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The Marvel Thread

Started by Previsionary, December 24, 2008, 11:48:35 PM

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GhostMachine

#360
AA, my comments weren't meant to sound homophobic. Its just that I don't think it makes sense that pheromones could be used to seduce someone of the same sex who isn't bisexual or homosexual - no matter the gender of the one doing the seducing, because the mind would likely fight off the effects once they realize they're being manipulated by someone they'd never be inclined to be attracted to naturally. I could believe in mind control or Starfox's power being strong enough to pull it off, but I can't buy pheromones being able to do that. Sorry.

It doesn't matter if he uses the powers on background characters or not, because I believe psychology would overcome biology; with mind control or Starfox's pleasure center manipulation ability the brain is being directly manipulated, so I could buy those working, but pheromones work mainly on the senses, and someone would be able to fight that off much easier than they would the other powers.

Podmark

Quote from: murs47 on July 28, 2009, 03:39:13 PM
Pheromone control huh? I wonder how people would react to his farts?

Go ask Gambit.
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murs47

Quote from: Podmark on July 28, 2009, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: murs47 on July 28, 2009, 03:39:13 PM
Pheromone control huh? I wonder how people would react to his farts?

Go ask Gambit.

Daken farted on Gambit! I have to buy this issue!

Previsionary

#363
Quote from: GhostMachine on July 28, 2009, 06:31:33 PM
AA, my comments weren't meant to sound homophobic. Its just that I don't think it makes sense that pheromones could be used to seduce someone of the same sex who isn't bisexual or homosexual - no matter the gender of the one doing the seducing, because the mind would likely fight off the effects once they realize they're being manipulated by someone they'd never be inclined to be attracted to. Mind control, yes. Starfox's power, yes. But I can't buy pheromones being able to do that. Sorry.


The way I look at it is that Daken is affecting their "willpower." That's the whole point of pheromones in general, no? To make someone more susceptible to something while also affecting their moods and thinking. I don't think it necessarily means ANYONE would just go along with Daken if they had strong emotions against doing it, but if their will wasn't strong enough to resist his power, they'd probably lose out. Just look at the other examples of Daken's pheromone control, he made Thing more "susceptible" into giving into his rage, he messed with people's awareness, and he's made people feel calm around him when they probably shouldn't have. He's basically the king of manipulation. Why would there be a line drawn at "sex" when other characters have done so as well + more (Stacy X used it to further her sexual career all the time before she joined the X-men and probably after).

But still, I think you'd have a strong[er] point if he was manipulating someone ESTABLISHED into bedding him. If he was making Johnny (Torch) salivate over him or Bullseye, I'd question it a whole lot more than Mr. No-name, no major purpose. Why, you ask, because those characters have had their characters defined enough to have a strong inclination for women. Background character #298 who I know nothing about, not so much. Also, did anyone here have a problem when Longshot's power affected a male cop when his powers/DNA supposedly only work on members of the opposite sex? Wouldn't that be MUCH harder to believe than Daken releasing pheremones to attempt to get what he wants?

Anyway, I think this will be a much more interesting convo when Daniel Way (bleh) and Majorie (yay) get around to going more indepth with Daken and his sexual orientation and give us more examples of his pheromone control.

QuoteAt the 2009 San Diego Comic-Con International, Marjorie Liu commented that "[Daken] will do anyone and anything [to achieve his goals and he's] past that kind of identification. He's beyond it." Daniel Way added that Daken's sexuality will be addressed later on, but it's more about his personality. "He's no more homosexual than he is heterosexual. It's about control."

So, let's see how that goes before trying to "define" what he is and isn't doing to people of his gender. Of course, this means having faith in the writers actually addressing it... decisions, decisions.
Disappear when you least expe--

AfghanAnt

I think the control aspect Way mention echoed my whole point about rap(e) not being about sexuality. Sure I think Daken is disgusting for raping people with his powers (I question why he would have sex with that guy if he could just get what he needed and leave) but I do believe that if the comic is telling me he produces a pheromones that controls other people's emotions and perspective then I honestly could believe that if he tried hard enough he could control Johnny Storm into whatever he wanted (or at least Iceman :P). Do I believe such a thing would work on Wolverine or even Cyclops? No, because they are both use trained to control their mind. I've never read Johnny Storm getting psychic training from Reed. I think distinguishing between mental and physical control aren't so clear cut. However, lets say his powers are akin to getting really drunk and just going along with something (also a form of rap(e)) but I agree with you.

I think we can all agree this conversation is silly because these are fictional characters and in five years Daken will probably be dead.

Courtnall6

Quotein five years Daken will probably be dead

ugh...five years too long.
Clothes make the man and colourful tights make the Super-Hero.

Xenolith

We call them "toots" in my household...you know...kid friendly.  :)  It's probably appropriate to be speaking of them in the Marvel thread.  :)

steamteck

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 28, 2009, 04:32:29 PM
I am so glad Prev got what I was saying.

While I respect your beliefs, I'd be lying if I didn't think GhostMachine's and steamteck's reaction were sort of homophobic. The "straight" men Daken has been shown to control are background characters so why there is this whole "no way" reaction seems to be fear. Are you emotionally invested in these straight men? Do you even care about them enough to even know their names? If not, you should really ask yourself why you are rejecting this whole notion other than some scared heterosexual reaction to a big bad homosexual.

Second, why is it a big deal if Daken can control men (whether straight, gay, bi-curious whatever). These men obviously don't have a choice in the matter anymore than a defile victim would. Would you declare the defile victim had some choice in the matter?

I just see this double standard for straight men which sort of annoys me. Starfox practically forces women every time but that's ok because he's straight and it is women he is manipulating? Moondragon rapes Thor but somehow she is still a considered hero? Is heterosexual defile ok and believable but not homosexual?

Mentally or physically controlling someone for sex (defile) has nothing to do with sexuality and neither does Daken's power.


And I'd be lying if i didn't think you thinking its homophobic revealed more about you than me but i figure we really don't need to go there.

I just think it doesn't make sense. real mind control . go for it. Pheromones, nope doesn't cut the mustard for me. Then again I never believed the Mandrills power should be as strong and overwhelming as it is anyway and he affects the opposite sex. However he's a monster so that ruins my suspense of disbelief in a very similar way. I've got no double standard here . I'm pretty consistent.

Actually I don't think Moondragon is a hero . She  a pretty hardcore villain to me from her actions. She got far far less than she deserved after that episode. I really haven't seen Starfox in action but if its like you describe, yep villainous behavior.

BentonGrey

This thread was pointed out to me by someone else, although I had been safely avoiding it 'till then.  I wasn't going to say anything, my views about the viability/appropriateness of subjects like this in comics being fairly well known, but I feel like AA's response deserves a comment.  I'm disgusted with this whole development, and not just because Daken is gay (I had no idea until I read this thread, and honestly, by this point he's just another name on the list).  To use AA's term, "defile" is never a source of entertainment, especially in four color world.  It is one of the most abominable acts one human being can perpetrate upon another, and I find the fact that I even need to say it has no place in a world of superheroics infinitely sad.  Do I find it more horrible that he is basically "defiling" straight men?  Yes, because, to me, that type of violation is more frightening for me personally than a woman taking advantage of me.  Either would be terrible, but the former has an extra dimension of horror.

I understand that the question of what exactly he is doing, if it actually consists of the type of control that has been posited, has yet to be completely answered, but the implication is enough to remind me that THESE are the kinds of things I dropped modern books to avoid.  I'm sorry for barging in here and bothering y'all with my opinions on books that I'm not going to read, but I thought that a rather important facet of this was being overlooked.
God Bless
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Previsionary

#369
No... no.

*sigh* He's not RAPING people. Everyone under Daken's pheromone control still has a sense of will. They don't HAVE to do anything they don't want to. That's an important fact several people in this thread (especially the one's that don't have a working knowledge of Daken) keep missing.

If Daken gets you under his pheromone control, the only thing he's doing is manipulating your emotions and your senses. He's getting you under his spell to the point where you're more likely to do something (I.E, more likely to find him attractive or more likely to give into your urges), it doesn't mean the person "charmed" is going to rip off their clothes and do the nasty on the floor.

To illustrate this point, I point to Cyber who was also charmed by Daken at one point during a fight. It worked on Cyber a little bit, but once he realized what was going on, he broke Daken's hold. If Cyber wanted to remain under that spell and indulge in his feelings of happiness (which Daken charmed him with), that would have been under his own accord.

So to summarize, Daken may be manipulating emotions, feelings, and what-have-you, but he's not forcing these people into bed. It bothers me that people are overlooking this fact when I've pointed out that not everyone is jumping his bones. Regardless, since today is Wednesday and new books came out for some parts of the world, I'd rather people stop dragging this discussion out and talk about something new.

In other news, Pod/AA, Patriot makes a cameo in MUA2... they're coming up in the world!
Disappear when you least expe--

AfghanAnt

#370
Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 04:33:40 PM
And I'd be lying if i didn't think you thinking its homophobic revealed more about you than me but i figure we really don't need to go there.
Turning something around on me doesn't a point make. And if you have something you would like to say about me I'm all ears.

Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 04:33:40 PM
I just think it doesn't make sense. real mind control . go for it. Pheromones, nope doesn't cut the mustard for me. Then again I never believed the Mandrills power should be as strong and overwhelming as it is anyway and he affects the opposite sex. However he's a monster so that ruins my suspense of disbelief in a very similar way. I've got no double standard here . I'm pretty consistent.
But unaided flight and flexible organic steel (oxymoron btw) does spread it right? If you are championing this "pheremones don't work that way" idea, well neither does genetics but you probably read X-Men. Species with different genotypes can't breed but Shi'ars can mate and reproduce offspring with humans. Do you find everything that forces the reader to suspend disbelief as not cutting the mustard? Do you only read and enjoy comics that take place in reality? Again this is a comic character we are talking about real world mechanics do no apply.

Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 04:33:40 PM
Actually I don't think Moondragon is a hero . She  a pretty hardcore villain to me from her actions. She got far far less than she deserved after that episode. I really haven't seen Starfox in action but if its like you describe, yep villainous behavior.
As you should with any person who controls an individual for self-gain.

Prev, really? Where did you hear this Patriot news.

Previsionary

It was in the IGN trailer I posted in the MUA2 thread. He was punching someone, iirc.
Disappear when you least expe--

Silver Shocker

I do think it's cool that Patriot is in MUA2, but that's not new footage, I've seen that shot in videos on Gametrailers months ago, during E3 I think.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BlueBard

Quote from: Courtnall6 on July 25, 2009, 02:08:29 AM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 24, 2009, 10:54:15 PM
Urgh if you thought Rulk was bad...look forward to seeing She-Rulk - http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=cons/cci2009/cupojoe/HULKTHE016_COV.jpg

Yup...that's pretty bad. Not sure why the artist bothered to draw any clothes on her at all....I guess there's the comics code...but that hasn't been relevent in years.

Ugh... Is that supposed to be attractive or sexy?  Who's the artist?  I can't remember the name I'm thinking of, but it looks like the kind of thing he'd draw.  Or at least I hope so... we don't need more than one terrible Marvel artist who can't actually draw.

Bulging he-man biceps NEVER look good on a woman.  (Maybe her power is grossing out people to death.  Or maybe it's the artist's power.)

I can understand torn leather, but I can't understand torn leather looking like THAT.  If you think about it, it's actually obscuring more of her figure than it reveals.

Is that supposed to be a sai in her right hand, or a trident?  A pitchfork would have been more believable with that red skin.  Somebody's got serious size issues.  And why, oh why, would any Hulk-derivative need to carry a gun?
STO/CO: @bluegeek

steamteck

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 29, 2009, 07:08:09 PM
Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 04:33:40 PM
And I'd be lying if i didn't think you thinking its homophobic revealed more about you than me but i figure we really don't need to go there.
Turning something around on me doesn't a point make. And if you have something you would like to say about me I'm all ears.

I feel you're way too quick to jump to such conclusions and see things where they don't exist. Very common and easy to dismiss arguments as "homophobic" or "racist" etc and miss the point entirely by obsesseings on a connection that doesn't  really exist because it touches on a sensitive subject. I think  the pheromone power would would fail  to seduce truly lesbian women also. I won't believe a female power to seduce gay men with pheromones either. I just don't find it plausible. Because my suspension of disbelief runs different than your own is no reason to see to see issues really irrelevant to the point.


BlueBard

Personally, I think the whole discussion of sexual acts in a comic book and arguments about homophobia/homophilia are out of place in a "PG-13" forum.  I would also say that the personal attacks that are starting to happen as a result of this "discussion" are contrary to the spirit of the forum rules if not the letter, in my personal opinion.

Quit it, please.  Please find something else to talk about or take the argument private.
STO/CO: @bluegeek

Podmark

Quote from: Previsionary on July 29, 2009, 06:42:25 PM
In other news, Pod/AA, Patriot makes a cameo in MUA2... they're coming up in the world!

Yep and Cable is in it, and Madrox, and Speedball Penance! They got some cool characters in the new game. Too bad most will be unplayable.
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Talavar

Someone just implied Cable was cool - alert the media!

Podmark

Quote from: Talavar on July 29, 2009, 09:42:48 PM
Someone just implied Cable was cool - alert the media!

Cable was cool in Cable and Deadpool and Carey's X-Men.
Get my skins at:
HeroForce
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AfghanAnt

Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 08:03:18 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 29, 2009, 07:08:09 PM
Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 04:33:40 PM
And I'd be lying if i didn't think you thinking its homophobic revealed more about you than me but i figure we really don't need to go there.
Turning something around on me doesn't a point make. And if you have something you would like to say about me I'm all ears.

I feel you're way too quick to jump to such conclusions and see things where they don't exist. Very common and easy to dismiss arguments as "homophobic" or "racist" etc and miss the point entirely by obsesseings on a connection that doesn't  really exist because it touches on a sensitive subject. I think  the pheromone power would would fail  to seduce truly lesbian women also. I won't believe a female power to seduce gay men with pheromones either. I just don't find it plausible. Because my suspension of disbelief runs different than your own is no reason to see to see issues really irrelevant to the point.

To write me off as seeing things simply as homophobic or racist is a disrespect to me as a person. You have decided (like your ideas on sexuality orientation) there are only two options.

The problem I had with your comment was it was obviously a personal rejection of something you are uncomfortable with, not how the power worked itself yet you still maintain that is all about pheromones. You seem to think that physics, biology, and psychology can take a backseat in comics but sexuality can not. In your view of the comic world, Straight equals Straight and never anything else. That's offensive to me. It not only dismisses millions of people who are stuck-in the middle but it also reinforces this mindset that straight men can't be curious from time to time. For all you know Daken's pheremones along with his knack for manipulation can make a normally "Straight" man succumb to a biological curiosity that is not only accepted for women to do but praised. Yet to you this is laughable.

This is a frickin' comic book we are talking about. Pheremones playing on a person's sexual curiosity is no more laughable than Superman blowing on someone and freezing them.

Previsionary

Quote from: Podmark on July 29, 2009, 10:34:51 PM
Quote from: Talavar on July 29, 2009, 09:42:48 PM
Someone just implied Cable was cool - alert the media!

Cable was cool in Cable and Deadpool and Carey's X-Men.

Cable also walked a thin line between uber and non-uber during parts of that book... which is why he should have Jean's spot in MUA2. Yeah, I said it. :P
Disappear when you least expe--

steamteck

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 29, 2009, 10:44:02 PM

To write me off as seeing things simply as homophobic or racist is a disrespect to me as a person. You have decided (like your ideas on sexuality orientation) there are only two options.

The problem I had with your comment was it was obviously a personal rejection of something you are uncomfortable with, not how the power worked itself yet you still maintain that is all about pheromones. You seem to think that physics, biology, and psychology can take a backseat in comics but sexuality can not. In your view of the comic world, Straight equals Straight and never anything else. That's offensive to me. It not only dismisses millions of people who are stuck-in the middle but it also reinforces this mindset that straight men can't be curious from time to time. For all you know Daken's pheremones along with his knack for manipulation can make a normally "Straight" man succumb to a biological curiosity that is not only accepted for women to do but praised. Yet to you this is laughable.

This is a frickin' comic book we are talking about. Pheremones playing on a person's sexual curiosity is no more laughable than Superman blowing on someone and freezing them.

Your obvious assumptions aren't on target. I never addressed in the middle folks at all but didn't think I needed to. Of course it would work on them. You DO make enormous assumptions and post them  and then get offended when you feel the same is done to you. You can certainly decide where your own suspension of disbelief lies but I feel free to disagree. Equal with the darkness of modern comics to me is they've crossed that line where I can't suspend my disbelief  anymore.

This is getting us no where out of the enormous respect I have for you as an artist. I'll cede now and say I'm sorry I offended you and am sure you never meant  to be offensive either.

AfghanAnt

#382
Quote from: steamteck on July 29, 2009, 11:04:53 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 29, 2009, 10:44:02 PM

To write me off as seeing things simply as homophobic or racist is a disrespect to me as a person. You have decided (like your ideas on sexuality orientation) there are only two options.

The problem I had with your comment was it was obviously a personal rejection of something you are uncomfortable with, not how the power worked itself yet you still maintain that is all about pheromones. You seem to think that physics, biology, and psychology can take a backseat in comics but sexuality can not. In your view of the comic world, Straight equals Straight and never anything else. That's offensive to me. It not only dismisses millions of people who are stuck-in the middle but it also reinforces this mindset that straight men can't be curious from time to time. For all you know Daken's pheremones along with his knack for manipulation can make a normally "Straight" man succumb to a biological curiosity that is not only accepted for women to do but praised. Yet to you this is laughable.

This is a frickin' comic book we are talking about. Pheremones playing on a person's sexual curiosity is no more laughable than Superman blowing on someone and freezing them.

Your obvious assumptions aren't on target. I never addressed in the middle folks at all but didn't think I needed to. Of course it would work on them. You DO make enormous assumptions and post them  and then get offended when you feel the same is done to you. You can certainly decide where your own suspension of disbelief lies but I feel free to disagree. Equal with the darkness of modern comics to me is they've crossed that line where I can't suspend my disbelief  anymore.

This is getting us no where out of the enormous respect I have for you as an artist. I'll cede now and say I'm sorry I offended you and am sure you never meant  to be offensive either.

I can assure you if you were a homosexual, I would have responded the same way. You seem to think this about about a sensitive subject when it is about a damn comic book. That was my whole point. You can dislike Daken because he uses people or even forces them to do things to people you dont agree with but to essentially say "I don't agree because that isn't how real science works" is laughable. That is what I have a problem with because I think we both know it isn't about his power or you would apply the same logic to all superpowers which you obviously dont.

Previsionary

annnnnnyway, Ultimatum 5 finally came out this week. Anyone read it and wanna give us a review on this [almost] year long storyline of epic proportions?
Disappear when you least expe--

Silver Shocker

I saw it at the shop but I didn't even think to look through it. I can't imagine it's good, anyway. I picked up Dark Reign: Young Avengers (I almost added "Runaways" to the title, but can you blame me?). It was ok, but not really a lot happened.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

deano_ue

Quote from: Previsionary on July 30, 2009, 02:20:12 AM
annnnnnyway, Ultimatum 5 finally came out this week. Anyone read it and wanna give us a review on this [almost] year long storyline of epic proportions?

i picked it up in the shop and flicked through it and put it back, i felt dirty, from what i remember there was a lot fo deaths and the final page was moronic.

Spoiler
wolverine is dead, cyclops is dead, magneto is dead, doc doom is dead, his head is crushed by the thing and the whole thing was set up by quicksilver and the scarlet witch

thalaw2

Witchy poo and her brother scare me. 
革命不会被电视转播

Previsionary

#387
omgah, that... what the... I'll never be able to enjoy the Ultimate verse again regardless of Mark Millar's presence (and to be honest, he's soured a lot in my books since reading some of his mainstream work).

Not tagging this, but here is a death count list I found on CBR:

QuoteDeath Count:
Angel, Beast, Blob, Cannonball, Captain Britain and the European Initiative, Cipher, Cyclops, Daredevil, Dazzler, Detonator, Forge, Dr. Emma Frost, Hardrive, Juggernaut, Longshot, Lorelei, Madrox, Magneto, Nightcrawler, Polaris, Psylocke, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Dr. Franklin Storm, Dr. Stephen Strange, Sunspot, Syndicate, Thor, Toad, Doom, Wolverine, Prof. Charles Xavier

MIA:
Firestar, Havok, Spider-man

edit: I hear Spidey is still alive courtesy of USM: Requiem #2... so... eh
Disappear when you least expe--

deano_ue

it' was dooms death that just made me wonder what the hell most of all.

Spoiler
thing just walks into dooms castle grabs his head in one hand and squeezes it like a grape, and say " you had to pay for what you did" and leaves
:banghead:

Previsionary

Spoiler
the only thing that does effectively is lower Doom's threat level... and I wouldnt be surprised if it was a doombot. Easy retcon.

UE, did Loeb ever expand on Rick Jones and the Watchers randomly appearing? I know I shouldn't expect that he did anything with his own continuity, but... I want to be somewhat optimistic... and did "lovely" Zarda reappear? No? Par the course.
Disappear when you least expe--