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Author Topic: Marvel Movies  (Read 43031 times)

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #90 on: August 10, 2015, 04:01:33 PM »
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.

If most people aren't interested in them, it's because there hasn't been a decent movie to make them interested. Did you really think the general public was interested in Ant-Man or Guardians of the Galaxy before Marvel made movies about them? If Marvel  -- and not Fox, but Marvel Studios; people will be drawn to it via Marvel Studios alone -- can make a good Fantastic Four movie, then you've got my guarantee that most people will be interested in them, simply because they'd be the stars of a good Marvel movie.

But aside from that, they're far from 'the worst characters'. They may not always be compelling protagonists, but the original Lee&Kirby comics are classics for a reason, and on top of that, they still work well as supporting characters in the larger MU. They deserve at least one good movie, and I think that if Marvel got the rights back, they could make one. (Though I'd really just want Pixar to take a crack it. The Incredibles is basically the best FF movie ever made, so imagine what they could do with an actual FF movie.)

Actually,Marvel made those BECAUSE they couldnt make FF,Spider-man or X-men.See how it all goes full circle?
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #91 on: August 10, 2015, 07:55:29 PM »
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.

Not true at all.  There is an excellent Fantastic Four movie that did quite well at the box office and is beloved by fans - it just happens to be called The Incredibles.  Between the power sets, the family dynamic, the humour and tone, that's the movie any makers of a Fantastic Four film should be watching.  It can be done, because Pixar did it.

Offline spydermann93

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2015, 08:33:26 PM »
Not true at all.  There is an excellent Fantastic Four movie that did quite well at the box office and is beloved by fans - it just happens to be called The Incredibles.  Between the power sets, the family dynamic, the humour and tone, that's the movie any makers of a Fantastic Four film should be watching.  It can be done, because Pixar did it.

I LOVE THE INCREDIBLES!! :wub: :thumbup: :wub:

Such a great movie :D

Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #93 on: August 10, 2015, 08:56:26 PM »
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.

Not true at all.  There is an excellent Fantastic Four movie that did quite well at the box office and is beloved by fans - it just happens to be called The Incredibles.  Between the power sets, the family dynamic, the humour and tone, that's the movie any makers of a Fantastic Four film should be watching.  It can be done, because Pixar did it.

Lol. 

Anyway, I know this is still a minority opinion, but I didn't much mind the first F4 franchise.  Despite many problems, at least they seemed to put forth a more valiant effort.  It seem more adult.  More fun.  Julian McMahon's arrogance seemed like what Doom would be.  Very calculating.  The relationships of the group seemed more organic and realistic.  They really played out the over-explaining Reed does.  They showed how much the Thing does not like being the Thing.  They showed Johnny's not simply being a hothead but a do first kinda guy.  I don't know how much this new version was able to capture all that.  Yeah, they were far from perfect movies and did a lot of things wrong(especially the sequel), but again, I think their attempt was much better.  I don't even know if these guys were even trying.

Offline BWPS

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #94 on: August 10, 2015, 09:30:26 PM »
The Incredibles isn't the Fantastic Four, it's a totally different thing. None of the characters are alike. It's a completely different family dynamic. It's mostly different powers. It might be inspired by it, but they very smartly decided to make it completely different.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »
The Incredibles isn't the Fantastic Four, it's a totally different thing. None of the characters are alike. It's a completely different family dynamic. It's mostly different powers. It might be inspired by it, but they very smartly decided to make it completely different.

Really? Because from where I'm standing, they're pretty darn similar. Bob has the Thing's strength, Elasti-girl has Reed's stretching powers, Violet has Sue's invisibility and force-fields, and while Dash doesn't have the same abilities as Johnny, he's still an impetuous hothead. On top of that, they're a family who end up having strange adventures, they have a super-powerful baby, and their arch-enemy is a super-genius who is linked rather heavily to the lead hero. Yes, they were inspired by the FF, but they took such a heavy amount of inspiration that it could be considered an FF film in spirit if nothing else.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 04:37:16 AM by kkhohoho »
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Offline BWPS

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #96 on: August 10, 2015, 10:45:02 PM »
Yeah but thankfully they changed enough so that it was actually good is what I'm saying. They didn't have an unlikable completely unbelievable super-genius, they didn't have the unlikable weak damsel in distress trope character, they didn't have the unlikable cocky bully who thinks he's God's gift to the world, and they didn't have a depressed monster who is actually a halfway good character except the fact that he's some kind of stupid-talking jabroni. It looked like they had changed all of that for this new movie which seemed smart, but it seems like they still made it bad. I'll see it in the dollar theater and let everyone know if it's good or bad and if so how much of that is the source material's fault.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #97 on: August 10, 2015, 11:00:10 PM »
Yeah but thankfully they changed enough so that it was actually good is what I'm saying. They didn't have an unlikable completely unbelievable super-genius, they didn't have the unlikable weak damsel in distress trope character, they didn't have the unlikable cocky bully who thinks he's God's gift to the world, and they didn't have a depressed monster who is actually a halfway good character except the fact that he's some kind of stupid-talking jabroni. It looked like they had changed all of that for this new movie which seemed smart, but it seems like they still made it bad. I'll see it in the dollar theater and let everyone know if it's good or bad and if so how much of that is the source material's fault.

...Huh.

Look, I can see where you're coming from, but while the FF aren't exactly my favorite heroes, I do not think they're the horrible, asinine characters you seem to think they are, and because of that, I still believe they deserve a good movie, and so long as Marvel knows what they're doing, I also believe that they can make one so long as they get the rights.
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #98 on: August 11, 2015, 12:27:56 AM »
The F 4 are actually great characters if they just get done right.  They've been popular for so long for a reason.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #99 on: August 11, 2015, 01:12:56 AM »
The F 4 are actually great characters if they just get done right.  They've been popular for so long for a reason.

Exactly. Granted, they're still harder characters to make for compelling protagonists than others, but under the pen of someone like John Byrne or maybe Jonathan Hickman, it can be done. And if it can be done on the page, then it should be possible to do it on the screen.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2015, 01:47:03 AM »
Guys... It's bwps. Chill.

In all seriousness, I have no problem with the f4. I liked the last series of films well enough, despite its flaws, and I do think the potential is there... But fox has proven time and again that they cannot be trusted with these franchises, and its only in spite of fox's meddling that we have had as many decent xmen films as we've gotten. And even then, time and again fox has botched that franchise too... Wolverine Origins was a movie no one wanted to do, but fox came down and said they HAD to do an origin story... And also they HAD to set up other movies that ended up being totally different then Origins introduced.

So... Yeah, I can and do blame fox for this, rather than the f4 itself. That's like blaming superman because Returns wasn't good.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2015, 04:12:35 AM »
Yeah,Wolverine origins...but also first 2 movies,First class,and DOFP.So Fox did a pretty good job with X-men.And they would be pretty impossible in MCU and nobody wants AvX the Movie.
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Offline detourne_me

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2015, 04:38:46 AM »
I really like Jey's idea of Phase Four being centered around F4 and Spidey. I'm sure you'd have doctor strange, black panther, and captain marvel sequels too,  they could be the next generation of Avengers. With Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Vision being the vets leading them.

I think the hardest thing about casting the F4 has to be finding someone for sue that has chemistry with reed, and star power for the movie to succeed. In my opinion Jessica Alba was a bit miscast in the first movies, while the rest of the cast was pretty good.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #103 on: August 11, 2015, 11:26:16 AM »
Captorch Humerica,anyone?
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #104 on: August 11, 2015, 05:45:02 PM »
 :rolleyes:

Again, my point is that we've got good X-men films IN SPITE of Fox, rather than because of. Fox is also responsible for rushing X3 out the door with a director who didn't know the material and who has openly admitted to only ever watching the X-men cartoon. First Class also faced incredibly tight deadlines, the advertisements were atrocious, and it's only thanks to a good director and talented leads that the movie did well at all. All three of the other films were helmed by Bryan Singer, whose original successes have allowed him to keep Fox off his back.

Contrast that with Marvel Studios. True, there are ugly reports of Studio interference driving away directors there too, but I get the impression it's more along the lines of "This is our master plan for the next ten years, we need you to build up X Y and Z in your movie," rather than "We're going to pennypinch you, give you insane deadlines, and botch all our own movie's advertisements"

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #105 on: August 11, 2015, 05:51:37 PM »
I liked the first Iron Man movie.They found a washed up hero,got a washed up actor to play him.Have him fight his darker version.Throw in a Stan Lee cameo.And it strangly worked.
THEN THEY DID THAT EXACT THING 10 MORE TIMES!How is that good storytelling?
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #106 on: August 11, 2015, 06:04:12 PM »
Because they managed to have a larger narrative that stretches across a dozen or more movies, something that has never been done before and is actually pretty amazing? Like... I know you don't care for Marvel movies man, but don't discount their accomplishments just because you don't like them. Are they flawed? Yes, and I think the flaws are beginning to show and Marvel will have to step up their game over the next few years. But I feel like the people in charge are willing to do that for the sake of the characters.

Don't get me wrong, I like the X-men movies, and as long as they stay in competent hands, I'm fine with them being off on their own. But Marvel has churned out success after success since they started, and I can't help but feel like they should have F4 back too.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #107 on: August 11, 2015, 06:13:06 PM »
About the FF I have to agree,Marvel probably couldnt do worst then Fox.
About MCU,to each his own.Thou,they arent the first who combined separate into whole.DCAU did it before.
Seeing we got Civil war coming up,I wonder will New Warriors show up?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 06:14:59 PM by Spade »
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Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #108 on: August 11, 2015, 06:22:38 PM »
The Marvel Universe is huge.  They need to handle it in chunks.  Right now they are doing Avengers on the big screen and Defenders on the small screen.  If they do get the FF back, that should be their next big screen project and either have Blade or Ghost Rider on the small screen or maybe even the New Warriors on the small screen.
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #109 on: August 11, 2015, 07:07:25 PM »
I liked the first Iron Man movie.They found a washed up hero,got a washed up actor to play him.Have him fight his darker version.Throw in a Stan Lee cameo.And it strangly worked.
THEN THEY DID THAT EXACT THING 10 MORE TIMES!How is that good storytelling?

Not even close to the truth.  But then, I'm fairly certain from dancing this dance before that you have very different ideas about what constitutes good storytelling. 

The Incredibles isn't the Fantastic Four, it's a totally different thing. None of the characters are alike. It's a completely different family dynamic. It's mostly different powers. It might be inspired by it, but they very smartly decided to make it completely different.

At first I thought this was a joke.  3 of the four main characters have exactly the same powers as the Fan 4, and the fourth has a similar personality.  The family dynamic is different, but the idea of it is the same.  And your characterizations of the Fan 4 from the other post are all the worst interpretations of the characters from 50 years of history.

Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #110 on: August 12, 2015, 01:10:20 AM »
About the FF I have to agree,Marvel probably couldnt do worst then Fox.
About MCU,to each his own.Thou,they arent the first who combined separate into whole.DCAU did it before.
Seeing we got Civil war coming up,I wonder will New Warriors show up?

Film and TV are not the same thing. TV shows have crossovers all the time... X-men in Spiderman, TMNT in Power Rangers... hell, Martial Law, Early Edition and Texas Ranger all crossed over with each other at one point (yes, I am old enough to remember that.) but film? The only films to keep continuity across multiple films are either films from a single franchise, or the occasional wink and nod to other franchises. So yes, DCAU did it before Marvel did, but that's like DC comics did the crossover thing 40 years before the DCAU... it's a completely different medium

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #111 on: August 12, 2015, 03:44:26 AM »
Yeah, 'Mato is right.  The MCU is the first set of films to do what only comics have done before, create a massive, sprawling universe with shared continuity across multiple titles and by multiple creators.  There's nothing to compare to those types of comics in the history of literature, and there's nothing to compare to the MCU in cinema.  It's a breathtaking accomplishment.

As for similarities in plot, I'd say they're exaggerated, but even more importantly, similar plots are to be expected with comics, a genre where the content is so archetypal.  The Marvel movies succeed, both for fans, and, more importantly, for average folks, through the strength of their characters.  My wife, my mother, my sister, my niece, and a huge range of people who never bothered with action movies and couldn't care less about comics have fallen head over heels in love with the MCU.  They follow movie news, look forward to new editions, and are generally more invested in these than any other film franchise I've ever seen.  They love these movies because they are, on the whole, well written (not too many plot holes, unlike everything WB and the other companies puts out), fun, funny, and with a great and memorable cast of characters. 

Asked to describe why she liked the movies, my wife said, "they're clever, fun, and they bring the characters to life."

In my professional opinion, these movies are, taken all-in-all, a unique work of art.  ;)
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #112 on: August 12, 2015, 04:21:16 AM »
Ah,yes,the all is connected theory.
Like in Daredevil somebody mentions there is a guy with magic hammer and hell yeah,thats  so connected to the Avengers.Almost essential.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #113 on: August 12, 2015, 04:44:55 AM »
Ah,yes,the all is connected theory.
Like in Daredevil somebody mentions there is a guy with magic hammer and hell yeah,thats  so connected to the Avengers.Almost essential.

 :rolleyes: Don't be silly, Spade.  That's the weakest connection in the bunch, but it is hardly indicative of the whole.  There is a shared universe, a shared continuity, and guest-stars, character development, and more have been shared between different franchises.  The Avengers' economy of storytelling was only possible because there was a wealth of character development available to the audience before the first scene ever played.  From minor things, like the appearance of Captain America in Thor's movies, the Falcon in Ant Man, or the like, to bigger things, like universe building moments in each film, they have about as much inter-franchise continuity as the comics themselves.  It isn't every issue that Captain America and Thor cross over, or Iron Man and Hawkeye, but the larger Universe is always there in the background.  The same is true for the films, and that is what makes them unique.

If you don't like their style, that's one thing, but it strikes me as strange to deny the obvious accomplishments of Marvel Studios.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #114 on: August 12, 2015, 04:50:10 AM »
I dont deny that movies made a TON of money,they did.
Its just that they got a bit too repetative for my taste.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #115 on: August 12, 2015, 06:00:04 AM »
And I can't fault you for that... certain issues are starting to irk me about the films as well (Mainly that we need more 3 dimensional villains like Magneto. Ultron was a great disappointment, and while Yellowjacket was fun in an "over the top evil" sort of way, well rounded he was not.) However, even with the problems, there are exceptions to every rule... I would argue Loki is much more nuanced and fleshed out than Thor is, and Alexander Pierce was neither a clone of Cap nor was he a one-note villain, and Mr. Hyde from SHIELD was given more depth than the character ever had in the comics. And Kingpin... ho boy, the Kingpin.

Again, this is stuff Marvel studios needs to work on going forward to keep from going stale... but I'd argue Fox and WB have FAR more issues than Marvel does. I'll take a bit of repetitiveness if the film is good, rather than have a garbage film that tries to pretend it's more than it is.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #116 on: August 12, 2015, 09:07:46 AM »
Ultron was dissapointing?You havent seen Malekith.
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Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #117 on: August 12, 2015, 02:27:08 PM »
Yeah, 'Mato is right.  The MCU is the first set of films to do what only comics have done before, create a massive, sprawling universe with shared continuity across multiple titles and by multiple creators.  There's nothing to compare to those types of comics in the history of literature, and there's nothing to compare to the MCU in cinema.  It's a breathtaking accomplishment.

In a nutshell Marvel is trying to do to their movies what they have been doing to their comics.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #118 on: August 12, 2015, 02:54:09 PM »
Really screw them up?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 04:43:05 PM by Spade »
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2015, 04:28:27 PM »
Really screw them up?

So who is or was making good superhero movies, Spade?  I'm sick of defending the MCU from borderline trolling, and since the burden of proof should be on the person making outrageous claims, I don't feel I should have to.  Who do you think is doing it right?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 04:30:37 PM by Talavar »