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Author Topic: Marvel Movies  (Read 42003 times)

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2015, 04:41:35 PM »
Really screw them up?

So who is or was making good superhero movies, Spade?  I'm sick of defending the MCU from borderline trolling, and since the burden of proof should be on the person making outrageous claims, I don't feel I should have to.  Who do you think is doing it right?

You know there isn't really a competition AT THIS moment?We did name a few X-men movies?And there is The Dark Knight trilogy?  ^_^
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PS Totally my fault.Forgot to add italic.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 04:44:20 PM by Spade »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2015, 05:01:55 PM »
Yeah... I like the X-men movies, but if we go through all the problems with them (and I mean the good ones like X2 and DoFP) we will be here all day. As for the Dark Knight Trilogy... again, I like the films, but perfect movies they were not. The fight scenes are muddled it's hard to see what's going on, the characters spend hours talking about their own motivations, the world is made to be so "hyper-realistic" that there is no room for over half of Batman's villains without MAJOR changes (Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Firefly, etc.), and the whole bit with "Oh, my name is Robin *wink*" was just plain mood breaking.

And again, both companies have had as many failures as successes with those franchises. For every Batman Begins, there's a Superman Returns. For every TDK, there's a Green Lantern. For Every X2, there's an X3. To say that they're "Better" as you cherry pick the best films to point to is no better than me saying the MCU has well rounded villains while only bringing up CA2 and the Daredevil show. You were more than happy to pull out Maleketh earlier (I didn't forget his dumbness, but I was going for more recent offerings) and it's a solid point.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2015, 05:07:30 PM »
Everyone had good and bad points.And for the 100000 time,I did like some of the MCU movies and elements.
But I cant really stack a different Cinematic Universe against it since THERE IS NONE as of this point.DC has only Man of Steel,which wasnt that great.Valiant universe hasnt even started.And nobody else has similar plans.But being the only one,doesnt really make them perfect.
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Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2015, 06:51:09 PM »
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Offline stumpy

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #124 on: August 12, 2015, 11:43:15 PM »
But I cant really stack a different Cinematic Universe against it since THERE IS NONE as of this point.
Which is part of what people are saying is an accomplishment in the MCU. Despite some flaws, they actually have a cinematic universe. That's not a trivial thing.

DC/Warner didn't really have a single universe in mind when it put together many of its live-action shows in the past and now they are working to catch up. I am glad they are making the attempt and I like that some of that is visible in the Arrow and Flash TV shows (and possibly elsewhere). Until the SvB movie, we won't know if they have done it on the movie side. And, really, we won't know until there is a DC movie that isn't a direct sequel to Man Of Steel.

But being the only one,doesnt really make them perfect.
I totally agree. Of course, I am not sure where anyone is actually claiming that the MCU is perfect...
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #125 on: August 12, 2015, 11:58:47 PM »
As for the Dark Knight Trilogy... again, I like the films, but perfect movies they were not. The fight scenes are muddled it's hard to see what's going on, the characters spend hours talking about their own motivations, the world is made to be so "hyper-realistic" that there is no room for over half of Batman's villains without MAJOR changes (Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Firefly, etc.), and the whole bit with "Oh, my name is Robin *wink*" was just plain mood breaking.

Urg, so very, very true.  They just depress me these days.  The "Robin" thing made me want to slap the director. :P

No one claimed that being the sole shared universe made the MCU perfect, just unique.  My point was that they've accomplished what NO OTHER ART FORM, other than comics, has done, and that is true.  However, comics are pretty far from perfect too.  For every high point, there is a low point.  For every Galactus Saga there was a Mike Murdock.  For every Captain America 2, there was an Iron Man 3.  Sure, the movies have their flaws, but the fact that they managed to make the freaking God of Thunder a successful superhero and put Captain America on screen, tossing his shield around, just like in the comics...do you remember how insurmountable those challenges seemed ten years ago?  I still marvel (forgive the pun!) at what the MCU has managed to do, even as I cringe at some of the missteps.  It's amazing, and the scope and consistency of that, especially in the chaotic world of Hollywood, is worthy of praise. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:01:35 AM by BentonGrey »
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #126 on: August 13, 2015, 02:36:48 AM »
As for the Dark Knight Trilogy... again, I like the films, but perfect movies they were not. The fight scenes are muddled it's hard to see what's going on, the characters spend hours talking about their own motivations, the world is made to be so "hyper-realistic" that there is no room for over half of Batman's villains without MAJOR changes (Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Firefly, etc.), and the whole bit with "Oh, my name is Robin *wink*" was just plain mood breaking.

Urg, so very, very true.  They just depress me these days.  The "Robin" thing made me want to slap the director. :P

No one claimed that being the sole shared universe made the MCU perfect, just unique.  My point was that they've accomplished what NO OTHER ART FORM, other than comics, has done, and that is true.  However, comics are pretty far from perfect too.  For every high point, there is a low point.  For every Galactus Saga there was a Mike Murdock.  For every Captain America 2, there was an Iron Man 3.  Sure, the movies have their flaws, but the fact that they managed to make the freaking God of Thunder a successful superhero and put Captain America on screen, tossing his shield around, just like in the comics...do you remember how insurmountable those challenges seemed ten years ago?  I still marvel (forgive the pun!) at what the MCU has managed to do, even as I cringe at some of the missteps.  It's amazing, and the scope and consistency of that, especially in the chaotic world of Hollywood, is worthy of praise.

But Benton, Iron Man 3 and Captain America 2 are both great!  :P  I think you must have meant Iron Man 2...

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #127 on: August 13, 2015, 03:01:36 AM »


 :(
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #128 on: August 13, 2015, 03:20:03 AM »


 :(

Did you want a racist yellow peril villain as the bad guy in a film viewed by millions of people? I would have liked to see the real Mandarin too, but I can understand why they went the route they did, and I especially understand that they wanted to offend as few people as possible. So I don't really see how that's enough to make Iron Man 3 a bad movie.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:37:41 PM by kkhohoho »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2015, 03:41:00 AM »
Iron Man 3 was a mixed bag. I'm not one of the big proponents of the Mandarin thing (I remember posting very vocally why I was fine with him not being around) but the reason I feel it was problematic is that you see this guy, who is larger than life and is a really cool both visually and narratively, and then he's replaced by a nerd who was ticked off at Tony for being the cool kid. We didn't exactly trade up is what I'm saying.

So while I personally thought the fan trolling was hilarious, I'm glad they left the door open for another "Mandarin" since we've gotten more hints of the ten rings even as recently as Ant-Man.

That said, there were other problems with the movie, relating to him blowing up all the armors only to rebuild them and a drone army in the next film, Pepper STILL not getting to be RESCUE even though Downey was pushing it, etc. It's still far better than 2, but it's very forgettable when compared to GotG, Ant Man, and Cap 2.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #130 on: August 13, 2015, 04:00:37 AM »
Kk, as I'm pretty sure I said this back then: Just because a character starts from a bad place doesn't mean they're forever limited to those negative dimensions.  Look at the Falcon.  Early on, he was given a ridiculously offensive origin, but the character still had potential.  Eventually he outgrew those inauspicious beginnings and became something great.  The Mandarin has potential too, and there have been plenty of great stories about him that are a lot more than 'Fu Manchu ripoff number 5.'  Yeah, they would have had to be careful about adapting him (and personally, I think Kingsley himself would have been a nice start, more's the pity), but it definitely could have been done.  They managed to make a WWII flick that wasn't anti-German, and the same types of moves could have worked to secure the Mandarin's position in Asian markets.  The key to the issue is, if you're not going to do a character justice, why use them?  It just shows contempt for the people who support your work and the source material that's providing you with a job.  The Mandarin is one of Iron Man's biggest villains, and that movie certainly didn't do him justice.

'Mato, while I couldn't disagree more with any approval for their 'fan trolling,' as you put it, I certainly agree that Killian, or whatever his name was, was a lousy villain with weak motivation.  The movie was haphazard, uneven, and there were way too many plot holes for a Marvel movie.

In retrospect, Iron Man 2 certainly has problems, but I'll take it over 3 all day long.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 04:03:09 AM by BentonGrey »
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #131 on: August 13, 2015, 04:29:31 AM »
Dear lord,Mandarin again.Look,he WAS a yellow peril villain when he started,but he hasnt been that for years.Now hes more of a Moriarty to Tonys Sherlock.Look at Invincible Iron Man by Matt Fraction to see what I meant.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #132 on: August 13, 2015, 04:54:18 AM »
^Well, look at that, I'm agreeing with Spade on this thread. ;)
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #133 on: August 13, 2015, 02:20:39 PM »
Just his name is offensive.  And when you have to change everything about a character to make him palatable to modern audiences, well, how is that different than what Iron Man 3 did?  And when you divorce Iron Man 3 from sad feelings about the Mandarin, it's a great movie.

Offline BWPS

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #134 on: August 13, 2015, 02:26:20 PM »
I loved Iron Man 2 though I guess I need to rewatch it to figure out what people don't like about it, but to me 3 is the worst MCU movie by far.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #135 on: August 13, 2015, 02:26:32 PM »
Just his name is offensive.  And when you have to change everything about a character to make him palatable to modern audiences, well, how is that different than what Iron Man 3 did?  And when you divorce Iron Man 3 from sad feelings about the Mandarin, it's a great movie.

 :rolleyes: Except for all of the movie's many, MANY other problems and plot holes. :P

He's been adapted in more modern stories without changing everything about him, so no, I don't see how drawing from a good Mandarin story and adding a short scene or two showing the Chinese government in a positive light as they resist the villain would be anywhere near what Iron Man 3 did.

I agree, BWPS.  Be warned, Iron Man 2 doesn't hold up as well upon repeated watchings.  It's got some plot holes.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #136 on: August 13, 2015, 02:37:15 PM »
There wouldnt have to change that much about Mandarin,since he isnt offensive in his newer apperences,like I said.We arent counting Silver age or 90s cartoon.
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #137 on: August 13, 2015, 03:52:51 PM »
Just his name is offensive.  And when you have to change everything about a character to make him palatable to modern audiences, well, how is that different than what Iron Man 3 did?  And when you divorce Iron Man 3 from sad feelings about the Mandarin, it's a great movie.

 :rolleyes: Except for all of the movie's many, MANY other problems and plot holes. :P

He's been adapted in more modern stories without changing everything about him, so no, I don't see how drawing from a good Mandarin story and adding a short scene or two showing the Chinese government in a positive light as they resist the villain would be anywhere near what Iron Man 3 did.

I agree, BWPS.  Be warned, Iron Man 2 doesn't hold up as well upon repeated watchings.  It's got some plot holes.

Let's divorce this from the Mandarin issue - what are all these plot holes?  I don't think it's any worse plotted than other MCU movies.  Plot summary to follow:

Tony is suffering from some kind of PTSD from the events of Avengers, and copes by building increasingly unlikely or fringe-benefit suits.  AIM has a formula to make super-soldiers, which occasionally makes them explode.  They create a fake terrorist to take credit for these explosions, both explaining them away, and driving up demand for the super-soldier formula they've created.  The head of AIM draws Pepper into his scheme because he's a petty man and hates Tony, leading also to Happy's hospitalization and Tony calling out the fake terrorist.  They blow up his house in retaliation, and he is forced to escape in a prototype suit.  He researches the backstory of these explosions, which starts leading him to AIM.  He takes on some AIM guys without the suit, as the prototype needs to recharge, and discovers the fake terrorist.

Meanwhile, Rhodey is searching for the terrorists, and gets hacked by AIM.  Since they did the overhaul from War Machine to Iron Patriot on his suit, this is easily explained (though never explicitly said - not explicitly spelling something out is not a plot hole).  They had the opportunity to install any kind of software backdoor at that point.  AIM intends to take out the President with their fake terrorist, both driving up demand for government super-soldiers, and putting the VP into place as the president, over whom they have leverage.   They kidnap the President, using the Iron Patriot suit as a Trojan Horse.

The suit now recharged, Tony tries to save the president, but is too late.  He saves the rest of the people still alive on Air Force One however.  He and Rhodey go to save the President, apparently without suits.  Jarvis calls to tell him construction workers have cleared the debris from the doors - the doors to his vault full of armours.  The armours fly in on remote, and take out the AIM super-soldiers, while Rhodey saves the president and Tony tries to save Pepper, who I have forgotten to mention was injected with the super-soldier formula.  He and the AIM head fight, Pepper seemingly dies, only to save Tony by killing AIM guy with the tank-busting forearm missile (as seen in IM1, and earlier in this movie) from a suit of armour.  Tony detonates his remaining armours, figures out a way to cure Pepper, and undergoes experimental heart surgery to remove the shrapnel from his chest - while affirming that he is still Iron Man.  The End.

As far as plots go, I'd say IM3 was actually tightly plotted in regards to most Marvel movies.  Too many have "get the magic rock" as the bulk of their plot (Avengers, Thor 2, Guardians of the Galaxy).  The only thing I would consider a possibility is the prototype armour of Tony's needing to recharge.  He wears a power source that is supposed to power the armours, after all.  I can explain this away by saying it's a prototype, or maybe because it is meant to operate without being on him, it needs its own batteries.  That's hardly a damning plot hole without my No-prize attempts, and nitpicking could probably find as bad or worse in every Marvel movie.

So, what plot holes am I missing?

Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #138 on: August 13, 2015, 04:08:28 PM »
It's funny how people are saying that the Incredibles was a FF movie.  Well according to this, Iron Man ripped off the Incredibles:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUYW0JyzydA
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #139 on: August 13, 2015, 05:14:02 PM »
Iron Man 3 didnt really make much sense.Killian wants to get revenge because Tony didnt meet him on the roof?Dick move for sure,but not worth basing your life around that.
We saw Iron Man suit taking a beating from Thor with barely a scratch,but not it falls apart when a truck hits it?Truck continues driving without any problems,which is even weirder.
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Offline Talavar

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #140 on: August 13, 2015, 10:39:37 PM »
It's funny how people are saying that the Incredibles was a FF movie.  Well according to this, Iron Man ripped off the Incredibles:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUYW0JyzydA

It is actually kind of similar.  Hadn't seen that one before.  And the president in Rhodey's suit thing is a little weird.

Iron Man 3 didnt really make much sense.Killian wants to get revenge because Tony didnt meet him on the roof?Dick move for sure,but not worth basing your life around that.
We saw Iron Man suit taking a beating from Thor with barely a scratch,but not it falls apart when a truck hits it?Truck continues driving without any problems,which is even weirder.

You know those weren't the same suits, right?  The one the truck messes up is a prototype that is shown to be glitchy through the whole movie, and is designed to split up into a bunch of little pieces.  Clearly, the bugs aren't all worked out.

The Killian thing -it's responses like this that make me think you're trolling.  You're either grossly misrepresenting the movie to suit your point, or don't understand hu-man beings.  Killian hates Tony for being everything he's not, and having everything he doesn't.  Money, charm, looks, women - they're both smart guys, but Killian at the beginning of the film is a social pariah, while Tony is on his way up to a one night stand with a beautiful woman.  However, he doesn't base his life around revenge on Tony.  The whole point of the movie isn't to get Tony, or kill Tony, it's about manipulating the US government and making boatloads of money.  Revenge on Tony is a fringe benefit, a stretch goal.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #141 on: August 14, 2015, 04:09:35 AM »
Those other suits in the finale dont do much better jobs.Mooks from Gundam last longer then them.
Thats kinda the impresion you get about Killian from the movie.I havent read Extremis,but apparently he dies at the begining.His role is a lot bigger here,but you kinda get the feeling we wasnt supposed to carry the movie.
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Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #142 on: August 14, 2015, 12:58:15 PM »
Spade you're jumping all over the place.  You can't compare Gundam with Iron Man and even though the movie was loosely based on the comic, you know they are going to change it to make it stand on it's own.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #143 on: August 14, 2015, 02:16:51 PM »
Spade you're jumping all over the place.  You can't compare Gundam with Iron Man and even though the movie was loosely based on the comic, you know they are going to change it to make it stand on it's own.

Comparison was how suits lasted REALLY;REALLY SHORT.You know those jokes how in Gundam mooks explode even when a shot misses them??  :doh:
Figure of speech.You know like: They were dropping like flys?
About the movie being based on a comic: thats what I said,they changed the story.And thats really all to that.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 02:22:16 PM by Spade »
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Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #144 on: August 14, 2015, 02:27:13 PM »
My bad, It's been a while since I saw Gundam, Color me embarrasses
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #145 on: August 14, 2015, 03:53:48 PM »
No problem.
Granted,that was mostly in Wing,but thats not important right now.
Who has the rights to Shi'Ar now?
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #146 on: August 14, 2015, 06:38:29 PM »
I would assume fox, since the property is associated with the xmen, and I believe was created in the xmen books.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #147 on: August 15, 2015, 03:13:22 AM »
Yup,James Gunn confirmed it.Fox owns Shi'ar,Badoon,Skrulls and Kang.Are they planing to send X-men to space,I wonder?
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #148 on: August 15, 2015, 06:18:09 PM »
http://www.justjared.com/2015/07/11/jon-bernthal-pictured-as-the-punisher-on-daredevil-set/
Jon Bernthal on the set of Daredevil.In his civilian identity,I guess.
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #149 on: August 16, 2015, 02:43:29 AM »
So this was pretty awesome:

https://instagram.com/p/6aSI2yBEWk/