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Author Topic: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire  (Read 5209 times)

Online Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2012, 03:57:22 AM »
It's kind of an obvious choice, but we still don't have a director or writer yet, let alone an actual script that says "_____ is the villain"

Benton, as stupid as those movies are, keep in mind that most of them were being conceptualized prior to the release of X-men 1. Yeah, we've had some stinkers since then too, but we've reached the point with Superhero films (especially now) that there HAS to be substance to the film for it to do well. WB might not be as receptive to that as Marvel has been, but I highly doubt a Jack Black Green Lantern film would make it past the conception stage in today's market.

I'm going to be honest here: If this project does go forward (and I'm not really convinced it will, tbh) I don't think it will be a bad film. WB can't afford for it to be a bad film, and I'm sure they'll pump enough money and talent into it to make it at least a passable team movie. The problem I have with it(as I think it is with most fans) is that it cannot be a great film, and Justice League deserves to be a great film.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2012, 07:56:48 PM »
Benton, as stupid as those movies are, keep in mind that most of them were being conceptualized prior to the release of X-men 1. Yeah, we've had some stinkers since then too, but we've reached the point with Superhero films (especially now) that there HAS to be substance to the film for it to do well. WB might not be as receptive to that as Marvel has been, but I highly doubt a Jack Black Green Lantern film would make it past the conception stage in today's market.
Ha, I think you're giving them entirely too much credit, 'Mato.  Still, I understand your point.  Their collective inability to put together anything cohesive and organized speaks to the fact that the suits running WB still haven't realized the reality of the situation.  Yes, X1 and Spider-Man 1 were game changers, and WB did partially change their own game in response.  However, Iron Man 1 was also a game changer, while The Avengers was even more revolutionary.  Those are the lessons they don't seem to have learned.  Would a Jack Black Green Lantern get off the ground now?  Maybe not, but a Ryan Reynolds one did, and while it wasn't nearly as bad as that train wreck sounded, it wasn't nearly as far removed as we might expect.  Ha, don't get me wrong, I hope things like this never get through, but these days I have absolutely zero faith in WB's ability to make good decisions, which brings me to:

I'm going to be honest here: If this project does go forward (and I'm not really convinced it will, tbh) I don't think it will be a bad film. WB can't afford for it to be a bad film, and I'm sure they'll pump enough money and talent into it to make it at least a passable team movie. The problem I have with it(as I think it is with most fans) is that it cannot be a great film, and Justice League deserves to be a great film.
I think that's very well said, though I don't really have faith that it will even be passable.  It certainly COULD be.  WB has proven that they can hit the bullseye (translated, they've gotten exceptionally lucky) with movies..wait, a movie like Batman Begins, but it seems like massive projects like this, with so very much ridding on them, can so easily be spoiled by nervous executives desperate to ensure their success.    Take a look at Aliens 3, Superman 2, ad infinitum.  I very much hope that we'll see a good JLA film, but, and I think this is where you really hit the mark, these characters deserve a GREAT movie, and passable would be terribly disappointing in context.

I know I'm going to once again be accused of being a general pessimist about movies, but I point any naysayers to every post I make about any project of Marvel Studios.  Those guys have earned my faith like crazy-go-nuts.  WB has consistently punched my faltering hopes in the gut and stolen their lunch money.  Remember, this is coming from the guy that created the DCUG.  I like these characters just a bit.  They're my favorites, so it's even more disappointing when WB continues to fail in such spectacular fashion.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 08:01:20 PM by BentonGrey »
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Online Tomato

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2012, 10:51:08 PM »
Well see, here's what I mean by "passable" films... when I say passable, I'm talking about movies like Wolverine and Green Lantern. Those two movies are VERY flawed, but when it comes down to whether I'll sit and watch them if they're on tv or when I'm tired of watching avengers for the 500th time... I can actually watch and enjoy them.

Contrast that with bad movies like X3, B&R, and Superman Returns. I can't even sit through X3 in a sitting... I get to somewhere around the "Cyclops dies" scene and I go all EPIC NERD RAGE and shut it off.

I have every faith that WB will make a movie I can sit through. I just don't have any faith that it'll be one I'll really enjoy.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2012, 05:21:25 PM »
Well see, here's what I mean by "passable" films... when I say passable, I'm talking about movies like Wolverine and Green Lantern. Those two movies are VERY flawed, but when it comes down to whether I'll sit and watch them if they're on tv or when I'm tired of watching avengers for the 500th time... I can actually watch and enjoy them.

Contrast that with bad movies like X3, B&R, and Superman Returns. I can't even sit through X3 in a sitting... I get to somewhere around the "Cyclops dies" scene and I go all EPIC NERD RAGE and shut it off.

I have every faith that WB will make a movie I can sit through. I just don't have any faith that it'll be one I'll really enjoy.

Wow, I'm very surprised at that, 'Mato.  I could watch X3 much more easily than Green Lantern.  I can't believe you'd lump X3 in the same category with Batman and Robin...ha, you must REALLY hate it.
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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2012, 10:30:55 PM »
Killing off Cyclops in such a bs fashion, the nonsense with regards to jean grey, trying to lump together the phoenix saga and cure storylines (some of the most complex aspects of xmen lore) on top of the resurgence of the brotherhood AND introducing so many new characters just to kill or cure them, the rogue thing... it's a total and complete mess of a movie and a mockery of what was once my favorite comic series ever.

Compare that to Green Lantern, which was a bit on the silly side and had a lame set of villains, but showed promise for better sequels due to how they handled Sinestro, Kilowag, and to an extent Hal (Ryan would not have been my first choice, but he didn't do a BAD job in that role.)

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2013, 01:25:10 AM »
So, some new rumors have been circulating... that the JL was going to only include 5 members, that JGL is definitely NOT gonna be batman, and one in particular stating that WB has scrapped the current Justice League script entirely.

Offline Mr. Hamrick

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2013, 03:21:13 AM »
So, some new rumors have been circulating... that the JL was going to only include 5 members, that JGL is definitely NOT gonna be batman, and one in particular stating that WB has scrapped the current Justice League script entirely.
I actually could see where a first JLA movie should only include 5-7 members.   The only reason The Avengers got more into their was that all the characters had appeared in other movies first except Maria Hill.  (Hawkeye had a cameo in Thor, remember?)   

JGL is doing Sin City 2.  He was asked directly about is involvement with a JLA film and even a cameo in Man of Steel.  He shot it down point blank and said that he had just committed to doing Sin City 2 and that the interviewer if there was a question about a rumor involving him and a film to ask him. 

I've heard the same about the JLA script being scrapped.  It would not surprise me given that the person wrote just penned "Gangster Squad" which bombed more or less at the box office.


Offline Panther_Gunn

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 03:44:04 PM »
I've heard the same about the JLA script being scrapped.  It would not surprise me given that the person wrote just penned "Gangster Squad" which bombed more or less at the box office.

On the other hand, Beall has only written 5 episodes of the show Castle (I'm not familiar with it), and "edited" 32 of them (including his 5, I'm assuming), as well as the not-quite-yet released Gangster Squad.  Is he really *that* good of a writer to be given responsibility for what should be 3 big-budget movies, when his only other screenplay hasn't even hit the theaters yet?

If that particular rumor pans out, I'll take the credit for calling this one, as I'm so rarely right about these things long-range.
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Offline Mr. Hamrick

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2013, 09:45:18 PM »
I've heard the same about the JLA script being scrapped.  It would not surprise me given that the person wrote just penned "Gangster Squad" which bombed more or less at the box office.

On the other hand, Beall has only written 5 episodes of the show Castle (I'm not familiar with it), and "edited" 32 of them (including his 5, I'm assuming), as well as the not-quite-yet released Gangster Squad.  Is he really *that* good of a writer to be given responsibility for what should be 3 big-budget movies, when his only other screenplay hasn't even hit the theaters yet?

If that particular rumor pans out, I'll take the credit for calling this one, as I'm so rarely right about these things long-range.

Apparently, he wasn't all that good after all.  It's like I said to someone a long time ago.  "Not everyone who writes good TV can write a good film nor can everyone who writes a good film write good TV." 

Offline docdelorean88

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2013, 02:17:08 AM »


Apparently, he wasn't all that good after all.  It's like I said to someone a long time ago.  "Not everyone who writes good TV can write a good film nor can everyone who writes a good film write good TV."
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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2013, 05:42:37 AM »
Unless your Joss Whedon...

Mk, three issues with that statement. One, Joss Whedon HAS done film before (Serenity) and was moderately familiar with it BEFORE jumping into Avengers. Two, there is a VAST difference between Castle (which, as much as I enjoy it, is essentially just a basic crime drama) and Firefly (which was a space western involving a ton of special effects, a large cast of characters and dozens of intersecting plotlines). Third, Joss Whedon wasn't just writer no. 7 on those shows... he's been the head writer/director for at least half a dozen tv shows at this point. Beall's one legitimate film script outside of JL just tanked at the box office.

That being said, Hamrick's point wasn't that tv writers couldn't be movie writers, it's that not everyone is flexible enough to do BOTH.

Offline Mr. Hamrick

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2013, 05:07:47 PM »
Unless your Joss Whedon...
That being said, Hamrick's point wasn't that tv writers couldn't be movie writers, it's that not everyone is flexible enough to do BOTH.

Exactly.  Plus, there are differences format wise in writing for TV vs. Film. 

1) The average 60 minute episode of a TV show is actually only 42-45 minutes long.  The other 15-18 minutes are commercial time.  The average 30 minute TV show is only 22 minutes long.  The average film is between 100-120 minutes long.  In recent years, it's not uncommon to see 'bigger films' (like The Avengers or the Harry Potter movies) to run closer to the 150 minute mark.   Star Wars was a rarity back in the day for having a 120 minute run time.  This is one reason (though not the only reason) why some films get 'director cuts' or 'extended editions' after being released.

2) That 42-45 minutes of TV show time generally has a 5 part break down. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Feature films break down into three acts but often those three acts break down to 8 segments.  The only exception I can think of here are films that include the words "Written by Uwe Boll" or "Directed by Uwe Boll"

3) The amount of time allowed for character development usually differs between TV and Film.   In the long run, TV will have more time for character development if the show is successful.  A successful TV show season could run anywhere between 6-13 hours for a UK TV season (from what I have seen) to 13-26 hours for a US series.  Compare that to film which successful or not will only have 1.5 to 2.5 hours.

That is to say nothing about Whedon.  Whedon has a style of writing that lends itself to either genre.  And as Tomato pointed out, Whedon was the HEAD WRITER on the show.  He was essentially was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_runner show runner (ala what Steven Moffat is for Doctor Who) for the Buffy series as well as being the head writer.   (For those who do not know, the show runner on a TV show outranks the director.)  Whedon's style tends to lean toward being character driven over plot driven.  No one is saying that the plots are not important but that the focus is on the character driving the story as oppose to the plot driving it.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2013, 08:29:22 PM »
*Shrug* The rumored canning of the script is not particularly surprising or interesting to me.  As for rumors of a five character JLA, that isn't necessarily a terrible idea for some narrative purposes, especially if the missing two were Batman and Superman.  The World's Finest team of Batman and Superman could easily end up overwhelming all the other characters because of their powers/personalities/audience familiarity.  However, the trouble with that is audiences are going to wonder why the heck they should go see a Justice League film without Superman or Batman.  That's fairly irrelevant, though, as the suits would never hear of not having their cash cows in on the show.  The real problem here isn't that the cast is too big, the stories too difficult to translate, or the characters not familiar enough to audiences.  The problem is the same problem that this project has faced since the beginning, namely, WB has no clear idea what they're doing.  At the risk of beating the dead horse, we've seen this work, and work beautifully, and we've seen it with Marvel.  Could this be done without the vision and unity of Marvel's approach?  Probably, but not as well, and not as accurately.

In the end I imagine we'll get exactly what all of this predicts, some wounded, half-hearted, mess of a movie like pretty much every other DC flick in the last ten years.
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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2013, 11:57:43 PM »
*Shrug* The rumored canning of the script is not particularly surprising or interesting to me.  As for rumors of a five character JLA, that isn't necessarily a terrible idea for some narrative purposes, especially if the missing two were Batman and Superman.  The World's Finest team of Batman and Superman could easily end up overwhelming all the other characters because of their powers/personalities/audience familiarity.  However, the trouble with that is audiences are going to wonder why the heck they should go see a Justice League film without Superman or Batman.  That's fairly irrelevant, though, as the suits would never hear of not having their cash cows in on the show.  The real problem here isn't that the cast is too big, the stories too difficult to translate, or the characters not familiar enough to audiences.  The problem is the same problem that this project has faced since the beginning, namely, WB has no clear idea what they're doing.  At the risk of beating the dead horse, we've seen this work, and work beautifully, and we've seen it with Marvel.  Could this be done without the vision and unity of Marvel's approach?  Probably, but not as well, and not as accurately.

In the end I imagine we'll get exactly what all of this predicts, some wounded, half-hearted, mess of a movie like pretty much every other DC flick in the last ten years.

Er... no, see, the five member team was gonna be...

You know what, never mind. It would break your poor, Aquaman loving heart to tell you what they were planning.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Justice League, assemble as well, or why Warner Bros should die in a fire
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2013, 02:18:46 AM »
Er... no, see, the five member team was gonna be...

You know what, never mind. It would break your poor, Aquaman loving heart to tell you what they were planning.

Haha, no worries 'Mato, I have no illusions about the intelligence or fidelity of the folks involved.  I'm sure they weren't going to do that, and I'm also relatively sure that they don't have the imagination to grasp how awesome Aquaman is. 
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