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Author Topic: TNT Titans  (Read 3152 times)

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2018, 07:35:41 AM »
Yeah, this is a pretty odd thing. I don't know.

Also, is it just me or does their Starfire look like an African-American hooker with he dreadlock-ish hair and white fur coat?!?!   :blink:

It is most certainly not just you. That comment has been made by quite a few people online. Some people think that's an offensive comparison, but I don't think it is, I think it's just accurate.

I'm not even a big fan of Starfire and I'm still mildly irked at how much they've botched the character. She doesn't even look like she would act like Starfire, which is a big part of why I don't like it. DC has proven they can change up the ethnicity and still nail the character (Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman is a good example)
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2018, 03:12:18 PM »
From the little they've shown, Starfire acts nothing like she does in the comics. This one seems more into cutting loose on anything and anyone, something the comic version would never do. Also, between the hooker clothes and the strike-out-at-all attitude, I don't see any of the "help-others"/touch of innocence that has always been a hallmark of the comic Starfire.

As for Robin, why is he hanging out in a warehouse trying to create "robin-rangs"?!? He should already know how a "a-rang" is made after his time with Bats. This whole thing is a mess...and that's from someone who enjoyed Tromeo and Juliet...
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2018, 10:24:19 PM »
Yeah, this was worse than I expected.  And I expected it to be pretty bad.  It's like they were away the Titans can be pretty mature at times, but read "mature" as "as dark as possible."  Eh no.  We don't need the blood and swear and the doom and gloom.  You you guys aren't getting it at all.

And Starfire--yeesh.  I don't even care what ethnicity plays a orange skinned space alien, as long as she is an orange skinned space alien and acts like the character.  They managed to botch both of those things, it seemed.

Fortunately I watched the Young Justice: Outside trailer after this one and it made me feel all kinds of better.  At least SOMEONE knows how to do superheroes.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2018, 03:29:40 PM »
Speaking of the Titans... Sounds like the real team (the 2000s cartoon, not this edgy garbage) is returning for a sixth season.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2018, 11:57:13 AM »
Speaking of the Titans... Sounds like the real team (the 2000s cartoon, not this edgy garbage) is returning for a sixth season.

Indeed. What a time to be alive.

In any case, I just read that apparently Geoff Johns has defended Titans' forced edginess by comparing it to the Marv Wolfman/George Perez Teen Titans run.  Curious if anyone here's got anything to say about it. I think it's a bit of a dopey comparison, it's a like bit like comparing Batman & Robin (the movie, of course, not the comic book) to the Adam West Batman tv show. In both cases, the tone, aesthetic, approach and "mission statement" as it were, do not appear similar, IMO.

I'm an unabashed fan of Johns, warts and all (and as a writer he does have some warts) but I am iffy on him making a statement like that because you gotta know you're gonna cheese off fans of the original Titans comics who are going to take umbrage with the comparison because of their fondness for the material.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2018, 03:55:42 PM »
Yeah, that's a complete cop out.  The New Titans was a mature series in its way, and it certainly had plenty of drama (perfect for a teen-aimed book), but it also had a cast of heroic characters who, despite their issues, acted like heroes.  It also had a sense of joy and wonder..  Robin certainly wasn't killing people, and the overall tone wasn't really all that dark, other than specific storylines (Terra).
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2018, 08:13:49 PM »
Tbf... Or rather not, for Geoff John's to be making any sort of defense of "lol over the top violence makes my stories mature" is perfectly in character for him, if nothing else. Don't get me wrong, the man can write, but Johns LOVES some gratuitous violence for his more "mature" stories like Infinite Crisis.

Me, I don't mind darker and more mature Titans stories. Hell, I'd *love* that type of series, and it can work well. But filling your content with random violence and curse words is the hallmark of immature content, not the reverse.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2018, 10:50:24 PM »
Yeah, that's a complete cop out.  The New Titans was a mature series in its way, and it certainly had plenty of drama (perfect for a teen-aimed book), but it also had a cast of heroic characters who, despite their issues, acted like heroes.  It also had a sense of joy and wonder..  Robin certainly wasn't killing people, and the overall tone wasn't really all that dark, other than specific storylines (Terra).

Nightwing and Starfire being shown in bed together was also considered racy for the time.

Quote
Tbf... Or rather not, for Geoff John's to be making any sort of defense of "lol over the top violence makes my stories mature" is perfectly in character for him, if nothing else. Don't get me wrong, the man can write, but Johns LOVES some gratuitous violence for his more "mature" stories like Infinite Crisis.

Me, I don't mind darker and more mature Titans stories. Hell, I'd *love* that type of series, and it can work well. But filling your content with random violence and curse words is the hallmark of immature content, not the reverse.

I'd say that's fair. Johns puts excessive violence in....I think....everything he's ever written for DC. At least everything I've read. He's making a Stargirl show though. That might be more "wholesome".
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2018, 01:59:37 PM »
Ha, fair point SS, but racy is one thing, dark is something else.

Yep, very true, 'Mato.  Johns is one of the poster children of gratuitous violence in modern comics.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2018, 08:06:24 PM »
So. Has anyone bit the bullet and suffered this abomination yet? I ask because I'm waffling on how much I hate myself.

Offline kkhohoho

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2018, 03:05:29 PM »
Not exactly. But someone did put the whole "**** BATMAN!" scene up on Youtube. Case you don't want to be blinded by the sheer horribleness (and I don't blame you), Robin basically maims an entire gang and quite possibly kills some random f***er.  Because EDGY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1jhAEfFc0Y

Also, Batman is apparently a killer in this show. Just a FYI.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2018, 11:26:46 PM »
Yeah, I heard about that. The Batman being a killer and Robin possibly being a killer part. Not the Youtube part.

Snyder Batman?

In any case, yeah, I'll be seeing it at some point, but I don't know when. DC Universe streaming service isn't being picked up in Canada and the show's coming to Netflix in other territories. Last I checked, they haven't said when. Which I'm fine with for now, I have other (in some cases better) things to watch and do in the meantime.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2018, 02:21:05 PM »
Yeah.....Batman is a killer too, on top of all the other awfulness?  Nope.  I wish I could not watch it twice.  :P
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2018, 04:46:40 PM »
No joke, I keep opening the page to watch it, but I can't bring myself to do it. It's such a betrayal of the source material.

Offline kkhohoho

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2018, 12:12:29 PM »
So apparently this show has 81% on Rotten Tomatoes.

why
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2018, 02:59:33 PM »
Because people are morons.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2018, 03:16:22 PM »
Apparently the general consensus is that it has a really rocky -- maybe even horrible -- start, but it gets better later on. Not sure if that's still worth an endorsement.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2018, 04:58:43 PM »
So apparently this show has 81% on Rotten Tomatoes.

why

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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2019, 03:43:45 PM »
So. I finally bit the bullet and marathoned Titans last week, up through the then-recent season 2 episode "Conner." I'm partway into the current episode right now, and here are my thoughts.

Season 1 was basically all I expected it to be. A gory, language filled mess where everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, kills people. That fits with the show's narrative for the season (the season is about Trigon and the temptation of darker impulses), but looking back I honestly feel they chose the narrative to fit the gore rather than the other way around. I don't HATE it like I was expecting to, but I do not blame anyone for immediately dropping the show.

HOWEVER.

Season 2 is a MUCH different show. To be clear, there's still death happening, mostly at the hands of season villain Deathstroke (he is an assassin) but none to the level we saw even early on last season. The characters are more fun, they actually call themselves Titans and hang out at essentially Titans Tower (though without the T shape) and I love the dynamic of the older Titans (Dick, Hawk, Dove, Troia, Starfire) mentoring the younger ones (Jason Todd, Beast Boy, Raven, Rose Wilson). THIS is what I wanted from a live action Titans show... minus a plot death I hate but whatever.

My advise is, if you're interested, skip to about 35 minutes into s2 episode 1. That's where Season 2 basically starts (the first 35 minutes should have been S1's finale) and it's a better show. If you don't have DC Universe yet and want to use a free month to check it out, I'd wait for a few more weeks for more episodes to come out, but otherwise... I can honestly say it's an ok show now.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2019, 03:12:00 PM »
Sorry to hear you didn't get much enjoyment out of season 1, but it was definitely not going to be your cup of tea to begin with. I enjoyed Titans S1 quite a bit more. Glad to see you're enjoying season 2 more, I think it's pretty neat myself as well.

Quote
I'm partway into the current episode

Somehow I think you might have some opinions about that final episode  :P

I never bothered to discuss my feelings on this show in depth at the time since nobody else here seemed to have seen it and everyone else seemed to decide in advance they hated it, but I'll just say I think Brendan Thwaites is a pitch perfect "Nightwing" (or to be more precise, older, more independent D. Grayson); well not so much the excessive violence, but the rest of it, yeah, he's pretty much what I never knew I wanted to see in live action (and I kept thinking "Wow, it's really been Burt Ward, Chris O'Donnell and literally nothing else in the realm of live action this entire time. That's kinda insane). The show deserves some serious cred for actually making Jason Todd interesting (which few creators have done across any medium) and, speaking for myself, I got a huge kick out of the The Doom Patrol (clearly I'm not the only one, because their spinoff show seemed to have gone over well, and made me forget all about this show at the time) and the recurring villains in S1 (I don't really want to spoil who they are for those who don't know) stole the whole season for me. I cracked up every time they showed up.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

More recently, I was quite won over with Connor. He's kinda great.

But the part that fascinated and surprised me the most was Ian Glenn as Bruce Wayne. I initially thought it a very unconventional casting choice (and I still think it is), thinking he was too old and soft-spoken and that he would have been better suited to play Alfred, but lately I've tried to contextualize it as them attempting to reconcile the age Bruce would have had to have been with the age Grayson is now (unlike the comics where they blatantly cheat with comic book time) but how the character is written and performed really pleasantly surprised me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 03:14:54 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2019, 08:30:57 PM »
Dude, real talk, I busted out laughing at the club scene when I realized what Glenn was doing. It was pretty great.

I think my biggest issue with the killing in context was how blatantly it was juxtaposed against normal superhero ethics. Spoilers for season 1 (which I still say skip) but Dick Grayson's whole reason for self destruction is that his actions led to the death of his family's killer, and his doomsday scenario is Batman finally taking a life. And Gar's kill is the result of losing control of the tiger's instincts and it haunts him. And yet, hospital full of brainwashed cultists? Burn them to the ground Starfire, no moral quandary to dwell on there I guess. It's hard to shut that criticism out of my mind when the show itself brings up the issue.

That and... I'm sorry but some of the violence was cartoonish and immature. The shears scene comes to mind as particularly childish.

But back to the latest episode...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, just saying it, Jason Todd is one of my favorites in the show. Dick's daddy issues can get exhausting and it's nice having a character that knows Bruce the same way and can call Dick out.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2019, 03:48:39 AM »
Well, I was thinking about it last night, and a lot of live action adaptations of superhero properties do have the heroes kill enemies (even when they don't in other iterations). Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, pretty much everybody in the MCU if we're being honest. The tone and the R-rated violence is what makes it seem forced and "edgy". I do like that they try to justify it in universe, but yeah, you could say it's a case of having your cake and eating it too. Go back in time to before the show premiered, and Johns defended the show by saying "Well, the Wolfman/Perez comic pushed the envelop too". Interestingly, I don't remember hearing about them saying "Don't worry guys, there's an in story justification for all this" so maybe you're right, maybe Geoff Johns, the gore hound that he is, wanted to be like that guy from Shortpacked and told the showrunners "make it happen" and they were like "Well crap."

I kinda give Starfire a soft pass because 1. She's an alien 2. She was introduced with amnesia and 3. The show seems to have taken significant liberties with her and the other Tameranians (though oddly, in "Bruce Wayne" they seem to be trying to add more in from other iterations of the character...maybe they're trying to make her more like the Starfire of the comics and cartoons at this point) Than again, Superboy didn't know who he was right away and he wasn't going around killing people....maybe that's one of the reasons I like Superboy in this....

I kinda think of the first season as an origin story, where it takes at least one season or movie to get to the actual premise of the property. Something quite a few superhero adaptations do. The one I most think of the Punisher's story in Daredevil S2, but that's probably a terrible example, because I remember you saying you're very much not a fan of the Punisher. So I don't know if that's any excuse, probably not, but it is sorta how I contextualize the show going from season 1 to 2.

I'll definitely agree with you on one thing: bulk of the S2 premiere  absolutely should have been the end of the first season. It definitely felt a bit like the days of Smallville where every season ended with a cliffhanger that took exactly one episode to resolve.

I should mention it's been almost a year since I've seen season one, so if my memory of S1 sucks (and it kinda does, I couldn't quite remember if Beast Boy killed anyone; I thought he did it in animal form; apparently that part really did happen.) that's why.

Also if it sounds like I'm flip flopping, it might be because I was really tired last night when I posted that last message and my mind is getting a bit goofy. Maybe I shouldn't post late at night so much...  :wacko:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 04:13:19 AM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2019, 04:16:43 PM »
Starfire doing it doesn't bother me, just like Raven's kills don't bother me. Even Gar's kill, much as I lambaste the show for EVERYONE killing, is presented as accidental and it haunts him.

Again, the glaring issue is Dick. The entire season is him moralizing for letting his family's killer die. He didn't even commit the act and it haunts him to the point he basically self destructs. And yet... "Hey Dick, should I burn all these brainwashed people (not to mention any other prisoners) alive in a gruesome fashion?" "Sure Starfire, I'll be over here having a personal moment while burning my Robin costume"

My issue, ultimately, is the consistency. Death happens in the MCU, but we don't get Iron Man moralizing the entire second movie about how killing Iron Monger haunts him and killing should never happen.

Again, don't have your doomsday scenario for Robin be Batman breaking and killing the Joker (a psychotic murderer) while he kills others with impunity.

That said, I meant to mention... The cast is great. Issues with the writing aside, the cast is pretty pitch perfect in terms of the characters and in terms of appearance and outfits (at least in season 2).

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2019, 02:42:53 PM »
I somehow missed this reply. That's actually good food for thought. Dick killing people, whether he likes it or not, is a little bit of a hole the creators dug themselves. It kinda goes back to a recurring problem with DC: they want these characters they love and grew up with and remember, but....for some reason they imagining them as these versions of them that are ultra-violent and grimdark in a way that doesn't actually reflect the prior source material. That's Geoff Johns. He wants his Hal and his Barry and  for some reason Black Adam is just shredding folks (52 is still legit one of the best things DC's ever put out though)  :thumbup:...that's John's body of work and it's pretty much Titans. A Geoff Johns reboot of the Wolf-Perez Titans. Though, going off what you did, even Johns tends to have some inherent consistancy. He just really likes gore and killing for some reason. Brad Meltzer was the same way with his "love letter" to Silver Age DC stories....Identity Crisis.  :huh:  And then there's Zach Synder and his take on Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman - let's be honest. People liked WW in BVS because of Gal Gadot. The script was pretty much "cold afloof aggressive warrior, lunging at a monster so she can stab it with a sword" exactly the version of WW that Johns was often criticized for. Patty Jenkins and, to a degree, Whedon, course corrected on that. Talking about the acting, it's like Ben Affleck. I'm of the opinion he did a tremendous job with the material (I believed you'd said something similar) - it just so happens the material was bad DKR fanfic.  :cool: (Mind you, I'm of the opinion that DKR wasn't that good to begin with, but I read it around 2009 or so, aka WAY too late to get much out of it.

Touching on the cast, I love pretty much everyone. Except Starfire. I don't think it's necessarily the actress's fault, but I get the distinct feeling the creative team really doesn't get Starfire (or feels the need to change her - and then start changing her back in S2). She's kinda like that time Oliver Queen in Arrow said the name Green Arrow was "lame" - and then calls himself Green Arrow several seasons later.

Also, I can't stress how much I love Connor in this. It's actually crazy how entertaining he is. Reminds me a little bit of Shazam. That kind of fun energy. Don't really need to see Connor's butt every other episode though...   :mellow: Also, genuinely surprised  we haven't seen Dick Grayson's butt. I mean it's adult Dick Grayson. Modern DC is all about that Nightwing booty. (maybe they're waiting until he actually becomes Nightwing?  :huh: )


Going back to the fanfic writing, Titans has a bit of that fanfic quality, and S2 a bit of that course correction...it also has some downright weird moments, particularly where our good buddy Dick Grayson is concerned. Case in point, now that another episode or two has come out:  Jericho, what was going on there?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:43:18 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline daglob

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2019, 03:24:17 PM »
Someplace I saw a comment by an "old" (started in the '80s) writer who was puzzled about what was going on these days. He said that, when he started out, he had all these really cool ideas of things to do with (and to) characters, but the editors stopped him. He resented it at the time, but years later he thanked the deity that they stopped him from ruining his career. He though that kind of editorial stewardship of these characters is gone; the existing "powers that be" will let the present creators do anything because it's "edgy and dark and cool" with nary a thought about the effects those things will have on other characters or the future of the character. When did gritty, unrelenting darkness and casual (or any kind, really) killing become "cool"? I mean, I like me some "noir" fiction and grew up reading pulp reprints (most of these guys are... "babies"... compared to The Spider), but c'om.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2019, 03:56:23 PM »
Neat anecdote. I kinda wish you remembered which writer it was. But it does speak to something I've been saying (or at least thinking over in my head for a very long time) and many a comic fan knows this. Tvtropes certainly knows it. And good ol' Jeff Goldblum in Jurrassic Park knows it "You spent all this time thinking about whether you could, you never stopped to ask if you should?" "Protection From Editors." Once upon a time (and sometimes these days) you had editors who say "You can't do this because it's terrible/it's too violent/The Comics Code says so/you just don't put that kind of smut in a superhero comic!" These days it's more like "Yeah, let's just throw it in -- it's not like kids are going to be reading this, right?" This ended up biting DC in the butt with the New 52 for a hot little minute, and then time went on.

But an editor doesn't just say "you can't put that in there - it's too violent" or "You can't use that character - Bendis/Batman Begins/Matt Reeves "The Batman" movie is using that character" Sometimes it means "Hey this script you turned in - it's pretty sloppy. Let's tighten it up a bit eh?" (Legends of Tomorrow even references this with Mick's novel.) Perfect example - Harry Potter. I was no superfan of the series but I appreciated it and some of the plot points in it are pretty darn satisfying. But my favorite experience was reading "Half-Blood Prince" and seeing J.K. Rowling tie into all the little plot points about Voldemort we saw in earlier books and make it make sense. Then she got superfamous and wrote "Fantastic Beasts" and ended up with "Fantastic Beasts - The Crimes of Grindelwald" - a so-bad-it's-good (at best) hodgepodge of bad story structure, bad handling of a extending cast of characters, new ideas being thrown in pretty rabidly without a good sense of "what role does this serve in the story?" Blatant contradictions of well-established magic rules without the one-line handwave to justify it, and retcons - so many retcons. Oh and a few babies die for no particularly important reason. So really not a "Harry Potter" story as we knew it. It was watching J.K. ("Just Kidding") turn into prequel-era George Lucas before your very eyes. It was really something. That is why you need an editor (so did George, for that matter.)

I...have to assume I've said this before, but I genuinely am of the opinion that the animated adaptations of many of our favorite comic nerd properties (and some of the live action movies - the MCU for example) turned out as good as they are - superior to the comics in many instances - because you had restrictions that said "you can't have too much violence, you can't have too much death, you can't have lots of raunchy material and such" and the writers had to get clever. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini on Batman TAS had to get clever with very good results. Those elements, like special effects, are a tool - not a crutch. Writers of superhero fare never needed death to make interesting stories - in many cases they did end up writing some - but they were capable of telling stories with interesting drama regardless.

My favorite episode of JLU by a WIDE margin is "Patriot Act". Today I realized exactly why -  It's the Death of Superman without the death of Superman. It's just a bunch of heroes out of their element, fighting a big monster that they absolutely cannot beat in a straight fight, and trying to avoid being killed by him and avoid any bystanders being killed. The fact that monster is not, in fact, Doomsday, but General Eiling in the body of the Shaggy Man, who really wants to debate the "threat" of metahumans while trying to kill them all, ends up being big part of why this episodes works. Nobody kills, nobody dies, and in the end someone talks the monster into leaving. I never felt cheated by that ending because it was more interesting than someone punching a big monster until it dies. It's perfect. It's heroes being heroes and trying to do the right thing, with some laughs and some thrills along the way. (I was not particularly surprised to learn, it's written by the same writer who wrote "Flash and Substance" a quite comparable Flash-versus-The-Rogues story that's also one of my favorites from JLU). It's perfect JLU, it's perfect DC, and I genuinely want to show it to every single writer who works on Marvel and DC projects who thinks they "need" to kill characters to tell a "good story" to sit down, watch this half hour of DC superheroes and ask them "Tell me why you can't write something like this?" And if they say "Noone dies in this. In my version a whole bunch of people die." And if there's nothing clever, or interesting or well written, or artistic in there, I am always going to say "Your version is exploitative trash." I like clever stories. I like a Slade Wilson gives the good guys a hard time because he's clever (and Lex Luthor doing the same; and a Joker doing the same, and The Shredder doing the same, and Megatron doing the same) I don't need Slade Wilson beating the Justice League effortless in Identity Crisis because a bunch of guys working at DC really want me to know Slade Wilson is a bada$$. I already know Slade Wilson's a bada$$. He's been a bada$$ for about as long as Arnold's saying "I'll be back." I want to see Slade Wilson be clever.

And if your story's not going to be clever, it should probably be fun. A lot of older comics are, such as Golden Age comics, early Silver Age Marvel comics, many of which are blatantly pulp Sci-Fi yarns with a Superhero thrown in (such as the first appearances of Ant-Man and Thor) and they're marvelously nutty and sometimes a little clever. That kinda stuff.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 05:42:45 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2019, 03:36:13 PM »
Hrm. Episode was good, but I could have done without that ending. It was overly gory and went on way longer than it needed to (you could have cut it down the the initial throw, and the blood splatter bit at the end and it'd have had the same effect. Heck, it'd have had more impact because of what you're not shown.) S2 Titans is better about it, but that nonsense is still around.

That said, there's a mystery I'm not sure they actually solved or if we're meant to think they did

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Offline daglob

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2019, 04:23:51 PM »
Might be an homage.

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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: TNT Titans
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2019, 01:26:52 AM »
My favorite episode of JLU by a WIDE margin is "Patriot Act". Today I realized exactly why -  It's the Death of Superman without the death of Superman. It's just a bunch of heroes out of their element, fighting a big monster that they absolutely cannot beat in a straight fight, and trying to avoid being killed by him and avoid any bystanders being killed. The fact that monster is not, in fact, Doomsday, but General Eiling in the body of the Shaggy Man, who really wants to debate the "threat" of metahumans while trying to kill them all, ends up being big part of why this episodes works. Nobody kills, nobody dies, and in the end someone talks the monster into leaving. I never felt cheated by that ending because it was more interesting than someone punching a big monster until it dies. It's perfect. It's heroes being heroes and trying to do the right thing, with some laughs and some thrills along the way. (I was not particularly surprised to learn, it's written by the same writer who wrote "Flash and Substance" a quite comparable Flash-versus-The-Rogues story that's also one of my favorites from JLU). It's perfect JLU, it's perfect DC, and I genuinely want to show it to every single writer who works on Marvel and DC projects who thinks they "need" to kill characters to tell a "good story" to sit down, watch this half hour of DC superheroes and ask them "Tell me why you can't write something like this?" And if they say "Noone dies in this. In my version a whole bunch of people die." And if there's nothing clever, or interesting or well written, or artistic in there, I am always going to say "Your version is exploitative trash." I like clever stories. I like a Slade Wilson gives the good guys a hard time because he's clever (and Lex Luthor doing the same; and a Joker doing the same, and The Shredder doing the same, and Megatron doing the same) I don't need Slade Wilson beating the Justice League effortless in Identity Crisis because a bunch of guys working at DC really want me to know Slade Wilson is a bada$$. I already know Slade Wilson's a bada$$. He's been a bada$$ for about as long as Arnold's saying "I'll be back." I want to see Slade Wilson be clever.

And if your story's not going to be clever, it should probably be fun. A lot of older comics are, such as Golden Age comics, early Silver Age Marvel comics, many of which are blatantly pulp Sci-Fi yarns with a Superhero thrown in (such as the first appearances of Ant-Man and Thor) and they're marvelously nutty and sometimes a little clever. That kinda stuff.

Excellently said, SS, and I agree entirely.  "Patriot Act" is an excellent episode, and it is a pretty perfect distillation of what makes JLU in general so fantastic, and what makes superhero stories good.  The gap between it and so much of what passes for storytelling is depressing, and it certainly reveals the counterintuitive benefit of having editors and a certain level of censorship.
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