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Author Topic: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire  (Read 5337 times)

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2012, 01:56:43 AM »
Well once in a while, they manage to get someone for a DC movie who knows what he's doing and the film turns out well, like Nolan with Batman.  I can only conclude that they only manage that through sheer random luck, given how things turn out the rest of the time.

Marvel, on the other hand, has its act together and has not gotten a dud on any of its films since taking control of them in spite of many different writers and directors involved.  Sure, some of the films are better than others, but all of them are at least good, and most of them are excellent.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2012, 02:38:38 AM »
Let's look at dc's track record since the reboot of the comic movie genre(not necessarily in any order)

Batman Begins- good movie, with some minor flaws. Decent reboot.
Catwoman- UGH
Superman Returns- failed on so many levels I can't even begin to list them all.
The Dark Knight- One of the best batman films, but still had a few minor problems with pacing and the like. Still in the top 10 comic films.
Watchmen- followed the comic almost too closely, so the changes they did make were even more jarring. Commercial failure.
Green Lantern- Decent, but incredibly flawed. No clear direction, piss poor villains, total mess of an adaption.
Dark Knight Rises- Better than Begins, not as good as TDK.

So for every good movie dc has given us, we have a bad one to contend with. And that's not even taking into account the fact that all 3 of the good movies were made by the same people. Not a track record that inspires confidence

Offline Previsionary

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2012, 03:46:21 AM »
I don't know why you guys are complaining! Jonah Hex was the best DC movie I've ever seen!* DC should make their next movie like that. It'd be a definite hit and bury The Avengers! I don't know why it was never mentioned in the lists some of you just threw together.

*Has never seen Jonah Hex, thank the heavens!
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2012, 05:50:55 AM »
I thought of it, but for some reason while I was making the list I couldn't remember for sure if that was dc or marvel, so I just left it off.

Either way, it just reinforces dc's poor track record, but they don't really need Hex to prove they don't know what they're doing.

Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2012, 08:09:39 AM »
Watchmen- followed the comic almost too closely, so the changes they did make were even more jarring. Commercial failure.

I wouldn't say failure there. Disappointment, maybe, but was definitely a fair margin from a box office failure.

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2012, 12:24:23 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the Watchmen should be rated as being in the top 5 of Superhero movies?

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2012, 12:29:53 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the Watchmen should be rated as being in the top 5 of Superhero movies?

As I said elsewhere, I actually thought it was a pretty fantastic adaptation, all things considered.  However, the story itself is one of which I'm not overly fond.  It's brilliant but painful.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2012, 12:55:06 AM »
My point was, it didn't exactly make any impact outside of the comic fan community. Most non comic nerds I know didn't watch it, or it had so little impact that they don't really remember it. And even the fans weren't thrilled at the time because of the whole "Alan Moore hates it so I hate it on principle too!" thing.

Personally, I thought it was decent, and it was probably the purest adaptation of any comic we've seen outside of animated films. But between the gratuitous violence, and the overt nudity, it's also one I've been reluctant to go buy.

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2012, 01:35:52 AM »
The Watchmen is not a traditional superhero film romp, which is what moviegoers expect to see.  It was a pretty good adaptation, from what I hear (I dislike the whole concept and could even force myself to read the book) but exactly the kind of thing unsuitable for a major blockbuster.  I think because of the subject material, it doesn't really count as far as the good/bad superhero movie list.

Which still leaves a pretty bad record for DC.

I was also thinking that the reverse formula could be disastrous, now that I ponder it a bit more, or at least a recipe for not repeating Avengers success.  Avengers was the killer moneymaker it was not only because it is a fantastic superhero film (which it certainly is) but because it offers something for everyone.  People who like Hulk could go see hulk, people who prefer Iron Man could see him, families could bring their kinds, superhero fanboys could bring their non fan girlfriends and so on.  Building the franchise on hero at a time and putting them together had the side effect of creating several different groups of fans of the various movies, all of whom wanted to watching the Avengers.

If you start with the team movie first, you risk losing that.  Of course, Superman Batman, and Wonder Woman are well enough known that it may still have a chance, but putting it up against Avengers 2 would definitely be a mistake.
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Offline BWPS

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2012, 02:18:30 AM »
Batman best movie series since Star Wars, so. Yknow, that's a thing DC did. But that's always been a Batman away from what they planned to be a DC movie U.

Green Lantern I feel like was their first true attempt to reboot the comic book movie and go to the standards of Marvel's rapidly swelling filmmaking pride. They really couldn't have wasted more money, what a crap, belongs on MST3K. The thing is, I don't think the universe in there is worthless though, and even Ryan Reynolds returning won't ruin a team movie by itself.

They will try to apply Zack Snyder's skills but forced Nolan's hand into the Superman reboot. I mean to me it sounds like a recipe for success since WB is realizing they need to let creatives create in this quality movie age, but Superman's a hard sell to idiots these days who don't like how awesome he is. Another failure and this time with no more Batman movies to summon 5-20 dollars from everyone in the country is going to be bad for business. I don't see a JLA movie working without this being a success. And I expect it to be a success, though you can see how hyped I got over Green Lantern during the trailer and that was like a rough in diamonds that year.

But if they're putting top talent on Superman, why not do the same for Flash and Wonder Woman? I mean WW the character herself needs a complete and total reboot but they could find a group to make her the coolest thing on the screen so even the three fans of the current Wonder Woman would welcome the change.

WB needs to hire the interested people who have at least made one good movie, and back off because their poison touch is avoidable. I'll give the wealthy millionaires who have been working in this industry for decades more of my neck-bearded sage advice after I see Man of Steel and judge how valuable that is based on how tired I am when I go see it in the theater.
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2012, 02:40:55 AM »
Of course the Batman movies were excellent.  That was a result of Nolan.  DC movies are good when they happen to get directors and writers who can do the characters and know the material, but they seem to hit that randomly on that, rather than having any competence at engineering it.
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Offline Mr. Hamrick

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2012, 03:41:00 AM »
Okay, I'm going to go against the grain a wee bit here.  I think it's a GREAT idea to use a "Justice League" movie as a launching point for non-Batman and non-Superman franchises. 

There have been at least three attempts at either a Wonder Woman film or TV series since 2005.  Whedon's project, the horrid TV series pilot and a script that was sold that Warner Brothers bought with no real intent of filming.  There is barely interest in the Wonder Woman comic so I don't think any stand alone film with her in it is going to sell right now.  It's weird but for WW to be one of DC's "big three" she is treated like a fourth stringer sometimes.   The only place she has consistently done well and garnered attention is in the JLA cartoon.  Her DC direct to DVD animated film helped her some but it was stiill not the seller than the JLA movies were or the Superman and Batman related movies.

And Green Lantern was at best a mediocre project.  However, I refuse to blame Ryan Reynolds for the crappy script and bad direction. If you put Reynolds in there with a good script and proper direction for playing Hal Jordan then he will surprise you.  I am confident on this.  I've seen the guy work on set.  I've worked with (indirectly) him on set.  He is a very directable actor and generally stays to the script.

The Flash is the only character out of the bunch who might be able to draw an audience in a film.  However, with DC/WB's track record with their live action films, it's a big risk.  The same goes for Aquaman who, despite Benton's love for him, is barely taken seriously outside of the appearance on Smallville (that is saying something, sadly).  Martian Manhunter is a supporting character, period.  Cyborg is again barely known to people outside of Smallville and honestly could be a supporting character.

So DC makes one film with a core group of heroes.  Batman, Superman, GL, Flash, and Wonder Woman with brief appearances by Martian Manhunter and Cyborg.   I am leaving Aquaman out for good reason.  There were plans at once point for an Aquaman film with Leonardo DiCaprio producing.  However, I don't see that film happening any time soon.   However, it is plausible that he might be added in some capacity. 

From that core group, Batman and Superman already have franchises.  The GL franchise is barely off the ground because of the bad script and directing on the first film.  The aim, business wise, would be to launch two more franchises out of it and save the GL franchise. 

Of course to do this, it will depend a great deal on the script, the directing, and the casting.

Offline Talavar

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2012, 01:43:00 PM »
I agree that starting with a Justice League film is a great way to launch numerous potential franchises; I just lack faith in Warner Bros. ability to get a great script, director and cast.  Man of Steel has a lot riding on it - both the relaunch of a Superman film franchise, but also demonstrating whether Warner Bros has the ability to make any superheroes work other than Batman.

Offline Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2012, 03:50:56 PM »
The problem, Hamrick, is that pulling off a movie with an ensemble cast like the Justice League is hard enough without having to basically build up as many as 6 spin off franchises from that film. You have to cast actors that are perfect not only within the ensemble of the movie, but who have the talent to hold up a solo franchise as well. You have to balance screen time on a razors edge, making sure each character leaves enough of an impression on the audience that they will go see all the character's solo films. You have to introduce characters with VASTLY different origins, power sets, and personalities. And above all, you have to make a movie that is pretty freaking amazing in order to get a potential audience for any of the solo films.

Yes, this idea potentially has merit. If this were the marvel studios films, and we'd only gotten to see Iron Man or Captain America prior to the Avengers movie, I could see audiences wanting to go out and see solo movies with the other Avengers. Characters who weren't as well known by the public, like Thor, Hawkeye, or Black Widow, would then have more relevancy when it came time for their solo films. But this isn't Marvel Studios. It's Warner Brothers. And from what we've seen in the last decade, without Chris Nolan, they can't make a great superhero movie to save their lives.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2012, 04:48:14 PM »
Of course the Batman movies were excellent.  That was a result of Nolan.  DC movies are good when they happen to get directors and writers who can do the characters and know the material, but they seem to hit that randomly on that, rather than having any competence at engineering it.

You know, I'd love to see Nolan make another Batman movie.  Begins was great.  It's a shame he never made any more.

Yeah, WB is trying to do this because they've pretty conclusively proven that they lack the will and the organizational ability to do what Marvel has done, however, those same faults likely doom this project before it even begins.  I'd love to be proven wrong, but without a competent hand at the helm, and what's more, one that is attached to a head and heart that knows and cares about the characters at stake, even if the initial movie defies the odds and is fantastic, it's likely to fall apart shortly thereafter. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 04:49:50 PM by BentonGrey »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2012, 05:36:53 PM »
You know, I'd love to see Nolan make another Batman movie.  Begins was great.  It's a shame he never made any more.

Benton... We've discussed this. TDK is not like Twilight, you can't just ignore it exists until the stupid tweens get tired of it and move on. Dark Knight was actually a great movie, regardless of how you feel about its treatment of characters (though for the record, I LOVED how it treated my fav batman villain, so... >P)

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2012, 06:46:06 PM »
Haha!  That's not what I was going for, 'Mato, but that was funny.  I was actually implying that neither it nor its sequel were really Batman films.  Nolan didn't really want to make Batman films.  He wanted to make very specific films, and they just happen to have Batman in them.
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Offline steamteck

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2012, 03:10:50 AM »
Haha!  That's not what I was going for, 'Mato, but that was funny.  I was actually implying that neither it nor its sequel were really Batman films.  Nolan didn't really want to make Batman films.  He wanted to make very specific films, and they just happen to have Batman in them.

Your assessment seems spot on to me.  Then again, the only one I liked was Batman Begins but I won't start my rant again. All can relax. Nolan's involvement with Superman actually has me really nervous.

Offline kaflinkle_rises

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2012, 08:52:47 AM »
There may be a time factor to consider as well. By the time the individual character films have been released and then the JL film is then produced, the public's infactuation with Super Heroes may have gone. These films are riding high at the moment but it's a fad that will come to an end. Vampires were all the thing a while back, vampires on the big screen, vampires on the TV, vampires everywhere but now, apart from the Twilight films, interest has gone. I can only assume that this will hapen with the superhero films as well.

DC/WB may miss the boat....

Offline BWPS

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 10:42:31 AM »
Haha!  That's not what I was going for, 'Mato, but that was funny.  I was actually implying that neither it nor its sequel were really Batman films.  Nolan didn't really want to make Batman films.  He wanted to make very specific films, and they just happen to have Batman in them.

I'm not saying you should like them. I mean, you should, they're the best, but not really the point.

But not being Batman movies doesn't make sense to me, Batman is the main character, the films center around his role in the city. They're named after him.
He doesn't act much differently than many other well-known incarnations. So how is it not a Batman movie? Because the camera followed other characters for too long?

"The way Batman is" isn't set in stone very much and hasn't been since they changed the original detective to the zoinks-y Adam West type. Millionaire by day, Batsuit, gadgets, punching crazy people, etc. It's all there.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »
Ok, seriously, this is getting silly.

While I don't agree with Benton on this, I actually DO see where he's coming from. Of any adaptation we've seen of Batman, the Nolan films are about as far removed from the original comics as it can be while still maintaining just enough so that you can say "it's technically a batman movie." Entire chunks of the mythology and character of Batman are not only just absent from the Batman films, but just plain can't exist in that world. Hell, well over half his rogues gallery can't even fit in the same world without heavily twisting and manipulating their core characteristics to fit Nolan's world.

Batman is about more then just some rich guy with some cool martial arts training and fancy gadgets. In every single other incarnation of the character, he's a guy who relies on his brain to solve crimes as much as his fancy toys (and that's been true from Adam West to Paul Dini). But in Nolans Batman, name one time he did any detective work or planned tactics or did anything that wasn't just him relying on some tech or some outside help or a cell phone sonar nonsense.

He's also a man driven to help other people (again, this is true in any other version of the character) to the point where he can never give up the role... there's ALWAYS more people to help, and he won't rest until he has done so. But in Nolan's film, Batman quits... not once, but TWICE over the course of the later films.

The reality is, those aspects of Batman and his world were purposely downplayed by Nolan in order to make Batman more of a normal guy in a more realistic world. And that's fine, it worked within the context of the films but I do also see why other fans feel as though taking away those aspects of the character rip out a core part of who Batman is. It's an area where I can see both sides, even if I personally was perfectly fine with Nolan's Batman (in the same way I'm fine with elseworlds type stuff), and I can't fault guys like Benton for seeing things that way.

That said, I DO take issue with people just saying the films are automatically bad because they don't like how batman was portrayed. You can dislike a film for those reasons, but that doesn't mean the film wasn't well written or directed just because you personally don't like how Nolan interpreted the character. It's incredibly narrow-minded to suggest that it's automatically a bad film because you interpret a character differently.

Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2012, 12:34:50 PM »
Quote
That said, I DO take issue with people just saying the films are automatically bad because they don't like how batman was portrayed. You can dislike a film for those reasons, but that doesn't mean the film wasn't well written or directed just because you personally don't like how Nolan interpreted the character. It's incredibly narrow-minded to suggest that it's automatically a bad film because you interpret a character differently.

This is weird because when they do stuff like this in comics people are more forgiving, they take it as a "What If" or an alternate version of the character.  Maybe it's because I'm older, but that how I see these super heroes movie now, as an alternate version of the character.  Burton had his version, Nolan had his.  Both movies were completely different for each other but in my opinion, I enjoyed them very much.
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2012, 06:11:48 PM »
There may be a time factor to consider as well. By the time the individual character films have been released and then the JL film is then produced, the public's infactuation with Super Heroes may have gone. These films are riding high at the moment but it's a fad that will come to an end. Vampires were all the thing a while back, vampires on the big screen, vampires on the TV, vampires everywhere but now, apart from the Twilight films, interest has gone. I can only assume that this will hapen with the superhero films as well.

DC/WB may miss the boat....

This is an aside.  Those looking only for Justice League/Nolan Batman rantings, skip over.

Apart from Twilight, interest in vampires has gone?  That's hilarious.  There are at least 3 different vampire-based TV shows being made right now, probably more, a dozen young adult book series trying to cash in on Twilight's crappy popularity, and vampire movies come and go as regularly as the tides.  Mostly awful vampire properties are still everywhere.

Normal thread topic may now continue.

Offline kaflinkle_rises

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2012, 12:49:28 PM »
But my point was about trends, not about Vampires. I can only speak about what I see in the UK though.

 

Offline JeyNyce

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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2012, 08:12:57 PM »
I think 'Mato explained some of the objections to Nolan's movies being "Batman" movies pretty well.  Thanks 'Mato.  Do I think that the differences between the Batman mythos and the versions on film invalidate the movies as worthwhile texts themselves?  No, of course not.  I think it's pretty obvious that both of the latter Nolan films have more than enough flaws on their own to, if not cripple them, certainly hobble them as films and films alone.  They're both pretty flawed, replete with plot holes, characters acting irrationally for their established personalities, and the second one suffers horribly from bad editing.  Yet, the real problem with these films is not that they aren't Batman movies (and let's face it, they aren't really Batman movies), but that Nolan is all concept, and in this case, his concepts are too sprawling for the big screen.  They'd work great as books, TV series, or longer format adaptations, but he's always trying to do too much in too little space.

I actually could have really enjoyed the last movie if it weren't for the supreme sadness I felt at coming so close to a great ending for a beloved character, but having that ending tainted by all that was missing.  Despite that, I don't think these films are awful, and I don't hate them, but I certainly can't share in the unadulterated worship everyone showers on them.  They're just far too flawed for such high praise.

In the end, Nolan is a talented director who aims too high.  That's a better problem to have than many others, but I wish he'd spend a bit more time on the details.  I'd also prefer for my favorite characters to have their stories told by people who actually want to tell stories about them.  If you think that Batman is too silly to work on film, you're ultimately the wrong guy for the job.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 08:17:02 PM by BentonGrey »
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2012, 09:00:56 PM »
Watch and discuss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SR5tcpH9aA0

I was watching John Carter the other day and was thinking that Lynn Collins would be perfect for the role, which this lady apparently agrees with.  At least in that film, she looks impressively muscular and physically strong, but still attractive, so I think it would be a perfect fit.  Don't have an opinion on any other casting.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2012, 11:22:27 PM »
Watch and discuss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SR5tcpH9aA0

I was watching John Carter the other day and was thinking that Lynn Collins would be perfect for the role, which this lady apparently agrees with.  At least in that film, she looks impressively muscular and physically strong, but still attractive, so I think it would be a perfect fit.  Don't have an opinion on any other casting.

Yeah, I think she'd make a pretty decent Wonder Woman, though I think WW would be better off as someone a bit more...Amazonian.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2012, 01:45:51 AM »
Wow........this list really illustrates why someone desperately needs to take all control of DC movies out of these people's hands....
http://www.cracked.com/article_19206_5-superhero-movies-you-wont-believe-almost-got-made.html
Be warned, this is not family or work safe.
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