLDSHIRT: Yes sir. Preparing to bugger off at warp speed seventy zillion and then somehow die a gruesome death because I picked the wrong color this morning.
PICARD: That's the spirit.

I mean... you're not entirely wrong, but in TNG that would be Ensign Goldshirt, since they flipped the gold and red uniforms for TNG (Red became command officers and Gold became security officers, IE: the ones who always die)

Quote from: Tomato on July 13, 2017, 12:48:18 AM
I mean... you're not entirely wrong, but in TNG that would be Ensign Goldshirt, since they flipped the gold and red uniforms for TNG (Red became command officers and Gold became security officers, IE: the ones who always die)

Honestly, I don't think it's that big a deal, but whatever, I changed it anyway. Ensign Goldshirt is ready for duty. ;)

TOS all the way, with TNG a respectable second.  Those are the only two that really interest me.  I never really watched DS9, though I've heard I should.  To me, it always just felt like a less awesome Babylon 5.

Quote from: Podmark on July 09, 2017, 04:27:44 AM
5 TOS - For what it's worth I haven't seen the whole show, but the few episodes I've seen always felt old and I'm not much for older shows generally. The original airings were way before my time. TNG is my original Trek.

Pod...Pod, Pod, Pod....you sound like my students.  And that's not a good thing.  :P

Haha, I love the classic show.  It's just got endless amounts of charm, and as silly as it can be, it is incredibly important in terms of culture, genre, and even technology.  They really created something special there.

TNG I can enjoy.  It's the Trek I grew up with, really.  My Dad would watch the original show with me on Saturdays, but TNG was on when I was a kid.  Still, it's too soap-opera-y for me at times.  It also has its moments, though, and "Darmok," despite it's very 90s quality, is still one of my favorite Star Trek episodes of all time.

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 13, 2017, 03:13:38 AM
TOS all the way, with TNG a respectable second.  Those are the only two that really interest me.  I never really watched DS9, though I've heard I should.  To me, it always just felt like a less awesome Babylon 5.

Eh, once DS9 gets rolling, it's about on par with B5 IMO. Keep in mind that it took a bit for B5 to really get going too. That first season wasn't bad, but like DS9, it took a bit for the show to really find it's mojo and get the kinks out. (And get an actual decent lead. ;)) But it's in S2 that DS9 gets good and in S3 that it really gets good, and by S4, it's become a tour de force. And on top of that, B5 starts to lose its' mojo in the last season thanks to coming up with a post-script season at the last minute, whereas DS9's last season (some patchiness in the middle of the last season aside,) is still more or less just as good as what came before, especially in that final stretch of episodes. So it's not that much better or worse than B5 when you get down to it. They're both amazing shows, and they both deserved to be watched.

Part of the appeal though really aside from the amazing characters and ongoing arcs is how much it expands on the major powers, especially the Federation. If you're the kind of Trek fan that's really interested in learning more about the world and taking a deeper look at its respective cultures, then DS9 is just that much more appealing, especially if you didn't find some of them (like the Federation,) all that interesting or believable to begin with. But it that just doesn't interest you, then while it's certainly not a dealbreaker, DS9 isn't going to wow you as much as it might. Though the characters and arcs are what still really make it a heck of a show.

Also, how is TNG' Soap Opera'? Because while the stories were certainly character-driven, they didn't always actually explore the characters that much when you got down to it.  It was more about placing just about any given character into a general situation and having them react to it. So, no offense, but saying it's 'Soap Opera' doesn't really make a lick of sense to me.

Quote from: kkhohoho on July 13, 2017, 12:45:17 AM
-- oh yes -- awaken a deadly and ancient alien being who said inhabitants refer to as both an Elder God and the Destroyer of Worlds.

And apparently its dangerous because it just kicked the cr@p out of Worf. :|

As for DS9,what kk said,it does have a bit of a slow start but its worth it.Sometimes it takes a bit while it figures out its characters(coughBashircough),but it does have some incredible character development over the years(Nog,for example). Later on,we get some holodeck episodes that are pretty much padding(Also,an oft repeated complain about Voyager,but thats another story).And Im pretty sure Dukat/Wraiths plot was meant to last another season instead of well...30 minutes.
What most older fans seem to hold against it is that its a bit grey-er then the rest.One of the main characters is a former terrorist for one thing.This was before 2001.We meet Federations version of the CIA.And a Klingon lawyer,oddly enough.
It seems a bit worst then it is when I say it like this.But in general,if you liked TOS and TNG,I dont think you will like DS9.

Quote from: Spade on July 13, 2017, 06:42:56 AM
But in general,if you liked TOS and TNG,I dont think you will like DS9.

I liked TOs and TNG, and I loved DS9.

Quote from: kkhohoho on July 13, 2017, 11:29:35 AM

Quote from: Spade on July 13, 2017, 06:42:56 AM
But in general,if you liked TOS and TNG,I dont think you will like DS9.

I liked TOs and TNG, and I loved DS9.

I didnt say it was a rule.  :rolleyes:

I watch a lot of science fiction reviewer SFDebris, who (and I'm sure this will shock no one) covers a TON of star trek, and he pointed out a key difference between DS9 and it's sister show (Voyager) that pretty much sums up a lot. When Voyager had an annoying character that fans reacted negatively to (Neelix) they just kept trying to shove him down audience's throats without really changing the character in any way. When DS9 had an annoying character that grated on fans nerves (Bashir) they reworked the character, expanded his backstory, toned down the elements that made him frustrating (he was an overt womanizer early on, but that got stripped away pretty fast) and gave him some of the more interesting plotlines in the show.

That having been said... Benton, if you watch nothing else in DS9, you HAVE to watch Trials and Tribble-ations. It was an episode made for the series' anniversary, and it features everyone going back in time to "the trouble with tribbles" wearing full 60s garb. It's freaking amazing.

Fair enough, guys.  I should probably give it a shot one of these days.  And yes, B5's first season was various shades of rough.  When I introduced Lady Grey to it (and, by extension, to sci-fi at large, really), I just started her on season 2.  Sadly, it looks like Netflix only has DS9 season 1.

Kk, how is TNG soap-opera-ish?  Well, I have to say, the question catches me off guard, as it seems relatively self-evident to me.  Let's see, it's much more 'talky' than TOS, there's a character who is there purely to provide emotional exposition, the melodrama is occasionally turned up to 11, the stories are sometimes driven, not by characters, but by character's emotions, and the whole thing has that fuzzy patina of low-budget 90s day-time TV.  :P  I am, of course, exaggerating a bit for effect, but yeah, I think soap opera is a good descriptor for the show's excesses.  Keep in mind, I didn't say the show was a soap opera, I said that it could feel too much like one for my tastes at times.  The better episodes feel like Star Trek.  The worst ones feel like All My Children in space.  :lol:

This is partially just a result of the show's era, as is that very 60s flavor in TOS, but, as I understand it, it is also sometimes a product of Gene Roddenberry's meddling, where they sacrificed story for message and naval-gazing. 

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 13, 2017, 08:37:39 PM
Fair enough, guys.  I should probably give it a shot one of these days.  And yes, B5's first season was various shades of rough.  When I introduced Lady Grey to it (and, by extension, to sci-fi at large, really), I just started her on season 2.  Sadly, it looks like Netflix only has DS9 season 1.

Odd. Last I checked, it had all 7 seasons. Heck, that's how I watched the show, and I just watched some Season 7 eps last month. Maybe you should try looking again. They should all be there.

Quote
Kk, how is TNG soap-opera-ish?  Well, I have to say, the question catches me off guard, as it seems relatively self-evident to me.  Let's see, it's much more 'talky' than TOS, there's a character who is there purely to provide emotional exposition, the melodrama is occasionally turned up to 11, the stories are sometimes driven, not by characters, but by character's emotions, and the whole thing has that fuzzy patina of low-budget 90s day-time TV.  :P  I am, of course, exaggerating a bit for effect, but yeah, I think soap opera is a good descriptor for the show's excesses.  Keep in mind, I didn't say the show was a soap opera, I said that it could feel too much like one for my tastes at times.  The better episodes feel like Star Trek.  The worst ones feel like All My Children in space.  :lol:

This is partially just a result of the show's era, as is that very 60s flavor in TOS, but, as I understand it, it is also sometimes a product of Gene Roddenberry's meddling, where they sacrificed story for message and naval-gazing.

Huh. I guess I kind of understand where you're coming from. It's just that when I hear the term 'soapy', I think 'focusing on the characters and every little thing they get up to more than anything else, ridiculously long and convoluted plotlines that go nowhere, and a plot that feels like it's an afterthought.' Granted, this isn't always a bad thing. Claremont's X-men run was 'soapy', at least by my definition, and I still love it to bits. But I hope you can understand why I don't really think of TNG as 'soapy', because at least to me, it doesn't really fall into any of those categories.

I see what you mean, Kk.  I am referring more to the feel, the tone, than to structure or the like. 

I'll give it a look at DS9.

https://www.netflix.com/watch/70205909?trackId=200257859 -Dunno if it works, but that's a direct link to trials and tribble-ations (season 5 episode 6). And yes, all 7 seasons are available on netflix

Weird, I searched earlier today, and it only showed me season 1.  Maybe it's because I wasn't logged in.  Odd.

Quote from: Tomato on July 13, 2017, 03:22:43 PM
That having been said... Benton, if you watch nothing else in DS9, you HAVE to watch Trials and Tribble-ations. It was an episode made for the series' anniversary, and it features everyone going back in time to "the trouble with tribbles" wearing full 60s garb. It's freaking amazing.

This. This is the only DS9 episode I've watched, and I agree that it was very well done.

I saw the B5 pilot, and didn't like it. Much later, a friend whose opinion I respect told me he loved the series. It took awhile to locate it on a local channel, but I started watching it. Actually, I started recording it, because it was on at some ridiculous time like 2:78 in the morning. I was impressed, possibly in part because it was such in improvement on the pilot. Then again, a friend of my mother's had recorded the pilot, and I borrowed it during season 3 and watched it again. and it didn't seem quite so bad...

I've heard that J. Michael Strazinsky has an interesting story about DS9...

Trials and Tribbleations is great, but this is still my favorite moment in all of Star Trek (SPOILERS HO!):

GAREK: That's why you came to me, isn't it Captain? Because you knew I could do the things you weren't capable of doing. Well it worked, and you'll get what you wanted; a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was one Romulan Senator, one criminal, and the self respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StF9jrhw-pU

Though this is pretty great too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREQGl54BU8

And this: 3XGKkycX81A

Honestly, if I linked every single one of DS9's great moments, we'd be here all day. :rolleyes:

Just a general Trek observation,I caught a bit of first season of TNG on tv lately,and its bad.I know it got a lot better later on,but it was off to a terrible start.

Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 16, 2018, 10:55:56 AM
Just a general Trek observation,I caught a bit of first season of TNG on tv lately,and its bad.I know it got a lot better later on,but it was off to a terrible start.

I wouldn't consider it bad really.  It's definitely not as good as later ones.  They were still trying to find their feet and Rodenbury was actually tying the hands of the writers many times.  Still it was a return of the show and had a lot of potential, so people gave it time to grow.  And it did.

Only because bad and "trying to imitate a 20 year old tv-show" are not quite the same.

In general,I think the static idea of DS9 enabled them to truly demonstrate the results of the groups activity instead of We discover a Planet-of-Hats,teach them why their insensible ways are awful and bugger off at twist speed.

Quote from: HANK on May 21, 2019, 11:57:42 AM
In general,I think the static idea of DS9 enabled them to truly demonstrate the results of the groups activity instead of We discover a Planet-of-Hats,teach them why their insensible ways are awful and bugger off at twist speed.

Wow,thats almost like what I said. 🙂

I think of Star Trek like I do Ninja Turtles, there's no wrong answer. More there's just the nostalgia for whichever a generation grew up with. My generation was therefore TNG. In fact there wasn't many highlighted live action shows in the era, most were either sitcoms or Cops. It was a show my best bud and I would have little hangouts with pizza bagel snacks and such for each new episode. So it has that special place for me. My moms is the original series for the same reason. My cat Peanut likes the original, his favorite show period for that matter. I think it's because of the odd reverb sounds and more because the angles on the close up shots are ocular not unlike how a cat is supposed to see a human head from it's vantage.

So Im watching Enterprise and I remembered 2009 movie referencing Scotty killing Archers dog...and I had to google that. So Scotty didn't actually kill Porthos. Yes, it's the same dog and his well over a 100 by the time of the movie. #TheMoreYouKnow

Medical science in the future....headaches were considered so rare that it was a serious reason to take notice.

Leonard McCoy was 137 years old when he retired from Starfleet.

I did see What we left behind (the DS9 documentary) and its actually good. When it's not talking about politics. And Ira Steven Behr (and his blue beard) has an actual checklists. And laments not talking enough about sexual identity. Ira is the only one to call Profit and Lace a good episode. Ever.
But damn,once the writers sit down and start pitching a season 8 pilot...they still got it. I would definitely watch that. CBS,why are you not funding this?!
The cast reads some of the hate mail from back in the day,and ironically,all the things people complained about are what ended up making it timeless. Turns out people want to see "them farting around the space station and talking about their feeling". 😄
And as the documentary point out,being able to binge it certainly did DS9 a favour.
Sadly,we lost Odo in the meantime,so this hits kinda differently.

QuoteSadly,we lost Odo in the meantime,so this hits kinda differently.

Yes, indeed. That is a sentiment shared by many.

I may have to stream that DS9 documentary sometime, because I keep hearing good things.

QuoteBut damn,once the writers sit down and start pitching a season 8 pilot...they still got it. I would definitely watch that. CBS,why are you not funding this?!

Yeah, I'm going to have to watch that part. I'd love for CBS to make that now, but something to consider is that a lot of the actors in question might be off the table. The actors for Odo and Nog passed away in recent characters (two of the absolute best characters on that show), other actors might not be acting anymore afaik, and Avery Brooks....well, the one thing I'll say is that I've heard him described as a "recluse" to the point it was rumored a year or two ago that The Sisco might be resurrected in a future ST show....played by Cirroc Lofton (Jake's actor) instead.

If CBS made a continuation with like 3 or 4 returning actors (you all know full well Shimmerman and Jeffrey Combs would be down for it, and I'm sure Michael Dorn will cave given enough time and money) I wouldn't complain in the slightest, but....well, we'll see.

Plus I suspect Ronald D. Moore probably has no interest in being involved years after Battle Star Galactica went off the air, and DS9 was his baby as far as I'm concerned. You and I both rewatched those TNG episodes he wrote that were a blatant back door pilot for DS9 and they were damn good.

QuoteAvery Brooks....well, the one thing I'll say is that I've heard him described as a "recluse"

I think he had a drinking problem?

QuotePlus I suspect Ronald D. Moore probably has no interest in being involved years after

He seemed pretty into it here. Granted,I don't know if he would be up for it right now,or if he would be available.
In theory,the writers still got it,the crew is still holding up pretty well (this was 2018,granted),you could do season 8 tomorrow. In practice,I doubt CBS and Kurtzman even considered that. And seeing their track record,we should be grateful.