Young Justice

Started by Tomato, August 30, 2011, 10:22:43 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Tomato

well, time IS passing in the show, so it makes sense he'd eventually go through a growth spurt.

As it happens, I know several of the characters get different looks next season. Here's one half of the YJ Invasion box art (Mattel made one wave of "invasion" toys before cancelling YJ) showing new looks for Robin, Miss M, and Aqualad from next season

Spoiler

They have one of Superboy on the other side, but his costume is pretty much the same as it was at the end of Season 1, since he's just wearing the longer shirt.

Talavar

Robin stills looks like Robin in that photo, just a little different, and I like Miss Martian's short hair.  Aqualad's weird armour isn't doing it for me though.

Tomato

Quote from: Talavar on April 23, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Robin stills looks like Robin in that photo, just a little different, and I like Miss Martian's short hair.  Aqualad's weird armour isn't doing it for me though.

Spoiler
I think it's supposed to be like Black Manta's armor, which is interesting.


Tomato

Quote from: Tomato on April 21, 2012, 12:40:18 AM
Season 2 Trailer

...

Spoiler
Lobo, Adam Strange, Lagoon Boy, Bumblebee, Blue Beetle, Wonder Girl, probably several others I missed

S2's going to be very interesting.

Already beat you to it middie

Amazo Version 2.2

sorry, just my personnal opinion, but miss m's new look just doesnt work for me. at least the longer hair, the whole look as a whole, had a reason. the new look, not wso much.
For anyone, and everyone, who has ever done anything to improve the FF/FFvs3R gaming experience, I want to say thank you. Life is so short, and you have all brought me so much joy. I hope that one day, I am somehow able to return the kindness and generosity that all of you have shown.

oldmanwinters

Now I'm curious...

Did Miss Martian cut her hair or did she just shape shift it to be shorter?   :cool:

BentonGrey

Well, that was certainly a good finale...though it definitely brought home for me how the emotional queues of this show just don't resonate for me the way JLU did.
Spoiler
Perhaps it's the teeny-bopper setting, but the three kisses at the end left me feeling fairly unmoved.  What was more telling for me, though, was that the whole reveal with Red Arrow being a clone, which should have been pretty poignant, didn't really grab me.  I'm not entirely sure what it is about it...probably the voice actors, I suppose. 

You know what I don't like about this series?  The League is just so cold and boring.  All of the life that it should have is replaced by nothing but somber moments, unless Captain Marvel happens to be around.  I know they aren't the focus of the series, but it still bothers me.

Anyway, the fights at the end were certainly great, though I agree with those of you who pointed out the plot device's awkwardness.  I did like how they resolved the fights at the end, not just having the kids beat their betters straight up, and I liked that they made the point that the Leaguers were being controlled, which slowed them down.  The new season looks interesting, and I am definitely glad to see Beast Boy involved.  I'm not crazy about the new Robin costume, though I agree, he does look a little older.  My guess is there will be some time passed between this season and that.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Talavar

I've noticed that the first episode of the new season starts on Jan 1, while the finale of last season was also Jan 1.  Since they really don't seem to be happening on the same day, I conclude (using superior deductive powers) that at least one year must have passed.

Quote from: oldmanwinters on April 23, 2012, 09:36:50 PM
Now I'm curious...

Did Miss Martian cut her hair or did she just shape shift it to be shorter?   :cool:

Since she doesn't have any hair in her natural form, I'm going to assume she just shapeshifted it shorter.

Tomato

Quote from: Talavar on April 24, 2012, 02:37:26 AM
I've noticed that the first episode of the new season starts on Jan 1, while the finale of last season was also Jan 1.  Since they really don't seem to be happening on the same day, I conclude (using superior deductive powers) that at least one year must have passed.

Quote from: oldmanwinters on April 23, 2012, 09:36:50 PM
Now I'm curious...

Did Miss Martian cut her hair or did she just shape shift it to be shorter?   :cool:

Since she doesn't have any hair in her natural form, I'm going to assume she just shapeshifted it shorter.

Not necessarily. It could just pick up right when last episode left off, because it was only barely new years at the end of the episode.

Talavar

Quote from: Tomato on April 24, 2012, 03:56:35 AM
Quote from: Talavar on April 24, 2012, 02:37:26 AM
I've noticed that the first episode of the new season starts on Jan 1, while the finale of last season was also Jan 1.  Since they really don't seem to be happening on the same day, I conclude (using superior deductive powers) that at least one year must have passed.

Quote from: oldmanwinters on April 23, 2012, 09:36:50 PM
Now I'm curious...

Did Miss Martian cut her hair or did she just shape shift it to be shorter?   :cool:

Since she doesn't have any hair in her natural form, I'm going to assume she just shapeshifted it shorter.

Not necessarily. It could just pick up right when last episode left off, because it was only barely new years at the end of the episode.

True, but with the new looks for Robin, Miss Martian & Aqualad, I'd assume more time has passed than part of a day.  If the new looks don't happen right away, then yeah, it could be the same day.

BentonGrey

New look for Aqualad?  I hadn't seen that yet.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

#102
the trailer middie and I posted shows new scenes with their old outfits in the opening, and Aqualad's new look is only on the box art so far. I expect the changes will be transitional, like how Superboy got the longer shirt during the latter episodes of season 1 because it was winter.

Quote from: BentonGrey on April 24, 2012, 04:22:27 AM
New look for Aqualad?  I hadn't seen that yet.

pic is in spoiler tags on the top of this page. It's nothing awe-inspiring tho.

Edit: So, for those who aren't aware, Greg Weisman (writer of the YJ comic and one of the show's co-creator... also creator of Gargoyles and co-creator of Spectacular Spiderman) has a section on the gargoyles fansite "Station 8" where he answers fan questions about the various shows he's been involved in. For those who haven't been there yet, I highly recommend browsing through the archives, it's an interesting read.

What floors me though, is the lack of common sense in some of the questions. The backlog of questions is up in the 900s right now, and he only answers maybe a dozen at a time, meaning even if your question IS accepted, you're likely to wait months before it's answered. However, people are still asking stuff like "is there going to be a time jump in season 2?" Ummm, since we'll probably be on episode 10 of season 2 by the time he gets around to that part of the queue, chances are you'll already know the answer *face stab*

Anyway, my point is, if anyone else here has a solid question that won't already be answered by the time Greg gets too it, there is a site available and I'd hate to be the only one who knows about it. However, if it comes back to me that one of you losers is involved with the dumb spamming garbage like "what age is X," I will personally hunt you down and stab you in the face. Repeatedly.

Podmark

I remember that site, used to look at it for Gargoyles info. Was a big fan of that show.
Get my skins at:
HeroForce
my Google page

Cyber Burn

For those of us who use Tivo/DVR type stuff, be sure to check your settings, I just check and "Young Justice: Invasion" was not set up to record, even though I have a season pass for "Young Justice".

oldmanwinters

#105
I REALLY liked seeing all the new team members in the Invasion premiere. 

Spoiler
But I'm sorry to see that Zatanna has already "graduated" into the JL.

It's starting to feel like YJ: Invasion is taking all the best aspects of the comics, "Justice League Unlimited," "Teen Titans," and "Batman: Brave and the Bold" (consciously or not) to form a truly memorable showcase of the DC Universe. Anybody else get a laugh out of the "Justice League" text graphic that GBS opinion guy used on his broadcast?

EDIT:
On a more interesting note:
Spoiler
Did Nightwing make a subtle, morbid reference to Jason Todd when he told Tim "Just don't die" ?

Talavar

Very interesting first episode; lots to go over:

Spoiler
  The Robin image we've seen above is different because 'Robin' is now Time Drake.  Dick Grayson has graduated to being Nightwing, because FIVE YEARS have passed.  Crazy stuff.  The Team now includes Wonder Girl, Batgirl, Blue Beetle, Bumblebee, Beast Boy, Laguna (sp?), while Rocket and Zatanna have graduated to the League (along with an apparently standing invitation for Miss Martian, Superboy & Nightwing, who've turned it down).  G. (short for Glorious, I'd imagine) Gordon Godfrey is stirring up trouble for the Justice League on TV news, while Lobo shows up to unveil a secretive alien invasion. 

It's a solid episode, no question, but I kinda hate time-jumps.  Five years is pretty long, and then they can dole out info about what changed in that time period to create false suspense.  For instance, where are Kid Flash, Artemis and Aqualad?  Did something happen to them, or are they just taking the day off?  Character relationships/development can be radically altered, and we don't get to witness it happen, just have to accept it as done -for instance, Superboy & Miss Martian being broken up, Miss Martian seeming much more business-like, with less of her 'Hello Megan' personality on display, Nightwing now being a big-time leader, etc.  Some of these changes were being led up to, but now they've just happened, off camera.  It's like the 'One Year Later' business DC pulled a little while ago - ultimately more annoying than it's worth.

The new team members are nice additions for what we see of them - I've always liked this incarnation of Blue Beetle, and his arguing with his beetle-suit (whose side of the conversation no one else can hear) was nicely done; more female superheroes are always welcome.  The new alien invasion/Rann plotline gets off to an interesting start, touching on the 'missing leaguers' from last season finale without completely explaining it yet.  G. Gordon Godfrey seems very similar to his use in the Justice League episode "Eclipse," but maybe here he'll actually be tied in to his comic book master, Darkseid.  Interesting stuff.

Tomato

#107
Quote from: Talavar on April 28, 2012, 06:32:24 PM
Very interesting first episode; lots to go over:

Spoiler
  The Robin image we've seen above is different because 'Robin' is now Time Drake.  Dick Grayson has graduated to being Nightwing, because FIVE YEARS have passed.  Crazy stuff.  The Team now includes Wonder Girl, Batgirl, Blue Beetle, Bumblebee, Beast Boy, Laguna (sp?), while Rocket and Zatanna have graduated to the League (along with an apparently standing invitation for Miss Martian, Superboy & Nightwing, who've turned it down).  G. (short for Glorious, I'd imagine) Gordon Godfrey is stirring up trouble for the Justice League on TV news, while Lobo shows up to unveil a secretive alien invasion. 

It's a solid episode, no question, but I kinda hate time-jumps.  Five years is pretty long, and then they can dole out info about what changed in that time period to create false suspense.  For instance, where are Kid Flash, Artemis and Aqualad?  Did something happen to them, or are they just taking the day off?  Character relationships/development can be radically altered, and we don't get to witness it happen, just have to accept it as done -for instance, Superboy & Miss Martian being broken up, Miss Martian seeming much more business-like, with less of her 'Hello Megan' personality on display, Nightwing now being a big-time leader, etc.  Some of these changes were being led up to, but now they've just happened, off camera.  It's like the 'One Year Later' business DC pulled a little while ago - ultimately more annoying than it's worth.

The new team members are nice additions for what we see of them - I've always liked this incarnation of Blue Beetle, and his arguing with his beetle-suit (whose side of the conversation no one else can hear) was nicely done; more female superheroes are always welcome.  The new alien invasion/Rann plotline gets off to an interesting start, touching on the 'missing leaguers' from last season finale without completely explaining it yet.  G. Gordon Godfrey seems very similar to his use in the Justice League episode "Eclipse," but maybe here he'll actually be tied in to his comic book master, Darkseid.  Interesting stuff.

Spoiler
I assume "Lagoon/ Lagoona" is a nickname for Lagoon boy, since that's clearly who he's supposed to be. I'm not fond of the time skip either, but from what I've heard the video game coming out bridges the gap a bit, so there's that at least. I will say that by my count, there are 6 Young Justice members we haven't seen yet and 4 new league members, not including Zatanna and Rocket, since season 1 ended.

As for the comment about dying... I don't think it's absurd to conclude that yes, Jason Todd did exist and die in this universe. It's a huge part of Batman mythos, and Weisman's enough of a nerd he wouldn't let it go to waste.

Edit: Sorry, I'm off. it's 3 League and 5 YJ. Math borked up in mah brain meat.

Podmark

Spoiler
Nightwing! TIM!

I think I'm okay with the time jump, it's really brought in some new status quos and characters. Very curious how they're going to manage the cast.

When the show was first announced I was disappointed that Dick was Robin and Wally Kid Flash, but now Tim is in it so that's cool.
Get my skins at:
HeroForce
my Google page

Tomato

Y'know, I actually liked their version of Dick Grayson more than I've liked any other interpretation of the character... Admittedly I'm basing most of my opinions of the character on other media like BTAS and Teen Titans (being too young to have read comics when he was still Robin), but I've always hated him in the Robin role... either he's got the pre-nightwing AGST, he's played as having mini-Batman ANGST, or he's "generic sidekick #5." That's why Benton and I will probably fight to the death over the Nightwing situation... it is my contention that the character didn't become interesting and worthwhile until AFTER assuming the role of Nightwing, despite his annoying daddy issues. Young Justice was able to give him a personality and a character that was not only more or less unique to Dick (Murs and I have discussed how it borrowed elements from Tim and Damian, but still maintains its own identity), but that brought Dick Grayson back to being the light to Batman's dark.

So yeah, I'm excited to see Tim in the series, but it wouldn't have angered me if he wasn't in there.

Also: Murs brought up the fact that the "missing" 3 league members might be KF, Kaldur'am, and Artemis, but apparently Black Lightning was in one of the shots, so at least one of them is still not League material.

BentonGrey

Quote from: Tomato on May 04, 2012, 01:25:49 AM
Y'know, I actually liked their version of Dick Grayson more than I've liked any other interpretation of the character... Admittedly I'm basing most of my opinions of the character on other media like BTAS and Teen Titans (being too young to have read comics when he was still Robin), but I've always hated him in the Robin role... either he's got the pre-nightwing AGST, he's played as having mini-Batman ANGST, or he's "generic sidekick #5." That's why Benton and I will probably fight to the death over the Nightwing situation... it is my contention that the character didn't become interesting and worthwhile until AFTER assuming the role of Nightwing, despite his annoying daddy issues. Young Justice was able to give him a personality and a character that was not only more or less unique to Dick (Murs and I have discussed how it borrowed elements from Tim and Damian, but still maintains its own identity), but that brought Dick Grayson back to being the light to Batman's dark.

How exactly did the TAS Robin NOT fulfill that roll?  He had his own personality, he had a good, mostly non-angsty relationship with Bats, and he consistently was the light-hearted counterpart for Bruce.  Until Timm and co. sold out with the totally-not-Batman:TAS return season, Robin was pretty comfortable with the Robin roll.  Haha, don't get me wrong, I have certainly enjoyed Dick's roll and characterization in this series, but for my money, the definitive Batman everything is and always will be TAS. :D

Yep, I'm willing to fight to the bitter end on the Nightwing question. ;)  I actually have read some of the comics when Dick was Robin, and he was definitely a worthwhile character.  He does have the misfortune of a terrible costume, though.  That's why the DCUG version uses the TAS costume.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

#111
Honestly, I always found Dick to be kind of boring in TAS. Robin's supposed to be a fun, showy character (Dick's a circus performer, he SHOULD be more showy than Bruce) and in TAS he was this stereotype college student, to the point where one episode had him explaining to Bruce Wayne how VR worked (I can accept Bruce not being an expert on EVERYTHING, but that scene felt like a kid was explaining to his grandparent "how the internets worked"). And before you leap to defending BTAS over TNBA, they laid out the groundwork for his eventual freakout on Bruce even in those early episodes, and the fact that they at least gave a solid resolution in TNBA to his issues ("Old Wounds") is something even DC was incapable of for the longest time.

Invariably, the problem Dick has always had in the Robin role is that he's almost the stereotypical sidekick... as long as he was just Robin, he was relegated to an inferior and unable to establish himself as a character EXCEPT in comparison to Bruce. It wasn't really until New Teen Titans that Dick started to get an identity of his own, and part of his character evolution was that he was able to grow beyond "sidekick" and become a leader of his own team (something Young Justice was able to portray MUCH better than Teen Titans), and becoming "Nightwing" was a natural part of that progression.

Podmark

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 04, 2012, 02:37:32 AMHe does have the misfortune of a terrible costume, though.  That's why the DCUG version uses the TAS costume.

And the TAS costume is basically Tim's first costume.

I like Dick, good character, fine Robin - but that was what, nearly 30 years ago. I really wish more media would get up to date.
Get my skins at:
HeroForce
my Google page

Tomato

Err... Pod? Pretty much every media incarnation of Dick Grayson post-Batman and Robin has either shown Dick as or becoming Nightwing (BTAS, B&B, Young Justice, Under the Red Hood) or has at least indicated that's where he's headed (Teen Titans, The Batman). About the only two shows where Nightwing HASN'T at least come up are "The New Frontier" (which only barely introduces him as Robin) and "Krypto the Super Dog." Hell, "Batman and Robin" is arguably suspect, since even IT portrays Dick in a costume that was pretty much a carbon copy of the Nightwing garb even before DC chose to emulate its colors.

thalaw2

Well, Mr. Tomato...you really might wanna read some old skool TT comics from when DG was leader of the team.  I agree that YJ does a great job of showing why DG doesn't want to be Batman, but they do a poor job of showing how he's a much better team leader than Bats (at least not yet).  He's almost always been his own guy and very far from a Batman lite.   
革命不会被电视转播

Tomato

Quote from: thalaw2 on May 04, 2012, 07:08:35 AM
Well, Mr. Tomato...you really might wanna read some old skool TT comics from when DG was leader of the team.  I agree that YJ does a great job of showing why DG doesn't want to be Batman, but they do a poor job of showing how he's a much better team leader than Bats (at least not yet).  He's almost always been his own guy and very far from a Batman lite.

*cough*

Quote from: Tomato on May 04, 2012, 02:51:02 AM
It wasn't really until New Teen Titans that Dick started to get an identity of his own, and part of his character evolution was that he was able to grow beyond "sidekick" and become a leader of his own team (something Young Justice was able to portray MUCH better than Teen Titans), and becoming "Nightwing" was a natural part of that progression.

I'll admit I maybe didn't phrase it spectacularly, but I DO acknowledge that Dick stepping into a leadership role as a member of the Titans is perhaps one of the greatest highlights of the character, but it's my contention that his progression on Teen Titans was an essential part of his transition to Nightwing. Now, admittedly, we haven't seen YJ's Robin take on leadership AS MUCH, but the few times he took the reigns in season 1 (M'gann's dream sequence being a big one) he's arguably a far better team lead than Kaldur is, he just wasn't quite ready to handle it full time. It's pretty heavily emphasized throughout the season that Kaldur's leadership is only temporary... he leads them because he's the most mature person on the team, but he's not really suited for it (as seen with the Clayface situation in the comics, his handling of the potential mole, etc.). In a way, because we get to see someone else in that role, it actually underlines WHY Dick Grayson is a talented leader far more than Amerime Teen Titan's "Derp, he's Robin, that means he leads, derp"

Podmark

Quote from: Tomato on May 04, 2012, 04:00:05 AM
Err... Pod? Pretty much every media incarnation of Dick Grayson post-Batman and Robin has either shown Dick as or becoming Nightwing (BTAS, B&B, Young Justice, Under the Red Hood) or has at least indicated that's where he's headed (Teen Titans, The Batman). About the only two shows where Nightwing HASN'T at least come up are "The New Frontier" (which only barely introduces him as Robin) and "Krypto the Super Dog." Hell, "Batman and Robin" is arguably suspect, since even IT portrays Dick in a costume that was pretty much a carbon copy of the Nightwing garb even before DC chose to emulate its colors.

I agree with all that but what I mean is if I ask a number of non-comics reading people who Dick Grayson is I expect the vast majority will say Robin, and most won't even know what a Nightwing is. I wish we were in a place where more people could identify Nightwing, and to do that more media needs to portray him that way. With TT and The Batman it's just an odd episode or two, easy to forget, not see, or miss the importance. Thumbs up to TAS and B&B on this front though. This is why I was very disappointed with YJ when it was first announced (I'm also a fan of the original YJ comic as well so that plays into it). First season was great bu I'm very excited to see how use Nightwing and Robin going forward.
The Bat family is my favorite part of the Bat verse.
Get my skins at:
HeroForce
my Google page

BentonGrey

#117
Quote from: Tomato on May 04, 2012, 02:51:02 AM
Honestly, I always found Dick to be kind of boring in TAS. Robin's supposed to be a fun, showy character (Dick's a circus performer, he SHOULD be more showy than Bruce) and in TAS he was this stereotype college student, to the point where one episode had him explaining to Bruce Wayne how VR worked (I can accept Bruce not being an expert on EVERYTHING, but that scene felt like a kid was explaining to his grandparent "how the internets worked"). And before you leap to defending BTAS over TNBA, they laid out the groundwork for his eventual freakout on Bruce even in those early episodes, and the fact that they at least gave a solid resolution in TNBA to his issues ("Old Wounds") is something even DC was incapable of for the longest time.

Invariably, the problem Dick has always had in the Robin role is that he's almost the stereotypical sidekick... as long as he was just Robin, he was relegated to an inferior and unable to establish himself as a character EXCEPT in comparison to Bruce. It wasn't really until New Teen Titans that Dick started to get an identity of his own, and part of his character evolution was that he was able to grow beyond "sidekick" and become a leader of his own team (something Young Justice was able to portray MUCH better than Teen Titans), and becoming "Nightwing" was a natural part of that progression.

Ehh, 'Mato I feel like you're stretching a good deal here and perhaps looking back on TAS with a jaundiced eye.  First off, Robin was a pretty showy character in comparison to Bruce.  He's often flashy and dashing, and he's almost always light-hearted, just having a good time with his crime fighting.  He treats the whole caped crusader thing like what it is for him, an adventure!  This was shown in big ways, like when he's toying with the thugs in the beginning of "Robin's Reckoning."  It's shown in small ways, like when he just casually does flips and aerial acrobatics when spying on Ivy in "Home and Garden."  He's clever, he's brave, and he's his own man.  I always loved the character in TAS, and he was pretty darn distinct. 

Second, you are looking at the show out of its context.  The one with the VR device was written in the 90's, and SOMEONE has to explain VR to the audience, because it wasn't realistic to assume they would instantly recognize the concept.  Dick knowing about it made more sense than Batman knowing it, since in the setting it was associated with video games, something that Batman's generation in the story wouldn't have been familiar with.  Was Dick a college student?  Sure, but I'd hardly say he was stereotypical.  You're attaching too much importance to practical storytelling choices.

Third, you say that the seeds for Dick's "freak out" were planted in the original TAS episodes?  Well, I think that is only really true in retrospect, with the lens that the TNBA episodes place on those events.  Several episodes deal with the relationship between Bruce and Dick, but the issues they play on are, in all of them, dealt with pretty effectively in the episodes themselves.  I'm not saying that it was a gigantic leap for the TNBA show to take him in that direction, but I am saying it was far from necessary.  It's that contentious parting, and the ugliness of character it imputed to both Batman AND Robin, that have always made me hate the Nightwing story, and by extension, the character.

I've never had a problem with Dick in the sidekick role.  It works, and works well.  The TAS stories are fantastic, and he's a great character in that setting.  With that being said though, I've got zero problem with him going off on his own and "growing up."  It's always been my plan to tell some stories with Dick as Red Robin eventually in the DCUG.  In fact, if he were Red Robin rather than Nightwing in YJ, I wouldn't mind it at all, provided there wasn't a new Robin showing up.  It's the nature of Nightwing's origin that I can't stand, and I've always found the multiple Robin thing very stupid.  There just happens happens to be this string of kids who look pretty much exactly alike and, through several series of events, all of some level of the ridiculous, end up being taken on and trained by Bruce?  It just gets silly after a point.  That kind of artifact of the serial, unplanned nature of comics is a pretty good example of the kind of stupid concept I created the DCUG to excise. 

Let me be clear.  I really enjoy the way YJ has portrayed Dick.  It's fun, and it works for me because he's a younger character than he was in TAS.  This could be the same kid, really, as he's yet to grow up and become the more confident, capable man we see in the ideal Bat-series.  ;)  If you enjoy it, that's great.  I've got no problem with this show.  It's good, and I'm watching it.  I do think, however, that you're seeing this new show's portrayal of Dick as being better, at least in part, because we get to see more of him than we did in most of the TAS episodes.  He's at the center of a good number of the stories, and thus we get to know him better in a shorter time frame.  Still, for my money TAS did more with and for the character than this show has so far, and with the economy of time and storytelling that is remarkable in Timm's shows.

God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

thalaw2

Quote from: Tomato on May 04, 2012, 08:16:48 AM
Quote from: thalaw2 on May 04, 2012, 07:08:35 AM
Well, Mr. Tomato...you really might wanna read some old skool TT comics from when DG was leader of the team.  I agree that YJ does a great job of showing why DG doesn't want to be Batman, but they do a poor job of showing how he's a much better team leader than Bats (at least not yet).  He's almost always been his own guy and very far from a Batman lite.

*cough*

Quote from: Tomato on May 04, 2012, 02:51:02 AM
It wasn't really until New Teen Titans that Dick started to get an identity of his own, and part of his character evolution was that he was able to grow beyond "sidekick" and become a leader of his own team (something Young Justice was able to portray MUCH better than Teen Titans), and becoming "Nightwing" was a natural part of that progression.

I'll admit I maybe didn't phrase it spectacularly, but I DO acknowledge that Dick stepping into a leadership role as a member of the Titans is perhaps one of the greatest highlights of the character, but it's my contention that his progression on Teen Titans was an essential part of his transition to Nightwing. Now, admittedly, we haven't seen YJ's Robin take on leadership AS MUCH, but the few times he took the reigns in season 1 (M'gann's dream sequence being a big one) he's arguably a far better team lead than Kaldur is, he just wasn't quite ready to handle it full time. It's pretty heavily emphasized throughout the season that Kaldur's leadership is only temporary... he leads them because he's the most mature person on the team, but he's not really suited for it (as seen with the Clayface situation in the comics, his handling of the potential mole, etc.). In a way, because we get to see someone else in that role, it actually underlines WHY Dick Grayson is a talented leader far more than Amerime Teen Titan's "Derp, he's Robin, that means he leads, derp"

My bad.....
革命不会被电视转播

Tomato

#119
Benton, I'm not going to go into the timmverse stuff with you, except to say that I do disagree with you on quite a lot here... I've already explained that I feel like you and several others are looking at the old Timm cartoons through rose colored glasses and exaggerating the good over the bad(Similarly, but not as exaggeratedly, as TUE's obsession with MOTU when the original show was only two steps above garbage), and that's not going to change because you wax poetic about it. I agree that the villains here are not nearly as fun, interesting, or innovative as the ones in EMH or the Timm shows, but otherwise I personally relate to the writing and storytelling methods of Young Justice better. I acknowledge we have a differing opinion here, and am getting really tired of harping on it.

Now, Nightwing. I'm just going to say it: you're being a stubborn fool on that point and the saddest thing is, you're a smart enough guy to know it. Changing the name of the character to "Red Robin" is meaningless and ultimately idiotic. I know you see the Nightwing persona as a representation of his baggage with Bruce, but pretty much everyone else sees Nightwing as EXACTLY what you're talking about: Dick assuming his own identity as an adult. You can make Dick Nightwing WITHOUT going into the ZOMG DRAMA that was introduced in the comics... even TNBA was mostly mild and the entire issue Dick had was shown to be more or less a misunderstanding. Other adaptations, including B&B of all things, were able to present that transition as a mostly positive one. We've seen nothing in YJ so far to indicate that Dick had any sort of major falling out with Batman or that any ANGST happened, just that he grew up and assumed a new role.

Dick Grayson is Nightwing. Period.

Now, Tim. I've explained before that Tim is my favorite version of Robin, but I don't think I've explained WHY. The main reason I like Tim in the Robin role, over pretty much anyone else to have used the persona, is that Tim genuinely WANTED to take up that mantle specifically. Dick assumed the role of Robin during his childhood, and even if there hadn't been any issues with Bruce he still would likely have set the role aside for that very reason just as a natural part of his coming of age (again, changing his name to "Red Robin" is worthless in this context, because he's NOT setting aside his childhood at all if he just adds "Red" to the name).

Contrast that with Tim: Here's a kid who's saw Dick Grayson's origin story, figured out his and Bruce's identities through some kind of photographic memory, and who became Robin because he fundamentally understood that there needed to be a light to Batman's dark. Unlike Dick, who eventually HAD to set aside the mantle of Robin as a remnant of his childhood, Tim genuinely WANTED the role: He didn't have brutally murdered parents, he didn't have a ton of ANGST like Bruce, he just wanted to help people. That in and of himself is almost a BETTER contrast to Bruce's origin and backstory than Dick EVER was, because Dick's origin is fundamentally just as dark as Bruce's was... darker, in some respects. In many ways, Tim was the Anti-DG... whereas Dick Grayson was probably a more gifted athlete and natural leader than Bruce was, Tim came into those roles unnaturally... but where Tim shines, as a character, is that he's SMART, probably more-so than even Bruce. He figured out Bruce's secret identity as a CHILD, something supposedly incredibly intelligent adults such as Riddler haven't really managed to do.

Now, to put things in a broader context, I also didn't mind Tim's transition to the Red Robin role pre-reboot. As I said, DG almost HAD to set aside the Robin role, but Tim never really wanted to... He was perfectly content staying Robin into his adulthood. But like Dick, Tim needed to set aside the role of a child, and the introduction of Damian (who I do enjoy as a character but who I don't think really fills the role of a Robin to Bruce's Batman) provided the necessary push to get him moving in that direction. And again, unlike DG, who had a need to set aside the Robin role entirely, Tim taking on the role of Red Robin was natural: He didn't need to set aside the role of Robin entirely, he just needed to take it on in a more adult and distinct manner.

So yeah, I'm not going to lie, I'm actually offended by your flippant dismissal of Tim as a character. Angry, even. You may want to shut your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that life doesn't move on and your Robin is still around and blah blah blah, but GDI, Tim Drake was MY Robin, and I'm getting really tired of you taking a dump on him all the time.