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Author Topic: The Marvel Thread  (Read 116522 times)

Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3360 on: May 09, 2017, 03:23:22 PM »
I've read a couple of more interviews (that I haven't been able to brood about), and it seems strange. One guy says it's all true, Hydra Steve is the one, true Captain Amerika, and the guys we've been reading about for most of the last 76 years is the alternate universe one  (I knew it; Earth 1), and this is a "reset" back to the real universe (Crisis on Infinite Earths? Marvel is having a Crisis?). Another says that we shouldn't worry, all this will be make clear and everyone will live happily ever after. The annoying thing is, I can't tell you who said what, so I can't back it up. If it isn't a drug-induced hallucination, then it looks like the left hand of someone doesn't know what the right hand of somebody else is doing, or yet another person isn't quite so sure this was a good idea.

Of course, if it was on the internet, it has to be true...

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3361 on: May 09, 2017, 06:25:16 PM »
I'm reading the books, regarding Steve Rogers:
Steve Rogers is currently the 616 version, or whatever canon is now in place after Secret Wars. Anyways a being comparable to the Beyonder rewrote his history but only his history personally so that he was corrupted by Hydra. So like brainwashing but rather his own personal canon was now lived out in an alternate timeline that only he experienced while the rest of the Marvel Universe experienced the standard history with him that we had always read. Hope that clarifies a little. 

Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3362 on: May 09, 2017, 09:36:52 PM »
I'm reading the books, regarding Steve Rogers:
Steve Rogers is currently the 616 version, or whatever canon is now in place after Secret Wars. Anyways a being comparable to the Beyonder rewrote his history but only his history personally so that he was corrupted by Hydra. So like brainwashing but rather his own personal canon was now lived out in an alternate timeline that only he experienced while the rest of the Marvel Universe experienced the standard history with him that we had always read. Hope that clarifies a little.

It does clarify it, but only 'til someone changes it again...

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3363 on: May 09, 2017, 11:46:27 PM »
More easily just read an official synopsis of the Pleasant Hill story arc. That's where all that happened anyways. Like I said could be worse when you think of it. At least in the reading anyways, there's warrant and in depth explanation for it (and I mean exposition down to the rug tufts here) and the character is still the same character except subdued (so not unlike Nomad or something).

Many other Marvel characters these days, and DC for that matter are simply another character all together with flat reasons for, like magical time travel whatsahickey so it just is stuff. Else both traditionally have characters whom are the same character yet undergo frequent enough characterization changes with little to no canonical reason at all that they end up a different character all together and have no logical continuity anymore. Examples would be Barbara Gordan (New 52><Convergence>DCYou-Rebirth) whom inexplicably became a different character as well seemingly younger and into today's teen trends, Superman...well every four to six months historically I guess and then aaaall the way back to go? Teen Titans across the board. Guardians Of The Galaxy just relaunched as mirrors of their 2nd movie counterparts, again no reason given. Psylocke, Magneto, Monet, Bishop and umpteen other mutant characters have no standard "characterization" and any development from one writer seems brushed off by the next one. Then over to shriveled characters like Apocalypse now being an awkward polite teen. Heroes Reborn>Return speaking of Steve and others. Wasp, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, and so many others at Marvel are just other characters now. And so on.

Really all they're guilty of with Steve is giving him the AXIS treatment he wasn't present for that the rest of his teammates did (you BFF, Sabretooth). I'm saying I get you here, especially when your deeply invested in the character but truth is at least as far as I can see is this is par the course so there isn't a reason to be shocked by it. At the end of the day these aren't people nor is it art, it's a product plain and simple and relies on that first to even keep it in play. And like any product it needs frequent repackaging and rebranding for it to stay on the shelves because human's have variable palettes. Could be worse again I say. Like Steve could just be cancelled or not in the books at all anymore (Reed, Sue and the Future Foundation). Instead he's just having his Gone Turbo phase like any hero does next to the death, resurrection and grimdark attitude shifts all eventually go through. I mean just before this he was a crabby grey haired old fart, so what's different today?


Offline cmdrkoenig67

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3364 on: May 14, 2017, 08:21:59 PM »
I really wish Marvel would do something with their horror characters (other than have them be comedy relief in Deadpool).

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Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3365 on: May 14, 2017, 08:48:17 PM »
I mean just before this he was a crabby grey haired old fart, so what's different today?

Hey! I resemble that remark.

Offline kkhohoho

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3366 on: May 14, 2017, 09:08:04 PM »
I really wish Marvel would do something with their horror characters (other than have them be comedy relief in Deadpool).

Dana

They tried that with Howling Commandos. It didn't take. (Sadly.)
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Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3367 on: May 14, 2017, 11:51:14 PM »
Horror has moved away from classic monsters like Frank, Drac, and Wolfy...

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3368 on: May 17, 2017, 04:48:11 AM »
@daglob: Lol, you could always ask the brass at Marvel or DC to change that for ya.  ;)
And yeah typing way off point before. Truth is both Marvel and DC already shredded their canons albeit using different techniques but all the same and Steve's canon as the original readers knew it was long gone anyways. Not to snub either I get a few reasons they had to particularly rights issues as well no longer holding franchises that impacted their respective canons at their base. I just don't see it as worth breaking a sweat over anymore.

@horror: Monsters Unleashed going VERY classic horror but honestly it's a big turd anyways, imo. And really they have tried multiple times, they were even pushing for an Avengers style team back when (fished it with Marvel Zombies 3, really the last I recall seeing the monsters in their full form). I guess it just doesn't sell. Then again neither do classic versions of the Mummy, Wolfman, Gillman and so on in modern cinema either so that sort of adds up. For comedy I felt the Mrs.Deadpool held up, or at least the characters were front and center enough rather than backdrop. At any rate I'm sure they'll keep trying again, no company worth their salt likes wasting a registered copyright. Else there's the fact that *spoiler for Death Do Us Part*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3369 on: May 17, 2017, 04:11:56 PM »
Or nvmd all that, turns out we all overlooked something or so says Secret Empire #2
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3370 on: May 17, 2017, 04:58:17 PM »
Like I said, Cap of Earth-3...

I guess it makes sense, like having Ben Reilly become Spider-Man, but have Peter still in the background in case the whole idea sinks like a lead brick...

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3371 on: May 18, 2017, 04:36:23 AM »
Actually,Ben is Scarlet Spider.That was a really bad first issue btw.
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Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3372 on: May 18, 2017, 05:13:15 AM »
I mean in the late '90s.

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3373 on: May 18, 2017, 12:14:03 PM »
More like the Superman 2 movie really. I will again give it that it does read really well. IMO good story is what's important. And yeah agreed, that first ish of Ben's didn't live up to the hype, not especially everything already generated by the event before it. Personally I'd rather have Kaine back in a solo, he was more compelling and still had a lot of character development to build into stories.

Offline GhostMachine

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3374 on: May 28, 2017, 04:17:22 AM »
New theory regarding Hydra Cap, brought up by The Nerdist:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sounds plausible, and I am all for it if the payoff is that Hydra Cap ends up dead.


Offline spydermann93

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3375 on: May 30, 2017, 02:24:39 AM »
Or nvmd all that, turns out we all overlooked something or so says Secret Empire #2
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Didn't Marvel say that Cap was the "real deal" when they announced him being an agent of Hydra?

Offline kkhohoho

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3376 on: May 30, 2017, 02:52:53 AM »
Or nvmd all that, turns out we all overlooked something or so says Secret Empire #2
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Didn't Marvel say that Cap was the "real deal" when they announced him being an agent of Hydra?

Marvel says a lot of things.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3377 on: May 30, 2017, 03:50:29 AM »
Not a hoax,dream or an imaginary story.Except when it is.
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Offline Ouflah

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3378 on: May 30, 2017, 06:47:10 PM »
Haha, that reminds me of a DC comic I read where on the cover it showed Batman and Superman locked in combat. It proclaimed that this wasn't an imaginary story, or symbolic picture. And yes, it wasn't either of those... it was a robot.   *sigh*
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3379 on: May 31, 2017, 04:33:24 AM »
Yeah,thats an actual DC disclaimer.Because superdickery.
Btw,the next event(after a dozen currently running) is Venomverse.You can guess what its about.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 04:46:15 AM by Spade »
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3380 on: May 31, 2017, 11:48:32 AM »
Honesly I was fine with the first two issues of Ben Reilly Scarlet Spider. Yes, they weren't the most epic things but I wasn't expecting them to be. So far the book is pretty much the same kind of thing as the Kaine Scarlet Spider. Except, yaknow, written by Peter David instead of Chris Yost, so it has better pacing, better characterization, better humor, better pathos, and of course, has better art. As as for coming off Clone Conspiracy, as far as I'm concerned, roughly 98% or so of the writers currently writing for Marvel are going to look good following Danny Boy Slott, so yeah.

Been meaning to post other thoughts on Marvel comics for a while.

I'm reading Secret Empire. I enjoying it. I know a lot of people are angry about Hydra Cap and Marvel has not handled the PR well (do they ever?) but I'm sorry, from where I'm sitting, Nick Spencer is not a bad writer. He's sure as hell not as bad as Slott. Plus so far the thing's coming out on time, which I can only imagine is because of the rotating artists, so can't argue about that.

I recently got into U.S. Avengers and I'm pleasantly surprised at how much I'm enjoying it. I got all of the issues on sale during Free Comic Book Day, read the whole thing, and went "yep, I'm be picking this thing up new". The irony is that despite dropping all of the characters I picked up its predecessor for, I've found that for whatever reason the story has clicked for me in a way NA didn't. Maybe it's the smaller cast resulting in a more focused narrative. Maybe it reads better in bulk. I dunno. I mean I love the art in it, but that was no surprise for me as I'm a fan of all of the artists featured in the book so far.

I don't think I brought this up but I meant to. Thunderbolts is on hiatus for the duration of SE (which is getting an extra issue, btw, as tends to happen with these event books go) I really hope it's not cancelled, but who knows. Also Nova appears to be stealth cancelled, which really sucks, as it means the new run will be cut short before the story's even gotten much of anywhere. Too bad too, because I've been enjoying it. The latest issue revealed how Richie Rider came back and I was totally satisfied with it. And it had been far too long since I'd been reminded how delightfully creepy the Lovecraft-inspired "Cancerverse" was.

In August Marvel will be honoring 100th years of Jack "The King" Kirby with All-Kirby $1.00 reprints. Featuring the debut of Ant-Man and the Wasp, some Cap and Iron Man, Hulk vs Thing, the debut of Groot, Black Panther,  and some other cool stuff.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:46:30 PM by Silver Shocker »
-"Wherever kindness is MOCKED--and CRUELTY is worn as a badge of honor--THERE you will find them. So WEAK inside,

that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
~Peregrine, describing Hydra, U.S. Avengers #8

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3381 on: June 17, 2017, 05:56:58 AM »
I'm sure someone else thought of this too but I've been offline a bit due to injury. Anyway's an oddball thought popped in my head about Secret Empire. So the emotional skeleton is two fold: One, the hero characters feel betrayed by their friend turning face, especially those who were close to him as Avengers. The second is the heroes are in a management that declares them outlaws, really nothing new when you think of it given Civil War, Dark Reign, Axis and so forth. Nor is any hero character switching alignment and almost always because an outside force made it so. But speaking of that and Axis most of the proper named heroes recently when grimdark themselves, that is except Steve Rogers and a bunch of villains who turned white knight. Which brought me to the thought: Why do none of the other heroes have any cognitive dissonance about Roger's current state in light of their own recent experience? Just saying relation is a core aspect of humanity, in other words if a person commits a disagreeable act generally those who haven't will be more likely to throw stones out of lacking a point of reference whereas those who faltered and/or where victims of plight in the same manner will generally empathize and go as far as to play devils advocate. Yet despite noting the canon reason Steve has gone turbo is not of his own doing the heroes really don't show any understanding rather " Take the bad guy down " seems to be the play. Not a quip about it past it does it make the characterization inorganic, but just one of those things that clicked in my think pan.

Offline daglob

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3382 on: June 17, 2017, 01:40:04 PM »
Selective amnesia? Plot hole? 'Cuz it had to be that way or no story?


Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3383 on: June 17, 2017, 03:23:53 PM »
Nah, no-prize. Because forced characterization. The evidence against the fact is the characters remember and frequently point out other events and plotlines, in this one alone they've trudged up Civil War and Civil War 2 a few times now in depth. I don't think the writer missed it either just choose not to incorporate it and really I think it would have been more compelling if they had. Like say have Hawkeye have a struggle with the idea after what he did to Banner recently or again most of the heroes dwelling on AXis (and Peter on the Superior event for that matter). In fact Tony just went through the Superior thing himself anyways. No-prize is the public knows all this stuff and readily accepts it so there's no reason the heroes couldn't go public and viral and just announce what happened to Steve. Though that would deflate the political metaphor going on here that we've seen in most of Marvel's events since House Of M, this one of course being the current atmosphere where people feel betrayed by "America" (hence why it has to be Rogers) and as if a fascist regime has snagged control of the government. But it would be interesting, I like reading about those human conflicts as opposed to scripted mannerisms. Again though else this is well written stuff, maybe one of Marvels best written events in awhile by comparison when I'm looking at it.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3384 on: June 17, 2017, 05:37:22 PM »
You are reading Secret Empire?You enabler! :p
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3385 on: June 18, 2017, 09:51:29 AM »
Scarlet Spider #3:

"Well, it's your costume, man. I mean, look at it."
"What's wrong with it?"
"Well, first off, the coloring is a rip-off of Spidercide. And I can see your mouth. It's just...it's all wrong."

Gotta love Peter David!  :thumbup:
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that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
~Peregrine, describing Hydra, U.S. Avengers #8

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3386 on: June 19, 2017, 03:41:49 PM »
Course I'm reading it. " Enabler ", pssht, lol. " Caesar must die! "  :P
I like comic books and more captivating stories. It's well written or at least CA: SR is as is CA: SW, thus the mini-series. Thus far I can't speak too highly for the tie-ins. Some of the world structure is flimsy, like I said the utmost black and white acceptance of things by the characters but again I get the political statement in play. As well the New Tian comparison to Californias current stance with the government as is though that still comes off kind of silly as well. The Inhumans being the Muslim angle, no surprise to have Ms.Marvel at the front of it, also an obvious ploy to put the Inhumans in the hated and feared mutant status quo for the future.

And props to Peter David as well. And that and specifically the sudden Spider-fan characters showing up to justify the costume change literally quoting people online riffing on the new look. " Jerks! " from Ben as he skulks away in his original costume, lol.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3387 on: June 19, 2017, 04:48:51 PM »
Wow,somebody actually enjoys Marvel events and their myriad tie-ins.That's new.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3388 on: June 20, 2017, 02:59:41 AM »
Hey, I said earlier in this thread that I'm reading Secret Empire and enjoying it.
Yeah, the Secret Empire United tie-in was just ok, but i quite enjoyed Secret Empire: Uprising. Then again I'm a fan of Champions and that comic delivered on that front. Looking forward to SE: Underground this week.

This latest issue featured the big appearance by Hank Pym/Ultron, and I found it extremely entertaining. That was the thing in the solicits that made me go "Yep, definitely picking this series up", and it didn't disappoint.
-"Wherever kindness is MOCKED--and CRUELTY is worn as a badge of honor--THERE you will find them. So WEAK inside,

that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
~Peregrine, describing Hydra, U.S. Avengers #8

Offline SickAlice

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Re: The Marvel Thread
« Reply #3389 on: June 21, 2017, 12:53:56 PM »
I get your dissonance Spade. I had the same going in. Events have been more often a let down over the decade, usually the story getting dissolved in favor of advancing the next status quo and certain character fights. This one however just has solid writing like Civil War did. Sometimes they hit the mark and perhaps editorial gives them more rope. *shrug* Really Marvel and DC for that matter have come back to the era where they followed indy style books (Image, Dark Horse, Vertigo) so the stories have had much more depth than usual. Not withstanding both are now employing from the indy sector of course. To Marvels credit they're finally following the Bullpen formula again as opposed to the Big Name one. In the Big Name the idea was put a popular team on a book despite them not actually being a fit for the series (Bendis on Avengers). Bullpen rules of course more like baseball where talents where assigned to the position their skills and style flourished most (Bendis on street level). Though I'm sort of gulping at this Legacy thing. I mean I suppose everyone get's what they want then and it worked with the classic X-Men. When I said they will eventually revert characters to their original form I didn't mean it so literally, lol.