The skin off.

[Star]

I reckon stick to skins first.

If that competition works well, then you can expand it to include projects, like "best skin/skope team". That would be totally sweet.

But yeah, start the competition with skins first ... get the rules down, decide on who the judges will be, and see how many people actually want to participate.

See I think that is unfair. You should not be limited to meshes/skopes. I think options would really make this interesting and an actual challenge and give people with different styles a better chance.

A good example of this :

All three are the same character, different meshes and it makes a difference.

Ultimately, it just depends how much work people want to put into their entry. Sticking to skins would be less time consuming ... then again, working in teams (with one person focusing on skinning, the other on skoping) would fix that.

You've also got to consider how skoping would be judged ... would a more complex skope be rated higher than a simple, yet accurate, one? Would a skoped mesh have an advantage over a plain mesh? What if someone not only skoped, but created an entire new mesh for their character?

This could probably also be handled by the tiering system. Anybody want to suggest the number of tiers and their definitions? Like Tier 1 (skins/skopes/original meshes), Tier 2 (skins: advanced), Tier 3 (skins: intermediate), etc.

I was also thinking of five of the top creators (AA, C6, etc), as judges for the lower tiers, and the entire forum votes on the top tier.

[style]

I like that suggestion Star

[Courtnall6]

Here's the "up to date" version

[Figure Fan]

I think that we should keep it consistent, and that skinners should have to stick with one mesh. Otherwise, the point of the challenge--the skinning work--will get lost in the hexing/skoping/meshing. I think that..working with a mesh, however it is, should be a part of the challenge.

[murs47]

I think that we should keep it consistent, and that skinners should have to stick with one mesh. Otherwise, the point of the challenge--the skinning work--will get lost in the hexing/skoping/meshing. I think that..working with a mesh, however it is, should be a part of the challenge.

Agreed. Plus, if you throw in hexing/skoping/meshing, can you still call it a "skin off"?

[style]

Yes you can because the skin makes the hex/skope/mesh. Said the bias skoper. lol!

[Alaric]

Since people seem to have strong feelings on both sides of this issue, why not simply have two contests? You could have a "skin-off", where everyone has to work with the same mesh, and a , uh, "character-off" (or something), where people have complete leeway to chose, skope, or create meshes, so long as the skin itself is their own original creation.

[laughing paradox]

It seems, when I suggested having a skinning challenge again, that most people said they were burned out from the contest and that's why it died.

So I don't see how having two (three?) challenges is going to alleviate that particular problem. It'll just make it burn into the ground that much faster.

[Figure Fan]

I just think that..the challenge should display individual skinning talent, not meshing. If you can take a simple mesh and make a complex skin on it look great, then that is a testament to your skinning ability. Add skoped bits, and now you're removing instances where skinning would make the difference, and you're muddling the focus of the competition.  *shrugs*

Just make it a skinning competition?

[Blkcasanova247]

I say we take TUE out back and flog him! Sorry...nothing constructive to add...please continue.

[Alaric]

It seems, when I suggested having a skinning challenge again, that most people said they were burned out from the contest and that's why it died.

So I don't see how having two (three?) challenges is going to alleviate that particular problem. It'll just make it burn into the ground that much faster.

On the other hand, there may be skinners who are inspired and/or interested in one of the two proposed types of challenge, but not by the other- so, with two contests, you may get a larger number of entries between the two.

[deano_ue]

I say we take TUE out back and flog him! Sorry...nothing constructive to add...please continue.

bring it ya wannabe

[Tomato]

Honestly, I'd say rather then confine ourselves to a specific mesh, maybe confine ourselves to a general mesh set? Something Like the Irrational basic meshes.

[Figure Fan]

Like Alaric is saying, maybe two challenges would work out well.

Maybe one could be a skinning-only challenge (on one a mesh or a few options), and the other could be something like a "mashup" where you submit your absolute best effort consisting of whatever elements you needed, and it could be judged as a whole, not just by the skin.

[AfghanAnt]

I really think the only way this sort of challenge could be fair to all tiers is allowing skinners to use every tool in their bag and I see skoping as a tool.

Just hear me out, if this was just going to be owned characters are contestants forced to skin on the same exact mesh even if they prefer a different one? If we are doing originals are we not allowing contestants the ability to recreate their designs as exact as possible (i.e. adding bootcuffs or pouches).

Also if there is skoping is there also no hexxing?

[deano_ue]

seeing as i started this idea i suppose i should put my own thoughts forwards, the only constraints i was planning to enforce was the character, not the mesh/skope/hex etc. the whole point was to showcase talent as a skinner, to give people free region within a limited brief

it be like an art contest but telling everyone that they can only use colouring pencils

[AfghanAnt]

it be like an art contest but telling everyone that they can only use colouring pencils

I totally agree.

[Star]

Okay then, forget tiers ... lets say there is Advanced (skinning / skoping / hexing) and Intermediate (skinning). Everyone who wants to skin on a skope they've created (Afghan Ant, Ultimate Evil, etc) can compete in Advanced. Everyone who just wants to skin on a pre-existing mesh/skope (Figure Fan, etc) can compete in Intermediate.

How about we choose five complex design characters that have never been created before (Advanced) and five characters with more simple designs & pre-existing or provided skopes/meshes (Intermediate)?

I was also thinking Johnny Patches could provide some skoped meshes for Intermediate ... he has a pile of unique characters that have yet to be skinned.

[billdamn22]

OK... Who decides who is in what tier? Did I miss how that was going to work? I would be perfectly happy having the rounds be completely random. Anyone interested can put their name in and for round 1 two names are picked and a character (mainstream, original, avatar or redesign). If you get stuck going up against someone considered top tier then, so be it. Try hard and put out something that you can be proud of. I am sure the judging would be completely unbiased. If ya can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Plain and simple.
To me the important thing is who the judges should be. It also shouldn't matter if there are skopes and such. Multiple challenges will mean multiple headaches. This really shouldn't be such a BIG issue. IMO

[daglob]

What about first, second, and third place awards? I mean, IF C6 or AA were in first place, how bad would second place really be?

While I don't have a problem with skinning scoped meshes (might be fun to recieve a random JP scope and have to skin it. Might be? Heck, I know it would be.), I'm not sure that I would like to include my own scoping abilities as part of the competition.

[Courtnall6]

If skoping and hexxing are allowed (by a skinner in the contest) and the skope/hex is also considered during voting ...it is no longer a "skin off". It becomes 3D art contest on character design.

If you want an actual "skin off" all participants must use the same mesh/skope/hex selected by the judges and voting be based purely on the skinners 2D work.

[deano_ue]

If skoping and hexxing are allowed (by a skinner in the contest) and the skope/hex is also considered during voting ...it is no longer a "skin off". It becomes 3D art contest on character design.

If you want an actual "skin off" all participants must use the same mesh/skope/hex selected by the judges and voting be based purely on the skinners 2D work.

OK... Who decides who is in what tier? Did I miss how that was going to work? I would be perfectly happy having the rounds be completely random. Anyone interested can put their name in and for round 1 two names are picked and a character (mainstream, original, avatar or redesign). If you get stuck going up against someone considered top tier then, so be it. Try hard and put out something that you can be proud of. I am sure the judging would be completely unbiased. If ya can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Plain and simple.
To me the important thing is who the judges should be. It also shouldn't matter if there are skopes and such. Multiple challenges will mean multiple headaches. This really shouldn't be such a BIG issue. IMO

as much as i like having creative control, the guys has a point

[Figure Fan]

If skoping and hexxing are allowed (by a skinner in the contest) and the skope/hex is also considered during voting ...it is no longer a "skin off". It becomes 3D art contest on character design.

If you want an actual "skin off" all participants must use the same mesh/skope/hex selected by the judges and voting be based purely on the skinners 2D work.

My thoughts exactly.

[Alaric]

You see, this is why I was suggesting two contests. Both points of view are, as far as I can see, equally valid. They simply result from looking at the idea in different ways. Just because two people disagree doesn't always mean one is right and the other wrong in some absolute sense- sometimes, it really is a matter of personal opinion. I doubt very much either side is going to convince the other. Having two contests, or two different categories in one contest (really the same thing using different words), strikes me as the ONLY way to allow everyone to have the kind of contest they want. If calling it separate contests bothers people, just call it different categories in one contest. Many contests include the possibility of winning in various different categories- why not this one?

Remember, one way allows more of a true contest of overall creativity, while the otehr allows more of a true contest of skill at using what one is given. They're both valid.

[Vertex]

I honestly got a chuckle from reading all the debate on this...

"fair" "honest" "unbiased" I'm sorry but the most fair honest wonderful person in the world who would try to judge no matter whether it's the same mesh, diff mesh, 2 skinners, 20 skinners.... is going to be influenced by personal choice and preference. We've all made or seen a skin or mesh.. then seen someone pick something else and gone.. "are they freakin' insane???" My personal favorite nit pick is when people skin or mesh a character who's known for being very lean and wiry and then make them muscle bound and ready to enter the wrestling ring.

I'm not saying contests like this aren't fun, shouldn't be held or anything of the sort... I'm saying quit thinking about it so damn much.. do some blind drawings for who gets paired up with who.. who judges who and let's laugh at the outcomes... cause I guarantee there will be some upsets in the judging and we'll all think it's bizarre! 

[Podmark]

I really think you guys need to decide what exactly this is going to be.

Is it a pure best skinner contest? In that case C6 is probably right. If you allow different characters in the contest it's going to muddle the judging. Say one skinner does Superman and the other does Wolverine - now you've got character bias and costume design bias potentially at play.
Also if it's a pure skinning contest then tiers are essentially a must. There's only a handful of people who would have any chance of winning a free for all skin off. But if you tier it then it gives everyone a chance. Deciding how to set the tiers is a little trickier. I like the idea of people choosing the tier, but theoretically I could choose the lowest tier and pretty much guarantee a victory. I like the idea of setting the tiers based on specific criteria - beginner, done a base, etc. - and allowing the skinner the option to upgrade to a higher tier if they want. Judges would be in charge of determining tiers probably.

Is it a character design contest? In that case you gotta allow full skoping/hexing/meshing. In this skinning ability case take a backseat and design can take priority. A weak skinner could still pull through if he had a great design.

[Haljack]

I like the idea of criteria for tiers. As for somebody entering a lower tier so they can win it how about a community vote, for example I post a link to my previous skins and an communtiy vote determine what tier I'm in based on existing work. We do this before the skin off starts. You feel you've been placed too low, prove it by winning your tier. I'm even tempted to enter this.

[Tomato]

I agree with C6, but I guess for somewhat different reasons... I'm old enough (in forum time) to remember a period where you didn't have nifskope, or Ren's amazing mesh work. You worked with what you had, what ideas you could come up with, and so on. I remember, back before I got my own copy of max, thinking that as long as something held the general shape you wanted, you could take it wherever you wanted with your textures. A highlight here, a shadow there, that can change everything.

So yes, while I think skoping AND meshing (because that'd be where I'd be trumping you guys in a full-on contest ) plays a part in the overall look, at the end of the day, it's what WE do that defines those pieces.

[Vertex]

And then you can vote.. on a vote.. about having a vote!

[Podmark]

I like the idea of criteria for tiers. As for somebody entering a lower tier so they can win it how about a community vote, for example I post a link to my previous skins and an communtiy vote determine what tier I'm in based on existing work. We do this before the skin off starts. You feel you've been placed too low, prove it by winning your tier. I'm even tempted to enter this.

Well if we set criteria for tiers it would prevent a skinner, say myself, entering a tier they are too good for.