Community Project and MOD IDEA - Freedom Reborn: Legacy

Started by lugaru, March 18, 2010, 01:46:10 PM

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Previsionary

#60
Actually, yes, there have been people in the past that have complained about which skins or meshes were used in mods and other projects (and it was pretty common for newer members to "unintentionally" bash skinners when requesting better versions of the same characters). Sometimes publicly, sometimes behind scenes. That was one of the issues one person crusaded against Benton because it "had too many c6 skins." As for the poll, how can one take it into consideration when it was started during said drama [read: high emotion]?

Anyway, if it's supposed to be a community pack first and foremost, then I don't see why such a huge focus is being placed on mainstream stuff when it can easily be in accommodating packs (and most of it is very easy to find if you're not hung up on one style or skinner). I'd think attention would be put forward on content that expanded the base game first before getting to the miscellaneous "play as this cool character from the comics" stuff when that's subjective anyway.
Disappear when you least expe--

lugaru

Quote from: Previsionary on March 23, 2010, 03:45:15 PM
Anyway, if it's supposed to be a community pack first and foremost, then I don't see why such a huge focus is being placed on mainstream stuff when it can easily be in accommodating packs (and most of it is very easy to find if you're not hung up on one style or skinner). I'd think attention would be put forward on content that expanded the base game first before getting to the miscellaneous "play as this cool character from the comics" stuff when that's subjective anyway.

Yeah, I kind of still want Irrational universe characters and Avs but here is the deal about mainstream characters:

By doing 'em as expansions (self installing) they could be 100% creator focused. Crazy tallented skinners like C6 often do entire teams so it would be easy for him (or somebody with his permission) to put out a C6 classic X-men. Even bad skinners have something to offer if it is unique... I've got a couple of original teams people might download or a version of the elseworlds Teen Titans I did super early on. They dont look amazing but I'm probably the only place to get those characters.

So potentially we could have our cake (newbie focused community pack) and eat it too (creator centric new way of distributing content).

cripp12

Can't you just say here is my mod and if you want your skins to be included in the expansion here is the format.
(Listen to me not knowing how to mod. ) :banghead:
Send those that want in the character files and they can replace the standard.  Even I know how to cut and past.
Is this to much?

BentonGrey

#63
Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 03:36:09 PM
Quote from: Symon on March 23, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
2. Just who's Captain America will you include. Too much risk of 'this packs no good to me because it has a 'rubbish' Captain America. I want a good one!'.
Has anyone complained that a certain mesh/skin of a character wasn't used in any Campaign Mod? Why would someone NOT complain that a certain Cap mesh/skin wasn't used in a "Campaign Mod" but BE upset if a certain Cap mesh/skin wasn't used in a "Rumble Room Mod"? Am I missing something? What's the difference? The mod creator chooses the content to put in the mod. It shouldn't matter what kind of mod it is. All that should matter is that permission has been given to use content that wasn't made by the mod-creator. I read about the debacle after the fact, and I assumed that this was all figured out. Wasn't there a poll by TommyBoy that settled this?

Ha....keep in mind, we are not precisely a democracy here.  Yes, the majority was overwhelmingly behind my project, but if content creators are uncomfortable with certain things, we take great pains to protect their rights.  The question wasn't whether the majority wanted a mod, the majority always want more content, but whether or not the content creators wanted it.  The issue was resolved in that specific case (but not by that poll), but many larger questions remained unanswered, because we could not come to a consensus.  

Our regard for our creators is a good thing, as I said before, but you run into problems when individuals try to speak for some mysterious, silent "they," or when others sit back and grow silently angry.  It is something of a catch 22.  People get confused and angry.  It would be best to stick to things you are sure about.

Personally, I think making an Irrational superpack, with all of our tech and stuff, would be a great first step.  There are even a few MORE mods in the works that use these characters and settings.  

If you were to pursue the content pack, you could actually manage it to a certain degree if you're dealing with characters who have just one mesh and a range of skins.  Offer to take donations, and just set every character on "random."  These days, however, there aren't many characters who have just one mesh, one skope, or even just one VERSION on one mesh or skope.  You can't randomize meshes though, and there would be a built in bias in favor of whoever's work was attached to whichever character by default.  

I understand the fixation on mainstream characters, because, let's face it, that is what most people want.  Yeah, once you're in the community you may discover the Strangers and see just what you've been missing, but when most people go out to search for FF content, it's to see if anyone has made their favorite superhero.  However, as we've seen, a content pack is a troublesome thing.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

TrajkLogik

So let me get this straight. Even though some content by some is left out and the content that is included has permission to be there, you still couldn't release it because the others, who content isn't included may object, even if it's only a select few? So, not only do you need permission from the creators who's content is in the mod, but you also need permission of the select few that control mod releases?
What happened when the newbies complained about the skins in those mods Prev mentioned? Did they get there way or were they shooed off?

GogglesPizanno

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 05:08:31 PM
So let me get this straight. Even though some content by some is left out and the content that is included has permission to be there, you still couldn't release it because the others, who content isn't included may object, even if it's only a select few? So, not only do you need permission from the creators who's content is in the mod, but you also need permission of the select few that control mod releases?
What happened when the newbies complained about the skins in those mods Prev mentioned? Did they get there way or were they shooed off?

Welcome to the endless debate and why I run for my bunker when it comes up....  :D

TrajkLogik

#66
Yes, I see now how people got upset.
I don't see anyone getting upset about BG releasing the DCUG which was the mod that caused the last argument. And it's being released in the same state that caused the argument minus some missing missions?
What about the people here that make stuff that want to see this kind of mod. They get overridden by a few others here that make stuff that don't want it released?

BentonGrey

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 06:14:29 PM
Yes, I see now how people got upset.
I don't see anyone getting upset about BG releasing the DCUG which was the mod that caused the last argument. And it's being released in the same state that caused the argument minus some missing missions?
What about the people here that make stuff that want to see this kind of mod. They get overridden by a few others here that make stuff that don't want it released?


No it's not.  It's been expanded in some specific ways, I just didn't FINISH the expansions, and problematic content was removed.  I'd rather we didn't discuss that anymore.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

yell0w_lantern

Right, I can understand the reluctance of letting people redistribute your work if they are not doing something new with it. I can also understand the trepidation that a pack may be taken as the 'best of' or the 'one stop shop' and thereby a lot of other creators are forgotten.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that when we use the term, "mod," we're usually referring to a "full conversion mod" a opposed to mod that is more-or-less a resource pack.

And speaking for myself, I know that I sometimes have to do a reality check when I see folks use meshes by another mesher that I done a version of as well (I'm looking at you, Batman). I admit it, I get a little jealous. But in the end, I made them for myself and if other people like them and use them that's fine.
Yellow Lantern smash!

TrajkLogik

Quote from: yell0w_lantern on March 23, 2010, 06:32:21 PM
Right, I can understand the reluctance of letting people redistribute your work if they are not doing something new with it. I can also understand the trepidation that a pack may be taken as the 'best of' or the 'one stop shop' and thereby a lot of other creators are forgotten.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that when we use the term, "mod," we're usually referring to a "full conversion mod" a opposed to mod that is more-or-less a resource pack.
Yes, but the work included in the mod has the permission of the creators to be there. So why would they also be reluctant? Also, the "full version mod", as you put, typically includes meshes and skins that are not changed, but rather just added to the story with new missions, maps, attributes, etc. The meshes and skins are the same as what is available to download at the creators sites, only, as you put it, the mod creator was 'doing something new with it', by adding missions, maps, attributes, etc. This is the same as what is trying to be done here. The only difference is there isn't a storyline. If I'm correct, there'll be new missions, objects, attributes, etc.
Also, the characters that seem to be in contention are mainstream characters. No one here owns the rights to mainstream characters.

cripp12

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 06:45:15 PM
Also, the characters that seem to be in contention are mainstream characters. No one here owns the rights to mainstream characters.

This to me says it all.

yell0w_lantern

If you're just going to stick up you proverbial middle finger and say "I'll do what I want," then why are we even discussing this?
Yellow Lantern smash!

lugaru

I think there is a point to the disussion, it is relevant to the project and our attitudes in general.

Like I said, I can live without Mainstream content. I've just had to re-install the game a bunch of times and having somthing like thi would make my life so easy.

Does anyone have suggestions for non character (skin/mesh) assets? I'm so behind on maps, fx and such. Also there is a whole EZscript subculture I'm just now gettng into because I only ever used the game for watch mode matches.

Lastly I had a failed project (organized watch mode tournament) and a standard release  like this might make it viable again, if anyone cares. I still have a lot of the teams I recieved.

Previsionary

#73
No, as content creators, they do not own rights to the characters or their trademarked images (unless it's a custom design, then they have some rights over the actual costume and that's about it); however, they have SOME rights because it is their work and unique styles that are attached. No one is claiming ownership of the actual characters but of the actual work that went into it. I feel like that particular issue comes up every discussion (all 3,000 times) and it's the same defense and offense each time. So, to get it all out of the way:

1. The main issue with packs such of these are the superlatives. If one is too lazy to really search the sites and find content that they favor, why would we assume they'd go through all the trouble of changing "this and that" to fit "that or this." Barely anyone does that with actual mods. Is it too hard? No. Will the majority do it? No. Will someone complain about it? Yes.

2. Another back and forth discussion is that some creators would rather have people go to their collective sites and grab their content and what ever else they have to offer. The exploration factor takes a hit with content packs to a degree. Why explore when this is supposedly the "best" (or essentials) the community has to offer or donate?

- Using the Fallout analogy that was presented earlier in the thread by Lugaru, a key difference between that game and its community and this one is that this community is for a game that "died out" with the public. Also, Fallout has the majority of its modifications in one or two places for the most part, no? We don't. They're all over the place. Obviously it's easier to grab large content packs and still be exposed to other things when everything is in one location.

3. Tones. Keep those in check when having discussions. Be aware of how you're actually coming across because that's what sparked a lot of arguments in the past.

4. Yes, there are egos in play in this discussion, but guess what? The community kinda built up and pushed those egos, which is another underlying issue. Some people are going to be protective of their work (and sometimes that spreads out into protecting all like minded work).

As for how work that was criticized in mods were handled before... that always depended on the situation. There's no set of rules for that just like most things aren't set in stone. Yes, comments like "this skin, mesh, or what have you shouldn't be there!" have stopped mods or set off arguments in the past before the last blow up; they just weren't flare ups that always took place for the public to see.



Anyway, the essentials to me are the things that people need help configuring to expand their base game. I'd say FFX, ezfx, and the map pack fit in their easily. Generic voices and extra characters are fine as well, I suppose, but it really depends on how much work the organizer is willing to do in ffedit (which is a tedious process).
Disappear when you least expe--

TrajkLogik

I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

murs47

Maybe you guys should figure out exactly what you want to be included in this community project. Once you have, figure out who wants to donate/volunteer their content work. Finally, set a limit as to how many creations per creator are put into the project.

EXAMPLE: If the plan is to include 80 skins and you have 8 skinners volunteering their work, set the limit to 10 skins per user. This way, no one's feelings get hurt because "x" skinner has more than "y" skinner 's stuff included.

See, a little communism can't hurt.*

*murs47 is in no way, shape, or form, a member of the communist party. "Please don't come after me Senator McCarthy"

murs47

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:16:32 PM
I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Negative, you can continue it.

BentonGrey

Dang pinko commie punk!

Spoiler
Seriously though, some type of randomization and equalization might be employed to ease tensions, in much the direction Murs was thinking.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

TrajkLogik

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 19, 2010, 04:22:45 PM
Well, first you'd have to see who wants to donate. Find out who is donating what and if there are doubles, or triples of a certain contribution then most likely the friendly people donating will concede to each other to avoid stepping on each others' toes. Even then, after the main release, people who didn't get to contribute all of what they wanted, can make an expansion that adds their own content.
People donating will (should) know that they can't have every character use their skin or mesh. If there are 50 characters being made and 10 people donating meshes, then let those people choose 5 of their meshes each to donate for various characters.
[/quote]
Quote from: murs47 on March 23, 2010, 08:22:19 PM
Maybe you guys should figure out exactly what you want to be included in this community project. Once you have, figure out who wants to donate/volunteer their content work. Finally, set a limit as to how many creations per creator are put into the project.

EXAMPLE: If the plan is to include 80 skins and you have 8 skinners volunteering their work, set the limit to 10 skins per user. This way, no one's feelings get hurt because "x" skinner has more than "y" skinner 's stuff included.

See, a little communism can't hurt.*

*murs47 is in no way, shape, or form, a member of the communist party. "Please don't come after me Senator McCarthy"
I said the same thing, but got ignored?

Well I actually have it pretty much finished. So, there's really no "continuing" it. I guess I should have asked "can I release it?"

murs47

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:39:39 PM
I said the same thing, but got ignored?

Lol, sorry man. As silly as this may sound, it's probably due to your lack of an avatar. Imagery captures people's attention.

QuoteI guess I should have asked "can I release it?"

Yah


lugaru

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:39:39 PM
Well I actually have it pretty much finished. So, there's really no "continuing" it. I guess I should have asked "can I release it?"

No, becase I'll wreck my compuer trying to merge it with DCU. "99% done.. OH NO!!!"

I agree there is nothing wrong with a little communism (I dont make each roomate buy their own toilet paper) but only if it encourages artists instead of supressing 'em. I say we use what fits from whomever wants to donate. Like I've said before, I'm not planning an awards show or a clearing house for kitbashed material... just a fun and useful mod for new players and people who suck at merging like me

I'm feeling optimistic and cant wait to hear some obscure recomendations, espcially for attributes since those always scare me.

GogglesPizanno

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:16:32 PM
I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Yeah, release the thing. It meets the vague, gray, nebulous 'approval' criteria. You did missions, custom AI's, etc... You made it your own.
It is not just a "content pack". And you got all permissions...  I say Be free little (or big) mod, Be Free!!

TrajkLogik

Well, I don't understand what difference between my mod and what Lugaru is suggesting. Isn't he trying to include a whole bunch of new stuff along with the characters? If people are worried about there being a "Best Of" mod pack, then why not allow people to create their own version of the DCUG or Marvel Universe According to Trajk (MUT), or any kind of universe, or even an amalgam of universes. If you encourage responsible mod-making rather than scaring anyone into releasing anything from fear of ticking one person off, then you won't have to worry about a "Best Of" because their would be multiple mods with the same characters but using different meshes, skins, FX, Missions, etc.



Previsionary

qwuh? Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis? No one is scaring anybody. Have you not seen the constant stream of content that has come out this month alone as far as mods go? This particular subject is shaky grounds because of history. That's why everyone is being careful about it so that we can avoid similar issues as before. My understanding of this subject is that Lugaru wants the community to participate in creating an ESSENTIAL pack (not all new content) that could reduce the need to manually reinstall FFX, ezfx, the map pack, and possibly voice packs (and other miscellaneous stuff that may pop up later).

Speaking of, I know I've seen several people bring up Marvel according to [appropriate member] a few times, but how is it you slipped under the radar and completed a whole mod, lol?
Disappear when you least expe--

daglob

Quote from: murs47 on March 23, 2010, 08:24:00 PM
Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:16:32 PM
I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Negative, you can continue it.

:) Goody

TrajkLogik

#85
Quote from: Previsionary on March 23, 2010, 11:47:43 PM
qwuh? Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis? No one is scaring anybody. Have you not seen the constant stream of content that has come out this month alone as far as mods go? This particular subject is shaky grounds because of history. That's why everyone is being careful about it so that we can avoid similar issues as before. My understanding of this subject is that Lugaru wants the community to participate in creating an ESSENTIAL pack (not all new content) that could reduce the need to manually reinstall FFX, ezfx, the map pack, and possibly voice packs (and other miscellaneous stuff that may pop up later).

Speaking of, I know I've seen several people bring up Marvel according to [appropriate member] a few times, but how is it you slipped under the radar and completed a whole mod, lol?
Just as several others create stuff, yet don't tell us because they're making it for themselves and haven't decided to share it or not, or want it to be a surprise when it's released. Over the past year, I've learned basic scripting with some help and learned a bit of skoping. I've been posting pics of some of my skopes in the "What have you skoped lately" thread. I never mentioned I was making a mod at the time because I had no intentions to do so at the time because I wasn't very good. But as I got better with the scripting and skoping I wanted to share what I've been able to do with the community.

TrajkLogik

#86
Quote from: lugaru on March 23, 2010, 08:56:31 PM
I'm feeling optimistic and cant wait to hear some obscure recomendations, espcially for attributes since those always scare me.
Attributes? How about Electrical Control. Add commands to electrical objects on the map that:
1. Summon Electrical beings similar to Fire Elementals used by Red Sun.
2. Fires an electrical bolt at enemies or explode with an electrical explosion.
3. Allows you to teleport across the map by "traveling" through the electric grid. When you're close enough to the electrical object you can "jump" into the object. Then, all electrical devices on the map have an "emerge" command that allows you to choose which location on the map the character "re-materializes" at.
4. Can heal damage or recharge your energy.

lugaru

If somebody has made this they deserve a medal. I can see how it can be done kind of sort off... a lot of it is available as regular attacks and attributes but have we created a full map teleport that is ingame standard yet? I would love to see one kind of like the "zero cost teleport" that Dr. Mike baked in. On that note I would like to create some baked in standard attacks that are useful such as "snipe" which has an extended range or "stretch attack" which is a distance punch similar to the killarilla with a whip. I experimented with that a LOT when the game first came out and got some fun results on what worked and what did not. Also I can see some full map area attacks working for certain spellcasters.

Also does anyone know what is the difference between the most recent release and the previous ones that you need to set up the newest powers elsewhere? Is there a way to work them into an updated Control Center? I know that is a job for the FFX team but heck, anything done to that mod benefits every memeber of the community.

In a distant future when I have a day off I might work on custom objects, that seems to be something that I'm more interested in than anyone else but I love the stuff you can do with limey lure swaps, energy constructs and other powers that generate objects. One of my favorite tricks was one of my punishers that summoned a frag mine entitled "front towards enemy" as an actual exploding object. Also it would be cool to have new resources for map makers integrated into the core for future maps such as radioactive barrels, antimatter (explosion causes objects to explode), "people turrets" (minion summoning spawn points) and such.

People are concerned that we are not out to make anything new and yeah, on the surface we are not because IM not much of a creator but hopefully this will provide the base for some wacky new baked in options that everyone can enjoy.

daglob

Okay, the basic idea is to make a package/mod for newbies that will get them off and running almost immediately, right? At the same time, offer a kind of sampler for what is out there to whet their apetites for more. To that end, I think at least one mesh and one skin from each creator who can be contacted should be included.

Are all of Irrational's "base" meshes included in the Steam pack? If not, they should be included in this project. What about others? Female Longhair Cape, Female Basic Cape, Male Belt Guns, Male Suit Guns... how many of these should be included? There area a lot of  community products that have been around so long they are almost "basic" necessities. Look at all of Beyonder's Male Basic Cape meshes; how many characters are skinned for them?

What about keyframes? Should examples of other Male Basic compatable keyframes be included? It would have helped me, it know. Have a folder for Male Basic (or VX Male) Speedster Keyframes (for example), with a mesh, the appropriate keyframes, and a Standard skin of a speedster. Something like that might require actively solicitating some people's work, instead of just hoping they would donate.

Donating: if the creator has already said "use in a mod just give me credit", should we consider it donated, or should they be contacted and get special permission? Didn't somebody already bring this up?

Is it possible to script a sample Danger Room scenario, one that run istelf for a minute or two then stops? Might be useful.

Lastly, FF1 or Fv3R?

lugaru

Im thinking  :ffvstr: since it is the platform most people work on these days.

I think a 1 minute danger room match is very possible... It is not my area of expertise but it would be cool to have a winner declared based on most characters standing or something.

As for people who say "just use my stuff" I would want to double check just to be safe. People change, and while I could lawyer them by saying "when you released it you said we could use it" well respect for individual members is first. I just wont have a person who is donating nothing saying we should not do the project.

I love the idea of including the super basic meshes with our updated keyframes. They are also good vehicles for some of our personal creations, like the male basic with martial artist keyframes could have one of our kung fu characters.

This thing is going to be MILES way from being a one stop pack or even a Best Of, but hopefully it will make a great first step or main install for people who do this game casually instead of as a regular hobby. I could see it benefiting people who re-install the game after not playing for 4 years so they dont have to download and merge 5 or 10 mods just to have "the perfect" base game. You know, in case the people with thousands of posts on the forum who think it is too much work to keep playing the game want to jump back in.