Marvel Movies

Started by JeyNyce, October 28, 2014, 06:48:28 PM

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kkhohoho

Saw it. Not the best Marvel movie, but still pretty darn good.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Silver Shocker

#721
I saw it today. Quite the movie. It may have 3 hours long, but it didn't feel like it, it went by without me even noticing.

Spoiler


QuoteTIME TRAVEL!

To quote Jeff Daniels in Looper: This time travel *&^& frys yer brain like an egg!

To quote Bruce Willis in a deleted scene in Looper: Look, I don't wanna talk about time travel %^&* cuz then I'm gonna be getting out straws and we're going to be talking about this all day [starts laying out visual aids...]

As soon as Thanos and past-Nebula started highjacking the Avengers time-travel shenanaghens I knew this was going to get convoluted.

Yeah, Captain America going back by himself and just putting everything back is just a bit too convenient. I mean, if everything that happened still happened, then 1) What happened to Loki? 2) Doesn't this mean Cap learned Bucky is still alive before the events of the Winter Soldier?  Assuming he believed Future-Cap?

It's funny too, because during the final act, Thanos posits that he should wipe out life again but this time wipe all memory of the event so something like this won't happen again. Something like that could have cleaned up the time travel fallout (or lack thereof) but apparently they didn't go that route? I think the Legends of Tomorrow need to show up and start using the Flashy-Thing on some folks!  :P

QuoteWhat about Gamora? Did she stay in the present(her future)? 

I don't think we saw Gamora after she hit Starlord and wandered off with Nebula. Was that past-Nebula or Future-Nebula? Because Future-Nebula shot Past Nebula.) In any case, if all of Thanos' forces did die, then that means Past-Nebula died too, right? So if Past-Nebula died, then how could Future-Nebula help the Avengers and--Oh No I've Gone Cross-Eyed!

[EDIT] Oh, here's one I forgot to mention. Assuming we're going on Daniel Faraday from Lost "What Happened, Happened" logic, And I was totally thinking this during this part in the movie, what if Ant-Man giving Past-Tony that mini-heart attack led to Tony's PTSD in Iron Man 3? That'd be kinda messed up, right?



Going back to Gamora... (I'm do you one better....WHEN is Gamora?) if Gamora got wiped out, then all future Gamora appearances didn't happen? The fact That Star Lord was searching for Gamora on the computer, without the movie showing us (or Quill) the results, was surely intentional to leave the door open for Guardians 3. Speaking of....

It sure was a curveball recasting Chris Hemsworth as Volstagg!  :P But no, seriously, fat drunken Thor, well that was a thing. I admit I did laugh, but man, anyone who hated the more comedy-orientated turn Hemsworth's Thor has taken (looking at you, Benton) are going to HATE this take on Thor.

QuoteAnd why is Ned still in high school?

I'm assuming all of Peter's classmates got dusted and then came back because of the stones. Otherwise it makes no sense and we're firmly in X-Men territory at this point. I mean, 5 years passed. Those five years still happened at the end of the movie. Cassie is five years older and played by another actress. So if every single classmate of Peter's is still about the same age as Peter in Far From Home in the trailers, then either Marvel's doing some more misleading marketing (why hello there, Mark Ruffulo as the Hulk!) or every single one of them got dusted and then came back (Or, as some suggested, Far from Home takes place before Infinity War). On that note, man, the whole "who does and doesn't get dusted" thing sure is arbitrary, right? A few months back I was thinking about whether or not the Red Skull would be dusted...

Also, what was Captain Marvel doing for most of the movie anyway?

And apparently, in universe, superhero origins stopped happening on Earth for 5 solid years.....OR DID THEY?

Oh, for those wondering about post credits scenes....

Spoiler
There aren't any. There's just an audio clip from an earlier movie that connects to something/someone important in the flick. Apparently some theater chains actually put out signs saying there's isn't a PCS and asking everyone to just leave when they credits happen so they can start cleaning up the aisles.

I definitely enjoyed it. One things for sure though, all eyes are Marvel Studios to see what they're going to do next.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

GhostMachine

My thoughts on Endgame:

Spoiler
Everyone was laughing whenever they showed Thor's gut. Not just the first time, but every single time. Didn't like that they essentially turned him into The Dude.

Needed more Captain Marvel. And Brie Larson did not look good with the shorter hair.

I absolutely hated what they did to Banner/The Hulk. First the Hulk turns into a spineless coward in Infinity War, and then this?!

They more or less crapped on the Iron Man franchise: Tony died, Black Widow (who was introduced in Iron Man 2) died, and Vision (who Tony helped create) stayed dead from Infinity War.

Favorite part of the movie was Cap beating the snot out of Thanos using the shield and Mjolnir....then they just had to go there and have Thanos break the shield.

Was cool seeing Pepper armor up. So....Rescue or...Iron Woman?

Once everyone was resurrected (except Vision, who wasn't taken out by the Infinity Gauntlet, and Black Widow, who can't be resurrected, apparently) , the Guardians weren't really used enough.

Stan's cameo was cool. If I remember right, that was actually what his hair looked like back in 1970!

If this was the last film for a lot of the actors, it was a great ending for Captain America. But I didn't like seeing him hand the shield off to Falcon. Granted, I know Bucky wouldn't have wanted it, but I'm not a fan of Falcon as Cap, and lets face it: Falcon was defeated by Ant-Man. Movie Falcon is a wuss.

Silver Shocker

#723
Spoiler


QuoteEveryone was laughing whenever they showed Thor's gut. Not just the first time, but every single time. Didn't like that they essentially turned him into The Dude.

Tony even called him "Big Lebowski". I'm of mixed feelings on it, just like I was for the last two movies of Thor being, basically, Hercules or the Brave and the Bold version of Aquaman (who pretty much is the Marvel Hercules). I mean, yeah, some of it's funny, but at times it almost doesn't even feel like the same character.

I really hope Thor's current look doesn't carry over to GotG Vol. 3. The beer gut's got to go and I wasn't loving the hair.

Anyway, I had a very enthusiastic crowd at the theater. I'm pretty sure people laughed at Beer Gut Thor, they cheered when Black Panther came through the portal. They clapped when the credits came up with Cap's nice sendoff.

QuoteNeeded more Captain Marvel. And Brie Larson did not look good with the shorter hair.

Yeah, I actually agree with both of these comments. It's kinda cool that they gave Carol the modern comic hair, but it just didn't look as good in live action. I felt the same way whenever they tried to give Hugh Jackman the Wolverine hair from the comics and cartoons.

I didn't see Captain Marvel so I was kinda hoping this movie would warm me up to her, but she wasn't really in it that much. She was suitably powerful, I'll give them that, but there wasn't much in the way of character moments or a role in the plot. Now I get why they did that, this is supposed to be a celebration or "greatest hits" highlight reel for the various characters we've met over the years, and she only debuted about a month or two ago, so yeah. I dunno. It felt a bit tacked on or phoned in. I hear that the scene at the base at the beginning of the movie with her was actually the first thing she filmed. Makes sense, considering they filmed Avengers 3 and 4 back to back.

QuoteI absolutely hated what they did to Banner/The Hulk. First the Hulk turns into a spineless coward in Infinity War, and then this?!

I'll admit I'm not super attached to The Hulk, so that probably feeds into it, but I kinda liked it. It felt like a happy ending for Banner. Still, for those wanting some "Hulk Smash!" it did feel like a ripoff. I'll say it was good for Banner's character, but sucked for The Hulk. Plus I thought the CGI was a bit dodgy in spots (particularly that initial scene in the dinner)

QuoteWas cool seeing Pepper armor up. So....Rescue or...Iron Woman?

There was an Iron Man 3 toy of Pepper as Rescue, so I'd say Rescue is the official name.

QuoteOnce everyone was resurrected (except Vision, who wasn't taken out by the Infinity Gauntlet, and Black Widow, who can't be resurrected, apparently) , the Guardians weren't really used enough.

Everyone forgets about poor Heimdall. Maybe they group him in with the Asgardians who died in Ragnarok. Anyway, I definitely agree about the Guardians. If you're a fan of them and were hoping for more, you'd be disappointed (except in the case of Nebula, and maybe Rocket). I think this mildly acceptable simply because we know that GotG Vol. 3 is well-underway.

That being said, Drax got ripped off big time. Not only does he basically have no comedic shine this film (unlike IW, where he got some of the best jokes), he barely got to fight Thanos, the guy he blames for the death of his family, and didn't get a chance to react to it. I wanna see what he's gonna be about in part 3 (other than mugging for the camera) because as a character he's been underutilized ever since he debuted. Personally I'd like to see either his dead family play into a story more (like in the not-particularly good GotG cartoon or the okay-to-pretty-decent Telltale GotG game), or Pacifist Drax from the recent comics.

QuoteStan's cameo was cool. If I remember right, that was actually what his hair looked like back in 1970!

I think you're right about that.

QuoteIf this was the last film for a lot of the actors, it was a great ending for Captain America. But I didn't like seeing him hand the shield off to Falcon. Granted, I know Bucky wouldn't have wanted it, but I'm not a fan of Falcon as Cap, and lets face it: Falcon was defeated by Ant-Man. Movie Falcon is a wuss.

I really liked Sam Wilson as a character in the Cap sequels, but he's a little too underutilized on the whole to be Captain America in this. It's a good thing him and Bucky are moving to the world of Streaming shows, because I don't think movie audiences would go in for Cap movies starring Falcon.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Shogunn2517

I can't make no real argument against what either of you said. But to be honest, a lot of it might be how you like your kool-aid flavored.

Spoiler
My brother, who is a huge fan of the Hulk hated what they did too. Said as much, first he gets beatdown, then turns into a coward and now pretty much just Shrek in Endgame. Honestly I had less of a problem with it than I did have a problem with it. That's probably extended from the fact that I believe it WAS the Professor Hulk in the original Infinity Gauntlet.  And at least he was actually IN it. Even though I still don't know why his arm is in a sling, doesn't Hulk have a healing factor too?

In regards to Thor, beer belly aside, I actually was a fan of his look. A much bigger fan of this look than either of the last two movies he was in. Again, beer belly notwithstanding.

And Captain America's arch still slightly bothers me. I'm still trying to figure out the science of it all, but I don't see Steve giving up like that. I mean, it was nice and all. And I know they've said they're developing a series with Sam and Bucky, which I have to assume Captain America will be in it, you're right about Sam. Even if he's more than just a one-trick pony as a flier, he's still just human. Captain America is PEAK human. Kinda gives him an edge against like competition. I don't see Falcon being able to be a believable challenge to the Winter Soldier or Red Skull or even Crossbones of the MCU.

Speaking of which, doesn't the Super Solder serum retards aging effects? It did for Isiah Bradley.  If it artificially make him taller, faster and stronger why would it just stop?

kkhohoho

Spoiler
It's not just about how Thor's look. It's about how they treated his PTSD as a joke. As well as turned him into little more than one big fat joke.

https://sheepfulsheepyard.tumblr.com/post/184470533501/wow-the-fact-that-the-russo-brothers-hate-how
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Tomato

Spoiler
The Ned/Peter/everyone important to the spiderman universe got dusted thing is... eh. It's a silly workaround to the fact that they needed to age certain characters for projects I'm sure they want to do in the near future *cough*Young Avengers*cough* without aging others out of high school. It's... nonsense, but whatever, if it gets me a YA movie or makes Stinger a thing early I'll deal with it.

As for the Steve aging thing... I feel like he did age slower. He's older, sure, but if he "retired" back in the 70s like is implied... even being generous that we're talking 79 (I forget what exact year it was), that's him 40 years older, and the dude's already lived a few decades in the present after the whole ice thing. Peggy DIED OF OLD AGE during a similar time frame, and Steve just looks like he's MAYBE 50-60. His hair wasn't even white, just a bit gray. And that's on top of the fact that women typically live longer then men.

But yeah, I agree that the Russo's really did NOT get Thor, particularly a post-Ragnarok Thor. Hulk was fine (he was cool enough, and... well, tbh, they've gone back and forth between professor Hulk in the comics before), so while I'm not in love with it, I don't really care since it can be easily handwaved later.

Silver Shocker

#727
KKhohoho:

Spoiler
1, Are we allowed to post links to stuff with the more colorful 4-letter words in it?

Quote2. It's not just about how Thor's look. It's about how they treated his PTSD as a joke. As well as turned him into little more than one big fat joke.

So yes, I do totally get what you're saying. It is not just that they made him fat and changes his appearance, they did have him hide from his problems, not take responsibility, and play all of it for laughs (again, Benton's gonna HATE this, considering he didn't like the Ragnarok version to begin with.

3. This one's going to be a response more for the tumblr post you linked to than your post here (not sure if that tumblr post is by you or someone else?):

-James Gunn was involved with the Thor/Guardians scenes in Infinity War. I haven't heard if he was involved with the scenes involving Rocket, Nebula, Thor and/or The Guardians in this film but considering Thor spends very little time with the Guardians until the end of the flick and most of them are dead until the final act of the film, I'd guess no? So some of the stuff involving Thor in IW could be leveled at Gunn, since the characterization and humor in those IF scenes were CLEARLY his work.

-
Quoteliterally, making thor fat was such a part of a gag that they edited it out of trailers?

The entire middle act and all but a handful of quick shots from the final act were hidden from trailers. They wanted to hide the fact that there was a 5 year time skip. Plus it's a spoiler since it's character-and-plot driven.

Quotehis depression bend is utterly played for laughs, and just about losing a fight

Umm, no, Thor didn't have depression because he lost a fight, he had depression because he felt responsible for half of everyone dying because he "didn't go for the head" (and then DID go for the head later; I think the Avengers thought that they could have gotten some useful information out of Thanos if they kept him alive. I don't know if that's actually true, but Thor seemed to think so.) It's the same reason Starlord's reaction before he turned to dust in IW is "Ahhh, MAAN" because he's thinking "Dude, I really screwed up" (Only he didn't use the word "screwed", to paraphrase Rocket) Notice Thor's relatively fine before the time-skip; I think it's a safe bet that he and the other Avengers were really counting on using the stones to reverse the snap, and them being gone was kinda a gut-punch to, well, them in general, but Thor in particular. Quill would have been in very much the same boat if he hadn't been dusted. Really, you can imagine that exact gag being done with Quill instead of Thor (which would have been funnier, considering Pratt used to be overweight in his Parks and Rec days, but they already made that joke in IW)

-I still have mixed feelings about Thor's move towards comedy in general, but in fairness, people always talk about the directors of these movies, but there's also the writers, the "real heroes" as the first Deadpool movie put it. Christopher Marcus and Stephan McFeely wrote both IW and Endgame, and I've skimmed enough interviews in the last three days to know they had say in how the story shook out. (for example, Thanos dying in the first act was something they kinda thought up on the fly when feeling like they wrote themselves into a corner with Thanos; and they considered having The Living Tribunal show up for the final fight in END in a similar manner to the Watcher). And Thor: Ragnarok was written by three writers, none of them Taika Watitti and two of them Craig Kyle and Chris Yost, returning from Dark World, and their handiwork was all over that movie's plot (I'd bet good money they were behind the deaths of the Warrior's Three)

Yes, I am aware that under all the comedy and comedic beats there are a number of very deliberate themes at play in Ragarok ("Asgard is not a place, it is its people") And this film (and it's predecessor) did cast that aside (from the first first scene in IW, really) but I'm sure they made those calls for the purposes of using Thor/Hemsworth for comedy, and, along with Tony and Cap, using the time-travel sequences for character moments that pay off by the end of the flick. In Ragnarok Thor gets some moral support and wisdom from his father, and this film he gets one last conversation with his mother. Do I agree with the direction they've taken Thor (even having him join The Guardians for no apparent reason other than him being a comedy character now)? No, can't say that I do, but then again, I still don't like that they turned Korg into basically Thor's stoner/slacker friend, but I don't have any say in that, so I guess the best we can hope for is that these characters make us laugh if they're not going to be taken seriously. I mean, I love Drax and Ant-Man, but neither of them were comedy characters before the MCU delivered their versions of them.
 
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

#728
Okay guys, breaking my dissertation exile to add commentary here.  Several of y'all have noted the same things I have, and I get the impression that we seem to be generally viewing the film the same way.

So, non-spoilery overview first:

Endgame was good, almost great. It is a fair, if not a perfect, ending of this amazing project. I did not love it the way I did Infinity War, but this film, admittedly, had a harder job to do than even its predecessor, an incredibly hard job. There is no more after this. This is the end. There will be more movies, more individual stories, and maybe Marvel will even try to manufacture another miracle and create another interwoven, overarching, franchise-spanning saga, but this movie is, unquestionably, the end of the journey that began over a decade ago. To create a satisfying ending to twenty plus films and a decade of storytelling and universe-building is a very tough job indeed.

It did that job pretty well, and with a comprehensiveness that was impressive and awe-inspiring. But it does have significant flaws, both on the plot and the thematic level. It is by turns touching, heart-rending, inspiring, and beautiful. Unfortunately, it is also occasionally stupidly silly and in a few (though too many for a project like this) moments it undercuts its own emotional impact for a cheap joke. Still, on the whole, it succeeds on the emotional level quite magnificently.

On the plot level, it is often creative and surprising, but it is also downright sloppy to a degree that is rather astonishing given the importance of the film and the accomplishment of its creators. However, given the nature and complexity of the story being told, such sloppiness is neither entirely surprising nor as damaging as it might be in other contexts.

I suppose the great question for a film like this, though its like has never actually existed before, is 'does it create a satisfying conclusion?' The answer is, yes, emotionally. It does, and it does so in wonderful ways, with tragedy and triumph. It provides the hopeful, inspiring experience that a comicbook film should, while still feeling weighty and significant. I walked out of the theater feeling somberly elated. Intellectually, the conclusion is less satisfying for a number of reasons I'll outline below. Despite that failing, I walked away happy, if not perfectly so.

So, go see it. It is worth seeing solely on the merits of the uniqueness of its cultural import, in recognition of the grand experiment that it concludes, but it is also worth seeing AS that conclusion, and on its own merits as a very good adventure film full of wonder, hope, and redemption.

Spoiler

Alright. In no particular order, here are my spoilery thoughts. Criticisms first so we can end on a good note.

So, essentially, I loved this movie except for every scene with Thor in it. Or, more accurately, the fat, drunken buffoon carrying Thor's hammer and axe, because the god of thunder was completely absent from this movie. Unfortunately and inexplicably, the Russo Brothers, despite making the right decision at almost every other moment in all of their films, chose to continue the horrible, massively out of character-characterization of Thor from Ragnarok. He's portrayed as a fat, drunken slob, constantly blubbering and completely broken by his experiences whose almost sole purpose is for comedy.

Now, a Thor broken by the loss of almost everything he's known and loved...that could have been a story worth telling. We saw a glimpse of that in Infinity War, and it was good. But, just like Ragnarok, they undercut EVERY. SINGLE. MOMENT. of any emotional weight in his scenes in Endgame for a stupid, cheap joke. Thor gets a reunion with his lost mother, which could really have been beautiful and powerful. Instead, it's just another excuse for fat jokes. The same is true when he reclaims Mjolnir. That SHOULD have been a powerful moment of Thor's arc, the culmination of him putting himself back together and climbing out of his despair. Instead, it has zero weight because nothing about his portrayal changes. Folks are complaining that they make Thor's entirely reasonable PTSD into nothing more than fodder for jokes, and that's a fair assessment.

In a film and a franchise that is 90% about connections to the wider universe and mythos that they have created, this is massively jarring and frustrating. You can't have a character just suddenly perform a 180 degree about-face in personality. It defies the entire purpose of having a shared universe and robs everything touching that character of the accumulated narrative power that comes to bear at every other moment of the film.

It's particularly egregious because of how good everything else is. The scenes with the 'Big Thorbowski' are a gaping wound in the film, a glaring flaw that mars an otherwise shinning surface, an element as far out of step of the universe as everything else is bound in harmony. I found myself legitimately angry whenever he was on screen, not just for what they were doing to one of my favorite characters, but also because he was taking away from the rest of the film by his discordant presence.

Jokes are fine, and, in fact, necessary, in a film like this. And Endgame has lots of great, funny moments that fit its theme and tone and arise naturally from the interplay of personalities. One of my favorite moments is when Warmachine just straight-up coldcocks "Stupid Indiana Jones," Starlord. That's a great comedy beat, and it totally works as a release from the building tension of that act. In contrast, though there are some legitimately funny moments with Thor, the overall effect is wildly at odds with both the character and the context.

So, that was my biggest complaint, and it is, in my eyes, a very serious one. However, there were also some pretty major plot holes. I'm sure everyone who has thought about the film for more than five minutes has recognized them, but let's go ahead and give them a quick overview.

------------------------

Random note, I was disappointed by Tony and Cap's reunion. It didn't quite work for me. They eventually got there, but they never had the reconciliation I really wanted to see.

Captain Marvel was cool, but her powerlevel is plot-breakingly high. She is as problematic for a universe as Silver Age, planet-juggling Superman. She was also sort of bland in this, probably because she didn't get much narrative space.

-----------------------

This is a time-travel movie. That means it's going to have plot holes and logic problems. You really just about can't do a time-travel tale without screwing up your own plot, at least a little. However, Avengers is surprisingly bad, even for the genre. In Back to the Future, the logic doesn't always make sense, but they set out the rules of their setting, and then they pretty much stick to them. In Endgame, they establish their rules...and then they almost immediately break them.

They say that you can travel in time, but you can't change anything because you'll create alternate time-lines instead of actually changing the future (Back to the Future rules, but with more inflexibility of time). So, they can only do this if they pluck the Infinity Stones from the past and then return them to the exact moment they came from, so that they were effectively never gone. Then, they immediately bork their own history by accidentally freeing Loki right after Avengers I and letting him get his hands on the Cosmic Cube/Tesseract/Space Stone.

Ohh, and Cap tells his past self that Bucky was still alive several years early. Great.

Okay, I thought, now we'll see them have to repair the timeline, chase after Loki, and put things to rights. Nope, they immediately jump further back in time, and just leave Loki free to play merry havoc with he timeline, and this is NEVER ADDRESSED AGAIN! Really?! Really!? No-one thought to give us a single line of dialog about how this didn't matter because Tony had planned X, or how he fixed it in the snap, or any of a hundred other ways around it? Nope, we are told, explicitly, that they cannot change history.....and then they do...and NOTHING HAPPENS.

We can handwave Cap's gaff, because they have a line about the scepter erasing minds, though that isn't really how we saw it work in Avengers I. Still, we can say he blanked his past self's memory. Okay, but Loki is still out there with an Infinity Stone instead of in prison in Asgard, which throws everything after Avengers I out the window.

And, that's not even considering Cap's ending. I'll discuss this on a narrative level later on, but on a plot level, let's think about it for a moment. He jumps back in time, returns the stones, then just keeps going back to 1946. So, he's absolutely changing the future, getting married, changing Peggy's life, and just flagrantly disregarding the rules we've seen established, as well as basic common sense. This is also a major problem, logically, because there's no way that Captain Freaking America is going to just quietly sit out, say, the Korean War, Vietnam, or Hydra taking over S.H.I.E.L.D. He knows a ton of what the future holds, and as we've already exhaustively established, he's not the type of person who can sit quietly on the sidelines while something bad is going on.

That's not even touching on how Peter and everyone he knows are conveniently still the same age, despite the five year gap, or how EVERYTHING goes out the window when Thanos invades the future and he, plus all of his time-displaced minions, are wiped from existence.

So, why couldn't they go back in time and kill baby Thanos again? Seemed to work out just fine killing past-Thanos in the future.

Some such shenanigans are to be expected in a time-travel movie...but for a film that is so carefully and wonderfully made and which is, in all other ways tremendously self-aware, to be so sloppy is just mind-boggling.

---------------------------

On to more positive things. This movie, for the most part, provided good endings for these great characters. What I wanted from it was something I was never going to get, to see everyone ride into the sunset and live happily ever after, because I'm a big softie. Obviously, they were going to tell a story with some sacrifice, and there is a traditional story logic that would demand that for an epic tale of such scale and stakes. However, it is also a comic book movie, and comics are all about hope out of tragedy and finding the third way. It was never going to happen, but I wish ti would have. People would have complained that it was unrealistic, but realism isn't really your primary concern in a world of talking trees and thunder gods. Still, the Russo brothers displayed admirable restraint in the bodycount, and the sacrifices that were made were well done.

The Hawkeye / Black Widow scene, though very predictable, was beautiful and heart-rending. She was the rational choice, but it was still hard. It was a fair ending for her arc, though not the one I would have chosen.

Iron Man's snap of sacrifice: Wow. So, it's a wonderful moment, and a great climax...and it was always going to happen. We know RDJ wanted out, definitively, and he wanted to go out as the biggest hero of heroes. (Gosh, he really is Tony Stark) They really played this hard, with the daughter, the idyllic life, and the whole setup. He might as well have said he was five days from retirement. Still, it all worked, and the scene and its aftermath made a fitting end for the character and a fitting reflection on the end of the journey which had, after all, really begun with him. I knew it was coming, but still I wish we could have seen him ride into the sunset instead.

Cap's ending: So, despite the many significant problems this scene creates, I love it. I love it immensely, and despite its very real flaws. This is EXACTLY the ending I hoped they'd give him, because it was the only way out for the character other than death. He is my favorite character, and I was very happy to see him get to be happy. Fortunately, the problems with the scene are all in execution, not in conception. If he had gotten lost in time, instead of choosing it, and if they had shaped their rules a little differently, it could have fit more easily. Despite the issues it creates, it was wonderful to see him finally get that dance so long deferred. It made me all but cheer.

His giving the shield to Sam, as the new Cap, was just perfect. I saw it coming and got so excited I practically jumped out of my seat. It's a wonderful, fitting move, and it also gives us a Black Captain America, which is just awesome on a cultural level. I find myself fairly cold about the future of Marvel movies, but if they put out a new Captain America movie staring Falcon/Cap, I will be there with bells on!

THIS is how you add diversity to your franchise, by organic growth that honors the source material and enriches everything around it.

---------------------------

Random thoughts:

It was great seeing Pepper come in and stand with Tony. That was a wonderful little moment and a fitting end to their arc. It was one of many great little thrills of recognition and excitement in that massive scene.

In general, the final battle is wonderful, and it creates a thousand great moments that you would have to see the movie several times to properly enjoy.

Tony's embrace of Peter, his surrogate son, was wonderful and touching.

I liked seeing Rocket in his comic costume. That was a fun little touch.

Okay, the whole 'femme force' moment was a little cool and a lot cheesy. There's something neat about Marvel showing off all these great, strong female characters. Okay, I'm onboard with that. However, they created that moment just for that purpose, with not the slightest shred of plot reason for them to be together at that moment, and it was just jarring and pulled me out of the film. Do SOMETHING to set that up. Show them all battling in the vicinity or something, or give us a line of dialog. Sheesh.

Now, I loved a lot of this movie. There are a ton of great bits, but my favorite moment, hands down, was during the final battle where Cap finally wields Mjolnir, because OF COURSE he's worthy! Ohh, I cannot express how much I loved that, and to see Cap taking it to Thanos with the hammer was just fantastic. The movie was worth the price of admission for me just for that moment.

So, that's it. It's a flawed but worthwhile film, and it has some really wonderful gems in its three hour runtime.

Steve Aging: Yeah, I think it's clear he aged slower than normal.  From the car, he seemed to have gone back to the 40s, which means he would have lived through 70+ years. 

So yes, the several of y'all who made predictions about my reactions were correct.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Silver Shocker

#729
Yay, glad to see you pop up Benton! Really enjoyed hearing your thoughts!  :thumbup:

Spoiler


I think the fact that Ant-Man, of all people, is treated with more dignity than Thor says something. If nothing else, he was instrumental to kicking off the time travel plot, saved people's butts on several occasions, and had that great sequence where he goes to see Cassie (who didn't get to be a superhero yet, but hopefully she will in the future).

QuoteJokes are fine, and, in fact, necessary, in a film like this. And Endgame has lots of great, funny moments that fit its theme and tone and arise naturally from the interplay of personalities. One of my favorite moments is when Warmachine just straight-up coldcocks "Stupid Indiana Jones," Starlord. That's a great comedy beat, and it totally works as a release from the building tension of that act. In contrast, though there are some legitimately funny moments with Thor, the overall affect is wildly at odds with both the character and the context.

I was pleasantly surprised at how light-hearted this movie was, actually, considering how the last one ended. I was actually expecting the first act to be significantly bleaker than it was. The trailers certainly weren't selling a movie where Black Widow jokes that's she going to throw a PB&J sandwich at Cap's head. Or Korg playing Fortnite (that was a bit of an eye roller)

QuoteOkay, the whole 'femme force' moment was a little cool and a lot cheesy. There's something neat about Marvel showing off all these great, strong female characters. Okay, I'm onboard with that. However, they created that moment just for that purpose, with not the slightest shred of plot reason for them to be together at that moment, and it was just jarring and pulled me out of the film. Do SOMETHING to set that up. Show them all battling in the vicinity or something, or give us a line of dialog. Sheesh.

I would have to agree with you on that. I've heard some online say that Marvel wants to see how much traction that sequence gets online to see if they could put out a movie of that, and, hey, good for them. I'd watch the heck out that movie. Not only do I rather like most of the characters in that lineup, if it got made with that cast, Mantis might actually get to do something in it!  :P

It also got me thinking about the geography of the fight sequence. When you have an extended sequence showing how characters like Spider-Man get from point A to point B with the Gauntlet, or how Ant-Man and Wasp get to the van, it's a little weird to see all these female characters just lined up out of nowhere like that (maybe Wanda or Dr. Strange teleported them?) On that note, did anyone catch how the Wanda/Thanos fight ended? I could swear it just ended offscreen. It's a great sequence that absolutely needed to be in the movie (I'm still waiting for the scene where Drax wails on Thanos; hopefully it'll be on the Blu-Ray) but I could swear it copped out after they cut to a different character. I mean, X-Men Apocalypse wasn't well received, and it's not nearly as enjoyable a movie as this, but it least made to sure to demonstrate how an overpowered supporting character could wail on the main villain and still not actually win.

[EDIT] Well, rewatching Endgame, I got my answer, Wanda was defeated by the bombardment from the giant spaceship right before Captain Marvel flies through it.

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

kkhohoho

Spoiler
Quotecomics are all about hope out of tragedy and finding the third way.

That's a very narrow-minded view of comics.

Anyway, I'm still going with the alternate timeline theory. Plothole inducing as it still is, it's the only thing that makes sense. Present Nebula killing Past Nebula? Past Nebula is now an alternate version, doesn't count. Tony wiping out Thanos and his forces years from the past? They're now from an alternate timeline, it doesn't count. So on and so forth.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Silver Shocker

Spoiler


QuoteThat's a very narrow-minded view of comics.

Not the nicest way to put it. It's technically true, but that's how it is for the comics this movie's story is channeling. Watchmen is a great story, but this ain't Watchmen.

I'd sum this movie up with one word: Satisfying.  The kind of movie that puts a smile on your face as you leave the theater. I complained last year that Infinity War's ending felt like the exact opposite of that, as well as leaving the audience high and dry while they waited for the real ending. This was pretty much what I wanted all along. It's a lot sloppier than IW, but with a feel-good ending for general audiences. A crowd pleaser.

QuoteAnyway, I'm still going with the alternate timeline theory. Plothole inducing as it still is, it's the only thing that makes sense. Present Nebula killing Past Nebula? Past Nebula is now an alternate version, doesn't count. Tony wiping out Thanos and his forces years from the past? They're now from an alternate timeline, it doesn't count. So on and so forth.

The problem with that is the part with Cap at the end. If that's how it works, then how did Cap end up on that bench in front of Sam and Bucky? He didn't travel back to the present, because the machine didn't bring him back when it was supposed to. he just ditched the wrist device and lived out his life. So how did he appear there?
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

kkhohoho

Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 05:06:32 AM
Spoiler


QuoteThat's a very narrow-minded view of comics.

Not the nicest way to put it. It's technically true, but that's how it is for the comics this movie's story is channeling. Watchmen is a great story, but this ain't Watchmen.

I'd sum this movie up with one word: Satisfying.  The kind of movie that puts a smile on your face as you leave the theater. I complained last year that Infinity War's ending felt like the exact opposite of that, as well as leaving the audience high and dry while they waited for the real ending. This was pretty much what I wanted all along. It's a lot sloppier than IW, but with a feel-good ending for general audiences. A crowd pleaser.

QuoteAnyway, I'm still going with the alternate timeline theory. Plothole inducing as it still is, it's the only thing that makes sense. Present Nebula killing Past Nebula? Past Nebula is now an alternate version, doesn't count. Tony wiping out Thanos and his forces years from the past? They're now from an alternate timeline, it doesn't count. So on and so forth.

The problem with that is the part with Cap at the end. If that's how it works, then how did Cap end up on that bench in front of Sam and Bucky? He didn't travel back to the present, because the machine didn't bring him back when it was supposed to. he just ditched the wrist device and lived out his life. So how did he appear there?

Spoiler
I still said it was plothole inducing. But it's the only thing that makes any sort of sense.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Shogunn2517

Okay, I think I kinda solved my major problem with the movie and honest with similar movies as well.  And it took a while, almost felt like I had to do a Matrix and do a data download of science and and research actual theories. But I'll break it down.  And it came to me while thinking about the latest Game of Thrones episode.

Spoiler
First, the Game of Thrones part...

Spoiler
Arya saves Bran and kills the Night King with the very dagger he gave her in the very spot he gave it to her.  It kinda reminded me of the causal loop in Terminator.  In real life all future events are dependent on past events.  In order for "B" to happen there must be an "A". However in a case like Terminator and Game of Thrones, the opposite is true. A past event is dependent on a future event.  Bran knows that he has to give Arya the dagger for her to save him.  John Connor knows he has to send Reece back so he can father him.

This is Time Travel as we typically think of it.  Going back in time, from one point of the time line to another part of that same timeline.  This builds upon what's called "Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle", which says the backward time-traveled future event IS and was always a past event. And the problems we're seeing, where the Avengers go back from one time and altering the time line(Steve staying back, Steve telling himself about Bucky, Loki taking the Tesseract, Nebula shooting her past self) and how those changes don't affect the future. We're seeing it as a problem because should be changing the present. And this would lead to "Grandfather Paradox". You know the idea that if you go back in time and kill your grandfather you will prevent your own birth, which if it were possible nullifies any theory of Backward time travel.  Because if you can't go back and kill your grandfather, that makes it impossible from being able to go back at all.  If I could backward time travel, I can't prevent my own birth because doing so would prevent any possibility of it at all.  And this is where time travel gets messy.

But what happened in this movie wasn't exactly "time travel".

Another theory, which acts as a work-around of the "Grandfather Paradox" is what's called the "Everett Interpretation" or what's known as the "Many-Worlds Interpretation". It removes the randomness from quantum physics by posing that all possible actions are real. It says everything that can happen and could happen has happened and will happen.  Of course we're more familiar with this from DC "Infinite Earths".  There's Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 3, etc. And the differences between all of these Earths might be minuscule. Like the difference between Earth 512,019 and Earth 512,020 is one one Earth you read this post and on the other you didn't. Then there are some Earths were the differences are major like on another Earth, Hitler won World War II.  We know all of this, of course. But it wasn't the way we were thinking about Avengers Endgame.  Again, the problems we saw like Loki taking the Tesseract and disappearing, how does he get capture goes to Asgard, fakes his death, ends up with the Grandmaster, steals the Tesseract and get taken hostage by Thanos where he is killed when Thanos takes the Tesseract? Or how does Nebula doesn't blank her future self out of existence when she shoots and kills her past self?  All of those things still happen... but none of it was THE timeline we know or the MCU's actual Earth.  Typically and traditionally we think of going from one point of a time line and going backward to another point on that same timeline.  What they're actually doing is going from one timeline to a completely separate timeline. They may muck up that time line(and ostensibly fix it by putting the stones back where they got them) but their time line, their 1970-->2012-->2013-->2014-->2018-->2023 is still their time line.

In short, they just created a multiverse. The Infinity Stones they went and got are Infinity Stones from another Earth. And the reason why they just couldn't go back and kill baby Thanos because they wouldn't be going back and killing THEIR baby Thanos. It would be another timeline's baby Thanos.  They may fix that timeline's decimation, but their decimation still happened and there's no undoing it. The only way is to do it again with another set of Infinity Stones.  And the Nebula that Future-Nebula shot was another timeline's Nebula. So she wasn't killing herself.  She was killing another version of her. 

Again they're not going from Earth A's past-----------(to here)---------------present------(here)----------------------future.

They are:
Earth A's past----------------------------------present-------------(here)-----------future
Earth B's past-------------------(to here)-----present-------------------------------future
Earth C's past------------(and here)----------present-------------------------------future
Earth D's past----------------(and here)------present-------------------------------future
Earth E's past---(and here)-------------------present-------------------------------future

This is not "backward" travel. It's diagonal travel.

And of course the wrinkle in all of this... Captain America.  He goes back to those other Earths and puts back those other Stones.  But how does he go from Earth A to Earth B, C, D, or E and stay in Earth B, C, D or E and end up old in Earth A?  Again, even if Backward Time Travel was theoretically possible, you'd expose the "Grandfather Paradox" if you can't run the risk of preventing your own birth, it nullifies the possibility of going back at all. That is of course you go to a different timeline.  But he's back in our timeline/Earth?

Lastly, in regards to his aging, this is what I'm referencing:


This is from Truth: Red, White & Black. The story where the Super Soldier Serum was tested on black soldiers before they perfected it and gave it to Steve Rodgers. As the story goes, there was one survivor, Isaiah Bradley who never became Captain America but still had Captain America's powers but since he was never a mainstream hero he was kind of like a big deal in Black America and that's what the picture shows.  You see him in a pictures from the early 1960s to late 1960s, early 1970s, late 1970s, early 1980s, late 1980s, early 1990s and mid-1990s. And he hasn't aged.  In nearly 40 years.  So I'm under the impression, the Serum doesn't stop aging, it's possible for him to get gray hair and liver spots if they're not conditional to his physical abilities, but anything that would affect his physical ability would still be peak-human.  But in Endgame he seems older and frail. He looks AT LEAST 80-something.

BTW, theoretically, forward time travel is possible.  If we had the technology to do it.

Anyway, that's what I got.

Tomato

Spoiler
I think the movie pretty much confirmed it's multiverse theory. That's why nothing in the past affected the "present." and why Hulk blew off the idea of changing events. They just didn't want to futz over other timelines to save their own.

As for Cap... it's not what they clearly depicted, but my guess is either Hulk DID manage to bring him back to that timeline (he just futzed up the where... which IS in keeping with Hulk's character in that film), or after Peggy died Cap jumped back to the real timeline so he could give Falcon the shield.

Silver Shocker

#735
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 01, 2019, 11:57:31 AM
Okay, I think I kinda solved my major problem with the movie and honest with similar movies as well.  And it took a while, almost felt like I had to do a Matrix and do a data download of science and and research actual theories. But I'll break it down.  And it came to me while thinking about the latest Game of Thrones episode.

Spoiler
First, the Game of Thrones part...

Spoiler
Arya saves Bran and kills the Night King with the very dagger he gave her in the very spot he gave it to her.  It kinda reminded me of the causal loop in Terminator.  In real life all future events are dependent on past events.  In order for "B" to happen there must be an "A". However in a case like Terminator and Game of Thrones, the opposite is true. A past event is dependent on a future event.  Bran knows that he has to give Arya the dagger for her to save him.  John Connor knows he has to send Reece back so he can father him.

On the Game of Thrones part:

Spoiler
Is that what the Bran possessing a crow part was supposed to be about? Because I was wondering about that. That episode, as riveting as it was, was a bit hard to follow for me, because, as many pointed out online, it's REALLY darkly lit which made it a bit hard to tell what was going on.

As for the time travel stuff, that's quite the wall of text; I'm going to have to come back to that later when I've made a bit more sleep. In the meantime, please see my earlier memes.

QuoteLastly, in regards to his aging, this is what I'm referencing:


This is from Truth: Red, White & Black. The story where the Super Soldier Serum was tested on black soldiers before they perfected it and gave it to Steve Rodgers. As the story goes, there was one survivor, Isaiah Bradley who never became Captain America but still had Captain America's powers but since he was never a mainstream hero he was kind of like a big deal in Black America and that's what the picture shows.  You see him in a pictures from the early 1960s to late 1960s, early 1970s, late 1970s, early 1980s, late 1980s, early 1990s and mid-1990s. And he hasn't aged.  In nearly 40 years.  So I'm under the impression, the Serum doesn't stop aging, it's possible for him to get gray hair and liver spots if they're not conditional to his physical abilities, but anything that would affect his physical ability would still be peak-human.  But in Endgame he seems older and frail. He looks AT LEAST 80-something.



Yep, I remember that story, especially with Eli (the Patriot from Young Avengers) being related to him. I think the thing to remember is

Spoiler
1) They wanted that visual of an elderly, content Cap, having lived a full life. The mechanics to that were less important. Like, to give another example: they didn't go to the 70s because they needed Pym Particles and the Tesseract and so we can see a digitally de-aged Micheal Douglas; they went there so Cap can see Peggy and Tony can get closure with his father so those they feed their character arcs. Or Luke staring at twin suns in The Last Jedi.

2) The powersets, and how they work, for various superhero characters, vary from iteration to iteration. For example, so far, the Gal Gadot Wonder Woman can't fly. In the case of Captain America, Ultimate Cap, for example, has outright super strength and is capable of bending metal with his hands, beating up the Hulk and lifting a truck.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

#736
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
Yay, glad to see you pop up Benton! Really enjoyed hearing your thoughts!  :thumbup:

Thanks SS!  That's a very nice welcome!  :D  Glad you enjoyed my ramblings!

Spoiler

Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
I think the fact that Ant-Man, of all people, is treated with more dignity than Thor says something. If nothing else, he was instrumental to kicking off the time travel plot, saved people's butts on several occasions, and had that great sequence where he goes to see Cassie (who didn't get to be a superhero yet, but hopefully she will in the future).

ABSOLUTELY.  Ha, that's very well said.  He's funny, but he actually has an emotional arc that, surprise surprise, isn't undercut during the key moments.  They play it straight when he finds Cassie.  They play it straight when he meets up with the Wasp.  And he's the biggest comedy relief character!

Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
I was pleasantly surprised at how light-hearted this movie was, actually, considering how the last one ended. I was actually expecting the first act to be significantly bleaker than it was. The trailers certainly weren't selling a movie where Black Widow jokes that's she going to throw a PB&J sandwich at Cap's head. Or Korg playing Fortnite (that was a bit of an eye roller)

Agreed.  I was braced for something pretty grim, and I was afraid they were going to wallow in it for a while.  As is, I feel like they actually handled it pretty well.


Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
I would have to agree with you on that. I've heard some online say that Marvel wants to see how much traction that sequence gets online to see if they could put out a movie of that, and, hey, good for them. I'd watch the heck out that movie. Not only do I rather like most of the characters in that lineup, if it got made with that cast, Mantis might actually get to do something in it!  :P

Haha, well, I like the idea, just not the execution.  It would be great if they put out an all-female led team movie.  I just hope they find some good reason to group those characters, because there's not good links between all of them. 

Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
It also got me thinking about the geography of the fight sequence. When you have an extended sequence showing how characters like Spider-Man get from point A to point B with the Gauntlet, or how Ant-Man and Wasp get to the van, it's a little weird to see all these female characters just lined up out of nowhere like that (maybe Wanda or Dr. Strange teleported them?) On that note, did anyone catch how the Wanda/Thanos fight ended? I could swear it just ended offscreen. It's a great sequence that absolutely needed to be in the movie (I'm still waiting for the scene where Drax wails on Thanos; hopefully it'll be on the Blu-Ray) but I could swear it copped out after they cut to a different character. I mean, X-Men Apocalypse wasn't well received, and it's not nearly as enjoyable a movie as this, but it least made to sure to demonstrate how an overpowered supporting character could wail on the main villain and still not actually win.

Yeah, I want to go back and just watch that end sequence a couple of times.  There is a TON going on.  I was also sad we didn't see Drax vs. Thanos.  That seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, but this wasn't really Drax's movie.


Quote from: kkhohoho on May 01, 2019, 03:53:38 AM
Quotecomics are all about hope out of tragedy and finding the third way.

That's a very narrow-minded view of comics.

True.  It also happens to be the correct one.  ;)  Ha, seriously though, I am willing to defend that claim.  Superhero comics (which is what I mean, to be clear), grew out of the Great Depression, and they were all about finding hope in a more fantastic world than the grim reality folks faced every day (coincidentally, I am fairly certain this is why these movies are so popular in our own day and age).  That is the the through-line of superhero comics, though they can and do tackle other themes often enough.  The core elements in the conception of the superhero are power fantasies and hope.  We are not strong or tough enough to fight off danger or correct injustice, so we invent a Superman.  We lack the strength to turn tragedy into triumph, so we invent a Batman.  There is more to comics, but these ideas are in their DNA at the most basic level.

Shogunn, really interesting!  Also, I'm glad you enjoyed this one more than the last one.  I'm sorry you had so many problems with Infinity War (because tone is hard in text, to be clear, I mean this earnestly).

Further thoughts on plot holes:
Spoiler
So, based on what y'all have been saying and further reflection, I see that I didn't entirely understand the movies (rather clumsy and confusing) explanation of their time rules.  The future can't be changed, because it already exists, and the characters are pulled back to that extant future.  Their travel mechanism is external, based in that time, unlike in Back to the Future.  Thus, when alternate timelines/alternate universes, whatever, are created/entered by their actions, they remain independent from the characters' actual future.  That works, but it is rather drastically unsatisfying in terms of how much it still FEELS messy.

As Shogunn and others have said, the problem that remains is Cap, since he shows back up in the regular timeline, apparently, from what we see on screen, having gotten there the long way, and lived to THEIR future, which should be TOTALLY impossible.  'Mato, your workaround is the only thing that makes sense, but it's implicitly contradicted by what we see.  We can get their by some mental gymnastics, but we're doing the filmmakers' work for them, which is a failure of the film.  That said, your solution actually also solves the thematic problems of his ending, because it means that Cap could have gone on to have a long and glorious career as the Captain America of the 50s and on, rather than uncharacteristically just sitting out the rest of history.  Their future would remain unchanged, but he had alternate universe/timeline adventures (which, by the way, I would kill to see!  :lol: ).

I really want to watch the final act again...but I'm rather reluctant to go sit through the entire movie, including the bits I hated, again.  Ha.  :P  I wish:
Spoiler
I could bottle the pure joy and awesomeness of that scene with Cap wielding Mjolnir!
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Shogunn2517

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 01, 2019, 04:22:01 PM
Shogunn, really interesting!  Also, I'm glad you enjoyed this one more than the last one.  I'm sorry you had so many problems with Infinity War (because tone is hard in text, to be clear, I mean this earnestly).

Lol, no worries, I gotcha, bro. But to be honest, at this point, it's hard for me to see them as separate movies, Infinity War and Endgame. I went back and reread my comments and I'm still just kinda confused why were they insisting they were to be two separate movie.  I mean I guess technically you can watch Avengers:AOA without having watched Avengers and you can watch Avengers: IW without having watched AOA or Avengers. But it's hard to imagine that someone can watch Endgame without having watched IW. But that's neither here nor there.

But I do have this question about what you said, Benton. If anyone else his following his logic, feel free to chip in... I suppose we're all still trying to figure this one out.

Quote
Spoiler

As Shogunn and others have said, the problem that remains is Cap, since he shows back up in the regular timeline, apparently, from what we see on screen, having gotten there the long way, and lived to THEIR future, which should be TOTALLY impossible.  'Mato, your workaround is the only thing that makes sense, but it's implicitly contradicted by what we see.  We can get their by some mental gymnastics, but we're doing the filmmakers' work for them, which is a failure of the film.  That said, your solution actually also solves the thematic problems of his ending, because it means that Cap could have gone on to have a long and glorious career as the Captain America of the 50s and on, rather than uncharacteristically just sitting out the rest of history.  Their future would remain unchanged, but he had alternate universe/timeline adventures (which, by the way, I would kill to see!  :lol: ).

Spoiler
If Captain America did indeed go on to have a glorious career as the Captain America in the 50s and he was there to not turn away from Korean, Vietnam, Cold War, Russians, etc, there by not sitting out history... wouldn't Sam had not just heard of him but known he was Captain America in his timeline? Which would negate his "living in a world without Captain America" because he lived in a world with Captain America?  I dunno. I guess I'll have to go see this movie AGAIN. Darn.

Speaking of...

QuoteI really want to watch the final act again...but I'm rather reluctant to go sit through the entire movie, including the bits I hated, again.  Ha.  :P  I wish:
Spoiler
I could bottle the pure joy and awesomeness of that scene with Cap wielding Mjolnir!

I'm seriously thinking about buying a ticket... watching the first scene or two the leaving. Go home, go to the gym, get something to eat, or walk around the mall... come back a few hours later just for the last part!  :lol:


BentonGrey

#738
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 02, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
Lol, no worries, I gotcha, bro. But to be honest, at this point, it's hard for me to see them as separate movies, Infinity War and Endgame. I went back and reread my comments and I'm still just kinda confused why were they insisting they were to be two separate movie.  I mean I guess technically you can watch Avengers:AOA without having watched Avengers and you can watch Avengers: IW without having watched AOA or Avengers. But it's hard to imagine that someone can watch Endgame without having watched IW. But that's neither here nor there.

Agreed.  That was more or less my take on IW to begin with, which is why, though I understood your reservations, I wasn't troubled by them.  I'm glad that this has helped.

Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 02, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
But I do have this question about what you said, Benton. If anyone else his following his logic, feel free to chip in... I suppose we're all still trying to figure this one out.

Spoiler

If Captain America did indeed go on to have a glorious career as the Captain America in the 50s and he was there to not turn away from Korean, Vietnam, Cold War, Russians, etc, there by not sitting out history... wouldn't Sam had not just heard of him but known he was Captain America in his timeline? Which would negate his "living in a world without Captain America" because he lived in a world with Captain America?  I dunno. I guess I'll have to go see this movie AGAIN. Darn.

Ahh, see, that's the genius of this approach (however much we have to do the narrative work which the filmmakers should have done):
Spoiler
According to their specific time travel rules, whatever it looks like, Cap CAN'T have lived his life out in this timeline, because by going back, he's creating an alternate future, completely separate from theirs.  This is essentially Back to the Future rules.  If you change the past, you create an alternate timeline/universe, and if you keep moving forward in that timeline, like, by living through it, you move into the future of THAT timeline.  The only way this works is 'Mato's idea, that he went back, created an alternate timeline, and then jumped back to their future with his device at the end of it.  It is super messy, but it allows for whatever we want to have happened in another timeline, as nothing he did could affect their future.

Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 02, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
Speaking of...

QuoteI really want to watch the final act again...but I'm rather reluctant to go sit through the entire movie, including the bits I hated, again.  Ha.  :P  I wish:
Spoiler
I could bottle the pure joy and awesomeness of that scene with Cap wielding Mjolnir!

I'm seriously thinking about buying a ticket... watching the first scene or two the leaving. Go home, go to the gym, get something to eat, or walk around the mall... come back a few hours later just for the last part!  :lol:

Haha!  I don't blame you!  I have considered the same thing!  :lol:  That may be my favorite Marvel movie moment to date.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

HarryTrotter

Time isnt a straight line,its more like a timey-wimey....okay,I cant do this... 🙂
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Shogunn2517

BTW, word around the campfire has it that the first film of phase four will introduce a character we should have saw coming...

Phase 4 Spoiler:
Spoiler
Guardians of the Galaxy 3 will introduce Beta Ray Bill.

Phase 3 Spoiler:
Spoiler
Which considering Stormbreaker was made in Infinity War and Thor left with the Guardians of the Galaxy in Endgame, yeah we should have saw it coming.

Tomato

Spoiler
The Russo's have shot down my little hand waving... Cap absolutely did stay in the past in secret and anything he did has already happened in the current timeline. My understanding is that they are taking the river theory of time... It branches off if something like a paradox happens, but can flow back together so long as events still line back up.

I'm torn, tbh. On the one hand, it's a LOT messier this way, and stuff like Loki is unresolved which is frustrating but I'm sure will be resolved in the Loki show. And I agree with the idea that Cap would never try to help in major events rings hollow.

Buuuuuuut... on the other hand, the major problem I had with my own theory is it failed to settle a long running mystery of the MCU. We know from one of the films, I forget whether it was WS or Civil War, that Peggy had Children. We never found out with whom, a fact that the Agent Carter show played up to a ridiculously degree (the second season even had a musical number, it got silly). Thing was, none of the shows candidates were really that viable, and it being Steve explains why she never told him. And old-Steve likely knew better than to visit his wife on days he was there.

It's still super messy though. I think the best explanation was that Tony's snap was to revert everyone to where they were supposed to be with no memory of the timeline changes resulting from their interference. The changes still happened, but without memory of it later events still go as they did originally, with any changes Steve made having always happened.

God this is why time travel is awful.

BentonGrey

Shogunn:

Spoiler
Well, that's cool, I guess.  I'd be really excited about that if they hadn't poisoned Thor's character root and branch.

'Mato:
Spoiler
Well...that's stupid.  It can work, but yeah, it is WAY messier, and it leaves the thematic/character problems unresolved.  It would have been so much simpler the way you suggested.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

BRANDEN

There's eventually talk the Inhuman's film might be dropped, by virtue of noteworthy utilization of In people in Agents of SHIELD, despite the way in which that the TV and motion picture approach are at present obliged by completely various individuals

Silver Shocker

#744
New, spoilerific Spider-Man trailer

Spoiler


-The snap opened rifts into other dimensions. Ok then, so that's what going on in the new Agents of Shield season. Either that or Mysterio's faking and it's a complete coincidence. Or both.
-Man, poor Jon Favreau is getting old.
-"*&^& please, you've been to space."  :lol:

Mysterio's looking pretty good. By which I mean, of course, his fishbowl.  ^_^
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Wait,is that...Spoony?  :D
Okay,that kid at the end kinda looks like Spoony.

So Mysterio is now Abra Kadabra?And I guess Donnie Darko is now explained.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

BentonGrey

Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that.  It looks like fun, but that seems like rather a big departure if, as SS says, they're telling the truth.  Hmm.  Also:

Spoiler
Spider-Man having these connections to Fury/Happy, while thematically appropriate, sort of undermine the whole "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" thing.  It fits in their universe, but it isn't really all that fitting for the comic character, at least to me.  This isn't necessarily a problem, just a discordant note that I notice.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

HarryTrotter

Sort of how they made Tony into Uncle Ben?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Benton:

Spoiler
I was totally thinking that today since seeing the trailer. Opening up the multiverse? Sure. Doing it in a Spider-Man film? Seems like the wrong play. But Spider-Man makes money. So Spider-Man gets another movie, and that's the movie that gets the "what happens after Endgame" stuff.

Spider-Man' supposed to (generally) be the street-level, down-to earth, "Friendly Neighborhood" Spider-Man fighting crooks who want to pull a heist. This is, like, the thematic opposite of that. It should be the premise of a Guardians (again, Cancerverse, make it happen, Feige!) or Doctor Strange. Of course, multiverse in Spidey gives them some options (assuming Sony doesn't have the exclusive rights to those characters in the movies.

QuoteWait,is that...Spoony?  :D
Okay,that kid at the end kinda looks like Spoony.

Are you talking about Flash? Because I went back and checked the end of the trailer and if it's not Flash I'm not sure who you're talking about.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Yes.And I have to get some new material. ☺
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer