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Author Topic: Marvel Movies  (Read 41863 times)

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #480 on: July 15, 2017, 07:46:36 PM »
...and the blow up I was trying to prevent still happens. <sighs> Nobody ever listens or pays attention to what the old hand says...makes me wonder why I even try nowadays.
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Offline JeyNyce

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #481 on: July 15, 2017, 09:12:41 PM »
No pun intended , but can we please keep the conversation civil?  Someone already reported trouble.  Let's all play nice, M'kay?
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Offline daglob

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #482 on: July 15, 2017, 09:27:17 PM »
DJ: you try because you have to, to wit:

No one is wrong here. It is not wrong for someone to wish for a more faithful adaptation of the character in the comic (whatever they feel that means), nor is it wrong for someone to like the "alternate" version presented in a movie. Look back at all the movies and TV adaptations of comics-there are versions that some will disagree with the casting and people who loved the choices (except maybe David Hasslehoff as Nick Fury... and the whole Jon Sable thing...). I'd love to see the version of the characters I grew up with, but, hey, those haven't even been in the comics for thirty years or more. And if comics stay around long enough, many of you may find yourselves in a situation similar to mine.

The depth of feeling we have for these characters is a tribute to the writers and artists that created them, and those writers and artists that followed. 

This is probably not really a discussion an old white guy from Alabama ought to get into...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 09:30:07 PM by daglob »

Offline BWPS

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #483 on: July 15, 2017, 10:43:18 PM »
I agree with Spade, Tomato. Your SJW campaign of asking kindly for people to stop causing trouble while having the audacity to suggest non-white people's existence be reflected in movies is just too much. Stop setting our American flags on fire.
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Offline daglob

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #484 on: July 15, 2017, 10:44:59 PM »
 :doh:

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #485 on: July 15, 2017, 11:31:37 PM »
<facepalm> That's it, I'm done with this section of the forum...tired of all the wasteful anger and drama...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 11:37:30 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #486 on: July 16, 2017, 12:40:30 AM »
I want to apologize to anyone who feels like I was belittling their opinions about how a proper adaptation includes doing justice to the appearance to a character. I do understand it... to the shock of probably no one here, it bothers me seeing movies set in, say, egypt cast all white actors. So on the one hand, yeah, I tend to feel that this sort of thing is the other shoe dropping and helps balance the scales somehow. And unlike in the egypt example, at least with stuff like homecoming we see groups represented that haven't seen a lot of love in superhero movies prior.

But I do get it. And as I have repeated: I'm not arguing C6's original points are invalid, because... they are absolutely valid, even if the wording could be better. As I have expressed, there are changes in this movie that frustrate me too, particularly Ned "Not-Ganke" Leeds. Not because I don't like that character, but because it is clearly not intended to be Ned Leeds in anything other than name. And the choice to cast flash thompson as a tiny dude whose butt *I* could kick is detrimental to his adaptation. But on the flipside, I don't feel like race factors into Liz Allen OR Michelle in any negative fashion, since both characters did their jobs in the film and I genuinely liked them both.

So there IS a legitimate discussion here. Not SJW bashing or the reverse, but an honest to goodness discussion about the actual changes they made to the characters and how those changes work in the context of the film.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #487 on: July 16, 2017, 01:51:03 AM »
Well, Tom, I'm glad to see you say that. We can all stand to try to be careful how we phrase things here. The problem we keep having on this forum seems to be that the way some of use phrase things rubs others the wrong way (and I admit my snarky self is guilty of it as well) and the thing we all got to remember is we've got a few different people here of different age groups and walks of life with different values and takes on things. What's important to you in an adaptation might be different for someone else. Just remember to try to be more civil. Because we may end up going through this at least once every two years though since the film made a bajillion dollars and is guaranteed sequels, and it's MCU so that means cameos ect.

I had a bunch of other stuff I wanted to say but I don't really have time right now and it's hot where I am, and I grow tired, so I may come back to it at a later film. In the meantime let's all please try to get our opinions accross without resorting to personal attacks.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #488 on: July 16, 2017, 03:30:32 AM »
Well said, SS.  You covered most of what I wanted to say.  I've been extremely busy today and haven't had the time to intervene here, but I'm disappointed with the way this conversation developed.  I was able to check in a few times and I was saddened to see the way things were going.

Spade, I think your response here was stronger than was called for.

BWPS, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem. 

'Mato, I also am glad to hear you say that.  I was actually going to send you a message on that front.  It's a sign of character to respond in this way.

As DJ said, this is just a movie.  Of course, it's also much more than a movie, both because art is a reflection and a component of culture and because people are making assumptions about what lies behind the comments about said movie.  That's the problem.  Let's do each other the courtesy of treating each other's posts the way we'd want ours treated, I.E., judging them on what they say, and not what we assume about their motives, giving each other the benefit of the doubt.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #489 on: July 16, 2017, 05:31:00 AM »
So for discussion's sake, I'm gonna make a big old post on here with a ton of spoilers about my feelings on the direction the movie takes 3 of the supporting characters, Ned Leeds, Flash Thompson, and Michelle... no last name given. Warning, there will be a novel in the spoiler tags.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline SickAlice

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #490 on: July 17, 2017, 05:41:35 AM »
Sorry, I was having surgery. So real belated. On current I'm not speaking for anyone but myself but I don't actually get personal about anything online anymore sans a death in my local news. It's easy enough without personal exchange to project educed Pavlovian response but the fact is no one else is in anyone else's mind and therefore can't construct a proper image of another's current paradigmatic state. Or to speak of the now well established research into psychological button pushing online via traditional narcissists where a different point of view is misconstrued as a "one-up" (as it disagreement too closely resembles cognitive dissonance without emotional tone of course) and/or the establishment of libel (reality is this place is small water drop in the scheme of an ocean in oceans). To sum it up but we aren't here to discuss social discourse I'm sure. Know in my case if am offended ever, I will type those words exactly as I tend to be blunt. Fact is I almost never will be because I simply outgrew it more or less. I'll read it and move on to eating some M&M's. Hold that thought. *munch munch crunch munch* If any of you are ever personal offended by my words I'd ask that you tell me though a PM is probably the best place to iron out such things and I'd happily rectify myself. Phew. Back to comic movies.

At cat, sorry I confused what you wrote. I guess we stand aloft on that one. My logic is that potentially anything can be a great movie. I can think of how I would like any comic book movie to play out and have done so since childhood as I'm sure has everyone. But I face static evidence in contrast to my desires and the evidence I see thus far is the Fantastic 4 never translating well to cinema, yes including Corman. To say it could never of course not but as it stands to date adaptation of the comic has just fallen short. As the comic itself can be written to the point of accolades that tells me that the series itself isn't the issue rather the valley between it's concept and what current Hollywood has as far as resources to bridge that space.

Again not to say that can never change, but just where I stand. If were digging farther I believe what that franchise needed and could use in a reboot say if potentially it switched hands to the MCU proper is a prior establishment, like say one based on The Books Of Doom to concrete his character first, then tie his relations to Strange, then the first family as it were. But I also believe that to get the notion of family to a larger audience as any marketing group would declare it needs to be relatable and I think for that and as far as the term "family" goes we need to zip ahead and get the children involved. In fact the Future Foundation model lends itself even more to the big screen when I think about it. And of course Disney plus family film literal equals win. But hey, believing and seeing, seeing and believing and so forth.

As far as the topic of race of actors and/or in-canon characters I'm going to short and sweet because that is a powder keg topic as much as religion is and equally as unresolved. I don't care imo.
1.) It's a different canon. I interpret it as such.
2.) If the actor brings an entertaining performance and better pitches the core qualities of the fictional counterpart well it works for me.
3.) I believe in the cases of comics, film and otherwise that putting more diversity in is a good thing in light of the fact that it can't be denied that fiction does influence, and fiction larger targeted at youth in this very case, and taking responsibility for what we teach youth and making an effort to let them be more open to other cultures and less to prejudice or at least providing that option is something I'll get behind however the means to ends. Certainly the opposite course has done nothing else thus far if just nothing at all. I had my eras take and still keep it with my inner child so I'm at no loss.
4.) In the film industry itself the unions are required by Federal law to uphold fair hiring practices as are any other large commercial entities. There's no logistical pathway around that, it's just the law and it seems often neglected by critics. It isn't the 70's anymore to paraphrase.


Else this is again my personal feelings on that subject as again I recognize it as one of those things that does literally come down to ones preference and anothers, and really there isn't going to be a budge in that in our lifetime. Your going to like what you like and I'm going to like what I like. No one is in any event actually wrong when it comes to tastes. Speaking of which M&M's. *munch munch crunch munch*. Anyways I enjoyed Homecoming overall again. Also DJ, you should change your signature to the MST3K Mantra if anything jest for giggles.

Peace.

Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #491 on: July 17, 2017, 10:06:49 AM »
Yall trippin...

Offline stumpy

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #492 on: July 17, 2017, 11:37:28 PM »
I have seen the movie and have some thoughts on it. However, at the moment, my concern is this discussion.

And, it has been a civil discussion, mostly. From a moderation perspective, that's great. The problem typically arises when things take a personal turn. That includes portraying someone who posts a different view as though they are exhibiting some sort of social or moral deficiency. And, that portrayal occurs both when someone directly says, "Your view indicates that you are a [fill-in-the-blank]-ist" and when mocking someone by "adopting" their view in a way that makes it clear the mocker thinks the mocked is some class of bad person.

(BTW, someone might actually conclude that another poster is a bad person. Being judgemental is part of life. The point here is that FR is not the place to post that conclusion.)

Discuss the movies and aspects that are good and not-so-good. But, refrain from implying that there is something wrong with members who disagree.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #493 on: July 18, 2017, 12:34:55 AM »
Well said, Stumpy.
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Offline Starman

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #494 on: July 18, 2017, 02:17:33 PM »
Quote
The casting came off more like diversity check list for a Sunny D commercial than anything else.

The comedy was weak and cringey as hell at points. Eye rolling dialogue like the pointless slavery banter at the expense of Michelle's white (therefore lame) professor. Marvel comics are absolutely riddled this "Identity Politics" crap and are suffering badly for it. Keep it out of the movies.

Uh, since when it has been in the harmonious spirit of this board to refer to multiracial casting as a "diversity checklist", etc?

Does C6 get a reprimand too or is everyone just more comfortable dog-piling on Tomato and Spade?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 02:19:42 PM by Starman »

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #495 on: July 18, 2017, 02:35:38 PM »
'Mato and others already spent a page pointing out that C6's comments were not phrased well.  However, his comment was not attacking anyone else, and until he cares to explain himself, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume nefarious motives for his post.  That is precisely what were were just talking about, after all. 
God Bless
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #496 on: July 18, 2017, 03:21:51 PM »
I say we just lock this thread and start a new one to talk about Marvel Movies otherwise this has the potential to reflare/continue. Just my thoughts and , as has been shown quite often lately, mean diddly squat.
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #497 on: July 18, 2017, 07:09:47 PM »
'Mato and others already spent a page pointing out that C6's comments were not phrased well.  However, his comment was not attacking anyone else, and until he cares to explain himself, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume nefarious motives for his post.  That is precisely what were were just talking about, after all.

Not phrased well?  I mean, I'm a grown up and I don't take offense easily, but as party of a "diversity community", it's a hard to not take offense by it.  I can't help but to wonder and ask "what's wrong with diversity?" That and the comment about the teacher being "lame" BECAUSE he's white(as if Peter or Toomes were lame), it's kind of hard to divorce any comments specifically about changing the source material vs being race specific to the point of disparaging.  There's a line there.  Benton, you and I have BOTH been critical of such changes and I think it's fair criticism.  But I didn't think that was fair to be honest.  The comments seemed more focused on the diversity of the cast than specifically about certain characters.  Just my opinion... in case anyone wanted to ask a black dude.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #498 on: July 18, 2017, 07:52:02 PM »
Quote
I say we just lock this thread and start a new one to talk about Marvel Movies otherwise this has the potential to reflare/continue. Just my thoughts and , as has been shown quite often lately, mean diddly squat.
Personally, if we're talking about locking the thread, I think we should move all the posts regarding Homecoming to the Homecoming thread. This is a thread for all Marvel movies, and it'd be a shame for it to be locked because of Homecoming.

Shogunn, not for nothing, but you're not helping. In addition to an Admin saying to knock it off, Benton (and I) have been trying to be diplomatic, while you're being confrontational. I actually have a lot to say on the matter (as I said earlier in the thread the other day) but honestly I probably shouldn't say anything because I don't want to rile people up. What I will say, specifically since you brought it up, is I don't find C6's comment offensive. I find the dogpiling on C6 for that one brief post offensive.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 11:39:49 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #499 on: July 18, 2017, 07:58:21 PM »
Quote
I say we just lock this thread and start a new one to talk about Marvel Movies otherwise this has the potential to reflare/continue. Just my thoughts and , as has been shown quite often lately, mean diddly squat.
Personally, if we're talking about locking the thread, I think we should move all the posts regarding Homecoming to the Homecoming thread. This is a thread for all Marvel movies, and it'd be a shame for it to be locked because of Homecoming.


That's why I suggested starting a new Marvel Movies thread...but your idea works too.  Just tired of the potential anger/hatred that keeps reflaring it seems like....
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #500 on: July 18, 2017, 09:20:37 PM »
Once again, well said, SS.

Shogunn, I hope you know that I have great respect for you and am always particularly interested in your thoughts on this topic.  That being said, SS is right, and I think restraint and diplomacy are what is called for here given the fact that tempers are clearly high.  To be fair, I did rather mean what I said; C6's phrasing was, I think the problem.  I stated it that way because I think I know him well enough to know that he's a decent fellow and A) would not intentionally be ugly to members of the community and B) is not insensitive or racist.  Thus, I assume that what he meant is rather something different than what folks have taken from his statement, going back to my point about giving each other the benefit of the doubt.  Do I think the statement came off badly?  Yeah.

I do think that it was poorly phrased, or, perhaps (?), poorly developed.  I won't try to speak for the man, and, honestly, I don't have much desire to engage in this debate in the current climate, but I think I can understand where he was coming from.  After all, we all know that there is a tendency for producers and the powers that be in Hollywood to have a very cynical and soulless approach to the products they create.  They tick the boxes they know are likely to create something marketable.  Love interest?  Check.  Handsome cast?  Check.  Big names?  Check.  Those of us old enough to remember the 90s with clarity probably remember this attitude applied to diversity all over the place.  There's even an entire trope for it on TV Tropes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveTokenBand
Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends largely on the application and your perspective, and that era had the very fortunate effect of leading to a more natural and organic diversity in our media by normalizing the presence of minorities.  So, even if a text in question was a product of a soulless corporate checklist resulting in a catalog of marketable cliches (and I can certainly think of cartoons that were very much like this), there was a positive side to the trend.  Nonetheless, I don't think anyone would argue that actually thoughtful, organic, and intentional choices produce better art, no matter what category you're talking about.  That includes character races. 

Now, I haven't seen the movie (can't wait!), so I can't comment on whether C6's views are off-base or not, but let's reserve judgement until he explains what he meant, if folks haven't driven him off already.  And, more importantly, as I've been stressing, let's try to grant each other the benefit of the doubt. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 09:46:08 PM by BentonGrey »
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Offline Starman

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #501 on: July 18, 2017, 09:28:46 PM »
Quote
'Mato and others already spent a page pointing out that C6's comments were not phrased well.  However, his comment was not attacking anyone else, and until he cares to explain himself, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume nefarious motives for his post.  That is precisely what were were just talking about, after all.

He phrased some insensitive comments that diminished racial representation in the movie and comics quite well, I thought.

Also, any time you write something desultory about diversity or "identity politics", you're indirectly attacking someone. This is a multiracial board, after all...


Quote
Shogunn, not for nothing, but you're not helping. In addition to an Admin saying to knock it off, Benton (and I) have been trying to be diplomatic, while you're being confrontational. I actually have a lot to say on the matter (as I said earlier in the thread the other day) but honestly I probably shouldn't say anything because I don't want to rile people up. What I will say, specially since you brought it up, is I don't find C6's comment offensive. I find the dogpiling on C6 for that one brief post offensive.

Shogunn wrote "what's wrong with diversity?" in reply to "The casting came off more like diversity check list for a Sunny D commercial than anything else" ... and Shogunn is being confrontational?  :blink:

People have hardly been dogpiling on C6 - if anyone got dogpiled on here, it was Tomato just for pointing out C6's comments were out-of-line.

Lock the post, but the same kind of unaddressed comments will always cause the same kind of flare ups. You're better off deleting or editing C6's comment.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #502 on: July 18, 2017, 09:38:08 PM »
Well, I'm glad my message was so well received and my efforts so well rewarded.  Starman, I don't know how much more clearly I could say, 'this isn't productive; let it go,' while still being polite, so let me put it this way:  This isn't productive; let it go.
God Bless
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #503 on: July 18, 2017, 09:48:42 PM »
I've been trying to stay out of this debate, but it seems that it's no longer a discussion about the original topic, and has since focused on less pleasant subject matter. Our Community no longer has the active membership that it previously had, and as much as I'd like to say otherwise, a discussion like this would serve as nothing more than a driving point to push new members away.

Regardless of the intent, a comment was made here, while some have moved forward, others have not. I would hate to see bridges burned, I know how hard they are to rebuild, if they are ever rebuilt at all. As such, since there has already been one request to lock this thread, I am going to second that request. I'm sorry if this offends or upsets anyone, but since the discussion is having such a difficult time staying civil, I feel that this is the best course of action.

All hate mail can be sent to me via PM, I'd rather that than see our Community self destruct over this.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #504 on: July 18, 2017, 09:57:46 PM »
The Titans and mods are considering the matter.  In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been warned about civility.  Please keep that in mind and consider further posts carefully.
God Bless
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #505 on: July 18, 2017, 10:01:34 PM »
The Titans and mods are considering the matter.  In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been warned about civility.  Please keep that in mind and consider further posts carefully.

One of these days I'm going to have to get that Titan thingie...:P
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #506 on: July 18, 2017, 10:02:41 PM »
The Titans and mods are considering the matter.  In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been warned about civility.  Please keep that in mind and consider further posts carefully.

One of these days I'm going to have to get that Titan thingie...:P

And have you drink all our booze?  You've got to be crazy!  :lol:
God Bless
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Offline Starman

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #507 on: July 18, 2017, 10:08:23 PM »
Um, BentonGrey, you posted a massive wall of text literally one minute before I posted my comparatively meager reply. If anyone needs to "let it go"...

I'll add: making lengthy excuses for somebody else's blunt comments in their absence (with a side of "let's reserve judgement until he explains what he meant") doesn't help anything at all. It certainly isn't being diplomatic.

Quote
I won't try to speak for the man, and, honestly, I don't have much desire to engage in this debate in the current climate, but I think I can understand where he was coming from.

 Sigh... :rolleyes:

Offline SickAlice

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #508 on: July 18, 2017, 10:28:04 PM »
* throws a towel and spit bucket into the ring before zipping back to whatever it is I do *

#sidenote: Yes and I am the best there is at whatever I do and whatever is eat Skittles while staring blankly at the alarm clock.

Oh and to be on-topic, not just because but I've been thinking about this, what's anyone think about Milana Vayntrub as Squirrel Girl?
I'm largely unfamiliar until the very announcement but watched some of her online sketch comedy (Prude Girls Live or something) and think
she'll be a good fit. She has the spunk and look for it and more gets the nuances of proper comedy like subtle gesture and such. 
Again though only from recent minimum exposure to her and well long time maximum exposure to the character.

Back to some rainbow tasting escapades then...

*steps in the spit bucket on the way out*
"SPLORSHY!"
 :doh:

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: Marvel Movies
« Reply #509 on: July 18, 2017, 11:29:34 PM »
I'm not really a Squirrel Girl fan at all, but from the picture I saw she looks like a perfectly decent choice to play the character. I still kinda wish Anna Kendrick got to play her like she wanted.

The New Warriors tv show looks...neat. Like the Runaways and Cloak and Dagger shows it's way too early for me to get a good sense of what they'll be like or if they'll be any good, but the casting looks good. I'll say this, I was pretty happy with the Runaways casting. They look great for the most part. I'm a little iffy on Chase but he might be fine. And I'm fully expecting Molly to be an Inhuman (she almost certainly won't be an Mutant, that's for sure).

I'm more iffy on the big streaming service coup Marvel and DC are going whole hog on these days. As I mentioned in the Star Trek thread, everyone's trying to get a piece of the Netflix pie these days so now in addition to shows like Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Shield, Gotham, Inhumans and a new X-Men show, we also have stuff like Legion on FX (I still haven't seen it, but I want to. The first episode aired on basic cable in Canada, and I really liked that, I just haven't gotten to see any more yet), Titans (along with Young Justice) on a new DC streaming site, it's just a little annoying and hard to keep track off. I'd watch some of this stuff, but they're all on different networks, some of which I don't get (I'm positive I don't get Freeform) so who knows if I (and others, of course) will get to see these. Plus, while I'm not a "superhero fatigue" guy...man that's a lot of superhero shows.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 11:48:57 PM by Silver Shocker »
"I just love doing cameos!"
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