Kitbashing: Should It Be Allowed? Open Discussion.

[Cyber Burn]

So here we are, feel free to give an honest opinion. But please keep tempers to a minimum.

I know I've been hard on people for doing this, but I think I always made it an issue of giving credit where credit is due. I think that we should have a permissions thread similar to what we have for skoping. Let permissions be given, let rules be made. Same deal.

I know it's been a while since I've actually made a skin, so I don't know how relevant my opinion is, but I think if a skinner is willing to allow his or her skins to be kitbashed for either the purpose of being used for a skope, or a mesh, or even just to create a new skin, then I think that maybe it should be allowed.

Like I said, as long as the original creators have given permission and are credited, I don't think that there should be an issue.

So what does everyone else think?

[Podmark]

Like nifskoping it should be based on the creators wishes.

[AfghanAnt]

... kitbash the heck out of whatever you would like of my work and distribute wherever you want. If it keeps you interested in this community and FF I know my time wasn't wasted.

Also have fun! This is suppose to be gaming community.

[Sioux City Dynamo]

I feel the same as AA.  I hope to see more folks get involved in the community and create content.  If there is anything of mine that is helpful, please use it and have fun doing it!!

[Cyber Burn]

In case I wasn't clear, I give permission for my skins to be kitbashed. However, I will say that I have three rules.

1. Make sure that you create a "Read_Me" file which states the name(s) of which skin(s) of mine you used.
2. Make sure proper credit is given in your "Read_Me" file. If you are kitbashing my skins, make sure you give me credit for what I did, and make sure to give credit to the creator of the base skin(s) that I used.
3. Make sure you have fun. 
4. It's not mandatory, but I would like to see what you have created.

Edit: Amended rules because I like what Tomato said about being able to see what was created.

[spydermann93]

While I agree that it would be a great idea for new creators to use whatever they wish in creating new content (I know that I do for personal projects), I also think that it is more fair to not allow the release of kittbashed skins unless otherwise specified.

In the Total War forums, we (the moderators) are rather strict on new users if they use the material of another user, but we don't outright lash them for a first offense (or second, depending on how extreme the offense is).  We just tell them that it is against site policy to use another member's material/creations without permission and then we go about our business as usual.  No hard feelings for either party (though, seldomly, we do get users who feel personally attacked when such action is taken).  There have been several cases in which a user outright stole from another content creator, claiming that they had permission, or (even worse) that the content was of their own creation.

That is why I think that a skinning list, like the skoping list that we currently have, would be a great idea.  For anybody who'd like new users to use any material that they themselves have made, they could express that wish on the list.  For those who do not wish for their own content to be used, they can say so as well.  That way, if somebody cannot explicity say that their skins are NOT for public use, their wishes will be respected while the users who will allow new creators to use their content don't have to leap in and say that it's ok for so-and-so to use such-and-such skin.

As with Cyber, I am a very fond advocate with 1) giving proper credits whenever anything from anybody else is used, and 2) getting permission from the creator to use such content.  With the permissions list, new users (or current users) can at least fill requirement #2.  Credit would be a nice thing to include, but if a user absolutely wanted credit for whenever their work is used, that could be a special condition, much like Tommyboy has for his meshes.

The way I see it, both sides have their fair arguments.  Nobody is wrong in any regard, so I'm just trying to think of a compromise that is suitable to both parties.  I love seeing content for this game being created (it's amazing what everybody has come up with), but I would also like to make sure that the appropriate amount of respect is paid to all content creators.

[Tomato]

I used to have it spelled out in my readmes, but I don't really give a hoot if someone wants to kittbash my work, so long as I receive credit. I would ask that people let me know what they're doing (I'd actually like to see what was done, just for curiosity's sake) but it's not a requirement.

[deano_ue]

i'm gonna be the bad guy here and say no, i dont want my stuff kittbashed.

look i can see where people are coming from but after all the similar 6 crap i worked very hard to make my stuff look unique, and i do kinda feel annoyed in my experience of seeing someone be they old or new just swiping work and no credit its just soured me. I'm not a hypocrite i did kittbash at the start but it was knocked on the head very quickly by members way back in the ezboard days and was told to try and learn  I knew nothing about ps but progressed at a slow rate and taught myself, bought magazines and read every tutorial under the sun. still do.

I have no problem if people use skins as templates if you're unsure how i've created a pattern or lined something up then by all means use my skin under a wiremap to see where i've placed thats fine but create you're own version i will happily help anyone if they have any questions about how i did something

this is going to urine a lot of people off and make me the new community bad guy, and will just give a lot mroe ammo to certain members but its where I stand and i will discuss it more if anyone wishes

[detourne_me]

You're not the bad guy at all (to the guy that calls himself the Ultimate Evil)
It's your own work, and we appreciate the work that you do.
I do think that we have reached a point though, where kitbashing is just inevitable.

now i'm all for the sharing and manipulation of IP, heck it's what I named my avatar after, but I can respect someone that doesn't wish to have their work altered....and released as original work.
Content is gonna get altered no matter what, once it's released online.

[Cyber Burn]

TUE, when starting this thread, I specifically asked for HONEST opinions. If you don't want your work kitbashed, that is 100% alright. That is why I am agreeing with Spydermann and suggesting that a specific "Permissions List and Rules" thread be created similar to the skoping thread. Let potential skinners or skopers know whose work is allowed to be kitbashed and whose isn't.

Unless I missed something, I don't think that you are being the "New Community Bad Guy", you're an artist asking that his wishes regarding his work be followed. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Podmark]

If that's the route we're going I'll start up skinning permissions list later today. Comment below or pm me if you haven't stated your position yet.

TUE you're not the bad guy. It's your work, you should decide how you want it used or not used.

[Deaths Jester]

I say get the blokes permission and then give them credit when it's done...specially if the creators of the original work don't use base skins or such when they create their work (I HATE base skins...).

[Tomato]

Since we're discussing this anyway... I'm hesitant to bring this up, since I've already been branded pure evil and all, but I think this applies just as much to 'skopes as it does to kitbashes: I may give a blanket permission for people to use my work however they want without having to track me down to ask permission (I don't want to restrict creativity because I'm on vacation or something), but I always reserve the right to rescind that permission in cases where I am uncomfortable how the work is used. If you are using my work on something, you are involving me in its creation, and there are certain things (Rule 34 being the most obvious) that I really want nothing to do with.

I know that seems like common sense, but remember, we're still dealing with the internet. It's tough enough for new members to understand that making the same request thread twice is bad form, or that asking for release twice in two days might be a bit aggravating. Grasping the subtle difference between "Giving permission" and "selling all rights away" is a bit subtle, and it should be made clear that there is a difference from the start of this, rather than letting it become an issue later.

[murs47]

I think a list is in proper order. Has been for a long while. Start it and let's move on.

Instead of worrying about restrictions/rules/guidelines/permissions, perhaps we should focus our efforts on creating and providing resources that enable new and prospective creators. Yes, we have some already. But, how can we make content creation more accessible than it already is? I think this is more important to the longevity of the community than re-iterating the rules...for the thousandth time.

[schick]

There is not one person involved in this hobby that does not base themselves heavily on the work of others.

Whether it be me altering what Grenadier created,
Grenadier altering what Irrational created,
Irrational altering what  Marvel created,
Marvel altering Norse mythology,
and so on...

I should not be able to benefit from the millions who came before me, but then have my own work be removed from the natural evolution.

As far as giving credit, that's just good manners.
You can write some simple guidelines to help people get along.

These short lists of what's allowed to use are not ok, they are incredibly stifling.
It would make more sense to have a list of who might start in with you if you touch their work, just to warn people of troublemakers.

[deano_ue]

Really trouble makers?. So if someone says no to kit bashing or skoping they are just trying to stir stuff

Why do I get the feeling you've been around a lot longer than your post count states.

[schick]

Yes, I read more than I post, because if I post this happens.

[deano_ue]

Nothing's happening here it's an open discussion as requested no one was name calling or stirring it yet, in fact this has been extremely docile compared to how this was done in the past.


I just want a bit more info at how you see someone who doesn't like seeing work they put effort and time into being taken and claimed as someone's else's as a troublemaker. As for your other points of course people rely on what's come before them but they use it as a base to push themselves forward and develop they're own skills. No one has had a problem with that what was the killer about kit bashing was people swiping blatantly others work and then claiming it was completely original .

[schick]

Everybody hates it if somebody missrepresents a piece of work by blatantly removing someone else's credit and inserting their own.
That's inherent in all societies and cultures, I already adressed this as being good manners.

That does not mean that it's not ok to base your work on whatever, or that there's a certain amount of work that transforms what I do into something uniquely untouchable.

[AfghanAnt]

Everybody hates it if somebody missrepresents a piece of work by blatantly removing someone else's credit and inserting their own.

This isn't that serious or nefarious. I think everyone can agree that if altered contented is released, include the original creators in the readme. It really is that simple.

[bearded]

i have only made a few skins, but consider me on the list for free use for anything. Same as my meshes.

Really trouble makers?. So if someone says no to kit bashing or skoping they are just trying to stir stuff

Why do I get the feeling you've been around a lot longer than your post count states.

I am so paranoid about this, but then I realized it doesnt really matter. If there are trolls, or troll baiters, they only win if i let them get me negative.

[Cyber Burn]

Restrictions are restricting.
The rule should be all material everywhere is encouraged for everyone to use.

I don't think anyone here is trying to restrict anyone, our discussion here, in my opinion, is meant to offer more resources to those who want to create content, whether for their own personal use, or for distribution among the community.

Tomato, I think you're being too hard on yourself here. Personally, I don't see you as "The Bad Guy" here. All you've done is request that others' work be respected, nothing wrong with that.

I've tried my hand at skinning, I've tried my hand at skoping, I've tried my hand at FX'ing, I've even tried using GMax and Blender (And failed miserably). So while I'm not great at any of them, I've at least tried them so that I could have at least a slight understanding of the work that goes into them. I have the utmost respect for our content creators. And while I do agree with Schick that everything here is based on something else, I also believe that the creator of the end result should have a say as to what is or isn't done with their hard work.

I don't like the fact that TUE was singled out for asking that his work not be kitbashed, it's his work, it's his right. He shouldn't be persecuted for it.

This isn't that serious or nefarious. I think everyone can agree that if altered contented is released, include the original creators in the readme. It really is that simple.

AA is absolutely right, it really is that simple. If permission is granted, make sure credit is given.

I'm assuming that this is something that the Mods/Admins/Titans have been discussing now, I'm curious as to their opinions on the matter. That being said, is it alright if someone (Pod, and yes I am volunteering you) starts a thread for permissions/rules?

[Podmark]

That being said, is it alright if someone (Pod, and yes I am volunteering you) starts a thread for permissions/rules?

And it's up.
If we need additional rules, explanations, or whatever just let me know. Hopefully a mod will sticky it for us.

I'll add more people as they come in. If anyone wants special notes or whatever added to their entry again just let me know.

[Tomato]

Yeah, no. It's one thing to ask someone for permission, but it's quite another to insinuate that someone is a troublemaker for protecting their own work. The fact that we are even discussing this is far more than I have seen any other art community ever do. Insinuating that TUE is somehow morally abhorent for protecting work he created is just petty.

To turn it around, if we created the nifskope list backwards, making everything open except when people specifically ask NOT to be on the list, what happens in cases like Webrider's? Webrider, for those not aware, is a member who died before nifskope existed. True, by all accounts Webrider would be ok with it, but since he cannot make that decision, we choose to respect him and his work and not make that decision for him. If we make an exception for him, what happens in cases where we honestly don't have contact with the person anymore? They could be dead too for all we know.

Let's face it, TUE is the only person saying this RIGHT NOW, but I highly doubt he will be the only one. I think it's a safe bet that C6, with his history of immitators, will want nothing to do with this list. They have both given far more to this community than most, and I take serious issue with anyone trying to say that isn't enough.

[Podmark]

Yeah I'm with Tomato on this. Attacking or vilifying anyone just because they chose not to give permission is not acceptable.
This isn't complicated, artists will make a choice and we will respect that choice.

Like the Nifskope list I consider anyone who does not directly contact us with their choice to be on the "Denied - Please contact" list. If you can't get in contact don't use their work.

[vorelliwiseau]

For the record, please include me on the auto-allow list for permissions, skin or mesh, using any software you have to! No need to PM me for anything - just credit me in the Readme and it's all good. I welcome any new potential content creators!

I hate to impose (especially with Podmark doing the work), but what are the odds on a unified table, with like a checkbox column for skin/mesh permissions, "Required Credit in Readme", "PM before using pieces", Blender permissions, and other important variables? Not an insistence, of course - just a suggestion!

That way we can just point people out to a single megalist, in some sort of "Read before Posting/Releasing" thread up top. Thanks!

[Podmark]

I hate to impose (especially with Podmark doing the work), but what are the odds on a unified table, with like a checkbox column for skin/mesh permissions, "Required Credit in Readme", "PM before using pieces", Blender permissions, and other important variables? Not an insistence, of course - just a suggestion!

It's a worthwhile suggestion. It's doable but I'd like more feedback before I attempt it. Do other people want this? Would it become more confusing if it was all in one table? Are there many people who don't care about/ want readme credits?

[Tomato]

I think readme credits are a given, personally. I might be alone in this, but I actually do read the readmes. When I'm taking a piece from someone else's skope I always use the readmes to track down what pieces I'm actually using so I can give proper credit.

As for a table... hmm. I agree that one unified list might be better in the long run (we want to make this as simple as possible), but I'm hesitant to say that a table is the way to do it. There are only a few people who are going to be on multiple lists (and of those, I think I'd likely be the only one on both the kittbash and 'skope lists) so it might be better to have them in a single post, but still separate.

[Randomdays]

As someone who does almost nothing but porting over work from other systems to FF, I've always worried about things like that. Some of the things I do are fan meshes, others official game meshes. Where I can I 've tried to contact the fan creators and I always include a readme listing the original creators. For both those sources and for FF , it gets harder as time goes on with people vanishing from the scene, to contact them. I'm thankful that the mods have allowed my releases to go up. My main goal was not only to do meshes that I would enjoy seeing in game, but also to post them for others to give back a bit for the 1000's of meshes and skins done.

As for EA in Bearded's Civ5 export thread - they might/ might not care about porting over their work to FF, but they and Marvel might care a bit more about bring content into their new spiffy Civ5.

My only two other thoughts are these -  One, I kind of missed the whole IPS thing a few years ago, but I remember hearing he tried reporting websites hosting Marvel/ DC skins to the comic companies, trying to get the sites shutdown out of spite. I never heard exactly what ticked him off but I think it was someone hexing/ kitbashing his work

Second, I remember in 2003 back when things were starting to roll and the main site was the Skindex. Then Marvel gave a cease and desist  letter to the page host and he had to shut down. He was just a normal guy with a dayjob and a love for the the game and he couldn't risk a lawsuit. One of Marvel's many stupid moves towards their fans over the last few years, and they probably don't care about FF anymore, but as far as I know they never changed their stance on the subject. With an average of about 30 visitors to the main game forum, and a game with outdated graphics from so long ago, they've probably forgotten about FF.

[Cyber Burn]

I know that Murs stated in his skin thread that he didn't care about credits, which is his right, but personally, I think giving credit for what you are using should absolutely be given. When skinning, we give credit to the creators of the base skins we use, when skoping, we give credit to the creators of the mesh pieces we use. I don't believe that this should be any different.

I think that keeping the two lists as similar as possible in format is the better option. Any exceptions or limitations or whatever should just be listed next to the skinner's name, or at least posted somewhere in the opening post so that it is visible.

I'm pretty sure that all of my skins include some sort of "Read_Me" file, and I think that most other skinners include them as well. I think that in regards to kitbashing, I would suggest a couple of additional rules addressing the "Read_Me" text file:

1. Make sure that you do create a "Read_Me" file.
2. Make sure that your "Read_Me" file states the name(s) of which skin(s) were used (Kitbashed).
2. Make sure proper credit is given in your "Read_Me" file. For example, if you are kitbashing my skins, make sure you give me credit for what I did, but also make sure to give credit to the creator of the base skin(s) that I used.

Again, this is just a suggestion, but with most skinners using some sort of base skin (Admittedly, many use their own now), I think that credit should be given in that respect as well.

I really don't want to bog this down with additional rules, I just want to make sure credit is given where it's due.