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DC Comics Reboot

Started by B A D, August 10, 2011, 04:50:53 PM

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HarryTrotter

Not that we needed another evidence that DC doesnt know what the hell are they doing,but here it is.  :rolleyes:
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

#1501
They are trying to tell meaningful stories in the comic media that will be a beacon to the next generation.

No, I didn't say that with a straight face. What they are doing is using the "Kitchen Sink" method to try and sell comics. I'm afraid there will be more "sink" in it.

BentonGrey

This whole naked Batman thing is one of the more ridiculous in a long line of ridiculous ideas to come out of modern comics.  Why?  Just...why? 

Anyway, anyone still reading Aquaman?  I'm probably a few months behind now, but I'm really not enjoying the whole Corm Rath as king arc.  It's not bad, but the art is really just a poor fit for the book, especially considering how amazing the art on this book has been since the beginning.  On a minor note, I'm really ready for the stupid long hair to go away.  I'm just disappointed with every issue I open.  There's been a ton of just floundering around (sorry!), with not much happening and the plot not advancing, and the recent (to me) twist:
Spoiler
with Mera and Aquaman having to split up as she takes the throne because...plot....is really stupid.  Mera as Queen is a great idea, but the direction they're going with it just seems unnecessary.

I see I'm now several issues behind, and it will be a while before I see if things improve.  Has anyone read "Drowned Earth"?  Is it worth picking up?
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

HarryTrotter

I dont really see any reason other then "we might get some mainstream media attention".
Which probably did more harm then good,but nobody thought that far.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#1504
Doomsday Clock:

Spoiler
The little explanation for the new Bubastis was actually pretty neat. I enjoyed seeing Ozy's little ploy kinda fall apart, and of course, Doc Manhattan finally shows up in this thing and that's pretty cool. And on that note: not to be outdone by Batman: Damned, blue genitals confirmed! Don't worry, it's only one panel, the rest is blue backside.

But who cares about the Watchmen book, because DC also put out the only thing people are going to be talking about right now. Tom King's Heroes in Crisis came out and spoiler alert, it's complete garbage of the kind we haven't had from DC in, actually quite a while, at LEAST since the start of the New 52 (Oh wait, I forgot about Bendis' Superman, oh well moving on), and EVERYBODY hates it. And once again, because it's Tom King and includes his terrible version of Booster Gold I'm glad that's the reaction, but honestly? It's not worth it.

Spoiler
We're introduced to the premise as advertised leading up to the book's release: a "Sanctuary" where heroes with PTSD can stay and recover. It's a wooden shack in the middle of Kansas or somesuch. By the end of the issue EVERYBODY there is dead except Harley and Booster Gold. This includes former Titan Hotspot aka Johto, Citizen Steel, Blue Jay, Lagoon Boy, a character I'm told is Tattoed Man, and......

.....Roy Harper and Wally West. Oh and every single one of these characters dies offscreen. No heroic blaze of glory, as usual.

So yeah, people are cheesed off and rightly so. I've heard comparisons to Identity Crisis and I think that's a fair comparison (I'm going to guess that for my money IC will have been the better book, but again, I really don't care for Tom King) and yeah, it's just stupid and unnecessarily and insulting and begs the question "What was point of bringing Wally back for Rebirth only to kill him off?" Are they going to bring Roy and Wally back? Of course they will. At some point, possibly by the end of this mini. But that's not what's out this week. What's out this week is a book where DC jettisoned the concept for their mini for the opening issue, proving they had no intention of actually using it, and relying on tired, contemptuous shock value death. 

I mean, I knew it was going to be BAD, but I had no clue it was going to be THIS bad.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Ok,good news/horrible news time.
Good news, Young Justice will be back in its original lineup.
Horrible news...Brian Michael Bendis is writing it.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Yep, was thinking of posting that myself.

I spoke a while back here, about the possibility of Bendis writing the Batman books and getting his hand on Tim Drake. Well, apparently I should have kept my mouth shut, because now Brian "Have I ever really written anyone in character? Really?" Bendis gets to write ruin Tim Drake, the Connor Kent Superboy (who arguably came pre-ruined in The New 52) and the newly restored Bart Allen aka Impulse. Because apparently no idea is too terrible for DC. They don't care if the actual fans will hate it, they'll do it anyway! That's the kind of dare that just revs up their engine! Geez, DC, at least space this stuff out. You're not even two issues into Heroes in Crisis yet.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

I was going to say reset the counter,but at this point...wait,its been 10 days.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

On a more positive note, I found out today that Amazon's got a listing for the final volume of Ostrander's Suicide Squad. May 2019. Quite a ways away but it is coming out. Yay! Nice to see DC can still get some things right. It's funny, just the day before I was wondering if it was ever going to come out.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Silver Shocker

#1509
Heroes in Crisis #2
You thought it couldn't get dumber? Tom King's just getting started! [EDIT, it's two years too late, but I have been informed the first issue of the book was literally titled "Just Warming Up!"]

Spoiler
Harley Quinn, on the run, is cornered by Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and beats Superman and Batman easily, fights off WW (with WW grunting from a hit) and escapes while Wonder Woman just stands there. This involves Harley getting ahold of WW's lasso, strangling Batman with it, forcing him to tell the truth and tell her about his weapon to use against Superman (Kryptonite in his utility belt) which she then steals, and uses to incapacitate Superman. You couldn't make this crap up if you tried.

Also Poison Ivy apparently was killed off-screen, but she might be revealed to be alive later in a later issue.

Only 2 issues in and this book is now firmly established as Cry for Justice bad. How do you DO THAT?

[Update] Oh, also from earlier in the week, over in Nightwing, Nightwing is no longer named Dick Grayson. He is now named Ric Grayson. No seriously. How did I miss that?
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

daglob

Okay, the combat scenario is rather clever, but in this instance I can't see it happening.

Silver Shocker

#1511
A comment I saw on a another site described it like this "I could come up with a better way to write that fight, but you shouldn't try to make a GOOD version of that fight, because there isn't one. If you have to have it happen, you need to change your plot".

I'd have to agree there. This is remarkably easy to fix. Either have only one or two of them there, have a different roster of less powerful heroes, or have Harley get some help. Take the Identity Crisis fight with Deathstroke, which this immediately got compared to. Yes, it was criticized as soon as the book came out, and rightfully so, but at least you had lesser heroes (relatively speaking) present, and Doctor Light, KNOWING he was going to end up encountering members of the Justice League, specifically hired backup from someone more capable to protect him (Slade). Mind you, Doctor Light in his first appearance in JLA fought the JLA and won, but that wasn't really the issue since he was consistent in IC with some other stories he appeared in (most notably, Ostrander was the one who turned him into a wimp in his Suicide Squad run)

You can do the fight, you just have to add some modifiers. If it was Harley with a Luthor-style strength-enhancing suit, or a superpowered weapon (like that Apocalypse hammer she has in her own comics) Or a different character (it actually WOULD be believable if it was Deathstroke or Prometheus). It's all about how you execute it. Take Batman, for example. The idea that he can beat anyone should be silly (and sometimes it is) given the differences in power sets. What makes it work is Batman is almost always written to be clever, prepared, and resourceful, as in having the talent and the right tools for the right occasion. Luthor's also been portrayed that way, like his fight with Grodd and Tala in JLU "You wouldn't believe what this cost me". Not so much here. It just happens because it needs to happen. Harley AND the writer were written into a corner.

In any case, it's been speculated since issue 1 that this book is, to some degree being editorially-driven (fans have been placing the blame firmly on Didio, and this does seem like his kind of thing) and I saw a comment saying the Booster Gold/Flash scenes in this issue being drawn by a different artist could be a sign that they hastily added in at the proverbially last minute, so it's possible the writing got a little sloppy as a result.

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Im pretty sure DC only keeps Didio around as a fall guy at this point.
DIDIO!!!
On the other hand,this seems just unoriginal enough to be Kings idea.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

kkhohoho

Quote from: Silver Shocker on November 01, 2018, 06:46:37 AM
(most notably, Ostrander was the one who turned him into a wimp in his Suicide Squad run)

It goes back further than that.  He was a wimp ever since he showed up in Wolfman's Titans. By his last appearance there, he was basically a joke.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Silver Shocker

#1514
Well, drawing a line from King's Batman to this, someone online said King has this habit of depicting Batman as incompetent at what he does. I haven't read much of his Batman run, but that doesn't sound surprising. I mean, again, one of the things he explores through Batman/Bruce is him being, well, to quote the Christian Bale version "A guy who dresses like a bat...clearly has issues." And again, because he's Tom King, he writes like it's this groundbreaking interpretation when it's well established material for most of my lifetime.

There's also all the therapy stuff, which fans say is also terrible. And honestly, I don't even bother reading it in the pages I've seen online. If King failed with Booster Gold's characterization in his Batman run, and opens this with exploitative shock value death that carries no emotional weight (other than annoyance) because this is a magic fictional world where people in red onsies come back to life by running so fast they travel through time, why should I trust him to handle PTSD themes with these characters, when he can't even write them as well as the versions of them on Cartoon Network? [Edit: OH! I should probably add, I'm talking about Batman and Booster Gold as depicted in the various Batman cartoons, JLU and Justice League Action, not the caricature versions of the Titans in Teen Titans Go.]

Quote from: kkhohoho on November 01, 2018, 12:22:13 PM
Quote from: Silver Shocker on November 01, 2018, 06:46:37 AM
(most notably, Ostrander was the one who turned him into a wimp in his Suicide Squad run)

It goes back further than that.  He was a wimp ever since he showed up in Wolfman's Titans. By his last appearance there, he was basically a joke.

Fair enough. I actually was thinking earlier I should have phrased that differently. I shouldn't have said Ostrander started that, just that he did it too.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Dont get me started on Kings Omega Men.What an overhyped load of...dont get me started. :banghead:

Random thought,industrys mercenary logic dictates that if something did ok in the 70's or 80's,it doomed to an cursed unlife of reboots and retries(Outsiders come to mind).But DC had a lot of newer stuff that never really got a second chance like Shadowpact,Checkmate or Manhunter.Too soon?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

#1516
The industry likes to use these familiar names because people will recognize them, even if they don't necessarily know the property first hand, so that at least gives them a bit of publicity jolt, but they seem to have trouble making a new iteration that will last past 2 years or so. That happens a lot with Doom Patrol. And then you'll get a lot of stuff come up to coincide with TV and movies. Having Black Lightning and the Outsiders appear in Detective Comics? Not actually a bad idea, since people will buy Batman books. I've said before, the best thing to ever come out of the Suicide Squad movie was that Ostrander's run got reprinted and I love those comics to death, warts and all. We just got word that a Secret Six show is going to be rolling out in the future. Headed by Bill Lawrence of all people (so I expect his wife Krista Miller, aka Jordon from Scrubs, will make an appearance, as will Ted from Scrubs) so whether it's any good or not (Scrubs' mix of goofy comedy and bittersweet drama might actually work for Secret Six) I genuinely look forward to another twelve issues or so of the Secret Six comic when that show actually rolls out.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Im not a zero sum person,Im not saying we have x when we should have Y.But titles I mentioned had decent runs and decent sales a decade or so ago.So I find it weird that DC never attempted to reboot them.
I guess Justice League Dark sounds better then Shadowpact and similar reasons.Whats Bill Willingham up to these Days,actually?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

Green Lantern #1 was good.Grant Morrison and Liam Sharp are the right people for this job.Its not even that hard to pick up,after I missed the last decade of GL stories.
It even teases a GL/GA teamup.  :)

Oh yeah,we are getting another Outsiders revival.I hate being right sometimes.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

Young Justice #1

An entire issue of people asking "Is that a gun?A REAL gun?" and Impuls being IMPULSIVE  <_< .Oh and bad guys stoping to discuss how Earths law enforcement is savage and fascist.Im not abridging that,they actually pause with wrecking the city to say that.   :rolleyes:
Maybe I dont know where the moral high ground is,but extradimensional invaders aren't on it.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

That's out now huh? Well, it's Bendis, so I wasn't expecting it to be good. When they first announced Young Justice by Bendis I knew I wanted nothing to do with it because after he phoned his way through that last volume of Guardians and his atrocious work on Superman, I didn't trust him enough to want to read something new by him anyway.

If he wants to ruin or kill Tim Drake, he can go ahead as far as I'm concerned. I'm not invested in DC's current stories anymore anyways after garbage like Heroes in Crisis.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

#1521
Its not quite peak Bendis,but its up there.
Also,the issue starts with some guys on Gemworld observing how Gemworld changes whenever there is a Crisis on Earth.If they think they had it bad,they should see the Legion of Superheroes.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Lol well, that's certainly true.

No it's not Bendis at his most infamous, but that shouldn't be the bar. We should expect better with these characters no matter who's writing.

Any writer who looks at Clark, Lois and Jon as a Superman family, arguably the best development in the Rebirth era, and a genuine step forward and says "I don't want to write them as a family, or honor the work of the previous writers and I do want to anger the fans" and writes them out in the vary first arc, makes it a mystery to be explained later (aka lazy) and does it the way they did it (they go explore the galaxy with a terrorist supervillain who incited violent acts all over the world, and no, I don't care why Lois and Jon did this, I don't care, because there is no possible good reason to do this) isn't worthy of being defended and doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. The ONE thing Bendis needed to NOT do was write out Lois and Jon and it's the first thing he did (actually it's the fifth, the first four were, in order, make fun of the trunks in the very first book to bring them back, introduce a generic strong guy villain, have Supes get his butt kicked in his own book, and retcon Krypton right after Supes already revisited Kypton in the very previous arc)

Also, I don't like Patrick Gleason's art.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

GhostMachine

I've always thought if Bendis as a hack. His talent isn't in the actual writing. It is in padding things out, and making a story last two to three times longer than it should.

Also, I have a sketch of Kilowog done by Gleason for me at a con, but I agree he's not a good choice for the book.

Silver Shocker

Maybe, but pretty much everybody was writing for the trade in the Jemas era, so something about Bendis' writing must have stood out to make him a hit. I would point to his grounded gritty crime work on books like Jessica Jones and Daredevil, and his work on Ultimate Spider-Man. Mind you, the fact that Bendis hasn't really grown as a writer in any meaningful way in all this time may have a lot to do with that. He's still padding out stories, and of course, my current least favorite trope of his, taking story-related info fans want to know about the story, and holding off on revealing it so he can make it a "mystery" to be revealed later.

Any way, I'm sure I've said this many many times (HT has touched on this as well, calling his character voices a "hive mind") but one of the big problems I have with B is that he's just not suited to just any old superhero genre or book. Marvel (and now DC) are putting him on books he's just not suited for, and while some writers, perhaps one could say many writers, are flexible and can write different Marvel and DC characters, Bendis really can't. His character voice range is incredibly limited and poor, and even well established and well defined characters like, say, Emma Frost, ended up sounding wrong when written by him, saying things they just wouldn't say in any other book written by any other writer.

Bendis wasn't well suited to writing Avengers, and he's really not really suited to writing Superman. And while he does have experience writing teen superheroes with Ultimate Spider-Man, I just don't trust him enough to try out his Young Justice, and any time I hear bad things about it it's just going to reinforce that notion.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Batman and Justice League v1.Somehow the idea of a DC manga sounds a Lot more interesting then it is.The art is good But the story...
-Why is Joker allowed to sell energy drinks?
-Why are he and Lex Luthor messing with magic?
-Why can Superman see lay lines?
-Whats Ocean Masters beef with Batman?
Best part is when Gordon sees Bruce Wayne with his entire torso bandaged and shrugs it off because "Bruce Wayne is a playboy,this has got to do with that lifestyle".
See kid,thats just some weird sex thing.  :lol:
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Well in the interest of fairness...the Adam West Batman show was very much "guilty" of that first one. Joker and Penguin are out of prison constantly with everyone pretty much acting like they've served their time and not that concerned about them walking the streets and showing up at public venues....or running for mayor. Yes, that version of Joker wasn't a serial killer anarchist terrorist bomber, and Penguin wasn't a ruthless mob boss, but they were still career criminals.

I say guilty in quotes because the Adam West show was a goofball comedy. The sillier, the better. Somehow I doubt that defense works as well for this manga.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that that manga is even more bat guano insane than Batman Ninja.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

#1527
Its sort of funny because this Joker looks like Heath Ledgers Joker doing a Cesar Romero Joker cosplay.
Its less insane and more really freaking contrived.Like somebody beat the elements with a hammer until they fit where they wanted them to be.
In other news,I finished Infinity Inc v1.I cant say I was ever a fan of Thomas' Gold Age by the way of 70's approach(this is early 80's actually).But its okay.And Im not sure if this is just "by todays standards" but some of the costumes are fashion disasters.coughFurycough.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

I did make fun of Outsiders and Defenders for being relaunched every few years,but recently DC did an even weirder one...Freedom Fighters.
Because they were on CW?I mean,come on FF never made it past 10 issues,so why are they doing it again?
Im not saying Outsiders and FF are taking a slot from something potentially better,but where is the bloody Shadowpact?Manhunter?Hitman?Impulse?
Or that JSA relaunch you teased 3 years ago,for that matter?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Meh, I'm just waiting for that Bill Lawrence Secret Six tv show to get made so we'll get another comic. And if we're lucky it'll last as long as the previous volume. Or you know, be an ongoing at all and not just a mini series.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa