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Author Topic: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!  (Read 12115 times)

Offline Deaths Jester

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Offline Silver Shocker

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I should note most of this post I wrote last Thursday and saved as an unfinished draft, so keep that in mind if some of this seems detached from the current conversation:

BTW, not for nothing, you have to admit it's just your opinion that Luke Cage is "easily the weakest" series, when it did score better on RT than the other three.  I don't think that qualifies as "easily".

Yes, that's correct. *I* found it easily the weakest. I'm not saying everyone did. I probably should have added that it's my opinion, but I kinda took it for granted that it was a given. At this point I've kinda learned as a rule of thumb that a lot of things people say online about movies, comics, tv shows, ect, are strictly opinion, even when they say they're not. For whatever it's worth, I know other people (such as the group I was watched it with) who also thought it was the weakest.

Now, If I recall correctly, I never posted my thoughts on Cage (appropriate, since more than reviewer I followed who reviewed the other shows didn't review or even mention Cage) when it came out, but I can tell you why I think it was the weakest. I didn't care about the other characters other than Cage, whereas in DD and JJ I cared about everyone from the very first episode, it had the disadvantage of the audience already knowing Luke Cage from JJ and knowing he was good. The late-in-the-game twist with Diamondback was lame, cliche, and didn't even really seem to add much to the story. And lastly, the antagonists didn't steal the show the way D'nofrio's Kingpin, Tennant's Killgrave and Jon Berenthal's Punisher did. Cottonmouth was ok I guess, but to me he felt like a lesser Kingpin, and he wasn't in the show nearly as long as said prior villains.

And, I imagine I'm might get crap for this, but since discussion of the race angle was Iron Fist is inevitable, I'll just say it: in my opinion, contrary to what CBR will tell you, positive representation should not trump story, character and acting. Is Cage being a example of positive representation a positive? Sure, but I don't think it's enough to make it the best show. I think there's a good chance reviewers scored Cage more positive because of the positive representation. Remember, reviewers gave good reviews.  to Ghostbusters: Answer the Call, which featured the kind of low-brow comedy that 1) usually scores poorly with critics (and decent chunk of the audience, for that matter) and 2) is almost completely out of touch with the comedy styles of the original Ghostbusters

If you disagreed on my assessment of the show, if you liked the more than I did, awesome. You do you. I honestly wasn't trying to piss anyone off, or make it out like my opinion was fact (that's actually a pretty big pet peeve of mine). Not stressing that it was my opinion is on me.

That being said. I should point out, as has been pointed out in the past, that Rotten Tomatoes isn't the be-all-end-all for quality. What they do, as I understand it, is tally up a percentage of positive reviews. The number doesn't tell you how many of those reviews gave a 6/10, 10/10, whatever. I don't know about movie critics, but I know a number of prominent internet video game critics dislike using numbers to score a game because it "doesn't fully represent their thoughts on the game" (something I kinda disagree with myself) and that their audience should make a point to read the actual body of text.

In my opinion, reviews (both industry-level "professional reviews" and internet Youtube-esque reviews alike) are sometimes full of crap. I often enjoy action movies that get weak reviews. I've also heard that many "old guard" film critics aren't superhero fans  per-se, and like to say there's superhero fatigue and say there's too many superhero movies, that the genre's junk food, ect. As Finn Jones said, us fans are probably more likely to be forgiving to the show. Though admittedly, a lot of use haven't liked the recent DC films, so who knows.

It's the fact that Marvel's stuff has consistently got good reviews that makes this so surprising and noteworthy.

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In all seriousness though, are people seriously being critical of Iron Fist because he's not Asian?  Why would anybody be mad at the show and not Roy Thomas who wrote it?  I mean "Danny Rand" isn't the most Asian of names I've heard of....
Am I missing something?

I said the same thing about Apocalypse being a blasphemous character when X-Men Apocalypse was coming out and I was told "it's the responsibility of the filmmaker to take that stuff out" [for the record, they did in the final film, as I pointed out at the time] I'm not really sure how I feel about such things in general, but I can say that if something was popular enough to endure in the comics, then translating it to the films and tv shows (something Marvel's films and DC's shows have, IMO, done a really great job doing) should be enough. This is why I disagree pretty strongly with the "All of Marvel's movie villains suck except Loki" criticism. The idea that the comic versions of say, Red Skull and Ultron worked great in the comics and cartoons but somehow weren't "good enough" for Hollywood action movies is kinda annoying to me.

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Probably. Aside from most people not knowing who the heck Roy Thomas even is, (shame that,) Iron Fist the TV show isn't Iron Fist the comic, so while it should more or less stay true to its source material to a certain extent, it can also and perhaps is even expected to make some changes for both a new medium and a new decade. What was even then only somewhat acceptable in 1974 isn't so acceptable in 2017, and because of that, they aren't going to let a case of Mighty Whitey fly. It doesn't matter to them whether or not Danny Rand was originally white or who was responsible for making him white, or even that his name isn't Asian.

Yeah, the common audience isn't too concerned with how the comics did it. As for the "not acceptable in 2017" part, I do think it's worthy of some discussion, but some people take that kind of thing too far. I remember IGN being more negative towards the new Tarzan movie because he was played by a white guy, which I found unreasonable, and then in a review of a seemingly innocuous low-budget Pierce Brosnan vehicle that barely anyone's heard of, throwing in a dig at the main character and his family being white as if that's automatically a negative.

On the topic of the name, they could have changed it. That's happened before. The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon made Ned Leeds Ned Lee. And yes, some people complained about the various changes that show did (not strictly changing the races of characters either).

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That doesn't really make things better. 'Well, the first six episodes were crap, but if I'm somehow still sticking with it by this point, then maybe the second half is marginally better by comparison.' The point being that as good as the second half may or may not be, you still shouldn't have to wade through six episodes of sludge to get there.

Yes, that's a good point, but I can't 100% agree with it in general. If the characters and story and action really is rotten, then yes. But I've seen that effect work out in the past quite a few times. The Walking Dead tv show is the best example IMO. I hated S5 and the first half of season 6 but everything since then (I'm up to S7ep3) is a lot better.

Now onto my current thoughts: I'm up to the last 3 episodes, so I'm avoiding everything under the spoiler tags, but the show's ok. It's not as good as DD or JJ, it's about roughly on par with LK, which I was expecting. The character I've enjoyed the most is Coleen Wing, which I was expecing since she was the only part of the show I was looking forward to, since I've enjoyed the character in the few comics I've read that featured her and the actress was a pretty good fit. I would have looked forward to Hoon Lee but 1. I forgot he was in the show until he started showing up and 2. He's not in it nearly enough for it to really matter. All I'll say for now is I was ok with the up until the last few episodes where the plot started getting pretty convoluted so now I'm not so sure.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 10:16:55 AM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Spade

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But, unfortunately, this series suffers from the same issues as DD and Luke Cage; everyone's so expressive about how their feeling at every possible second. Are they all drunken teenagers? Or, the characters are busy psycho-analyzing whatever character they're currently interacting with; creating lazy attempts at being insightful. Honestly, there was so much unnecessary melodramatics that I'm certain Netflix hired the producers, writers, and directors of All my Children to handle the Marvel titles. I've never rolled my eyes so much. As they say on the other side of the Atlantic: rubbish.
That sums up a lot of my problems with Netflix-verse as well.
There is also the tendency to tell everything rather then show.And the fact they are slow as glaciers.Remember how Daredevil spent 5 episodes lying on the couch?
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Offline murs47

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That sums up a lot of my problems with Netflix-verse as well.
There is also the tendency to tell everything rather then show. And the fact they are slow as glaciers. Remember how Daredevil spent 5 episodes lying on the couch?

I suspect the conclusion to the Defenders will be the Hand being talked to death. Thanks Netflix!

Offline Shogunn2517

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So there's this...

Apparently by some metrics, Iron Fist is Marvel's second most popular series.

Take it for what it's worth.

http://screenrant.com/iron-fist-marvel-netflix-ratings-viewership/

Offline GhostMachine

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Funny thing about that is - and I've yet to watch the show; the trailer didn't look too hot - is that most reactions I've seen to the show online are that its the drizzling you-know-whats and either needs to be cancelled or get new showrunners.


Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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So there's this...

Apparently by some metrics, Iron Fist is Marvel's second most popular series.

Take it for what it's worth.

http://screenrant.com/iron-fist-marvel-netflix-ratings-viewership/

Considering that this is the first Marvel Netflix season EVER to have lower ratings than the previous one, that's actually a bad sign.  It's basically just coasting by on the brands recognition, not on any interest people have on that particular series.

It's still redeemable though, ratings wise.  Maybe they'll decide to do a Hulk and just pair the character up with another one for maximum effect.  Maybe have the two form a business or something.
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Offline crimsonquill

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There was rumors and grapevine bits of news that the writers and showrunners were constantly debating on the direction of Iron Fist. It has become very apparent that each director took their episodes towards the concept they had in mind but left it feeling like a broken up puzzle then a complete vision. There wasn't really a core "we need to make this character the Kung Fu of our Netflix universe as that lone warrior returning home to a world who moved on and enemies could be everywhere" running plot line through every episode and felt reluctant to embrace his origin or the mystical aspects of the Dragon Of The Iron Fist or even what mastering Chi could do to Danny or anyone else who wanted to follow his techniques. I could almost say this show was Season Zero to a Heroes For Hire series just passing on their story problems to The Defenders because The Hand was their prime focus anyway. I was very thrilled when I heard Wu-Tang Clan become involved with the show (mostly the music) but very disappointed that their influence and love for old school kung fu movies didn't flow into the series overall (Hell, Rza got to direct an episode and it was the Drunken Guard episode). I even expected to hear a version of "Kung-Fu Fighting" somewhere just to bring in some old school cheesy music as a theme song since Luke Cage took advantage of the Harlem music scene which energized it during slower moments.

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« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 07:38:44 PM by crimsonquill »
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Offline BentonGrey

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We're on episode three, and we're enjoying it, but the show definitely needs to pick up the pace.  It's too slow.

Like I've said before, this show basically writes itself.  All you have to do is 'Kung Fu in New York.'  How hard is that?  I'd love to see them embrace the aesthetic and themes of classic kung fu movies and the classic show.  That would make this something special.  Perhaps season 2 will pull that off if this season doesn't manage it.

Murs, I'm obviously only a little ways into this one, but I feel like you're way too hard on the other shows.  It sounds like you're describing every show on the CW, and while there can be a bit too much angst on the Netflix shows, it doesn't come close to comparing to the DRAMA of those.  I found DD and, to a lesser extent, LC, to be pretty grounded as far as such things go.
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Offline detourne_me

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I'm honestly having a hard time finishing the series... the Meachum plotline is just so odd... also theres a new Season of Grace and Frankie on Netflix and my wife and I enjoy that show quite a bit...and Mass Effect Andromeda has been occupying the rest of my free time! Oh and Wrestlemania is coming up this weekend.... maybe Iron Fist can wait.

Offline Shogunn2517

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I'm honestly having a hard time finishing the series... the Meachum plotline is just so odd... also theres a new Season of Grace and Frankie on Netflix and my wife and I enjoy that show quite a bit...and Mass Effect Andromeda has been occupying the rest of my free time! Oh and Wrestlemania is coming up this weekend.... maybe Iron Fist can wait.

It comes through.  I'd finish it.  Think you'd appreciate it.

Offline BentonGrey

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I have to say, the Meachums are proving to be much more interesting characters than I anticipated. 
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Offline Starman

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Iron Fist was awful.

As even Finn Jones admitted, he only had a few weeks to work out and train in martial arts before shooting began. That is how rushed this production was. That is why the writing was a hot mess and the dialogue was frequently ridiculous.

The only things remotely enjoyable about Iron Fist was some great acting from the guy who played Davos and some serious charisma from the woman who played Colleen Wing.

It's also worth pointing out that for all the arguing over whether Danny should be white or Asian, the show deliberately kept quiet on the casting of Davos until the last minute. Why? Because comic book Davos is a huge, buff Asian guy and Netflix Davos is a tiny Indian guy ... who is really, really good in the role.

Offline Shogunn2517

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Hey, everyone how about some Punisher pics!

http://www.gettyimages.ca/photos/jon-bernthal?excludenudity=true&family=editorial&phrase=jon%20bernthal&sort=best#license

They actually ARE filming! (Yay #spadeshappy)

Does this mean, the Defenders is in the can?  Still filming?  Will the Punisher show up in the Defenders?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:47:22 AM by Shogunn2517 »

Offline Spade

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They could be filming at the same time?
On the release,Netflix said next year- after Defenders.Marvel said this year.So probably this year.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 05:26:24 AM by Spade »
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Yeah, Wikipedia's saying this year.  And I heard something a while back that said Defenders was getting a Summer release and Punisher a fall/winter release.  If that were the case, I'd imagine we'd have more release dates than we do now.

And yeah, I suppose they could be filming at the same time(didn't mean to suggest they weren't).  Although I do question whether Marvel is putting on two separate productions at the same time of the same property.

Offline Spade

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I would guess Punisher wont show up in The Defenders,in which case having a separate schedule makes sense.But Im not really sure how things work there.
 And I think fall/winter release(after Defenders) will probably be the case here.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Well, there you have it.  Defenders has wrapped.  The Punisher is filming and... Jessica Jones starts filming tomorrow, apparently.

http://www.onlocationvacations.com/2017/04/02/monday-april-3-filming-locations-scandal-ncis-l-chicago-fire-captive-state-divorce-jessica-jones/

Offline Shogunn2517

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Offline BentonGrey

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Color me interested.

Also, I feel like Starman is being far too hard on Iron Fist.  It isn't great like Daredevil, or even very good like Luke Cage, but it's a solid enough show.  We're at episode 9 or so, so we're pretty far into it.  There are plenty of weaknesses, but there are also plenty of strengths.  In particular, I'm really impressed by the Meachums' arcs and performances.  It is, unfortunately, a sign of the weakness of parts of Danny's story that they often steal the scene from him, but it's also a sign of their strength as characters and the interest generated by their stories.  In general, the show is certainly below the standard of the other two I've seen, but it's still above most of what's on actual TV. 
God Bless
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Offline BentonGrey

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Okay, so we've finished it, and here are my thoughts-

Non-spoilery overview: It's entertaining but wildly uneven in just about every way: pacing, tone, quality, and themes.  Nonetheless, it's still pretty fun to watch, and there are enough intriguing mysteries and interesting characters to keep the audience interested even when the story of the Iron Fist himself isn't electrifying.  Unfortunately, that is a problem, as Danny Rand is probably one of the weaker elements.  The guy playing him is serviceable, probably about on par with the fellow playing Luke Cage, but the latter wasn't called upon to do as many challenging things in his performance, so the seams show more for this actor. 

Lady Grey and I both thought that the character himself goes from likeable in the beginning to rather unlikable by the end of the season.  That seems somewhat intentional, but perhaps rather short-sighted for your main character.  In general, it seemed as if they were a little uncertain about what exactly they wanted to do with the Iron Fist, much like Danny himself.  On the plus side, the supporting cast is actually quite good, and the Meachums' stories, despite mostly just being drama with no real action to speak of, are often the strongest points of the episodes.  The action was decent, though not breathtaking in the way that Daredevil often was.  The threats seemed more credible than in Luke Cage, where they really had a hard time challenging the character.  One thing that the reviews were definitely right about is that this show is often guilty of one breaking one of the most important storytelling commandments, 'show, don't tell.'  When we should get a flashback or an interpolated episode, we instead get two characters just sitting and talking.  I have to think that this was at least partially due to budget concerns, but nonetheless, it was a problem.  That is, of course, indicative of the pacing problems, as the show tends to dawdle when it should move briskly and rush when it should stroll.

In general, I'm glad we watched it, and I enjoyed how it expanded the Marvel TV world, though I wish it had done more worldbuilding.  It's better than many shows on regular TV, but not as good as the other Marvel shows I've seen.  I'd probably give it a B- or C+, or in my Minutemen scoring system, 3 Minutemen out of five.

Spoilery Thoughts (In no particular order):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 03:28:30 AM by BentonGrey »
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Offline detourne_me

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I agree with BG quite a bit, and I finally got around to finishing the series last night on a bus ride home. Uneven is probably the most apt word to describe the show. the characters flipflopped so many times, the acting, writing, tone, and plot points all seemed so wishy-washy.

If I were to redo the series, id probably keep a number of the same items, just restructure the show to make more sense. This show shouldve been more like Kill Bill than Arrow. (Heck, even the first two seasons of Arrow pulled a better Kill Bill styled vengeance plot).

Offline Starman

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In general, the show is certainly below the standard of the other two I've seen, but it's still above most of what's on actual TV.

You must be watching some rubbish if you think a show you gave a C+ to is "above" most other shows on TV.

I blame Marvel for rushing "Iron Fist" out and Scott Buck, as showrunner, for the dire writing. Good grief, that poor character development and bad dialogue. Not allowing Finn Jones the training to sell Danny Rand as the greatest hand-to-hand fighter in the MCU was almost the least of this show's problems.

Unfortunately, Marvel also tapped Scott Buck as the showrunner for "The Inhumans" ... no doubt because he managed to complete "Iron Fist" on such a tight time-schedule, despite its dire quality.