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Author Topic: something big  (Read 29439 times)

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2011, 08:30:37 PM »
...

Bearded, I think you're taking the right approach, building in the FF characters and such.  I've got a couple of questions for you, just to satisfy my own curiosity.  I hope you don't mind. 

1) You said that the melee is working pretty well.  Is there a dodge function or the possibility of one?  I love the gameplay in MUA, but I feel like we might lose a bit of what FF had if characters don't have a chance to dodge attacks.  I suppose just having speed function as both dodge and ground-speed could simulate this to a degree, though.
that's a good idea. for the player controllable, pressing the run button from standstill functions fairly well, with a movement key pressed at the same time. for the ally ai, it would have to be scripted in, with a chance based on dex, or skills.
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2) What kinds of maps are available?  Are there pre-made maps that could be adapted to FF? 
maps are crafted by hand in the editor, but are easily made and can be exported as an 'asset' called map.prefab that can be imported into any level. anything can be exported as a prefab, any combination of things. like, all the skins, powers, meshes, and sounds of minute_man.
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3) How destructible are the environments in this game?  Can objects be interacted with? 
i just imported an asset to my player (minute_man.prefab) called push_bodies that lets me push the ko'ed oppenents out of my way instead of bouncing off of them. any object can be coded to respond to this, you could push crates, rocks, anything. i don't have any code to pick up objects yet.
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4) Forgive the ignorance of this question, but do you think it will be possible to port over some of the attributes and such?  If this game can use a Python-like scripting language, could parts of FFX be used in it?
they would have to be recoded by hand, unless someone made a converter, like python to boo. slightly different code, but based on basic. if then statements and things like that.
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So, color me very interested Bearded.
i have nearly finished my minuteman level. i'm going to use the ff resources for ambiance and practice, and release my levels to ppl here that are interested or want to help, or beta test. no general release for now.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 08:40:51 PM by bearded »

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2011, 08:35:50 PM »
... if we could rig up a game that FF content can be imported to.  Sadly, without something as Benton-friendly as EZScript I'll be pretty much on the bench for this one.  If we could find a way to put together a functional co-op Rumble Room type feature and a heroeditor, this could really be amazing.  It looks like Bearded is well on the way to getting the basic gameplay set.
...
after i get some powers and basic controls set, i'm going to make a rumble level, that is my main goal. the heroeditor would be extremely flexible, based on the .prefab, pretty much letting the player control the input to the prefabs. that means that instead of hard coded heroes, you would be able to level up any character as you wanted, with level maker suggestions for advancement. give bullet an el diablo flame throw power. i'm thinking of ideas for character redesigns being part of the campaign as well. but this is getting into game design area again.

i don't want to say anything uncouth about people i don't really know, so, i'll mostly just say i won't be joining the unity forums, for help or anything else. at best, they seem a bit cut throat. as far as i'm concerned, this project is just for us, and anyone that wants to join our forum.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 08:38:18 PM by bearded »

Offline spydermann93

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Re: something big
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2011, 09:09:41 PM »
This is looking very promising, bearded!

But just a suggestion: I do like your idea of designing characters in the CoH/CoV fashion, but I think (if this is possible for you or whoever wants to work on this) that players should also be able to a) download meshes of other characters much like we do now and, more importantly, b) design your own powers. That is what I love about FF so much, the great variety in customization of powers and the fact that you aren't restricted to defined power-sets (i.e. City of Heroes) or pseudo-power-sets (i.e. Champions Online).

But that is just my humble opinion. It's your decision ultimately, and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors :)

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2011, 11:50:23 PM »
i've got a fully playable level. short, about ten minutes of play. anybody want to playtest it for me?

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: something big
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2011, 11:52:30 PM »
Well, if you'll let me know how I can get my hands on this "Unity" thing, then yes!
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Offline spydermann93

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Re: something big
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2011, 12:26:01 AM »
I wish I could, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to do so.

Sorry :(

Offline area34

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Re: something big
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2011, 01:29:47 AM »
If you want to send it my way I have time tomorrow to do some testing.

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: something big
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2011, 02:38:52 AM »
Did you get your Bumpmap file taken care of? If not, what format do you need it in? I'll take a look at Tommyboy's Bumpmapped meshes to see how it's done. Is your Minute_Man mesh already set up for it?

Offline GogglesPizanno

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Re: something big
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2011, 05:37:52 AM »
i've got a fully playable level. short, about ten minutes of play. anybody want to playtest it for me?

I'm game for takin it through a spin....

Offline Epimethee

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Re: something big
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2011, 12:31:48 PM »
Unity seems suite interesting. There are annoying limitations with the free version, of course, but if this gets off, we could do a Kickstarter to raise the $1500 for one prqo license.

The flight control system you envision sounds great, btw, Bearded.
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Offline Epimethee

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Re: something big
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2011, 12:48:25 PM »
Quote from: BentonGrey link=topic=54778.msg740387#msg740387
If this game can use a Python-like scripting language, could parts of FFX be used in it?
it should mostly be rewritten from scratch, using some of the existing codebase for inspiration, I think. FFX is a hack, as FF didn't offer all that many hooks in the system. A VERY large portion of the FFX code is only there to work around these limitations. Additionnally, the codebase isn't really clean or modular.

However, the Unity code should allow much more, much more easily. I haven't the time to collaborate on this nearly as much as I'd want (many important RL issues), but I'll try to have a look FWIW.

Shame about the Unity forums, though.
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Offline area34

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Re: something big
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2011, 04:19:56 PM »
Okay, I played it immediately last night (couldn't wait) after you sent me the link. So these will be my initial thoughts after playing for about a half hour. I'm putting it here so other testers can compare notes. For starters, I hope that fact I'm about to list the negatives doesn't give the wrong impression. I know from my college days doing programming that I prefered being told what needed work over just telling me I did great (which you have).

*The very first thing that I noticed was the walk/run doesn't trigger at the same rate as movement. It gives the look that your guy is sliding then running. I'm not sure if he begins with the walk animation and then transfers to the run and it's so fast the animation never gets to begin fully? It's not huge but is really noticeable when your just tapping the forward key.

*I would have the character default to walk speed then have the player trigger running. Maybe hold down shift, double press forward, whatever. Platform hopping would be easier if I could walk.

*I'm not loving the jumping. Right now MM feels like he has boot jets even with just tapping the jump key. There is an extra landing animation he does that really slows down the fall. So you never just land. You have a controlled decent (if that makes sense). It really makes jumping feel sluggish. I don't know if there is some way to set up a jump or a flight set of animations- so that one skips that step. ***edited to add*** Looking at the animations available in CTool I think it's an issue with the actual keyframes. If possible maybe speed up the animations for regular jump?

*Just noticed while typing this that MM is going all Ace Ventura in the window. The character is Idle and he is pelvic thrusting. It looks like the start of the knockback animation that then resets. Maybe he needs an idle animation? I dunno how it's set up. If it's a bug or that if you haven't attached an animation yet or it just doesn't like being tabbed out of. But it is funny :D

*When using the bouncing pad things to get around you can't trigger flight/glide while in the air. For non flying characters it's not a problem but when you expect to be able to fly that could be a problem (kinda gives an unfair advantage to flyers though).

*Fighting seems really hard so far. I'm not sure if just touching the lost in space robot triggers the knockback or if he is constantly swinging at me. Whatever it is he keeps bumping me off the ledges.

So, so far, I haven't noticed any massive bugs or had anything that crashed me out. Everything at this point just seems like tweaks that need to be done the game-play engine.

In short, it rocks.

Offline area34

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Re: something big
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2011, 04:27:35 PM »
And now two non-testing questions...
How hard is it to import a characters? There exists a ton of meshes and skopes and the list keeps on growing. A lot of us skinners customize the meshes so how much effort is involved to load in new content?
and
Is there a maximum limit to the amount of characters? Ctool/FF always had a limit and I for one always wished I could have all the content loaded at the same time. Not just for gameplay either. Having the ability to scroll through everything would make skoping easier. To have a Ctool like program with no max would be sweet and useful.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2011, 12:42:12 AM »
busy weekend, i'll respond to everything monday, thanks for the responses and pm's! goggle's i'll get you a copy then also.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2011, 02:29:53 AM »
have to comment on the ace ventura, that's funny. he is supposed to have an idle already, based on the idle_2 animation, standing and breathing. he doesn't do that?

Offline area34

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Re: something big
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2011, 06:47:47 PM »
His idle animation seems to only go crazy if you play in windowed mode. If I change window focus and then come back he does it until I move him. It's not a biggie.

From continued playing the only thing new I have to add is that walking up inclines can be a problem. I think it's more of a map issue than anything else. If the lip of the disks are to high your guy gets stuck rather then just walking up it. Might be a problem in city maps if the curbs are to high.

Offline cmdrkoenig67

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Re: something big
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2011, 03:30:00 AM »
BTW...Black Jack in  :ffvstr: already has a bump map in his skin folder, but I don't think the Irrational folks activated it.

Dana

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2011, 10:43:47 AM »
Quote from: BentonGrey link=topic=54778.msg740387#msg740387
If this game can use a Python-like scripting language, could parts of FFX be used in it?
it should mostly be rewritten from scratch, using some of the existing codebase for inspiration, I think. FFX is a hack, as FF didn't offer all that many hooks in the system. A VERY large portion of the FFX code is only there to work around these limitations. Additionnally, the codebase isn't really clean or modular.

However, the Unity code should allow much more, much more easily. I haven't the time to collaborate on this nearly as much as I'd want (many important RL issues), but I'll try to have a look FWIW.

Shame about the Unity forums, though.
anytime you, or anyone else wants my source, let me know.
...
*The very first thing that I noticed was the walk/run doesn't trigger at the same rate as movement. It gives the look that your guy is sliding then running. I'm not sure if he begins with the walk animation and then transfers to the run and it's so fast the animation never gets to begin fully? It's not huge but is really noticeable when your just tapping the forward key.

*I would have the character default to walk speed then have the player trigger running. Maybe hold down shift, double press forward, whatever. Platform hopping would be easier if I could walk.
i use a game pad, xbox style for the pc, and it really gives a lot more control. all of this is coded anyway, should be an easy fix to change and you are correct, it starts with a walk that turns into a run in .3 seconds. so, i think you lose that .3 everytime you press forward. if i remove the walk animation and change the run to a walk. also, the 3 button on my controller goes autopmatically to a run. also, the 1 key switches the camera to behind your back. i'm thinking of giving fps mouse camera control, would that work?
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*I'm not loving the jumping. Right now MM feels like he has boot jets even with just tapping the jump key. There is an extra landing animation he does that really slows down the fall. So you never just land. You have a controlled decent (if that makes sense). It really makes jumping feel sluggish. I don't know if there is some way to set up a jump or a flight set of animations- so that one skips that step. ***edited to add*** Looking at the animations available in CTool I think it's an issue with the actual keyframes. If possible maybe speed up the animations for regular jump?
he does have boot jets in this version! are the flames at his feet not showing in your copy? i think i can change the animations to the last second of his jump keyframe and see if that works better.
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...
*When using the bouncing pad things to get around you can't trigger flight/glide while in the air. For non flying characters it's not a problem but when you expect to be able to fly that could be a problem (kinda gives an unfair advantage to flyers though).
i code thing again, easily adapted to different purposes.
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*Fighting seems really hard so far. I'm not sure if just touching the lost in space robot triggers the knockback or if he is constantly swinging at me. Whatever it is he keeps bumping me off the ledges.
the fighting is something i haven't focused on much yet.  the robot ai is very simplistic. if you jump over him while he is charging you, he will keep going in the same direction and you can swing at his back.
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So, so far, I haven't noticed any massive bugs or had anything that crashed me out. Everything at this point just seems like tweaks that need to be done the game-play engine.
a lot of my tweaks are very subtle and i wonder if they are noticed. it took me about half a day to get his footsteps in right! can you hear his footsteps? also, small dustclouds around his feet when he runs, lands or attacks.
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In short, it rocks.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: something big
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2011, 02:48:37 PM »
To further the discussion, here are the comments I sent Bearded via PM:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
God Bless
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Offline Amazo Version 2.2

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Re: something big
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2011, 09:45:26 PM »
if you dont mind me asking, is thie plan to make something new, or to make this an  :ff: based game? are you planning on making something completely new like tommyboy and alex were doing? or is this meant to be like an ff3?
For anyone, and everyone, who has ever done anything to improve the FF/FFvs3R gaming experience, I want to say thank you. Life is so short, and you have all brought me so much joy. I hope that one day, I am somehow able to return the kindness and generosity that all of you have shown.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2011, 10:22:29 PM »
i plan on making a game engine that supports superheroic type characters, and (with permission from each artist) the ability to simply plug in past works of art. so far, i'm finding that the best way to do that is make some generic mesh types, male basic and so on, and use the engine to add premade parts to it, importing nif files is nearly impossible. so the main resource would be the skins made.
i'm going to make this totally open source, so anyone that wants can create content of any sort for it. if it takes off, i am hoping there will be a way to keep track of singular 'updates', so coding efforts aren't duplicated. but that's getting ahead of myself. i'm still learning unity. i am using the ff characters as a base. if someone wanted to make a story with them, that's even better, as far as ff3 might be concerned.
my main goal is to make a mua type game, but with scripting and the source, it could be made into anything, tactical, strategy, even turn based rpg.

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: something big
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2011, 11:00:14 PM »
i plan on making a game engine that supports superheroic type characters, and (with permission from each artist) the ability to simply plug in past works of art. so far, i'm finding that the best way to do that is make some generic mesh types, male basic and so on, and use the engine to add premade parts to it, importing nif files is nearly impossible. so the main resource would be the skins made.

If you need a few skins created for your base meshes, I'd be willing to help.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2011, 10:17:57 AM »
here is my tentative hope for a team, based on messages sent:
gogglespiano, coder and camera control
cyber burn, project skinner
hoss, model parts for the mesh templates
bentongrey, playtester, story and plot (not mentioned, but would you consider it?)
area34, playtester

if you don't want your name on this list, let me know. and if you want in, it's an open project, anyone is welcome! i just hope to maintain coordination, so we don't duplicate our efforts.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2011, 10:20:30 AM »
i'm a bit confused about the controls. on my end, i feel he handles perfectly. but i am using a game pad. but when i try the keyboard it doesn't seem much different. does anyone have a game pad for pc? (how fun would this be with an actual joystick?) i do want the camera to be a little free roving, i hate looking at the back of laura croft's head.
i am thinking about a roguestyle melee. you run into the bad guy and the punch animation plays automatically.
here is cyber burn's mm bump map!


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i'm wondering if the sluggish play might come from system specs? can you try toning down the resolution and graphics setting on the demo?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:15:17 PM by bearded »

Offline GogglesPizanno

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Re: something big
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2011, 07:03:44 PM »
While these complaints below sound critical, understand that a lot of my issue comes form being primarily a PC gamer, and me not having a lot of love for console like controls. All my issues could equally be leveled on games like Prince of Persia etc.. to some degree. Other people who do a lot of console gaming may feel right at home like you do. For all the little quirks I have, this really is quite an accomplishment and works really well for a first showing.  :thumbup:

The sluggishness I think comes form the way the walk/run animations in handled via the "ramp up." ie. You start walking and then change to running. It feels like owning an old car that just doesn't have any get up and go. Every time I stop to adjust or try and reorient the camera (especially on the jumping parts), I feel like I have to wait for a few seconds for minute man to rev back up again.

Now, you've implemented the "console" like control scheme pretty decently, but like i said, I just really don't like console controls on PC games. I find them unwieldy and confusing, and it takes me a lot of trial and error to get the character moved or pointed where i want them to go. Couple that with the walk/run issue from above, and it makes the whole thing feel slightly unresponsive, or inaccurate.

My preferred method of control in 3rd person on PC is in the mold of Hitman or the Witcher where the camera is locked behind the character (looking at the back of their head  :P), and moving the mouse rotates the facing direction of the character/camera (similar to FPS). Then using "w" or whatever is mapped to forward will move the character in the direction they are facing. The left and right direction keys work more like a strafe or side to side movement. This way the camera is always facing the same direction the character is. I don't mind looking at the back of someones head if i feel like I can easily get the character to go where I want them to go.

Ultimately I think the control issue is going to come down to implementing it the way you want for the type of game you are trying to do. There is no way for you to address every issue or preference people have. I think if you are going to go the route of console controls, the two big things you need to address initially are the responsiveness of the character when you move him, and slightly more controllable camera (either through user input such as the mouse or coding logic to automatically reorient it to some default position as the character moves). Just something so people can adjust the view to see parts of the level that might otherwise be obscured or confusing.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2011, 07:10:57 PM »
the b button on the game pad goes automatically into a run. and the a button puts the camera behind the head, no matter your facing. i'm wondering if there might be a way to use the mouse and click in the environment, and partially use the ai to find the path. then use edge of screen scrolling for the camera.
if we can get the code for both systems, it could be set up in game options by the player.
i'm also thinking about having a 'talking head' style cam up at all times in place of the portrait.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 07:13:33 PM by bearded »

Offline Amazo Version 2.2

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Re: something big
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2011, 08:54:53 PM »
i'm sorry for all the questions, i'm hust really curios and interested.

1. do you need to download somesort of unity software or program in order to play this, or is it a selfcontained game?

2. will you be using irrationals meshes for the male basic, or will you be creating your own?

3. have any of the artists on the forums given permission to use there base skins? or work in general?
For anyone, and everyone, who has ever done anything to improve the FF/FFvs3R gaming experience, I want to say thank you. Life is so short, and you have all brought me so much joy. I hope that one day, I am somehow able to return the kindness and generosity that all of you have shown.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2011, 09:20:59 PM »
i'm sorry for all the questions, i'm hust really curios and interested.

1. do you need to download somesort of unity software or program in order to play this, or is it a selfcontained game?
complete standalone executable.
Quote
2. will you be using irrationals meshes for the male basic, or will you be creating your own?
i'm not sure what the end result will be, i'm using ff meshes to learn unity right now. a male basic type, to be sure. i want the game itself to allow for 'skoping' parts on, and those parts will be custom made. so, a male basic base, with templates to choose from, like dark hero, or super generic, and then customization.
Quote
3. have any of the artists on the forums given permission to use there base skins? or work in general?
i don't think it's gotten quite big enough to be noticed by the artists yet. altho i do have a completely playable level if anyone else wants to test it for me.

Offline bearded

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Re: something big
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2011, 08:26:26 PM »


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Offline Amazo Version 2.2

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Re: something big
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2011, 09:47:06 PM »
that bumpmap has a great look to it. it really adds depth to the mesh. also, thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions.
For anyone, and everyone, who has ever done anything to improve the FF/FFvs3R gaming experience, I want to say thank you. Life is so short, and you have all brought me so much joy. I hope that one day, I am somehow able to return the kindness and generosity that all of you have shown.