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DC Comics Reboot

Started by B A D, August 10, 2011, 04:50:53 PM

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GhostMachine

If I remember right, it wasn't a robot suit. It was his head on a robot body. And yes, I'd like to forget about that.

The thing is, there are two different versions of the Shadow. The radio version wasn't violent at all, and didn't wear a costume. He didn't need one, because he was always just an invisible voice. And if a bad guy died it usually was their own fault.

The pulp version is the one that the comics (and Alec Baldwin movie) versions are based on, and he's always used guns. But he didn't always kill the bad guys.

But my main gripe is that the comics (and movie) usually have the Shadow actually being Lamont Cranston, which was only true of the radio version. In the pulps, the Shadow was someone else completely different (Kent Allard), who just happened to look like Cranston. The real Cranston let him borrow his identity when he was out of town.

The Shadow doesn't work at all in a modern setting. I'm not sure that Doc Savage would, either. Surprisingly, there have been a few modern era Green Hornet comics (featuring the original's descendants), and most of those actually worked. (I loved the NOW Comics series.)

HarryTrotter

IIRC this version wasnt Cranston.Actually,Cranston turns out to the villain killing Shadows agents.He survived and rebuilt his empire under a different name while Shadow adopted his name and life because they looked the same.Spoiler for a 30 year old comic,I know.
Btw after Chaykin,Helfer took over and things go into self parody mode.Black comedy,almost slapstick mode.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

I'd comment on this but I'd get angry and abusive. Not towards you, but to the people who butchered DC's Shadow comic.

BentonGrey

The Shadow, like Doc Savage, The Green Hornet, and similar characters, belongs in his original era.  When you move them out of that setting, you lose a lot of what makes them work.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

daglob

GhostMachine was right about The Green Hornet, though. The Now Comics were quite good, giving us adventures of three generations of Green Hornet (more, if you count the one in the future), with each adapting their MO to suit the time. The mistakes DC seems to make with updating The Shadow and Doc Savage, as well as The Avenger, usually involve ignoring a lot of what makes the character work and creating what is substantially a new character with the same name and a few of the trappings to fit what the writer wants to write about. It occurs to me that they did the same thing with THUNDER Agents.

However, DC did two Shadow series that were set in the pulp era, and I enjoyed them both.

BentonGrey

Right DG, but the generational approach is a whole other animal.  That can totally work.  I haven't really read the generational GH series, but from what I've seen, I imagine they would tend to be pretty good.  Of course, the Hornet lends himself to that type of approach much better than, say the Shadow.  You could probably work something out with Doc Savage, or at least a descendant of Pat's.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

GhostMachine

Dynamic has done a pretty good job with the Shadow. They've also done a fairly decent job with the Green Hornet, and since they got the rights to use both the Green Hornet and the Lone Ranger, they were able to use their connection. Though I didn't care for the crossover mini-series because of how the elderly Lone Ranger was portrayed.

HarryTrotter

Another good example is DCs Spirit.It did a good job with the Spirit in the modern setting.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

kkhohoho

#1358
So after sitting on it for the longest time, I decided to start reading Justice League Detroit, and GOD is it bad. Just to be clear, this series is far from the worst thing I've ever read, and if read in a vacuum, it might not even have been that bad. But as a direct successor to the Classic League, it is a completely different kettle of fish. Everything about it is just ill planned, ill executed, and ill advised. Even the reason as to why there's a new League doesn't make a lick of sense. "A massive threat could strike the Earth at any time, so all members of the League need to be on fulltime status all the time! Even when we have more than enough active members that not everyone needs to be on fulltime status all the time!" Nevermind that, as we learn later, there was a very good reason why the more powerful members of the League like Superman and Wonderwoman weren't there to help during the Mars invasion, so in hindsight, that doesn't really hold water. Nevermind that it's coming from Aquaman of all people. They try to have his sudden sense of commitment and duty to the League make sense by focusing on the rift between him and Mera, but it just doesn't seem like it's enough.

The rest of the issue (Justice League Annual #2 for the curious,) doesn't fare much better. "So, all of these new Superpowered young whippersnappers just showed up out of the blue and one of them even offered us a new fancy base without bothering to explain how or why. Eh, we're easy." It's just... none of this makes sense. None of it. Not even Zatanna and Vixin falling for the mechanic at first sight, who's a sweaty middle-aged dude who's not in any real way attractive or interesting. And speaking of Vixen, I know it's only the first issue, but she's really just kind of there. Even Steel and Vibe have something to them. Actually, scratch that. Vibe doesn't have something to him because he's not even a real character; he's a walking talking mass of attitude and catch-phrases, that's what he is.

The whole thing feels like an attempt to cash in on the Titans and other similar books at the time, with more of a focus on Character Development and a Younger and Hipper crew, but at least so far, it just doesn't work. The only good thing that came from this is that it left the door open for JLI later down the road, which is everything Detroit wishes it was. Other than that, I don't know, maybe It Gets Better, but at least for now, it might as well be dead in the water.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Panther_Gunn

Quote from: kkhohoho on September 09, 2017, 06:21:48 PMmaybe It Gets Better

I read this monthly when it was an active title.  And no, no it doesn't.   :thumbdown:
The Best There Is At What I Do......when I have the time.

BentonGrey

Haha, I've read very little of it, but this sounds about right.  I enjoyed your righteous indignation at how terrible this series is, Kk.  :lol:
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

kkhohoho

Quote from: BentonGrey on September 09, 2017, 09:22:48 PM
Haha, I've read very little of it, but this sounds about right.  I enjoyed your righteous indignation at how terrible this series is, Kk.  :lol:

Thanks. :) Oh, and I didn't bother to post it before, but I think this particular video's appropriate. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmLAj9iIfQk
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

HarryTrotter

Dale Gunn,dude who looks like Uncle Phil,yet has two hot superheroines fighting over him.Like,how?  :lol:
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

And Mr OZ is actually
Spoiler
Jor-El
Did anyone saw that coming?  :unsure:
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#1364
Yeah, actually, I totally saw that coming. There were lots of hints in the issues of Action I'd read (and apparently at least one big one from an earlier run I had only just recently found out about) and the interviews and solicits tipped their hand big time.

Spoiler
Between the story itself, and said solicits and interviews, it was clear Mr. Oz's identity would "shake Superman to the core" which made it think it would be someone he knows, someone who means something, as opposed to Ozymandias, someone he's never heard of (Peter Canon: Thunderbolt not withstanding)  :P. Not only that, but some of his appearances seem to indicate that Oz had a knowledge of and investment in Supe's family and backstory as the last son of Krypton.

CBR also ran a story right before the issue came out where they'd figured it out too, which included a look at the earlier run I'd mentioned above. So I was definitely not the only one. 

So yeah, I knew exactly what to expect when this issue came out. Now I'm looking forward to learning the whys and hows.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

I don't follow CBR,so there is that...I hang around the forum sometimes,but that's another story.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

So Aqualad likes Lilith now.Wasnt he gay?
Just asking,nobody go ballistic.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

Quote from: HarryTrotter on September 16, 2017, 01:25:58 PM
So Aqualad likes Lilith now.Wasnt he gay?
Just asking,nobody go ballistic.

That was last week... now, next week...

Spoiler
I wonder... Is this whole Jor-El thing a return to the period when everyone seemed to hate their fathers? Or perhaps Dan Jurgens is going to take the "evil father" thing and do a entertaining, even enlightening version. Once upon a time, the whole "mutant menace" thing had been done to death. Twice. Maybe three times. Then Chris Claremont came along and did it again, and did it very well. Afterwards it was done to death again, multiple times. And which Superman's father is he, anyway; pre-
or post-52?

Panther_Gunn

Quote from: daglob on September 16, 2017, 02:48:30 PM
Spoiler
And which Superman's father is he, anyway; pre- or post-52?

Spoiler
Or pre- or post-Crisis?  Or the Kingdom Come timeline?  Or .... (ad infinitum)
The Best There Is At What I Do......when I have the time.

HarryTrotter

Maybe hes from a different universe?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Deaths Jester

...what, like Image Comics Jor-El?!?
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

HarryTrotter

More like different DC Earth.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

But DJ may have something there...

GhostMachine

Regarding the Mr. Oz thing...

Spoiler
There's an obscure, pre-Crisis character named Roz-M who had plastic surgery to look like Jor-El. Mr. Oz may very well be a new version of that character. The name is the giveaway.

(I can't take credit for this. Someone at another board I'm a member of pointed it out.)


Panther_Gunn

Quote from: GhostMachine on September 17, 2017, 03:29:31 AM
Regarding the Mr. Oz thing...

Spoiler
There's an obscure, pre-Crisis character named Roz-M who had plastic surgery to look like Jor-El. Mr. Oz may very well be a new version of that character. The name is the giveaway.

(I can't take credit for this. Someone at another board I'm a member of pointed it out.)

More accurately,
Spoiler
Roz-Em had his face changed to look like Nim-El, Jor-El's brother, who was in charge of a/the forbidden weapons armory.  With only two appearances ever, 1963 & 1970, and only a brief mention in the 1982 Phantom Zone mini series, it's a pretty obscure character (I don't think even I'd heard of him yet). 
The Best There Is At What I Do......when I have the time.

Silver Shocker

Sounds good, you guys may be on the ball.

In other news, but not really cuz it's totally related.

So DC December solicits just came out and ohmigosh ohmigosh, Guess who's showing up in Action Comics for at least 2 issues to literally sort out this whole business? BOOSTER GOLD!! He protects the past to ensure your future!!

So, to whoever reads this post, if you've got a time machine, can you just go ahead and lemme have the new issues of Action early, cuz that'd just be swell kthanxbye.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

kkhohoho

#1376
So. More Justice League Detroit. And the series just keeps on piling on the stupid.

Anyhoo, Superman, Wonderwoman, and Flash finally come back from their extended leave of absence on Earth 2 where, as it turns out, they were busy saving the freaking universe from annihilation. And yet, despite this completely valid and understandable explanation for their absence, they actually approve of Aquaman disbanding the League without their input. But I don't have to tell you why they went along with it. Here's how Aquaman explained it to them:

AQUAMAN: There was a time when the League stood as a symbol. 'The World's Greatest Heroes', the press called us, gathered to stand in common cause against injustice. Do you remember how it was then? The seven of us... the original League... We faced each threat as a team, together, and the League was our highest priority. In those early days, none of us missed a crisis. We depended on each other, and we were always there. As time passed, the League grew... adding more and more members to our role call— and yes, losing members as well. J'onn J'onz was the first to resign; Batman the last. And somewhere along the way, that original sense of purpose and commitment was lost as well. For some of us, the League was no longer our first priority... sometimes, not even our second. What happened during the Earth-Mars war was only the most recent, most obvious example of a continuing trend. Isn't it obvious? The League was already dead, at least in the original sense. I just signed the death certificate.

Where do I even begin? First off, the League was never your first priority. Not for any of you, especially not you, Aquadick. The League was important, yes, but you also had your own cities and kingdoms to guard, and I'm pretty darn sure those were your first priorities. Second, you were not always there. Even in the Silver Age, you still had the odd Leaguer missing out on a story here and there, with J'onn being the most noticeable guilty party. Now, maybe it's true that more and more members started showing up less frequently, but that was only because there were more than enough members that they didn't need to show up so often, nevermind that the few who actually left like J'onn had damn good reason to.. Not to mention, but the more members you have, the less of them need to be present at a given time, 'commitment' be damned.

And speaking of commitment, Aquaman's the last person to be talking about it, seeing as he only showed up every other month or so later on if that, nevermind having his own kingdom to run. This whole tirade about 'commitment' and 'duty' is a load of hogwash to try and justify the flimsy premise the book has, a premise so flimsy that when Supes and Wondy and the Flash go along with it, you just can't buy that they do. There was no good reason for the old League to disband, and Conway knows it. He just wanted to promote his Not!Titans and his own little special snowflakes. But that's just not what the League is.

Also, in the same issue, Vixen disobeys Aquaman's orders to stay put and instead goes off and does her own thing, (herself showing some rather questionable 'commitment',)  and so what does Aquaman do? GIVE HER A SEIZURE.  Aquadick: Our hero everybody! :banghead:
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

HarryTrotter

#1377
If only we could have someone to keep watch and alert the others in a case of emergency.Some sort of monitor duty,if you will.But nah,that would be stupid.

So I reread Chaykins Shadow,and its actually surprising okay to good.Most of the previous complaint...actually happened in Helfers series.Uncanny,but its a very DKR like comic.I say uncanny because Chaykin says he only read DKR much later.I guess its a pretty simple idea of an old superhero returning to action.So its possible he and Miller both had the same idea.And they probably werent first.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

Chaykin's original miniseries was interesting; I enjoyed it at the time, but I took it as a variant, maybe an Earth 1 version of The Shadow. It was all downhill from there.

kkhohoho

#1379
Okay, I'm sorry but... I can't take it anymore. For all intents and purposes, I am done with Justice League Detroit. Mind you, it's not just because it's bad. If it were just plain bad, eh, whatever, it's a bad comic. If it were So Bad, It's Good, at least it would be entertaining. And if it were So Bad, It's Horrible, it'd at least be as fascinating as all hell. This is none of those things. This isn't just bad; this is boringly bad. Even when it isn't terrible, it is still so mind-numbingly banal and boring that you're wondering if you haven't lost a brain cell already just reading it. And it's that same banality that would still make it a slog even if it were its' own comic separate from the League. Nevermind the sometimes questionable dialogue ('Heats my pot?' Seriously?) and storytelling. (Aquaman gives Vixen a seizure and... she's cool with it. And so is MM apparently.)] There are no repercussions for this whatsoever as far as I can see, even though there should have been. He should have been kicked out of the League for that alone. )

To sum up, I cannot possibly get through this sober, and I am not about to compromise my sobriety for the sake of a bad comic. So... I'm done.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203