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DC Comics Reboot

Started by B A D, August 10, 2011, 04:50:53 PM

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Cyber Burn

Quote from: Amazo Version 2.2 on June 03, 2013, 04:48:43 PM
i remeber all of the old gimmick covers from back in the day, they just seemed like wallet breakers to me. i would rather see a good story that holds my attention than to see a gimmick cover that  is going to add to my expenses.

I have to admit, I am totally guilty of buying the variant and gimmick covers. I thought it was the coolest thing back then, not so much now. :thumbdown:

Tomato

Benton, I've given what you've said quite a bit of thought... I'll put my response in spoilers because I don't know how lengthy it's going to get.

Spoiler

I think there's a very fine line that exists when it comes to superheroes being escapist fiction... on the one hand, stories with heroes who are constantly getting broken down all the time and/or constantly turn evil grates on my last nerve, but stories which have zero conflict and just exist have the bad guy of the week fight the hero are boring and I have no interest in them. For example, I've gotten very tired of Spiderman books because they seem to be just this endless torture of Peter Parker... no matter how much the dude overcomes the odds and still manages to be heroic, writers constantly find new ways to kick him in the business. By contrast, many of the early silver age stories (especially at DC) were so much about finding bizarre new villains for the hero to fight that I had no emotional attachment to the hero in question... they didn't have any problems for me to relate to.

I think what it boils down to is that at the end of the day, I want the character to have pathos, but not wallow in them. I want a character to worry about mundane stuff like having a relationship, paying bills, catching a cold, enduring cheesy chick flicks, etc. because it gives me something I can identify with because I deal with those things in my daily life. I also don't mind characters having flaws... a character who has issues controlling his temper is all the more heroic to me for being able to keep that in check.

That said, they should never be bogged down by it, and should eventually grow as a character. Again, Spiderman is a prime example of this. I don't mind the marriage thing upon reflection (going back to the original stories he didn't seem to have all that much chemistry with MJ, he just woke up one day and said he wanted to get married, and MJ was the only one in his life not running around in black leather. Not exactly the basis for a long lasting relationship.) but he still has the same job he had in college, and any progress he's made as a superhero (joining the avengers, etc.) has been eaten away by his recent possession.

What gets me about the whole marriage issue is that writers seem to want there to be this big checklist of things they want in order to have the "Perfect Superhero," for people to identify with and I think that's missing the point. Each character is unique, and having a wide range of marital situations (Roy Harper as a single dad, Aquaman married to the equally capable Mera, Batman as perpetually single) gives each character their own flavor. Every character being single and perpetually dating the person you know they're going to end up with is boring.

BentonGrey

#452
Thanks for the response, 'Mato, and I pretty much agree with everything you've said, though I wouldn't use modern iterations of the characters you cited as examples of the type of variety I'd like to see.  Both of them have portrayals that are more tawdry and/or tortured than I care for. 

Spoiler
That said, I don't want Silver Age stories, and I don't want perfect characters.  I do, like you said, want characters where the melodrama doesn't drown me or the characters themselves.  I don't read about characters that I like so that I can see them tortured unreasonably, nor is the world so bright and cheerful that I need some doses of vileness and ugliness to provide balance.  Quite the opposite is true, in fact.

I love stories that are really touching, and I love stories of heroes overcoming great challenges, including their frailties, but they should overcome them, not constantly fail to be decent people.  Green Arrow or Batman having trouble working with/trusting others is okay, if they learn to trust their friends and make peace, but if they are constantly irrationally abrasive and paranoid, they quickly become characters that I don't like and don't want to read about.  I expect my heroes to act heroic, and that means a lot more than simply punching bad guys.  I expect them to rise above pettiness, to be morally respectable, and to put others before themselves.  That doesn't mean that heroes can't make mistakes, fall occasionally, or struggle with making the right decisions, but as I said, I want that to be the exception, and not the rule.  The worlds of superhero comics that the big two have created are places of wonder and adventure.  They should be relatively bright settings, full of hope and idealism, even though they are beset by threats and problems.  I want to read about those worlds, not places as broken and troubled as our own world.

Like I said, I think we're mostly in agreement on the large scale, though we likely disagree on exactly where we'd draw the lines. 

So, all of that having been said, I have actually read some comics this week!  I got my big box 'o comics in the mail, and I've read four issues of Flash, Aquaman, and Justice League (17-20 of each).  I've cancelled Flash and JL already, but having preordered I'm getting the last books I've paid for.  Following are some thoughts on these books:

Flash: There are so many things I love about this book, and yet there are so many things that frustrated me and gave me pause.  Finally the negatives outweighed the positive, and these last four issues have just reconfirmed my decision to drop the book.  The art is fantastic, and I love the way they tell their stories.  If I wanted to point to a great visual storyteller in comics, Manapul is one of the first names I'd bring up.  However, the stories they are telling frustrate me with their combinations of the fantastic with the discouraging.  I like a lot of what they are doing with Barry and with some of the mysteries they are setting up, and I have enjoyed some of the portayals of the Rogues.  Yet, in the end I'd rather go back to the beginning and read the stories that they aren't bothering to tell me.  I'd like to see the first meeting of Flash and Captain Cold, the first meeting of our hero and Mirror Master.  I'd like to learn what first motivated Heat Wave to turn to crime, and so on.  That's a problem with the New 52 in general.  They are starting in media res, which is a good tactic for storytelling, but a lousy tactic for reinventing the stories you want to tell.  I often feel like I've tuned in too late and I've missed something important or interesting.  What's more, they've made choices with characters that I've really, really disliked.  Their version of Grodd is extremely boring and flat compared to the wonderful absurdity of an urbane gorilla who was racist against humans in an off-handed way, believing entirely in the superiority of gorillas with a certainty that was charming as well as ridiculous.  The violent monster portrayed here is just not really that interesting.  There are other issues that have left a bad taste in my mouth, but in the end the book just wasn't worth my money.

Justice League:  The Atlantis arc was interesting, but like the entire run which has been marked by interesting plot ideas, the execution left a good deal to be desired.  I've noticed a trend with Johns' writing.  I always feel like I'm missing two or three pages when I read one of his comics.  He's got the opposite problem of a lot of comics these days, spending too little time on his arcs rather than too much.  We're supposed to be living in an age of superior characterization in comics, but I feel like he never spends enough time with anything to actually get much characterization done, much less properly tell his stories.  They always feel rushed and thin.  Ocean Master's new costumes seems a bit boring.  I think a bit more influence from his classic looks would have added some interest to it.  I really would have liked to get to know him a bit better.  Did anyone else think that, despite the body count of the Atlantian invasion, Ocean Master's fate seemed a bit cold?  Specifically:
Spoiler
The fact that Aquaman just turns him over to rot in prison, despite the fact that he's not part of the surface culture and that his attack, in his eyes, was an entirely justified act of war?  I don't know, but the last panel with him sitting in the cell, asking for his brother, really struck me.  That's good storytelling on one hand, but it also really makes Aquaman seem cruel on another.  It seems like some other type of resolution might have been possible.

Once again, the problem of starting in the middle hurts the story being told here, as we've got lots of references to stories that we haven't been told yet.  I'd like to have read those tales first.  It would have made what happens here carry more weight.  I understand the motivation of the twist in this arc, but I didn't care for it.  I liked the character, and this effectively ruins him for this DC Universe.  Also, I really hate the bloodthirsty, savage Hawkman we get here.  I miss Katar.  For that matter, I miss Ray and Rex.  Zatanna's and Black Canary's new costumes are pretty stupid looking and bland.

The next issues, with the appearance of Despero and the recruiting drive were interesting, and there were actually some good character moments.  However, I wish some of these pretenders would get out of my Watchtower and make room for characters I care about. ;)  I suppose it's a moot point now.  Anyway, Despero's attack was cool, until it was resolved in such a cheap way.  I miss the JLU version of Despero.  He was a good deal more interesting than "Blaaarg!  Kill everyone!"  Ohh, it's worth noting that I think the storyline with Batman and the boxes is handled relatively well here, and Bruce comes off as less sociopathic than some other versions of this story.  That isn't to say it's perfect, but it could certainly be worse.

The Shazam backup isn't great.  Billy Batson is a jerk.  Yeah, yeah, hard childhood; whatever, he's not very likeable. 

I'll say this for the book, though.  It looks fantastic.  I'm sad that the art doesn't serve more worthy material.  I really, REALLY wish it was better, because I love the JLA.  It's my favorite comic team, and it includes my favorite comic character.  This is the book that I most wish was worth reading.

Aquaman:  Arg..these stories are frustrating me as well, but mostly because they are really very good, but with a couple of glaring flaws.  I love the tension between Arthur's responsibilities being explored.  That's a core part of the character, and it provides great story grist.  I like the parody that Murk is (bare chest, hook hand, etc.), and I can't wait for Arthur to slap him down, hard.  I really hope that's coming, and soon.  I would love for them to keep exploring the Atlantian culture and setting.  Once again, I wish we had gotten the 'first' stories first.  I want to see Arthur discover Atlantis and learn about it.  The Topo thing seemed pointless.  I'd prefer something a little closer to the original, and I think that could have been fun.  The same is true of Tula.  Gone is the light-hearted but heroic girl of Atlantis.  These days everyone has to be super serious and hard edged.  Ehh. 

Color me curious about the ancient king. 

What really bothered me, though, is the return of the Others in issue #20.  As if we didn't get enough of these losers already.  Once again Johns' 'mind the gap' storytelling rears its head, and we're thrown into a narrative that has little explanation or interest, and with characters that are very little more than vague powersets.  The little reveal about jungle-woman-whatever-her-name-is only served to annoy me more, because it made the character even less interesting, which was a neat feat.  The fact that they left the Mera issue hanging to tell this story makes it all the more unforgivable.  I don't like these characters, I don't know these characters, despite having read several comics featuring them at this point, and I certainly am not reading Aquaman to read about them.

Still, I'm curious about the stories that are developing in the background.  Once again, touching on Orm makes me a bit uneasy with how he was treated.  I think Aquaman needs to storm that prison and take his brother out of there, dead civilians or not.  I understand its the creation of a villainous motivation we're seeing, but still...I sort of think that Aquaman is going to deserve the antagonism he's going to get in return for this.  The book looks fantastic.  The art here is, for my money, just about the prettiest in comics.  I don't think it could get much better.  I like the appearance of the Scavenger, and I hope we'll see lots more of him, and some more appearances by classic Aqua-foes.  So, long story not-so-short, I'm still onboard until my next shipment of comics, at least.



God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

Quote from: BentonGrey on June 09, 2013, 05:49:28 AM
Thanks for the response, 'Mato, and I pretty much agree with everything you've said, though I wouldn't use modern iterations of the characters you cited as examples of the type of variety I'd like to see.  Both of them have portrayals that are more tawdry and/or tortured than I care for. 

Modern-ish maybe, but not modern. Roy's daughter Liam was killed in a horrible crossover (same one where roy lost his arm) and now never existed. Because having a guy make do as a single father and genuinely love his child was apparently too complex for dc's writers  <_<. As for Batman/Aquaman... aside from some stupidness along the way with Mera, that status quo for both characters has been around since the 60s/70s at least.

BentonGrey

Well 'Mato, I'm using that term VERY broadly.  Keep in mind, most of my comic reading experience is Silver and Bronze Age.  As for Aquaman, the death of his sons is one of the most disastrous stories in comic history.  It ruined the character for decades, as well as ruining his marriage and Mera's characterization.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

I don't disagree about Arthur Jr... at least, not entirely. I think it gave the character a darker edge, but there were better ways of doing that then what they did, and the back and forth on his marriage to Mera was dumb.

As for Modern... I don't consider "Modern" to apply to things that were the status quo 10+ years ago and aren't now.

BentonGrey

Quote from: Tomato on June 09, 2013, 07:06:56 PM
I don't disagree about Arthur Jr... at least, not entirely. I think it gave the character a darker edge, but there were better ways of doing that then what they did, and the back and forth on his marriage to Mera was dumb.

As for Modern... I don't consider "Modern" to apply to things that were the status quo 10+ years ago and aren't now.

Haha, it's all one to me, 'Mato.  I don't insist on the terminology, though. :)

Any thoughts on the other books I wrote about or the recent Aquaman stories?
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

BentonGrey

So, has no-one else been reading Flash, Aquaman, or Justice League who has any thoughts?
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

oldmanwinters

Quote from: BentonGrey on June 22, 2013, 09:57:09 AM
So, has no-one else been reading Flash, Aquaman, or Justice League who has any thoughts?

Although I do like tracking down old DC comics in the quarter bin, I don't keep up with the current comics.  Flash is the one book that I'd most be interested in following, although the (shortlived?) Hawk & Dove relaunch also intrigues me, since they are reuniting Hank Hall & Dawn Granger for the first time since their tragic demise as a team in Armageddon 2001 (I hated that twist).

I'm curious to know what the future of Wally West and his apparently now-nonexistent legacy will be.  I might just have to check out the Flashpoint animated adaptation ASAP.

BentonGrey

In that case, Winters, let me strongly recommend a very cheap and readily available series from the 90s that a lot of folks likely wouldn't think to pick up.  The Batman Adventures and Batman and Robin Adventures, based in the Timm-verse continuity and sharing an art style with the Animated Series are both surprisingly good.  I'd recommend stopping after those, rather than getting into the Gotham Adventures and the Lost years, though there are those who would defend those books to the death.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

bat1987

Quote from: BentonGrey on June 22, 2013, 09:57:09 AM
So, has no-one else been reading Flash, Aquaman, or Justice League who has any thoughts?

Used to read Justice League, but it was kinda meh even from the start. Artwork is nice, but other than that, I don't like the character interaction. They are sometimes way too hostile towards each other. They don't act like someone who spent last 6(?) years working together.

Cyber Burn

Before my finances went south, I was really enjoying the Flash book.

Also, in regards to Hawk and Dove, I'm a huge fan of the characters, but as far as the relaunch goes...Liefield thoroughly screwed it up. Definitely not worth the money I wasted.

BentonGrey

Yeah, I know what you mean Bat.  The team dynamic was okay, though not great, for the semi-origin arc, but after that they didn't really do much to create a great set of personalities.  I think that's one of the things I don't much care for about a lot of these books.  There's no real heart in most of these stories.  They're all flash and no substance.

CB, that surprises me not at all. :P
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

oldmanwinters

#463
Quote from: BentonGrey on June 22, 2013, 05:15:56 PM
In that case, Winters, let me strongly recommend a very cheap and readily available series from the 90s that a lot of folks likely wouldn't think to pick up.  The Batman Adventures and Batman and Robin Adventures, based in the Timm-verse continuity and sharing an art style with the Animated Series are both surprisingly good.  I'd recommend stopping after those, rather than getting into the Gotham Adventures and the Lost years, though there are those who would defend those books to the death.

Heh, I've already got most (if not all) of those!  I followed the 1st two Batman series monthly as a kid, but have tried to track down cheap back issues I missed over the past 5 or so years.  I like a number of those Gotham Adventures stories (especially the first 10 issues or so), but many of those issues have a "phoned in" quality to them, something which I would rarely say about the previous issues. 

I find the Superman Adventures book to be a very strong series as well, which took some bold steps in some of their stories (they even found a way to do a Krypto story that had quite a somber ending!).  I'm now starting to dabble with the short-lived "Adventures in the DC Universe" which is a neat envisioning of what the Timm-verse Justice League might have been before it actually was.  I don't yet have any desire to bother with the Justice League Adventures though.

Quote from: Cyber Burn on June 22, 2013, 10:40:43 PM
Before my finances went south, I was really enjoying the Flash book.

Also, in regards to Hawk and Dove, I'm a huge fan of the characters, but as far as the relaunch goes...Liefield thoroughly screwed it up. Definitely not worth the money I wasted.

I took a peak at the New 52 #1 the other week but passed on it.  The Liefield art was actually better than I expected, but I'm guessing the digital color probably covered up a number of his various problems.  The ironic thing is that I really like his work on the 5-issue Hawk & Dove mini-series, which I think was his debut with the mainstream publishers.  I can't really find any big problems with his art and it's got a very dynamic yet not over-the-top style that would soon characterize his Marvel work.  The guy actually drew the feet to many characters and both male and female look fairly well proportioned.  Sad to say, but I think Liefield probably peaked during that Hawk & Dove series.

Cyber Burn

That series is actually where my love of the characters came from.  But yeah, sice then, Liefield went downhill fast.

oldmanwinters

Quote from: Cyber Burn on June 22, 2013, 11:42:51 PM
That series is actually where my love of the characters came from.  But yeah, sice then, Liefield went downhill fast.

I'm curious to know how much Liefield's early art on Hawk and Dove benefited from Karl Kessel's inks.  It's so strange.  The guy demonstrates great attention to detail in those issues and only a couple of years later he starts going absolutely nuts with his exaggerated style.  Did the guy just feel compelled to change everything to make himself stand out or did he get so busy that he couldn't put as much time into his later work as he did with the early H&D issues?

deano_ue

 i called into pick up todays books and was asked about villain month coming up. confused i asked why

it turns out that each villain month comic has 4 covers so for example jla 7 will all be released with the same number but completely different stories

so JL #23: darksied will be totally different than JL:#23 lobo

so the guy at my shop asked which i wanted because if they had went with my current standing order and because i get JL and he put in all 4 of every dc comic i pick up my monthly bill would jump by nearly £200 -£250

so keep an eye out guys this villain month could really hit your wallet

Cyber Burn

Sooo glad I cancelled my pull. I really don't like the idea of having to spend an insane amount of money on gimmick ideas.

murs47

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on June 26, 2013, 09:01:25 PM
i called into pick up todays books and was asked about villain month coming up. confused i asked why

it turns out that each villain month comic has 4 covers so for example jla 7 will all be released with the same number but completely different stories

so JL #23: darksied will be totally different than JL:#23 lobo

so the guy at my shop asked which i wanted because if they had went with my current standing order and because i get JL and he put in all 4 of every dc comic i pick up my monthly bill would jump by nearly £200 -£250

so keep an eye out guys this villain month could really hit your wallet

Poor form, DC. Poor form.

cmdrkoenig67

#469
I apologize if this sound overly negative, but after reading a lot of your posts, guys...Makes me think that DC is self-destructing.  Red Robin was supposedly never a Robin, yet in Titans he is implied as having been one?  It sounds like they can't even keep their new continuity straight?  52 variant covers for one book is nauseating, why would any company do that (other than attempting to rob their readers blind)?...It's a great way to turn off fans and make your product as inaccessible as possible, that's for sure.

I've never been a huge DC fan, I pretty much only love the Doom Patrol, but DC has ruined them...I'm pretty bummed out about it too.

Dana

bat1987

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 27, 2013, 10:14:21 AM
I apologize if this sound overly negative, but after reading a lot of your posts, guys...Makes me think that DC is self-destructing.  Red Robin was supposedly never a Robin, yet in Titans he is implied as having been one?  It sounds like they can't even keep their new continuity straight?  52 variant covers for one book is nauseating, why would any company do that (other than attempting to rob their readers blind)?...It's a great way to turn off fans and make your product as inaccessible as possible, that's for sure.

I've never been a huge DC fan, I pretty much only love the Doom Patrol, but DC has ruined them...I'm pretty bummed out about it too.

Dana

Ya I remember the Robin thing, that was weird. But they retconned it later, it happens I guess. But still, to make that kind of mistake early in the new 52 is irresponsible.

While 52 variant covers is ridicilous, it was there to generate sales (which it did). Its a very common move by both DC and Marvel to have a lot of variant covers to boost sales, and it works. Not saying its something I like, but DC (and Marvel) are a business so yeah...

bat1987

#471
So finale of Morrison's Batman epic that started in 2006 came out today in Batman Inc#13

Spoiler
What a downer and utter disappointment this issue was. It feels like Grant just said f*** it and wrapped up the story. It felt heartless and even ends with a weird cliffhanger. Expected so much more...Oh ya and Kathy Kane is back, just to shoot Talia and dissapear...

murs47

Quote from: bat1987 on July 31, 2013, 07:41:03 PM
So finale of Morrison's Batman epic that started in 2006 came out today in Batman Inc#13

Spoiler
What a downer and utter disappointment this issue was. It feels like Grant just said f*** it and wrapped up the story. It felt heartless and even ends with a weird cliffhanger. Expected so much more...Oh ya and Kathy Kane is back, just to shoot Talia and dissapear...

Agreed. I almost wish Grant just never wrote the ending, leaving us readers to use our imaginations for an ending.

Glitch Girl

-Glitch Girl

"Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because it's the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters." - Greg Rucka

Tomato

*twitch* So, apparently, the final culmination of the Villains Month is gonna be the return of Earth 3, aka the Crime Syndicate of Amerika.

So if I start acting even more crazy than usual, it's because I'm torn between my current disgust with the New 52 and event comics in general; and my obsession with reading anything and everything CSA related.

Cyber Burn

Haven't bought a comic in a while, but for the CSA, I might have to check this out.

Tomato

I actually found out about it because DC Collectibles just released teaser pics of a few N52 CSA figures... which aren't actually that different from the existing CSA designs (no silly lines all over the costume, just a few altered details like UM having a red belt), so I'm happy for that. I wouldn't be surprised if it's been in the works since E2, because there's a story in Batman which introduces an E1 version of Thomas Jr (a silly version which makes no sense, but a version nonetheless).

Cyber Burn

Quote from: Tomato on August 11, 2013, 12:01:38 AM
I actually found out about it because DC Collectibles just released teaser pics of a few N52 CSA figures... which aren't actually that different from the existing CSA designs (no silly lines all over the costume, just a few altered details like UM having a red belt), so I'm happy for that. I wouldn't be surprised if it's been in the works since E2, because there's a story in Batman which introduces an E1 version of Thomas Jr (a silly version which makes no sense, but a version nonetheless).

Could you please post a link to that 'Mato? I'd love to see them.

Tomato

I have the image itself up on my antimato tumblr, but the link is http://toynewsi.com/news.php?catid=10&itemid=20869

Cyber Burn

Well it appears as though that DC might actually not screw this up too much.