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DC Comics Reboot

Started by B A D, August 10, 2011, 04:50:53 PM

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John Jr.

I'm the same wagon as most of you guys, I'm not a fan of the reboot as an option to get the new readers, specially when we had so many of them lately...I'm really liking Action Comics, but I'm ignoring most of the DC line now.
Anyway, this one may make our buddy Benton very happy...
http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album_view.php?gid=3895&page=35

Nyte Dragon

Quote from: UnkoMan on December 12, 2011, 12:03:32 AM
Reboots are almost always ridiculous. People try too hard. I mean look at these new costumes. Mostly garbage. Lois and Clark not being married? Why not? We know they are a couple. That's ingrained on the culture.

It won't stay that way if everytime that they get close the whole universe gets a reboot.

Quote from: Randomdays on December 12, 2011, 06:20:24 AM
The Lois and Clark situation reminds of the same thing with Pete and Mary Jane a few years back with "One More Day". Joe didn't like the marriage, Joe was in charge, Joe gets his way.

Sorry, old rant coming back again.

That was my point exactly. Not just Lois and Clark, but also Pete and MJ, or Elongated Man and Sue. I just don't understand why it should be so difficult to show a superhero in a long-term marriage/romance. Joey Q said he wanted the drama of Pete being single and dating lots of various women. So he wants him to be Spider-Ho then?  :huh:

And what's worse with DC, is if they wanted to do a Jim Lee-verse, they have a whole frigging multiverse they just brought back they could have done it in, and left the current universe alone. And PSSSSTTTTT DC, Marvel tried this stunt a few years ago with a lil event called 'Heroes Reborn'. I guess what they say is true, those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Hate is always foolish and love is always wise.
 ⁓Doctor Who

Previsionary

#182
Quote from: Night Dragon on December 21, 2011, 07:58:31 AM
Quote from: Randomdays on December 12, 2011, 06:20:24 AM
The Lois and Clark situation reminds of the same thing with Pete and Mary Jane a few years back with "One More Day". Joe didn't like the marriage, Joe was in charge, Joe gets his way.

Sorry, old rant coming back again.

That was my point exactly. Not just Lois and Clark, but also Pete and MJ, or Elongated Man and Sue. I just don't understand why it should be so difficult to show a superhero in a long-term marriage/romance. Joey Q said he wanted the drama of Pete being single and dating lots of various women. So he wants him to be Spider-Ho then?  :huh:

It wasn't just Joe Q that wanted this, though he took the brunt. Many creators came out and supported him on the MJ/Pete situation and cited how people were against the marriage in the first place. Regardless, Peter wasn't even a spider-ho because he wasn't single that long. He had his eye on a science geek almost immediately, chased after her, and eventually began dating her. I mean, yeah, that Black Cat retread happened, and he was being sought after by Lily/Menace for evil purposes, but Peter essentially went from one very solid relationship into another relationship with the drama of "keeping secrets." Another retread.

I was against this DC reboot from the beginning because I thought it was stupid. If anything, both DC and Marvel could learn a lesson form the past and improve their writing/art, simplify their stories, and stop relying on decompression so much and actually, you know, INVEST in some of their status quos before resetting everything once again with an event, mini-reboot, or w/e it is DC has now because it's not a true reboot... but more of a mix between a relaunch and a reset, as some old continuity is still floating about. I'm also not sure why comic companies think relaunching or starting over will get new readers. No. You'll get short-term, new readers who'll most likely abandon the project almost immediately while your long term fans get burned yet again. If you want new readers, then you not only need to have something easily accessible to them, but you need to seek them out with quality and not gimmicks. It also helps to advertise to them and not just to the people who are ALREADY your fans. But the thing that'd help the most is if companies would stop taking advantage of the fans they do have, treasure them a little more, and give them something to talk about positively every once in a while. I'd definitely be more inclined to check out books and such from a company that treats their fans as a vital part of the system as opposed to the way certain companies (more so creators and editors) do so now. That's just me.
Disappear when you least expe--

John Jr.

Quote from: Previsionary on December 21, 2011, 02:07:25 PM
I was against this DC reboot from the beginning because I thought it was stupid. If anything, both DC and Marvel could learn a lesson form the past and improve their writing/art, simplify their stories, and stop relying on decompression so much and actually, you know, INVEST in some of their status quos before resetting everything once again with an event, mini-reboot, or w/e it is DC has now because it's not a true reboot... but more of a mix between a relaunch and a reset, as some old continuity is still floating about. I'm also not sure why comic companies think relaunching or starting over will get new readers. No. You'll get short-term, new readers who'll most likely abandon the project almost immediately while your long term fans get burned yet again. If you want new readers, then you not only need to have something easily accessible to them, but you need to seek them out with quality and not gimmicks. It also helps to advertise to them and not just to the people who are ALREADY your fans. But the thing that'd help the most is if companies would stop taking advantage of the fans they do have, treasure them a little more, and give them something to talk about positively every once in a while. I'd definitely be more inclined to check out books and such from a company that treats their fans as a vital part of the system as opposed to the way certain companies (more so creators and editors) do so now. That's just me.

Nope. Isn't just you, I have exactly the same opinion and I made a very similar post months ago at TOF. But DC writers and editors are always giving speeches about how the readers "don't own the characters" or how they don't "get it" (just read Scott Lobdell's recent interview about the Starfire fiasco).

detourne_me

still don't understand all of the negativity surrounding the new 52.
there are still 60+ years of comics stories for you to read.
the beauty of these characters is that they aren't real and continuity doesn't really matter.
there are enough stories now that readers can develop their own continuity in their heads, and there are enough stories to further populate those continuities.
Sure they aren't making Lois and Clark married stories now, but that doesn't mean they never will again. I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before some creators will make a miniseries or side project where they are married. and if not in the comic medium, then maybe in movies, tv or video games. 
I think this is the key to why the ultimate universe is so great in marvel, it offers an alternative continuity with different possibilities.
and really,  the current spidey series has some of the best storytelling i've ever read.  re-reading slott's work on Spidey lately.... dang, just makes me realize how much i love comics (just try not to cry while reading the issues where Spidey joins the FF, or when Peter Parker helps reform The Magnetic Man issue 662 i think.)


John Jr.

DM,
Some people are upset because their favorite characters were retconned away, changed beyond recognition (Superboy/Conner)or just disappeared (Wally West). Others, like myself are tired of the same old "Everything old is new" trick. The only DCNU title I'm still reading is Action Comics, because it's a really different take on Superman. I tried to follow JLA, Titans, Superboy and some others, but most of them are too much form and too little substance IMHO. But, like you said we have the older comics and continuities, I'll just join other former readers and forget about new comics (except 1 or 2, like Action and Captain America  & Bucky).

Previsionary

I don't think it's hard to understand why some people might have an issue with the new universe. I mean, it's not a complex issue. It's pretty simple. Some characters didn't fair well in the change. Some creators couldn't work magic with characters that were already fine and loved. Some books didn't need to be relaunched or rebooted or whatever. DC effectively cut ties with some of their reader base to try an experiment that a good chunk of their fans might not actually gel with. What's really hard to understand about that? You may not see it similarly, but that's a legitimate stance to have.

And while those fans may have the old books to thumb through, maybe they want to also get new stories as well to share with the newer fans without having to feel like their character was sacrificed because of it. I've never been behind extreme actions just to get a larger following for a few months. There's better ways to achieve that. It just requires a breath of fresh air in the Marvel/DC board rooms and less reliance on the old tricks these companies have grown accustomed to.
Disappear when you least expe--

BlueBard

I guess the question is...

Do comic book reboots actually work (ie increase profits)?  If so, why?  Because if they actually work, then maybe they aren't the incredibly stupid thing that some fans perceive them to be.  And it would explain why they keep doing them.

Since I don't have access to the numbers or any demographic studies, I'll have to speculate.

The key factor is disposable income.  A contributing factor is that males are more likely to want to spend disposable income on "superhero" comics.  I won't go into that, and it's not entirely relevant.

Speaking as a family man, I can say with great confidence that disposable income for my demographic is probably not all that high.  So I assume that "married with children" is not the target demographic.  As such, the industry really doesn't give a hoot about how I feel about the characters and storylines.  Heck, negative buzz from me might even generate positive buzz for the real target demographic.

Take children out of the equation, and there is more likely to be a surplus of disposable income.  This has the side effect of making it easier to target an adult audience with adult themes.  But, there is still the spouse or significant other factor to consider.  If there is a shared household and a shared income, there exists a strong possibility that the partner has some say in how the disposable income is spent.  Which makes it less likely that such income is going to comics.

Let's skip over a couple of demographic groups and go right to children.  Children under the age of 12 have no income to speak of, may not even have an allowance.  Which is why "kiddie-safe" versions of superheroes are marketed toward this group.  I may not be able to spend disposable income on my own comic book habit, but these kid-safe, parent-acceptable superheroes play off a sense of nostalgia that I'd like to share with my own kids.  Thus the toys, movies, and kid cartoons are more likely to reflect the "classic" heroes instead of the "adult-oriented" messed-up ones we have now.

Backing up a bit, we come to the real key demographic.

Single individuals who have and do not need to share their disposable income.  Parent-subsidized teenagers and college-age adults who may even have a small amount of independent income.  This is the pool of future readers, readers, and future nostalgic parents who are going to drive sales.  Think about that and what the comic book industry is doing to target that audience and a lot of things start to make more sense.
STO/CO: @bluegeek

tommyboy

I wanted to weigh in on this.
Some of the New52 books are really good.
Manapaul's Flash, William's Batwoman, Morrison's Action are great titles.
There are plenty of good titles too. Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Men of War, the various Batman books, Wonder Woman etc etc.
Did they need to "reboot" to put out comics of that quality?
No, of course not.
They had about as many good or great books before.
But the reboot did make me try stuff I otherwise would not have tried.
The promise of a clear jumping on point (even if this was actually a little misleading) led me to try stuff, and find I liked it.
It's true I lost some titles, characters, writers, and continuity I liked but overall I'm enjoying more DC product than before, and that is good for me and them and for the industry.

The sales figures show that four months in, DC are dominating the top 10 in the sales charts.
Books like Nightwing and Aquaman and Batgirl now outsell Bendis' New Avengers and Avengers titles.
DC have to be pleased at that.
Will those sorts of sales last?
Perhaps not forever, but if they make for a good year in a down-trending industry then it makes business sense to do it.

To address some specific complaints:
Lois and Clark not married. The reboot seems to have de-aged everyone so they are at an earlier phase of the relationship. The door to them marrying in the future is open, if writers want to go there. I'd like to see some married heroes but can wait a few years for Mr. and Mrs. Kent if need be.

Starfire. Not a massive character who they have tried to push in the traditional version (remember she got a lot of page time in 52 and other books), without much reader interest. So they have changed her a bit (or a lot if you are outraged) to try to make people notice her, and people have. For the first time in a generation people other than a small but loyal fanbase care about Starfire. And the new stuff can be dropped incredibly easily in various ways that dont "taint" the character. Do I like the new Starfire? I'm marginally less indifferent to her than the old one.

Driving away old fans. They have a classic JLA, Aquaman, Flash, GL, GA all have books. Seems to me they are catering pretty well to long term fans. The Wally/Kyle/New Atom crowd are getting short shrift right now, and I sympathize with those fans a little. Kyle is already back in a book, I'd be very surprised if we never saw any of the others back.

And ultimately the fact is this, DC were being beaten by Marvel in a shrinking industry in a time of recession.
Had they kept on with the same old same old at some point they would go under.
They had to try something new, and drastic to gain market share.
They did, and it worked, much as it worked for Marvel with the "Ultimate" line.
You can argue for "good stories and art" all you want, and I agree that should be a goal.
But quality does not guarantee sales. Simone's Bird's of Prey or Gage's Avengers Academy never cracked the top 10 despite their excellence.
But after the New52 here's a list of DC books whose 3rd issue out sold Marvel's Flagship New Avengers title: Red Lanterns, Nightwing, Green Lantern Corps, Green Lantern New Guardians, Teen Titans, Batwoman, Aquaman, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Batman and Robin, Superman, Batman the Dark Knight.
And those are the books leading up to the top 10. Six of the top 10 are DC books. The four top selling books are DC books.

For me, they are putting out books I like to read, and kicking bottom sales-wise.
I'd say it's working and that they were right to do it.

Previsionary

Anyway.......

Is this the new DC comics thread or should I go bump the old one? Looks like that logo that was leaked a few days ago will officially be the new DC logo moving forward! How do you guys feel about it? Still no word on if it'll be the comic logo as well.



http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/01/19/dc-entertainments-new-interactive-logo-officially-unveiled/
Disappear when you least expe--

BlueBard

I think an "interactive" logo is fine... for a website or an application or so-called "rich media".

Not so much for an entire brand.  And if they embed those in every single digital format they have, it's going to get annoying really quick unless you can ignore them entirely.

Worse, those logo designs are pretty awful looking.  Aside from the in-your-face green logo, they don't really suggest to me what they ought to represent. 

The "steel" logo just doesn't say "Superman" to me.
I don't know what that black "wrapped" label is supposed to be.
That one that's supposed to be sparky just looks more like it has hair on it.
Is that one on the lower left supposed to be for the Watchmen?  I couldn't place it right away.
The "misty" logo could be for Batman... or for a supernatural-based comic.  Who knows?
STO/CO: @bluegeek

Podmark

When it was first seen, the basic grey version, I didn't like it. It seemed a little bland and modern for DC. But the final versions with the custom colours per book and interactive elements are kinda neat.
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Courtnall6

Without the "DC Comics" written underneath...I never would have guessed it was DC's new logo. I guess the guy who designed it never attended Advertising 101.
Clothes make the man and colourful tights make the Super-Hero.

BlueBard

Quote from: Courtnall6 on January 20, 2012, 03:20:08 AM
Without the "DC Comics" written underneath...I never would have guessed it was DC's new logo. I guess the guy who designed it never attended Advertising 101.

Actually, I think this is a very powerful marketing tool...

...for Marvel.
STO/CO: @bluegeek

murs47

I'm a little behind the curve on comic news but looks like the first mini-vent for DC's new 52 is coming soon:

Batman: Night of the Owls

Since it's contained in a few Batman titles only I'm not disappointed. In fact, I'm excited. Mostly because it looks like this entire mini-vent will be directed by Scott Snyder. This entire Court of Owls story has been nothing short of amazing and I'm glad it's expanding.

bat1987

#195
Ya looking forward to it. Whats actually cool, according to Snyder, we'l actually get the main story in Batman, rest of the tittles are just tie-ins, not crucial to understand the story. But i still think all of them will be worth getting. :)

detourne_me


Previsionary

Quote from: detourne_me on February 01, 2012, 01:08:42 PM
http://io9.com/5881187/dc-comics-unveils-full-list-of-watchmen-prequel-comics?popular=true

Watchmen Prequels.......  I love azarello and darwyn cooke... maybe these can work

The "nerd" rage from when these were a rumor is about to be topped. I've already seen signs of it.
Disappear when you least expe--

Figure Fan

Quote from: Previsionary on February 01, 2012, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: detourne_me on February 01, 2012, 01:08:42 PM
http://io9.com/5881187/dc-comics-unveils-full-list-of-watchmen-prequel-comics?popular=true

Watchmen Prequels.......  I love azarello and darwyn cooke... maybe these can work

The "nerd" rage from when these were a rumor is about to be topped. I've already seen signs of it.

I'm not upset (or surprised) with their decision to revisit Watchmen in some way. I mean, the book has been incredibly popular for decades.

If creating prequels weren't so unnecessary I would probably be more upset by it. The original series explained the characters' pasts well enough, and the years in-between were made interesting by the back and forth storytelling that shifted between 'what is' and 'what was'. It allowed the reader to construct his or her own timeline and imagery.

In the end, they just couldn't resist the urge to cash in, and it shows, despite the talented people involved.

Previsionary

Before Watchmen's Straczynski addresses Babylon 5 comparisons

Mark Waid also weighs in to correct JMS's assertion of the Alan Moore vs. DC debacle.
Disappear when you least expe--

BentonGrey

Well, I've been putting off posting here until I had something fairly substantive to say, and I suppose that time has come.  DC actually managed to pull me back in, however temporarily or however limited the manner.  I've, of course, been reading the new Aquaman, but I've also been following the progress of this reboot with some interest in general.  I've been lurking in this thread, watching the news online, and listening to friends who are reading some of these new books.  I've heard very impressive things from a good friend of mine, long a Marvel fan, who has decided that this is a great time to check out DC.  His interest, much to my amusement, was sparked by my introducing him to JLU a few months back.  Anyway, after his repeated enthusiastic recommendations, I've actually picked up a second DC book, The Flash.  This is pretty unprecedented.  It's been years and years since I read a DC book, and even longer since I read more than one.  So, DC has managed to snare someone like me, who had not just given up on their books, but actively boycotted them for years, into reading parts of their new line.  Based on my friend's recommendations and the glowing responses here I'm even recently picked up the JLA book.  That by itself speaks volumes in my mind. 

So, by the rubric Tommy is using there, and by the same measure many folks are applying, this DC reboot/relaunch, whatever-you-call-it, is a success.  They're generating sales, they're beating out Marvel, they're bringing back old fans, perhaps even attracting some new ones...and yet, I have to say, as much as I may be enjoying a few books, I still don't really think of this as a success.  You see, the problems I had with this project still exist, but I've decided to support a few good books that have been spawned by it anyway.  I'll tell y'all what I think of the books I'm reading in a bit, for anyone interested.  It seems to me that in terms of this grand project though, their current success is, at best, a fevered strength.  It won't last.  You can't keep fighting over the same shrinking demographic.  The folks they're aiming at, and in this I think that BB is probably pretty close to the mark, simply can't support the comic industry by themselves, and they are, largely, still coming out of a culture that regards comics as being 'for kids.'  In the end, this is still a dying industry and a dying market.  DC may very well manage to grab a nice big chunk of this market for a while, but all this gambit does is prolong the inevitable. 

This is part of my old argument, so I'm sure y'all know where I'm heading, but without a more comprehensive strategy DC can't bring in REALLY new readers.  Without them, the industry can't reverse the downward trend, and without that, there isn't a whole lot of future here.  I see a lot of folks saying more or less the same thing, but praising their efforts as good because it seems like all that can be done.  This event had such potential, and while it's produced much better results than I had hoped, there is still a great deal of that potential being wasted because they're appealing to folks in this very small demographic.  This was the chance to create an accessible universe with a planned trajectory and a smart marketing strategy, encouraging young people to read their books as well as bringing back older fans.  However, you're right, kids aren't too high on DC's radar, and folks like me who prefer clean-ish books and worlds aren't really what they're after either, but this approach isn't going to produce lasting success, not in the long run.  That makes me very sad, because I was hoping against hope that when I have kids they'd be able to grow up immersed in a really great comic universe, just like I did.  I don't really see that happening, on the one hand because I wouldn't let any kids of mine read most of these books, even a few of those I'm enjoying, and on the other because I have no confidence that there will be much of a universe left for them to read about.

So, there you have it.  Take my thoughts for what they're worth.  I'll post about the specific books I'm reading later on.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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Midnite

Powergirl, don't like the costume design.  :thumbdown:




Previsionary

Soooooo... Supergirl has no legs?
Disappear when you least expe--

ow_tiobe_sb

Quote from: Previsionary on February 10, 2012, 08:14:33 PM
Soooooo... Supergirl has no legs?

She won't need them.  She's replacing Barbara Gordon as the new Oracle.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Whirled Braker
Two words: Moog.

Podmark

I don't mind the body suit but the forearms and shins seem too elaborate.

Also is that a Robin there in the back?
Get my skins at:
HeroForce
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Previsionary

#205
So, all this talk about new readers/DC's model has been vaguely interesting. Here's a report on how well DC is allegedly doing as far as new readers are concerned.

QuoteThe results of The Nielsen Company's market research for DC Comics that surveyed "New 52" readers were released at ComicsPro's Dallas meeting yesterday and well... there's not much that's brave or bold about them. ICv2 reports that 70 percent of the survey's 5,336 respondents were already fans, with only 5 percent completely new to buying comics, and 93% were male. What's more, only an estimated 2 percent were younger than 18 years old. The results are troubling, and raise serious questions about DC's ability to expand their audience base, and the accessibility of their content to both women and younger readers.

The numbers seem particularly stark in the context of the stated goal of the new 52 to create a "more modern, diverse DC Universe" that would both reach beyond its existing fanbase. As Dan DiDio told USA Today when the initiative was announced, "If we can convince the people here we're doing something brand-new and fresh, we have a good chance to really get the people outside on board." If these results are any indication, the New 52 may have resonated with the existing audience -- or at least produced higher sales -- but had more trouble convincing the "people outside" of their new vision.

And here's the thing about statistics, they're only as accurate as their sample size, so I wouldn't take the majority of this very seriously myself. it is interesting to look at, and it echoes many of the responses I've seen here and elsewhere over the years.
Disappear when you least expe--

BentonGrey

It's a burden always being right, but I try to soldier on....
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Midnite


The Hitman

Oh, I bet you anything that the Earth- 2 folks you're seeing there are Dick Grayson,  Connor Kent,  and Donna Troy. They look too young to have served with the JSA during WWII, let alone too young to have kids. And the reason there is a Supergirl and lady Robin behind PG and Huntress is that they are supposed to be denizens of E- 2 trapped on the main Earth,  and those are their E- 2 costumes.

BentonGrey

Quote from: The Hitman on February 11, 2012, 12:18:32 PM
Oh, I bet you anything that the Earth- 2 folks you're seeing there are Dick Grayson,  Connor Kent,  and Donna Troy. They look too young to have served with the JSA during WWII, let alone too young to have kids. And the reason there is a Supergirl and lady Robin behind PG and Huntress is that they are supposed to be denizens of E- 2 trapped on the main Earth,  and those are their E- 2 costumes.

That would actually give me a vague interest in Earth-2.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/