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The Marvel Thread

Started by Previsionary, December 24, 2008, 11:48:35 PM

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BentonGrey

Oookay.  I think you're being overly sensitive, HT.

Let's keep it friendly here.  Give each other the benefit of the doubt, and don't assume other folks have negative motives for their posts.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

HarryTrotter

Based on my previous experiences where its always the same people going : "Your not allowed to say that" and "My opinion is a fact" Im not that quick to believe they have good intentions.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#3632
So I'm busy with some other stuff but I want to pop in real quick, since I've missed some debates here on the board before and I want to say my peace.

Benton, with all due respect, there is truth to what Spade/HT is saying, even if his lack of tact brushes up against people. I do notice some patterns he points out, and him and I have become good friends because we've managed to discuss things without arguing about really anything. You and I also discussed similar territory when that Spider-Man movie came out about two years back or so.

Making vague comments like what he's responded to don't help but it does tend in result in trying to figure out what the intent is, but even if it was intended to be obvious, it's not a very nice look. I've noticed this in an earlier thread or two. No voice equals no tone of voice ect.

But once again we're brushing up against the issue the comic industry laid out for us. All the little political digs aren't just stuff in interviews, message boards and twitter. These are things that are in the books themselves. We've discussed this before with, for example, Preist's topical/politically charged recent Justice League arc. The new season of Daredevil on Netflix had some political digs in it as well. I recall reading that an issue of, the new Marvel Two-In-One, I believe it was, had a little political joke from Spidey that was edited out before release, because while it's a joke someone might realistically make, it was unnecessary to the story and people would dwell on it instead of what the story's actually about.

When you have, say, the female Thor vs Absorbing Man fight from Thor (2014) #5 (not going to link to it, quote it, or describe it here, because it's not appropriate for this board, despite being in a non-mature rated book) How does one discuss that scene, and criticize it if you don't like it (I don't like it) without actually describing it? That's on the writer, they chose to put that in the book. And if they chose to put it in the book (or movie, or show, or game...) it should be fair game for criticism. Problem is actually discussing it gets you in hot water.

I'm not going to comment on that negative motives/good intentions part because that's not appropriate for the board IMO, and it's been addressed well by other people.

Hopefully I haven't ruffled any feathers, or at least too much, but I wanted to get my 2 cents in.

[EDIT]

As for your other comment Benton, I haven't heard anything about the Thing in Marvel's comics right now, other than he's apparently marrying Alicia Masters, so I'm actually not sure what you're referencing. Haven't really been paying much attention to the current FF comics. I have however, been discovering quite a bit of the Lee/Kirby stuff for the first time because of Marvel's $1 reprints.

[Edit]

OOh, I totally missed this comment:

QuoteIm guessing these are new versions of Darkhawk and Sleepwalker?And they will go on to join the Champions...er,Secret Defenders?

Actually no! They're the originals, Chris Powell aka Darkhawk (brought back as part of Gerry Duggan's attempt to bring back as much stuff from the DNA Cosmic books as possible) and the original Sleepwalker with his human host Rick Sheridan. The Sleepwalker story, while technically a light continuation of the Darkhawk mini, was overall pretty dopey even as part of Infinity Warps . It included an Ant-Man/Hulk hybrid that was basically an Ant-Man sized Hulk, and a Rick Sheridan fusion with Nick Fury of all people, seemingly so they can A. Use Nick to form the Secret Defenders instead of Dr. Strange like it was back in the 90s, and B. Give him the So-Bad-It's-Good name "Rick Fury". I assumed they were inspired by "Ric Grayson" over at DC.

Silhouette from New Warriors was teased as a potential member of the team. She made an Early Bird Cameo at the beginning of the first issue, where she name dropped....sigh, "Hummingbird" aka Aracally from Yost's Scarlet Spider and New Warriors. Wolverine also will apparently be a member, as in Wolverine with his yellow-and-blue costume Wolverine, or at least some version of Wolverine. Umm, I think they forget to check the current status quo of Logan.

The nice thing about miniseries like this is you don't need to worry about whether it can sustain an ongoing. Quicksilver didn't need to be an ongoing after Avengers: No Surrender, and that string of minis following the cancellation of Sean McKeever's Young Allies didn't need to be ongoings. I miss those characters, and the Young Avengers. Seems like such a long time ago.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

In all of this,I forgot What I was going to say about Asm #12...
Or X-men fighting the Russian Collusion,or Captain America defending Antifa from red-hat-wearing Hydra supporters,or Angela,or Storm trying to secede Harlem...I could go on,but you get the general idea.And no,Im not kidding or abridging anything,all of those things happened exactly as described.And we have every right to make fun of them.
Oh yeah,I think YA came up before...I liked that series that wasnt writen by Gillen.Thats a recurring theme.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

kkhohoho

So are we saying that comics, hell, any piece of media can't have something to say about politics? That they aren't allowed to make a point? Is that seriously what everyone's trying to say here?
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

HarryTrotter

Oh for the love of...
You know,Marvel provided the answer last week.They reprinted Stans editorial where he says Marvel first priority is to ENTERTAIN.Well,not this Marvel,their first priority is to preach,Brian Griffin style.Thou,Brian gets called out on his hipocrisy once in a while,but we are not allowed to criticise Marvel,apparently.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

kkhohoho

And is there nothing saying you can't make a point while also being entertaining? Don't get me wrong, I know this can easily go horribly wrong and you can wind up with BS like Captain Hydra. But as long as you don't overdo it, there's nothing wrong with making a point. Especially if it involves sticking it to the Orange.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

HarryTrotter

#3637
Quote from: kkhohoho on December 25, 2018, 06:07:08 AM
this can easily go horribly wrong and you can wind up with BS...
You answered your own question there.
If they want to do this BS,they can do their BS.But we have every right to comment on it.Or as Linkara once said: I will stop making fun of them once they stop doing stupid things.
Or another example,some 10 years ago,a right leaning writer was writing a team book for DC.And he sometimes used a revived 90's parody as his mouthpiece.And that guy from Kingdom Come had things to say about gun control.It was a bit cringy and people called him out on that.A bit different group of people piled up on the same writer because his Vertigo comic was pro-Israel.Which was a real streached theory IMO,but people complained.
BUT now,we are not allowed to mention anything about the preaching going on in Marvel comics.Hypocrisy?
But hey,if you like tha direction,cool,buy the books.But dont call people racist/sexist for not buying them.And dont dox them if they make fun of them on Youtube.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

kkhohoho

Quote from: HarryTrotter on December 25, 2018, 02:29:38 PM
Quote from: kkhohoho on December 25, 2018, 06:07:08 AM
this can easily go horribly wrong and you can wind up with BS...
You answered your own question there.
If they want to do this BS,they can do their BS.But we have every right to comment on it.Or as Linkara once said: I will stop making fun of them once they stop doing stupid things.
Or another example,some 10 years ago,a right leaning writer was writing a team book for DC.And he sometimes used a revived 90's parody as his mouthpiece.And that guy from Kingdom Come had things to say about gun control.It was a bit cringy and people called him out on that.A bit different group of people piled up on the same writer because his Vertigo comic was pro-Israel.Which was a real streached theory IMO,but people complained.
BUT now,we are not allowed to mention anything about the preaching going on in Marvel comics.Hypocrisy?
But hey,if you like tha direction,cool,buy the books.But dont call people racist/sexist for not buying them.And dont dox them if they make fun of them on Youtube.

The heck? That's not what I'm saying. At all. If someone's trying to make a point but that point is frigging stupid, then by all means they should be lambasted for it. But if they actually have a good point to make, then they should be allowed to make it. Or are you saying no-one should be allowed to make a point even if it's a good one?
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

HarryTrotter

Quote from: kkhohoho on December 25, 2018, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: HarryTrotter on December 25, 2018, 02:29:38 PM
Quote from: kkhohoho on December 25, 2018, 06:07:08 AM
this can easily go horribly wrong and you can wind up with BS...
You answered your own question there.
If they want to do this BS,they can do their BS.But we have every right to comment on it.Or as Linkara once said: I will stop making fun of them once they stop doing stupid things.
Or another example,some 10 years ago,a right leaning writer was writing a team book for DC.And he sometimes used a revived 90's parody as his mouthpiece.And that guy from Kingdom Come had things to say about gun control.It was a bit cringy and people called him out on that.A bit different group of people piled up on the same writer because his Vertigo comic was pro-Israel.Which was a real streached theory IMO,but people complained.
BUT now,we are not allowed to mention anything about the preaching going on in Marvel comics.Hypocrisy?
But hey,if you like tha direction,cool,buy the books.But dont call people racist/sexist for not buying them.And dont dox them if they make fun of them on Youtube.

The heck? That's not what I'm saying. At all. If someone's trying to make a point but that point is frigging stupid, then by all means they should be lambasted for it. But if they actually have a good point to make, then they should be allowed to make it. Or are you saying no-one should be allowed to make a point even if it's a good one?
And who decides what a good point and whats a stupid one?
Captain America fighting red hat wearing Hydra supporters,for example,is that a good point?What if think its a cheap jab at people the creative team didnt like?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

X-Force #1 There is some potential here,but its pretty amateurish.The story is all over the place and trying to do too much.And the art is inexperienced while trying to imitate Ottley.At least I think thats who they were trying to imitate.
Its raw.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#3641
So hey I'm back.

*looks above my own post*

So yeah that was a thing. I've got nothing. I missed breakfast and lunch, haven't eaten anything except Christmas snacks and I need a nap. I got nothing.

Anyway:

Amazing Spider-Man #12: Whether or not Spencer did Chip's J.Jonah Jameson justice (I do think he backslid a bit) takes a backseat as we get Spidey/JJ. Buddy Cop comedy, Arcade deathtraps (notice Arcade's big role in Avengers Arena might as well have never happened? I mean, if the rest of Marvel wants to pretend that book didn't happen, I suppose I can, but you know, I really did like Deathlocket before she turned mopey. Heck, put her in Champions!) and the reveal of the mystery villain of this arc (no, not that one, a different one. Yes Spencer had two mystery villains at the same time):

Spoiler
The Big Man. Ok, it's a villain a decent number of people probably have never heard of. I rather liked Frederick Foswell, he was a legit good character in the original Lee/Ditko run and it was surprisingly you didn't see him in more adaptations when pretty much everyone else from that era did (he managed to make it into Spectacular Spidey) but this? Meh. Is is Foswell? Is it someone else? Does it matter?

Quotewhile trying to imitate Ottley

While acknowledging that there are many out there who would disagree with me....why would anyone WANT to imitate Ottley?

Who draws comic art and goes "You know what my art needs? More arkward, bad-looking angular jaws, knees the shape of bricks and beady little black eyes".

QuoteYou know,Marvel provided the answer last week.They reprinted Stans editorial where he says Marvel first priority is to ENTERTAIN

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That was actually a really cool thing they did. I thought it was a nifty time capsule that was a good example of how things were different from the way Marvel interacts with its audience these days.

QuoteOh yeah,I think YA came up before...I liked that series that wasnt writen by Gillen.Thats a recurring theme.

I'm sure I've said it before, but Kieron Gillen's Young Avengers run was very much just his book Phonogram with the Young Avengers in it and slightly more coherent. Same artist too.

In fairness, Gillen's Uncanny X-Men run was almost good. I still really liked Unit as a villain.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Ottley might just be the closest comparison,its an odd halfbaked noodle-person clay faces artstyle.

Marvels bill of reader rights,just for a then and now comparison.We can still call the editors  by their first names and talk about comics in public.Anything else?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#3643
Quote from: Deaths Jester on December 27, 2018, 07:43:36 PM
To Silver Shocker:

Spoiler
It's going to be hard for the Big Man to be Foswell seeing as he was killed back in the 80s or so.  In fact, Foswell was only the first Big Man, the most recent one to dress up as Big Man was Foswell's daughter. Why do I get the feeling that Spencer will turn Jonah into the next Big Man?

Spoiler
Not even. He died in Amazing Spider-Man #52, 1967, back when Stan was still writing the book. John Romita Jr. was the artist by then. According to the Marvel Wiki (I made sure to look this up) he came back as a clone during the Clone Conspiracy and then died again. In any case, he could be back from the dead, this is superhero comics after all. Kinda hard for Jonah to be the new Big Man considering the new Big Man was going after Jonah and was in the same room with him by the end of the issue (unless you mean after THIS one) and I hope Spencer doesn't turn Jonah into the new Big Man (unless he's a good guy, like Foswell was as "Patch")

QuoteAlso, Deathlocket can't be in the Champions, see turned into a villain at the end of Avengers Arena and joined Zemo's Masters of Evil group...

Yeah, I read that one too, Avengers Undercover. But they can change her back into a hero if they want. Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver all had a face turn, as did Rogue. So did Zemo for a while, and all of the Thunderbolts. And while she did join some villains, she didn't actually carry out her assignment (which was to kill Captain America) The one who did got shot, Chase from Runaways, didn't die, so I feel she wasn't made irredeemable. As I said in this thread at least a year ago, I'd be perfectly happy to ignore the events of Undercover in a a future story (again, they ignored Arena and Undercover for future Arcade appearances, including the one in this arc of Spider-Man) and just have Death Locket appear again as a young hero. To my knowledge, and according to the Marvel Wiki, she hasn't actually appeared again outside out of a one-panel cameo in an issue of S.H.I.E.L.D when talking about all the different versions of Deathlocke.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

#3644
Conan #1 was actually good.I honestly didnt expect that.
Im dreding the next 2 or 3 issues.

On an unrelated note,why didnt any of the recent hip young team books use Jolt?Probably best they didnt,but they could have.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

We are now getting Old Man Quill.Seriously,Marvel...
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

The comics industry, Marvel in particular, mirror the video game industry a lot in their obsession with chasing trends and jumping on bandwagon. Peter Quill sounds especially not-fun. Considering how beat down and miserable Old Man Logan was, I shudder to think what the emotionally stunted man-child that is Peter Quill will be like as a run-down, miserable old man. (and keep in mind, I love Star-Lord when he's written well; when he's not, as seen in Guardians of the Galaxy cartoon, he's insufferably whiny)

Come to think of it though, between Marvel and Star Wars, Disney/Marvel sure likes to turn our childhood heroes into miserable, aging failures, don't they? 
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

In regards to recycling one complete series,comic industry is pretty unique.
Can expect Old Man Deadpool or Old Man Black Panther soon?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

"Old Man Thor... AT The End of Time."

HarryTrotter

Quote from: daglob on January 08, 2019, 04:04:24 PM
"Old Man Thor... AT The End of Time."

I think Jason Aaron did that already.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

#3650
I can see an Old Man Tony movie happening in a few years as a farewell to the character.Or at least thats how I would play it.
What I wouldnt do is have Old Man Hawkeye brutally murdering other Thunderbolts,but I guess thats why I dont write for Marvel.That and I dont have a blue checkmark on my twitter profile.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#3651
Time for a Marvel comics roundup:

Champions #1:

This is one of those issues that's basically just setup until you get to the final page that's the premise of the actual opening story (see also, the new Shazam #1):

Spoiler
Mile Morales makes a deal with Mephisto. I wonder if people are angry about this like they were with OMD? Though, in this case, we do not yet know what the deal is or why he made it.

Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #1:

Same thing, only there's a hook at the end of the main story, and then at the end of a backup story; the latter is the more interesting:

Spoiler
Aunt May got tested for cancer, may have cancer and hasn't told Peter. Considering what that dumb bell did last time she almost died, can you blame her? Guess Spidey better make a deal with Mephisto again LOL! That could be an important event in the life of Spider-Man. Now, on the one hand, I would say that if  it really was an important plot point, it would have happened in Amazing, but the Jameson plot happened in PPSM (which this book is the direct replacement for).

Though this is a perfect opportunity to share a quote from Jim Shooter I read a few years ago that comments on the modern state of superhero comics:

Quote"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."

Can't say I disagree with that assessment, jaded as it is.


Avengers #12:

Spoiler
Jason Aaron has opted to bring some old buddies from the X-Men books over to this one: Broo and Dr. Nemesis! Neat.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Merchant

I have not bought comics in years but now and then read up on some goings on.

I gladly enjoy not reading today. I loved comics back in the 80s and 90s before life changed and I had to stop.

Some of the stuff going on today, I would not waste time or money on.

HarryTrotter

Asm #13-14
Frank Grimes.Junior. ☺️
The Simpsons didnt invent that one,but I keept thinking Frank Grimes Jr the whole time.
From #14___ Peter,you are only in your mid 20s.
No,not even in comic book time.No way.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

 ^_^ I was thinking the same thing, in both cases.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Maybe Im just being obsessive about it,but by last count Fantastic Four #1 happened in 2001 (and Reed and Ben were WW2 veterans,but thats a story for another day) and assuming Peter was 15-16 at the time thats means hes now around 35-36.
Either avoid that question or at least try to keep up with your own internal logic.
Granted,quite a few people pointed out that 2001 date doesnt really work in the scope of the greater shared universe,but lets go with that for the sake of having a starting point.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#3656
Oh I know what you mean. I've been thinking about it since last night. Flash Thompson no longer served in Vietnam because if he did that'd make him around Stallone's age. But he did serve in Afganistan. Ditto Tony Stark being in the middle east, as adapted in the Iron Man movie.

But I was thinking about "teenager-turned young-adult" characters that debuted at least a decade after Peter Parker. If Pete's in his mid twenties, then what does that make Richie Rider, Cannonball, Sunspot, Danielle Moonstar, Wolfsbane, Speedball, Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, Darkhawk, and probably a bunch I forgot about?

Of course, I remember when Roger Stern did a sequel to "Nothing can Stop The Juggernaut" in post-OMD Spidey, and claimed the original 1982 storyline happened "months ago."

Then again, over at DC, Batman's entire comic history apparently happened in the span of 10 years.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Few that I can remember...Hellblazer ran in real time.So does Judge Dredd.
Punisher is also no longer a Vietnam vet.But Magneto is still a Holocaust survivor.Granted dying and coming back to life a few times could explain that.And Magneto was at one point de-aged to a baby.
IIRC sometimes in the new 52 Batman said hes been doing this for 12 years so he has to be at least in is mid 30's or close to 40.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

Asm #16 We reached our first event.I knew how this was going to play out,but clone army of Kravens would have been cooler.
Also the animal theme/totemism from JMS era.I hope Morlun isnt around at least.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

So I want to interject the constant asm bashfest (which... Yeah no I dropped the book awhile ago. I tried, even caught up because the new scorpion design looked decent enough... But no, didn't hold my interest.) to bash the Xmen books right now because I recently caught up with a few things and dang if I don't hate what I've read.

Execution/xtermination/that book that finally put an end to the past Xmen in the present nonsense- Now, let's be clear: it's a move that's been needed for awhile. I enjoyed them while they were around, but with real Jean alive again, it was time for them to go back.

That does not, however, excuse how that book was handled. In order to "neatly" wrap up the original Xmen's return, side characters from their book are killed off in gruesome fashion, several characters are killed off just... because, character growth is jettisoned for the sake of magic mind control hound nonsense, and the entire book exists to tease Cyclops' resurrection.

Return of Wolverine- I don't even know where to begin here. So... Wolverine is resurrected by a mutant who controls zombies but she let his mind go for reasons and even though she knows he's rebelling she takes him to her murder satellite expecting the mutant superhero to... Not stop her from killing all of Earth's population? Also she built this without being detected in a world with Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom? Whaaat?!?!

It then insults me by plugging a follow-up book involving the infinity guantlet that involved the spirits of the infinity stones and I just wanted to read a freaking Wolverine story.

Uncanny X-men- I hated the whole story with Xman and Legion. It's dumb and full of false depth and gives Xman a Messiah complex out of nowhere (I know they justify it in the ending but the justification is stupid) and it all ends up with another "no more mutants" mess in which all the Xmen are supposedly dead.

The only, ONLY good thing to come out of the xbooks is... Despite hating the lead in and hating the tone and not caring for either's resurrection, I DO appreciate the Wolverine and Cyclops putting aside their problems and working together dynamic. They haven't done much but fight off some hate groups and urine off cap, but I do like the dynamic.

Sorry, binged some various xbooks last weekend and needed to vent.