STAR WARS: Episode VII - The Force Awakens

Started by Shogunn2517, November 06, 2014, 08:51:17 PM

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Talavar

Quote from: Spade on December 22, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
People did like the prequels at the time.Anybody who said they walked out in the middle of Phantom Menace is lying.But the farther away we got,the worst they became.
And a year away from TFA,people are a lot more objective about it then last year.And the truth is,its a really lazy movie.Just saying.

The Force Awakens is lazy with the plot, no question.  But it handled characters, characterization, dialogue, FX choices and production design beautifully.  The prequels actually have a very interesting and unique plot, but nearly every element is either terrible, out of keeping with Star Wars as a whole, or both. 

And people knew the prequels were bad right away.  Sure, it was hard to accept, coming out of an opening night screening of the Phantom Menace, but by the home video release, all but the hardest of hardcore Star Wars fans, and kids, who aren't discerning, had realized it was bad. 

I think that's what's so upsetting to a lot of fans about the prequels: it's not just that they're bad, but that you can see this fascinating story bungled with poor direction for the actors (there's a lot of top-notch talent in the Prequels who are giving the worst performances of their lives or just squandered), and bad production choices (as well as a serious laziness about lining up with original movies).

HarryTrotter

On the TFA front,I have to say I found everyone there pretty bland.And dont even get me started on the villains
On the prequels,I mostly agree.I remember after Phantom Menace,everyone thought it was awesome(mostly for the Darth Maul scenes),but rewatching the movie you find there is a lot less Darth Maul and a lot more pod racing then you remember.And the Jesus metaphor isnt really subtle.But still,its not as bad as people claim,but its not good either.
Its just that we have the benefit of the hindsight there,as opposed to the current movie.Which will probably never end,because this is pretty much MCU 2.0.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

spydermann93

#92
I don't know. I would say more "safe" than "lazy". More care went into TFA than the prequels with more attention to detail, practical props, and a somewhat decent script. A lot of the (main) characters were likeable, had quite a good amount of personality, and much of the interactions between the main cast were actually enjoyale to watch (plot armor aside in some cases).

The thing is, a lot of the movie was doing what A New Hope did, almost scene for scene in a lot of cases. It was a smart move (financially) on Disney's side in that they didn't really risk a lot on trying to come up with anything genuinely new while still pumping tons of production into bringing characters and sets that people will actually want to watch over and over.

As for the next movie, since TFA has already gain ed the trust of a HUGE amount of Star Wars fans, I think that Episode VIII will be where we see more divergence and actually attempt to grow the Star Wars universe into something new. At least, that's my hope for the franchise.

EDIT: BLAST! Just saw an extra page and that Talavar has essentially posted what I did. Curse my unawareness!

Talavar

Safe is a good way to describe it, and I think we're seeing Disney move beyond the safety zone with Rogue One.  Its got its own thread, but they definitely didn't stick to safe decisions there.

BentonGrey

Wow, y'all are being more merciful than that film deserves.  It was fun to watch, but it was a very flawed movie.

Quote from: Talavar on December 22, 2016, 02:27:09 PM
I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment, Benton.  As TFA opens, the First Order, while outgunning the Resistance, only controls a small part of the galaxy and is reported as being significantly weaker than the New Republic.  Despite the surgical strike suffered in TFA, the New Republic should still be stronger--and definitively on the Resistance side, unlike in TFA.  Any engagements in Episode 8 should be on much more equal footing than anything we saw in the original trilogy.

Except, that's completely not borne out by the film.  One of the many flaws with this movie is that the setting doesn't make sense with what the opening scrawl describes.  Despite supposedly not having the resources of the Empire, the First Order creates a PLANET SIZED SUPER WEAPON.  Also, we're explicitly told that the entire New Republic fleet was destroyed, along with the government, when the Order destroyed all those planets.  Now, that's intensely stupid, as it makes no sense that their ENTIRE fleet would be in one place, but that's what we're told nonetheless.  So, if we DO see a setting with an even footing, it will be in contradiction of the sloppy plot of TFA. 

Quote from: Talavar on December 22, 2016, 02:27:09 PM
Really, we don't know anything about Luke's motives.  We hear what others say about him, but that's all their supposition--it's not like they've been chatting.  Anything I propose is purely supposition, but so is your statement about him.  Han and Leia's developments, while said, also ring very true.  They've essentially lost a child before TFA opens, and how they react to that is very human.

Nonetheless, they're still in more or less the same spot in life.  They've suffered something terrible, so, like I said, they're just sadder and older, but they are still where they were.  It's like a Galactic version of Groundhog Day.

Quote from: Talavar on December 22, 2016, 02:27:09 PM
Finally, describing the characters' journey as pointless because everything didn't work out awesome forever always is shortsighted.  Han and Leia must have had some good years in there, maybe a couple of decades worth.  But as much as there are real world reasons we're not seeing those years, there are narrative ones as well--the series isn't call Star Raising a Troubled Teen, after all.

The Force Awakens isn't perfect, but to write it off as merely a reset, and the characters' journeys as pointless because at various points in 30 years time they've encountered further setbacks and difficulties, is both reductive and reactionary.

Come now, Tal, I'm not describing the journey as pointless because it didn't 'work out awesome,' I'm describing it that way because it didn't work out at all.  The movie undid everything productive about the first three movies, and the growth the characters and the setting experienced through those stories was discarded.  I'd call that a reset alright.  Yeah, the lost child of Han and Leia is something new, even interesting, but it comes at the expense of everything else.  We don't even see much done with it because they have a grand total of one scene together.  Having setbacks is one thing.  Facing tragedy is one thing.  The unforgivable part of the film for me was not just that it made all of my favorite characters miserable, but that it did so by reversing everything they had already done.  Conflict is in the nature of story, but it didn't have to be this way.

Quote from: Talavar on December 22, 2016, 05:09:27 PM
The Force Awakens is lazy with the plot, no question.  But it handled characters, characterization, dialogue, FX choices and production design beautifully.  The prequels actually have a very interesting and unique plot, but nearly every element is either terrible, out of keeping with Star Wars as a whole, or both. 

Characterization was handled pretty well (with some glaring missteps), but character development was atrocious.  The film's great strength (in comparison to the Prequels) was that its characters were actually likable.  Yet, neither of them made any sense in the film.  They were just as much examples of convenience and coincidence as the plot, and speaking of which....

Quote from: spydermann93 on December 22, 2016, 07:27:28 PM
I don't know. I would say more "safe" than "lazy". More care went into TFA than the prequels with more attention to detail, practical props, and a somewhat decent script. A lot of the (main) characters were likeable, had quite a good amount of personality, and much of the interactions between the main cast were actually enjoyale to watch (plot armor aside in some cases).

Spyder, I don't think there's any defense of the film as anything OTHER than lazy.  The writing (in regards to plot rather than dialog, for the most part) was a master class in lazy plotting and problem solving.  In fact, I'll probably use it as an example of how not to solve story problems in creative writing class. 

It's a fun movie to watch, but it's a modern blockbuster, specifically, a modern blockbuster by Abrams, which means it's all show and now stay.

The problem with describing the film as "safe" is that you're effectively just explaining its mediocrity without excusing it.  Safety is why we're seeing remake after remake, rather than original ideas.  It makes sense financially, but it doesn't make the art any better.  This movie, as a movie, was quite mediocre.  As a Star Wars film, it doesn't even qualify since it is just a sad remake of the first one.  Even worse, safe doesn't have to be a COMPLETE rehash.  You could have accomplished the same safety by recreating the feel of the first movie without just remaking it. 
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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spydermann93

Quote from: BentonGrey on December 23, 2016, 04:59:32 AM
Wow, y'all are being more merciful than that film deserves.  It was fun to watch, but it was a very flawed movie.

Flawed, yes. But I don't think I was being too merciful. Like I said, while they didn't do anything exactly new and the plot was essentially A New Hope all over again, but they still put enough effort into making the film enjoyable and at least tried to be respectful to the original trilogy.

Quote from: BentonGrey on December 23, 2016, 04:59:32 AMExcept, that's completely not borne out by the film.  One of the many flaws with this movie is that the setting doesn't make sense with what the opening scrawl describes.  Despite supposedly not having the resources of the Empire, the First Order creates a PLANET SIZED SUPER WEAPON.  Also, we're explicitly told that the entire New Republic fleet was destroyed, along with the government, when the Order destroyed all those planets.  Now, that's intensely stupid, as it makes no sense that their ENTIRE fleet would be in one place, but that's what we're told nonetheless.  So, if we DO see a setting with an even footing, it will be in contradiction of the sloppy plot of TFA.

Agreed, the whole government and it's fleet being destroyed in one go was kind of dumb (even though the same kind of thing happened when Death Star II and Palpatine blew up). I really don't like that the good guys are called the "Resistance" when they work for the government in power. I really don't get that. Perhaps they mentioned something about it in the movie, but I guess I missed it.

Quote from: BentonGrey on December 23, 2016, 04:59:32 AMSpyder, I don't think there's any defense of the film as anything OTHER than lazy.  The writing (in regards to plot rather than dialog, for the most part) was a master class in lazy plotting and problem solving.  In fact, I'll probably use it as an example of how not to solve story problems in creative writing class. 

It's a fun movie to watch, but it's a modern blockbuster, specifically, a modern blockbuster by Abrams, which means it's all show and now stay.

The problem with describing the film as "safe" is that you're effectively just explaining its mediocrity without excusing it.  Safety is why we're seeing remake after remake, rather than original ideas.  It makes sense financially, but it doesn't make the art any better.  This movie, as a movie, was quite mediocre.  As a Star Wars film, it doesn't even qualify since it is just a sad remake of the first one.  Even worse, safe doesn't have to be a COMPLETE rehash.  You could have accomplished the same safety by recreating the feel of the first movie without just remaking it.

To be fair, I was describing it as "safe" as an explanation and nothing more. I wasn't exactly using "safe" as a defense, more of just a "better" description than "lazy". I'm not saying it was good because it was a safe movie to make; I was saying that it was safe because it wasn't a risky movie to produce.  Although, I still thought that the movie was fun enough. Worth the movie ticket and popcorn I paid for, imho, even if only for the aesthetics of the film. :P

I will say though, I completely understand why you don't like this movie. The plot wasn't anything ground-breaking and to go in tandem with your "it's a modern blockbuster", we've seen this movie before, but it does have some neat characters in it and the Memetrooper, lol

HarryTrotter

There is another thing,originally the conflict lasted some 19 years more after RotJ,till a peace was achived and the Empire(a lot smaller one thou) continued to coexist with the New Republic.Here it took a few months for the Empire to completely fall apart.Which doesn't make a lot of sense,as usual.

Yeah,that's the detail that's been bothering-why Resistance?They are in power now and the First Order is a terrorist organization.That can build Death Star XXL without anyone noticing.Somehow.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Talavar

Quote from: BentonGrey on December 23, 2016, 04:59:32 AM
Except, that's completely not borne out by the film.  One of the many flaws with this movie is that the setting doesn't make sense with what the opening scrawl describes.  Despite supposedly not having the resources of the Empire, the First Order creates a PLANET SIZED SUPER WEAPON.  Also, we're explicitly told that the entire New Republic fleet was destroyed, along with the government, when the Order destroyed all those planets.  Now, that's intensely stupid, as it makes no sense that their ENTIRE fleet would be in one place, but that's what we're told nonetheless.  So, if we DO see a setting with an even footing, it will be in contradiction of the sloppy plot of TFA. 

The superweapon in TFA would take significantly fewer resources than a Death Star.  It's planet-sized because it's a planet they weaponized, rather than the purely constructed Death Stars.  As to the New Republic fleet being destroyed, I agree it's a bit dumb, but they're also at peace.  The Old Republic from the prequels had no fleet at all, or soldiers (excluding jedi).  Now that the First Order has effectively had its Pearl Harbour moment, I'd expect the New Republic to ramp up and reconcile with the fringe Resistance.

Quote
Come now, Tal, I'm not describing the journey as pointless because it didn't 'work out awesome,' I'm describing it that way because it didn't work out at all.  The movie undid everything productive about the first three movies, and the growth the characters and the setting experienced through those stories was discarded.  I'd call that a reset alright.  Yeah, the lost child of Han and Leia is something new, even interesting, but it comes at the expense of everything else.  We don't even see much done with it because they have a grand total of one scene together.  Having setbacks is one thing.  Facing tragedy is one thing.  The unforgivable part of the film for me was not just that it made all of my favorite characters miserable, but that it did so by reversing everything they had already done.  Conflict is in the nature of story, but it didn't have to be this way.

Reversing everything they've done?  All but a remnant of the Empire has been defeated for decades.  That's a pretty big accomplishment that doesn't get undone.  We're seeing an evil resurgence here, but that doesn't invalidate the previous victory.

Quote
Characterization was handled pretty well (with some glaring missteps), but character development was atrocious.  The film's great strength (in comparison to the Prequels) was that its characters were actually likable.  Yet, neither of them made any sense in the film.  They were just as much examples of convenience and coincidence as the plot, and speaking of which....

Personally, I enjoyed the character development of the new characters, and thought they largely made sense within the context of the story.  I agree that there's a measure of coincidence, but Star Wars always has had that.  In a universe with explicit destiny/higher power guidance, I'm okay with that more than in other franchises/settings.

QuoteThere is another thing,originally the conflict lasted some 19 years more after RotJ,till a peace was achived and the Empire(a lot smaller one thou) continued to coexist with the New Republic.Here it took a few months for the Empire to completely fall apart.Which doesn't make a lot of sense,as usual.

Yeah,that's the detail that's been bothering-why Resistance?They are in power now and the First Order is a terrorist organization.That can build Death Star XXL without anyone noticing.Somehow.

Spade, the Resistance wanted to keep fighting the Empire remnants while the New Republic wanted to make peace.  They're a fringe group, not the government--which is why their resources are limited, and why the name.

Personally, I always found the length of time the empire chugged along in the old EU ridiculous.  It lasted almost as long without the Emperor as it did with him.  The Empire, despite the name, was really just a dictatorship--there was no mechanism for succession, no long history of imperial rule, military enforcement, broad spectrum resistance.  It was centered and structured around the Emperor, so it makes sense historically for it not to outlast him by much.

HarryTrotter

Only,countries and empires dont fall apart in days,or even months.Take the Roman empire.The Golden Horde,Soviet Union...
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

catwhowalksbyhimself

Who ever said the First Order was merely a small Terrorist organization?  My impressed was that they were a remnant of the empire that never joined the Republic but reformed as a modified entity.  They still build starships and raise soldiers from birth.  They probably control several planets at least.

I always figured the Resistance is exactly that.  A group from within First Order territory that rebels against them and has been getting support for the Republic without the republic itself being involved.  It's pretty obvious that there's barely a difference but it's the kind of techincal difference that still exists today.  Russia's basically fighting in the Syrian Civil War now for example without techincally being involved.  They are supplying one side with weapons, leadership and logistics, but they aren't technically in there, so the internatinal community politely pretends like they aren't, but everyone knows that they are.  Same is true with the US (in the same and other conflicts) and with quite a few other countries too.

Reality is Unrealistic I guess.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

Talavar

Quote from: Spade on December 23, 2016, 06:09:19 PM
Only,countries and empires dont fall apart in days,or even months.Take the Roman empire.The Golden Horde,Soviet Union...

But that's exactly my point--the Empire isn't like the Roman Empire, not to mention that lots of countries have fallen apart in days or months. 

Sure, the Roman Empire took centuries to fall, but that's because it had a weight of centuries behind it.  The Empire in Star Wars is much more of a dictatorship like Nazi Germany, and so many other small tin pot ones.  They're built by a small core group and propped up by military force, and most of which fell hard and fast once the leader in question was gone.  Even the Soviet Union, which survived numerous succession crises, fell fast once it started. 

Think about it: the Empire had had no rulers but the Emperor, with presumably Vader as heir-apparent.  Rogue One gives us a nice example of what happens to overly ambitious Imperial officers.  We're told in Star Wars that the senate has been done away with, with the Emperor counting on local military governors to rule, backed up by the fleet and Death Star.  With the Death Star(s) gone, the fleet divided/on the run, systems are going to be rebelling left and right.  Things would snowball quickly--as more star systems go over to the Rebellion/New Republic, the empire remnants get weaker and the New Republic gets stronger.  There's no clear successor to the emperor, so high ranking governors/admirals could very well end up fighting each other with whatever troops and ships are loyal to them personally.

HarryTrotter

You do realise a civil war after Emperors death doesnt translate into years of peace?

If we are talking in realpolitik terms here-Uncle Sam carpet bombs people because they MIGHT have weapons of mass destruction,the Republic doesnt give a cr@p that they have Death Star XXL right around the corner.
Also,why leave a very similar design flaw when building the thing?Again?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

GhostMachine

You'd think that at some point the Empire (or any affiliated group) would learn that Death Stars are a bad idea....

At this point, I almost think the end of the franchise should have the bad guys build a Death Star in the same system/galaxy that their base is in, only for the heroes to hijack the Death Star and use it to blow that planet up. Or crash the Death Star into it. And its made abundantly clear that all the bad guys are on the planet when it happens.




HarryTrotter

At least it wasn't advertised as the first Death Star EVER. :rolleyes:
And coming from the people who apparently produced the first SW comics ever(Forgetting even Marvels own),and invented the concept of female villains,thats some self-control.

I cant wait for the next reboot in a few years.Then the same people will convincing us that its the first copy of New Hope ever.And that TFA and Rogue One were never canon.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Talavar

Quote from: Spade on December 24, 2016, 06:41:38 AM
You do realise a civil war after Emperors death doesnt translate into years of peace?

If we are talking in realpolitik terms here-Uncle Sam carpet bombs people because they MIGHT have weapons of mass destruction,the Republic doesnt give a cr@p that they have Death Star XXL right around the corner.
Also,why leave a very similar design flaw when building the thing?Again?

No, but an Imperial civil war happening during a war with the Rebellion/nascent New Republic would help both end very quickly.

As to TFA, it doesn't really give us any insight into what the New Republic government/military think or are doing.  We spend no time with them.  They may not have realized the construction (remember, it was on a pre-existing planet) was a Death Star-style superweapon. 

Quote from: Spade on December 24, 2016, 02:31:24 PM
At least it wasn't advertised as the first Death Star EVER. :rolleyes:
And coming from the people who apparently produced the first SW comics ever(Forgetting even Marvels own),and invented the concept of female villains,thats some self-control.

I cant wait for the next reboot in a few years.Then the same people will convincing us that its the first copy of New Hope ever.And that TFA and Rogue One were never canon.

I don't understand what you're talking about here, except to point out that the Star Wars universe hasn't been rebooted a first time, so talking about the next reboot is nonsensical.

HarryTrotter

For somebody who hated Dark Empire,you sure forgot a lot of it.

Again,things dont work out that way.Germany didnt fell in one battle.It took Stalingrad,Kursk,El Alamein,Normandy...
To summarize,RotJ was the D-day,but it wasnt the final battle.The war still went on,except in Disneys take.The notion that the entire Imperial army just gave up after the Emperor died is cartoonish.
And dont be surprised when another reboot happens in a few year.And once again,people like you will be there to convince us it all sucked from the start.And how THEY knew it.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Guys, chill a bit.

Force Awakens is a safe, uninteresting, and in some regards lazy film that still has some cool visual elements and characters that make it more watchable than other films in the franchise. It is not perfect, I would even go so far as to say it wasn't that good as a whole, but I like it in the same way I like mid-level films from other franchises, and I am hopeful that successive films will be better.

As it stands, we can sit here and argue about the number of plot holes and inconsistencies in this film until the day we die: Star Wars fans have been doing that with every film ever since the original trilogy. Wah, Ewoks, wah Jar Jar, wah midichlorians. Yes, I think we'll all look back at them with a more critical eye later: This is the nature of film today in general. While I can honestly say I still think TDK is my favorite Batman film (due mostly to Harvey Dent being my favorite villain and his role being an integral part of the film), by the time the sequel came out, I was ready for the series to end already and move on to the next reboot. But even with that, I don't regret watching any of the 3 films in that trilogy... nor do I think I'll regret having watched Force Awakens. If nothing else, female protagonists who actually do things in action films gives me the warm fuzzies.

HarryTrotter

How dare you interfere when two nerds are arguing about something that doesnt concern them personaly and that they have no personal gain from?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Talavar

Quote from: Spade on December 24, 2016, 05:53:36 PM
For somebody who hated Dark Empire,you sure forgot a lot of it.

Again,things dont work out that way.Germany didnt fell in one battle.It took Stalingrad,Kursk,El Alamein,Normandy...
To summarize,RotJ was the D-day,but it wasnt the final battle.The war still went on,except in Disneys take.The notion that the entire Imperial army just gave up after the Emperor died is cartoonish.
And dont be surprised when another reboot happens in a few year.And once again,people like you will be there to convince us it all sucked from the start.And how THEY knew it.

Do you read posts before you respond?  At this point I have to assume not, but just in case--point to where I said the Imperial army would give up.  Flung into chaos and disarray, sure.  Easier to deal with while worried about rebelling populaces and infighting, also true.  But the idiotic version you evidently prefer is the equivalent of WWII going on for twenty years after Hitler died in his bunker.  First, the Empire rallied around Thrawn, then the resurrected Emperor, then some other admiral, then some other admiral and on and on--they had more rallies than a high school football team.  It was nonsensical.

More evidence of you not reading posts: Star Wars has never been rebooted, as I already said.  Because Star Wars is a series of films, one the new movies continue from.  Before you cry about the old EU, well, it wasn't the first kick at the can either.  Ever read Splinter in the Mind's Eye?  It got invalidated by a little film called Empire Strikes Back.  Or the old Marvel Star Wars comics?  Wiped out ages ago when Marvel lost the license.  As much as Lucasfilm claimed the EU was canon, it didn't stop the Prequels from contradicting it from the get go.  And I'm sure (and also have said repeatedly in these posts you apparently don't read) Disney will eventually contradict their own new EU, because the movies always come first.  Some cartoon, book or comic book isn't going to stop what they want to do in film.

And that's as it should be.  People like me will be there to tell you it sucked, because--and here's a lesson you should have learned as a teenager--most media tie-ins suck.  Most Star Wars tie-ins suck.  Most Star Trek tie-ins suck.  Same goes for Doctor Who.  At least the other big franchises don't try and pretend it's all canon though.  Sure, Disney's been paying a high attention to quality so far, but Rebels is mediocre with some good parts, a lot of the novels have not been particularly well reviewed, some of the comics have been good, and others have been weak--but eventually that attention will falter under the sheer mass of material as they churn out book after book, comic after comic, etc.  It's what happened to the old EU, which again you apparently missed, I said started well with the Heir to the Empire/Timothy Zahn books (it just went wrong very quickly).

HarryTrotter

Your accusing other people of not reading responses?Oh,the irony.

Also,thanks for opening our eyes,wise neckbeard.Really,thanks for sharing the red pill with the rest of us.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

catwhowalksbyhimself

Now, now the insulting and such is really not what this community is about.  Also, Tomato already nicely asked you guys to chill, and he is a Titan, so that means chill.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

HarryTrotter

1)Does Titan mean hes a moderator?
2)I dont need anyone to explain me what I should have stopped liking as a teenager.Its insulting and condesending,to say the least.
3)I said what I had to say and Im ending this.Everyone is free to like whatever they want,but dont tell me what I should like.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

BentonGrey

Titan does mean you should listen when they advise, whether or not they are moderators.  They share similar roles. 

Be civil, folks, and take some time away if you need to cool off.  There's nothing worth getting angry about here.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Silver Shocker

I always seem to pop into these heated discussions right after folks have been told to chill out. Maybe that's for the best. I'd just like to say I don't agree with some of the sentiments expressed (I made my feelings on the EU clear earlier) But I do want to respect the rules of this forum and I do think being more polite and diplomatic would yield better results for everyone. I'm glad we've been pretty good at keeping things from getting too ugly.

Getting back to the Force Awakens, I quite enjoyed it the first time, and I still enjoyed it the second time. As I've said before, I don't have a problem TFA being derivative because 1) Star Wars was always derivative, and 2) It's a continuation. It's strictly a continuation to the movies and not the EU at large, but I think I'm ok with that too. To me it's no different than James Bond, or the various Superhero properties. If I can read and enjoy DC stories that are no longer in the primary canon, then the same is true for Star Wars. As for the newer tie-ins, from what I've seen they seem to be trying to make do the best they can. The Marvel Star Wars comics have boasted pretty high profile talent, and while I haven't read a lot, what I have read I liked (I haven't read the new novels, so I can't speak to the quality of those). Yeah, the lore will probably deteriorate with time.

On the topic of the Prequels, I saw them in junior high and high school, and I enjoyed them on a superficial level but was pretty aware they weren't as good as the originals (I remember saying the characters weren't as likable and that C-3PO was superior to Jar-Jar as a comic relief character). I explained them with a more critical eye when it became trendy to do so aka when a friend showed me the Red Letter Media reviews. Personally I take the Moviebob route: the Phantom Menance and the other two are technically imperfect action movies that blow it in the story and character department. No different than any number of other crummy blockbusters (some of which people enjoy with the right amount of camp or irony. Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, for example). I haven't actually watched any of them in at least 10 years, but I guarantee you if I do I won't hate them. If anything I might swing slightly the other direction just because I find the prequel hating a bit overblown (I'm trying to attack anyone here for their own opinions, I'm just saying that how I feel).

Honestly, though? I just really like Star Wars. I'm pretty easy to please in that regard. I've enjoyed the novels that most would put in the "bad" pile (as I've mentioned), I've enjoyed "bad" Star Wars video games, and I can enjoy the kind of fanservice that Rogue One, for example, is full of. I'm a fan so Disney wants to throw fanservice my way I'm probably not going to complain unless there's just something storywise I really dislike and so far I'm not there yet.

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Shogunn2517

What he said...

I'll add, as a student of history with a career in politics, that has also been the part of Star Wars that really got me. 

Moreover, the Empire's transition to the First Order would make more sense from a historical perspective.  And it make sense for an entire galaxy to have multiple governing bodies, New Republic and a First Order and possibly other non-allied states/systems.  The Resistance would be more like historically speaking Contras or Mujahideen from previous U.S. backed rebels or like U.S. backed Syrian rebels today.

Maybe the First Order and New Republic are in something of a Cold War and the the Republic is using the Resistance as a bit of a proxy war... that would make sense.

detourne_me

.... So Carrie Fisher has just passed away...
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not." - Master Yoda

Talavar

Quote from: detourne_me on December 27, 2016, 06:19:45 PM
.... So Carrie Fisher has just passed away...
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not." - Master Yoda

Very sad news.  When I heard about her heart attack, I had hoped, since she was only 60, that she would recover.  This has been a hell of a year.  I can't wait to see the back of it.

Shogunn2517

Quote from: detourne_me on December 27, 2016, 06:19:45 PM
.... So Carrie Fisher has just passed away...
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not." - Master Yoda

I just LITERALLY watched that scene on Facebook...  Some sage advice.