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Author Topic: The Marvel Thread  (Read 129535 times)

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3540 on: March 09, 2018, 02:33:31 PM »
KK,only not really,like I said,Avengers were always a weird spontanous thing.They were never a family like say X-men or a "workplace" like JLA.They were in a weird grey area.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3541 on: March 10, 2018, 12:20:44 AM »
KK,only not really,like I said,Avengers were always a weird spontanous thing.They were never a family like say X-men or a "workplace" like JLA.They were in a weird grey area.

...And that has to do with mostly having characters not in their own books how?
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3542 on: March 11, 2018, 05:50:27 AM »
Im not sure if If I catch your drift here' your problem is with the Wolverine publicity of modern age line-ups?
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3543 on: March 11, 2018, 05:59:10 AM »
Im not sure if If I catch your drift here' your problem is with the Wolverine publicity of modern age line-ups?

Sort of, but that's not just it. I wouldn't mind someone like Spiderman or Wolverine being Avengers if they didn't have their own books. But they do. And because of that, they can't be properly developed in Avengers itself and you need to go read their own books to see them developed instead. Whereas if you had characters like Vision or Wonder Man in their place, you could have actual, meaningful character development. Prior to Bendis, Avengers was NOT about Marvel's greatest heroes teaming up. It was about giving the spotlight to characters without their own titles that couldn't hold their own books. Which also allowed for actual character development in Avengers itself. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

Ideally, I want Avengers to be completely self-contained. To have absolutely no characters with their own titles so so the book can do whatever it wants with its' cast. And some of the classic runs came close to that. Remember Cap's Kooky Quartet?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 02:13:54 PM by kkhohoho »
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Offline detourne_me

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3544 on: March 11, 2018, 12:57:45 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly, kkhohoho!

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3545 on: March 11, 2018, 07:19:29 PM »
Im not sure if If I catch your drift here' your problem is with the Wolverine publicity of modern age line-ups?

Sort of, but that's not just it. I wouldn't mind someone like Spiderman or Wolverine being Avengers if they didn't have their own books. But they do. And because of that, they can't be properly developed in Avengers itself and you need to go read their own books to see them developed instead. Whereas if you had characters like Vision or Wonder Man in their place, you could have actual, meaningful character development. Prior to Bendis, Avengers was NOT about Marvel's greatest heroes teaming up. It was about giving the spotlight to characters without their own titles that couldn't hold their own books. Which also allowed for actual character development in Avengers itself. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

Ideally, I want Avengers to be completely self-contained. To have absolutely no characters with their own titles so so the book can do whatever it wants with its' cast. And some of the classic runs came close to that. Remember Cap's Kooky Quartet?

Or that one time when a bunch of nobodies wore matching jackets and got involved into way too soap-operific antics.Eh,Im so depressed that I can even make fun of Bob Harras... :unsure:
But I digress...there are no bad characters,only bad writers.Who is on the team shouldn't be a problem as long as you can tell a good story.And thats the problem with this reboot and every else since Marvel Now (2012).You can switch the players around,but its still the same team.And their results have been spotty at best in this decade.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3546 on: March 11, 2018, 08:33:09 PM »
Im not sure if If I catch your drift here' your problem is with the Wolverine publicity of modern age line-ups?

Sort of, but that's not just it. I wouldn't mind someone like Spiderman or Wolverine being Avengers if they didn't have their own books. But they do. And because of that, they can't be properly developed in Avengers itself and you need to go read their own books to see them developed instead. Whereas if you had characters like Vision or Wonder Man in their place, you could have actual, meaningful character development. Prior to Bendis, Avengers was NOT about Marvel's greatest heroes teaming up. It was about giving the spotlight to characters without their own titles that couldn't hold their own books. Which also allowed for actual character development in Avengers itself. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

Ideally, I want Avengers to be completely self-contained. To have absolutely no characters with their own titles so so the book can do whatever it wants with its' cast. And some of the classic runs came close to that. Remember Cap's Kooky Quartet?

Or that one time when a bunch of nobodies wore matching jackets and got involved into way too soap-operific antics.Eh,Im so depressed that I can even make fun of Bob Harras... :unsure:[/i]

Hey, I liked that run. (Up until the end of the Proctor arc anyway.) It was good stuff.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3547 on: March 12, 2018, 06:15:07 AM »
Except... Avengers has ALWAYS been a book that's had characters from other books. It STARTED as a team up of characters with solo books that they put in one book. Yes, Stan whittled that down very early on (with the original team leaving and putting Cap in charge) but even at that point Cap had his own solo book in which he was having solo adventures and character development. That's not to even go into Iron Man and Thor, who have almost always had solo series runs running alongside their tenures in Avengers. Ideally, having a character in both can work fine in the same way that having Avengers films and Captain America films do... the solo films progress the story of the character while the team up movie allows you to deepen the relationships and explore the character from the standpoint of the team/social dynamic... how does Cap get along with IM, etc.

That having been said, the problem with Wolverine especially is that Wolverine is ALREADY in like 4 teams. We SEE Wolverine interacting with teams pretty consistently, and his character growth when it comes to leading the Xavier school was more interesting then anything he's done in any avengers book. Even Spider-Man, who I personally like having in the Avengers because I feel the character has earned A-list status on the A-list team (even if Marvel itself wants to consistently regress the character for no reason) has had a series of team up books that make him being on the Avengers prior to Bendis' run kinda pointless.

Offline kkhohoho

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3548 on: March 12, 2018, 12:04:58 PM »
Except... Avengers has ALWAYS been a book that's had characters from other books.

I know that. But for the most part, it usually only had a few of them. Often no more than 3. Most of the rest of the team was strictly contained to Avengers, and that was who the book focused on.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3549 on: March 13, 2018, 08:06:52 AM »
Do you count characters who were in other team books,like New Warriors or X-men?
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3550 on: March 13, 2018, 12:47:16 PM »
Funny thing about that, I was writing a lengthy response that I ultimately didn't post because I didn't feel it said anything important that wasn't said already, but one of the things I mentioned was that Busiek's run had Firestar and Justice in it. Since New Warriors had ended and they weren't in the short-lived Jay Faerber run, Busiek was free to use them without restriction, such as have Justice spend an entire arc with his leg in a cast.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 10:19:14 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3551 on: March 25, 2018, 09:14:16 AM »
I'm currently trying to get through the Spider-Man/Deadpool arc where they're both old men in retirement homes (I somehow managed to miss pt 1 when it came out, and as with the Kelly volume, they go back and forth with the different storylines) and it's really not that good. As with the non-stop string of Cullen Bunn minis, it has surprisingly little comedy that works, even with a premise that has potential.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3552 on: March 29, 2018, 06:13:06 PM »
Well Wondercon just happened and comics announcements are pouring out at a steady pace. Let's do a quick Marvel comics roundup:

1. April will feature $1 reprints of Thanos and Adam Warlock stories as well as the first appearance of Carol Danvers as Ms. Marvel. These include the earliest appearances of Thanos, Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War, The Starlin/Ron Lim Silver Surfer run, and Thanos Rising.

2. May will feature $1 Wolverine reprints (which they already did a little over a year ago, but now they're doing it again with different books. This is obviously to tie-in with the Hunt For Wolverine books. These include Kitty Pryde & Wolverine, the Claremont solo series, more material from Marvel Comics Presents, a 90's Venom comic that includes Wolverine, issue #50 of Loeb's Wolverine. As a bonus, they're also putting out a $1 reprint of the first issue of Exiles, to promote the new series. It will be 48 pgs, as was the original comic, but will still be $1.

3. June will feature $1 Ant-Man and Wasp comics. These include early stories featuring Hank and Jan, the issue featuring the famous, often replicated visual of Ant-Man riding on Hawkeye's arrow, the first appearance of Scott Lang, and an issue of Iron Man featuring Scott. There's also going to be a Ant-Man and the Wasp miniseries by Waid, featuring Scott Lang and Nadia, and a one-shot featuring Scott Lang and Jan by Ralph Maccio and Andrea Divito (in April, the same creative team is doing a Infinity Gauntlet Gems-themed Avengers one shot).

4. There's going to be a Quicksilver mini series spinning out of the current Avengers storyline. As a huge Quicksilver fan, I'm looking forward to it. The writer for it is the guy who wrote Black Bolt's comic. No idea if he's any good, but at least he's writing something better than Black Bolt.

5. There's going to be an immediate followup to Infinity Countdown called Infinity War. Very much looks like more of the same. I'm fine with that, because Duggan's Guardians of the Galaxy was my favourite Marvel book at the time and this book and Infinity Countdown are direct continuations of that, but I'm sure there will be (and indeed, is) much snarking about Marvel rehashing. At least this new one's set to have better art than Infinity Countdown and thank Kirby for that.

6. Fantastic Four returns....written by Dan Slott. To directly quote someone from the CBR comments:  "Oy. Not Dan Slott. Fresh Start is the same old Marvel that we've been getting, but playing musical chairs." I'll say that between Slott taking over Iron Man and Slott taking on FF, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I don't like he's getting rewarded for his terrible Spider-Man work with primo assignments, but on the other hand, he's not ruining anything I particularly care about, yet, so it's no hair off my back. Plus after all these years, he's finally off Spidey, and hopefully Spencer or a later writer can start repairing some of the damage he caused. Fantastic Four and Iron Man fans, however, should start picking out funeral tuxes, taking bets in the Dead Pool, and get ready for Superior Iron...oh wait, they already did that...Superior Fantastic?

7. Marvel's teasing something involving Amazing Spider-Man and something else involving Uncanny X-Men...yay?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 10:20:21 PM by Silver Shocker »
"If you put out a story that needs supplementary reading in order for it to be coherent, then's it's a BAD story! If you thought it was that important, you shoulda put it in the actual damn comic!"
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3553 on: March 29, 2018, 09:32:08 PM »
Superior Four has a better ring to it.Actually,if he does pull Doctor Doom,Annihilus and/or some big name villains in there,I would check it out.  :)
Saladin Ahmed?No,hes terrible.
All in all,Marvel continues to drive itself into an early grave with the same tactics they were using for the past 5 or so years.Good Game,everyone.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3554 on: March 29, 2018, 10:14:47 PM »
I was thinking a variation on the name "Mr. Fantastic", but you're right, Superior Four does sound a lot better. And while the premise you posited does sound promising, that kind of thing, I would say, is really not in Slott's wheelhouse. In that issue where the Sinister 6 curb-stomped the Intelligentsia, he didn't come off well in terms of handling a villain team dynamic. During a serious fight, he had Mysterio slacking off playing Angry Birds because "Lol so random" + "Pop Culture Reference". I and some other Spidey fans thought it was lame comedy and went against what the tone of that story should have been.

Quote
Saladin Ahmed?No,hes terrible.

You saying that does make me tempted to do some further research. I'm tempted to say I shouldn't hold it against any writer that they wrote an Inhumans book, since modern Inhumans are cancer because Marvel has/had an agenda. Then again, I can imagine in my head the way the ways the actual writer could be terrible. I guess I've just read enough terrible and/or flawed comics by poor writers. That being said, I did read an interview about the Quicksilver miniseries and it actually does sound like he has a good handle on what the character is all about. Compare to Remender who made Quicksilver too jokey so he was just another Spider-Man (and I know I was right about that because every single writer since has written Quicksilver properly. Not that I doubted myself, mind you)

Speaking of Inhumans, Marvel just teased "Death of the Inhumans". About time. X-Men had "Death of X" so it's only fair Inhumans get their turn.

Quote
All in all,Marvel continues to drive itself into an early grave with the same tactics they were using for the past 5 or so years.Good Game,everyone.

The funny thing is, I have no doubt comic fans were saying the same thing 5 years ago and another 5 before that. Yet, for better or worse, they're still here. Keep in mind, I'm not saying some of the books and practices aren't crap, some of them certainly are.
"If you put out a story that needs supplementary reading in order for it to be coherent, then's it's a BAD story! If you thought it was that important, you shoulda put it in the actual damn comic!"
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3555 on: March 30, 2018, 06:56:32 AM »
About the last part,thats true up to a point.Fans always complained,but these days its a bit worst then usual,because,honestly Marvel is worst then ever IMO.Putting personal politics above the story and generaly being an a-hole online (Im talking about Marvel employees in general) has driven a number of fans away.
I think Marvel will be around in 5 years,but I dont think it will survive in its current form.Current owners never showed interest in publishing comics,they just want to harvest IP.Yeah,Disney ia pretty much Borg.

Anyhow,Fractions FF...aged terribly in just 4 years.Was it trying to go for a Superior Foes style humor?Was it just trying to let us know Fraction hates Doom?Was it even trying?Well,Fraction is a bit overrated anyway.
The series even pulls off a John Byrne and shows Fraction and Brevoort visiting Future Foundation.How clever.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 09:15:17 PM by HarryTrotter »
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Offline GhostMachine

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3556 on: April 02, 2018, 11:56:46 PM »
Fraction and Brevoort aren't even worthy to carry Byrne's writing and drawing tools....

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3557 on: April 03, 2018, 04:32:48 PM »
John Byrne witnessing the trial of Reed Richards is dramatic,Mark Millar and Wally West sitting in a pub is charming,this case is just forced.In a "we are so meta" way.
Fraction had good runs on Iron Fist,Iron Man (up to the point Tony has to kiss Doc Ocks tentacle) and Hawkeye,but I never found him to be  "American Grant Morrison".Not to say he isnt a better writer then Marvels current batch of has-beens and never-were's,but Im going wide again...
Fraction is okay,but really overrated.And FF isnt his best work.Also,did he mention he really hates Doctor Doom?
And I might as well cave in and finish Astonishing Ant-Man at this point.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3558 on: April 03, 2018, 05:32:50 PM »
Fraction was especially poor on Uncanny X-Men. Yeah, there's the "Uncanny Curse" but he seemed especially out of his element there. Greg Land on art certainly didn't help.
"If you put out a story that needs supplementary reading in order for it to be coherent, then's it's a BAD story! If you thought it was that important, you shoulda put it in the actual damn comic!"
~Linkara, Atop the Fourth Wall Final Crisis review

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3559 on: April 03, 2018, 08:35:57 PM »
Honestly,Im not familiar with his X-men work.He borrowed a lot from New X-men,I think?
Anyhow,there are oddball cult books and books trying to be oddball and cult.Fraction writes the second kind.Sometimes it works to a moderate degree.In case of FF,it doesnt.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3560 on: April 09, 2018, 06:24:50 PM »
Rocket vol. 1 Classic Ewing.You got element of prison break,heist film,noir and a Deapool guest apperence.As usual,everything and the kitchen sink but all those element never come together.
Hey look,those guys from Captain Britain,and Halfworld,and Deadpool,and a Daredevil parody...and where was I going with this?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3561 on: April 16, 2018, 07:52:07 PM »
Spiderman FCBD issue leaked online.And its actually interesting.In terms os status quo it seems to be a return to Jenkins days.It might draw in some old fans,but its not all that welcoming to new readers.(ha,new readers  :lol:)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
is Peters roomate,so expect some wacky situations,I guess.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer