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Author Topic: DC animated original movies  (Read 5446 times)

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2016, 08:31:47 AM »
https://youtu.be/MbA8TKIeJ7g
Justice League Dark rate R for "some disturbing violence". Again,they push the rating for all the wrong reasons...
There are still the N52 costumes and some not-so-great voice acting,but good news is...Martian Manhunter,Hawkman and John Stewart.
And Destiny of The Endless.Thats a bit odd.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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Offline Red Fisser

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2017, 02:55:14 PM »
Have you seen the Batman and Harley Quinn yet? I saw it yesterday and liked it, although I ve heard a lot of bad comments about it in regards of its humor,its ending(though no spoilers here)and generally bad comparisons with other batman animated movies/the batman tas episodes,some compare it with the adam wests batman animations in regards of campy-ness,hence disrespectful of the batman tas.
 Imo these comparisons are wrong because this film is supposed to be a comedy,hence you cant expect it to follow the standard superhero adventure route, at least I didnt. I find it funny while paying the respect you d expect from bruce timm to the characters,and the btas universe in general,throwing lots of nods/easter eggs in the road for fans of btas to catch.
 The act is good from everyone including melissa rauch, whose sightly irritating voice is in line with the character,and  kevin conroy  gives as always topnotch batman portrayal without having to make him out of character funny cause of the comedic filter of the movie.In fact the total contrast of the seriousness in conroys batman is with the comedy elements is what makes it funny.
Its the same batman just in a comedic situation as conroy said himself. I think its humor has something of a different era of comedy, kinda gives me a bit of leslie nielsen feel to it.
 It has great fluid animation,some well animated choreographed battles unlike any other seen in the dcau/timmverse imo.
In regards of style it goes with the dark deco new batman adventures style,only taking the best of the style of batman tas like the batmobile, and a bit better character modeling regarding proportions,especially in poison ivy's case.
 Overall I think its a nice addition to the dcau/timmverse, had a fun watching it, and I d like to see what you guys think of it(also if anyone wants to see it he can pm me so I can share)

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2017, 03:56:08 PM »
If your asking me,no I havent.Come to think of it,Killing Joke was the last one I watched.That killed any good will for the rest.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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Offline Red Fisser

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2017, 04:36:08 PM »
I tried to watch killing joke when it came out but I ultimately stopped it. I will see it someday when I will find the strength ,though batman and harley quinn  has nothing to do with it,if you like batman tas/tnba(especially the more funny episodes) I recommend you should see it.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2017, 04:50:47 PM »
Im waiting for them to Rebirth their animated universe.Or figure out they have other characters then Batman.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2017, 09:32:15 PM »
Well unfortunately, I read a few years ago that DC felt Green Lantern's animated movies (First Flight and Emerald Knights, the latter of which I still haven't seen) and Wonder Woman (which I also haven't watched yet; it's on Canadian Netflix so I'll likely watch it at some point) didn't sell enough, so they opted to just make Justice League, Batman and now Teen Titans movies. It's been a long while since there's been a Superman animated movie but I'll get to that in a bit.

I'm sure I'll watch Batman and Harley Quinn sometime. It'll either be as a digital rental, when it airs on Canadian TV or when it arrives on Netflix, I'm not sure which. I'm not in a hurry at the moment to watch it.

On the topic of DC Animated movies, the trailer for Batman vs. Two Face came out recently.

Looks fun. I've always wondered what Shatner's Two Face would sound like, and it looks like Harvey and Two Face will have two different voices from Shatner, with Two-Face having a gruffer voice. Neat, wasn't quite expecting that. We also see the origin of Two Face in this iteration of Batman, which I also wasn't expecting. Hugo Strange and Harley Quinn (as Dr. Harleen Quinzel) are also in this. The movie will apparently be released Oct. 17.

In addition, DC recently announced some new upcoming animated movies. There's going to be a new Suicide Squad animated movie, and a new animated movie based on The Death of Superman and the Reign of the Superman. Apparently it will be a two-parter and we will indeed see Steel, Cyborg Superman and the Eradicator. That could be potentially interesting. I'll have to wait for more intel.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 09:46:43 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2017, 10:40:53 PM »
Emerald Knights was actually quite good.  It's a series of smaller stories rather than a typical movie, but I like it.  Also it adapts Mogo Doesn't Socialize, which is awesome.
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2017, 11:38:50 PM »
In regards to Batman and Harley Quinn (I haven't seen it yet), would it be appropriate for Children (In my case, a 7 yr old) to watch?

Offline Red Fisser

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2017, 03:00:27 AM »
I am not sure if I recommend it Cyber,for a 7year old, it has a pg13 some cursing and a ..middle..heres the official pg ratings reasons
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6556890/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg#certification
"intimate" action is also heavily implied(although not seen) but I feel obligated to mention that before thats implied theres that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xclKQL-SGMQ
and after thats implied theres this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrerfPyKjEE  after deciding on these I think you re ready to go.
Overall if you would allow your kid to see films like ghost busters or the naked gun(I did about that time) you should be fine with this one

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2017, 11:32:34 AM »
Emerald Knights was actually quite good.  It's a series of smaller stories rather than a typical movie, but I like it.  Also it adapts Mogo Doesn't Socialize, which is awesome.

Yeah, that's what I heard. I actually heard someone just a few days ago online say it was better than First Flight, and I really enjoyed First Flight. I'll have to watch that one day.
-"Wherever kindness is MOCKED--and CRUELTY is worn as a badge of honor--THERE you will find them. So WEAK inside,

that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
~Peregrine, describing Hydra, U.S. Avengers #8

Offline daglob

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2017, 02:53:39 PM »
I second the vote on Emerald Knights.

Offline Tomato

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2017, 04:50:23 PM »
Emerald Knights was ok. I personally preferred First Flight, mostly because I feel it's the way DC SHOULD have done the live action film... self contained, almost completely in space, etc. Plus a couple of the stories in Emerald Knights are ripped from the comics... which is normally a good thing, but I found myself not as invested in those because they were just condensed versions of stories I felt the comics presented better.

Plus... for all the hype Nathan Fillion had garnered for that role, this was his first real voice acting job... and it kinda shows. He's not BAD, but he suffers from a bit of what I call "celebrity-itis" where someone who's used to live action is put into a voice booth. They know how to act, but they don't have mastery of their vocal range in the same way someone who's done a ton of voice work does.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2017, 05:05:08 PM »
You shold have seen Richard Armitage mumble thru 90% of Castlevania.But who could blame him,really?
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Offline Red Fisser

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2017, 06:28:29 PM »
"He's not BAD, but he suffers from a bit of what I call "celebrity-itis" where someone who's used to live action is put into a voice booth. They know how to act, but they don't have mastery of their vocal range in the same way someone who's done a ton of voice work does." Thats exactly how I felt seeing Kit Haringhton in how to train your dragon, celebrity-itis!(perhaps shoud called celebr-itis? :cool: ) but I think thats not the case for melissa rauch in harleys role. Perhaps from all the exercise voice acting in big bang theory..

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #104 on: August 18, 2017, 11:40:44 PM »
Much appreciated on the the advice about Batman and Harley Quinn, Red. I Think I'll hold off on it until he's a bit more mature.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2017, 03:25:32 PM »
In a case of "I said a lot of stupid things in the past" I have to correct myself- upon re-watch,I hated Superman Vs Elite.
For example,All-Star Superman reinforces Superman's legend and shows why hes so great,this movie is just a mean spirited attack on a comic that sold better.You all heard how The Authority was revolutionary and influential,so Im not going to repeat all that.So somebody felt a need to pit Superman against some straw clones.And they are straw-men of the highest order.At one point Superman explains:
-You cant just go around bombing anyone you don't like.( incredibly obvious setup)
To which Manchester Black retorts:
-Why not,your government does that.
Really?You realize Superman doesn't create American foreign policy?How is he responsible there?  :huh:
And so they are defeated once Superman fakes going crazier,beats them up and proves they are wrong.You would think that him using their own medicine against the Elite would kinda proved their point*,but no,apparently this proves Superman is right.

*Im not all that sure what their point (other then being straw-clones of Authority) or plan.No way they could have taken over the world,right?This is the DCU after all.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2017, 04:18:35 PM »
Harry, I strongly disagree.  I quite like that movie, and I think it totally works.  The government comment is a classic example of moral equivalency.  I.E., 'they do it, so why don't we?'  It's an example of the fuzzy logic and bad philosophy that defines the position of the Elite, a moral relativism that contrasts very fittingly with Supes' objective based morality. 

The ending fits because Superman makes them see things from the perspective of the helpless; he turns the tables on them.  They are fine with the strong making their own rules because they are the strongest, but he shows them what it is like to be on the receiving end, what can happen when the stops are removed and someone more powerful than you feels that you need to be destroyed.  This, ideally, forces them to confront the reality of their self-serving ideology.  At the least, it teaches them not to screw with Superman, while still obeying his code.  This act also has a similar effect on the public, the mob that wanted violence, wanted blood.  The intensity of the object lesson embodied in the final battle illustrates to them that violence is always a negative, even when it is necessary, and unrestrained violence is a truly frightening thing. 

As always, the Man of Steel finds the tertium quid, the third way, solving problems and saving lives without actually descending to their level.

As for resemblances to The Authority, I can't really speak to that, as I don't really know those characters.  This movie was based on "What's so Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?" from Action Comics #775.  The comic and the movie that followed it are a response to what The Authority represents, the conflation of cynicism with maturity and clarity.  And the point they make is entirely valid, for whatever the quality of the latter may be.
God Bless
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2017, 04:55:02 PM »
Im aware of the source material,but I already said my piece there.There was also a short lived Justice League Elite,proving you cant have your cake and eat it too.   :rolleyes:

For example,in Kingdom Come,resident anti-heroes point out villains are a lot worse today then in Supermans time,and thats kind of a valid point.Elite is never that logical.Almost all of their questions could be answered with: Its not Supermans job.
So really,thats my problem here,its not about proping Supes,its about tearing down The Authority.Its statement isnt that Superman is great,its that Authority sucks.
Its Kelly taking a piss at a better selling comic.Nothing wrong with that outright,but it didnt need a movie.
Again,there is Kingdom Come,which handles the theme much better.Why not make a Kingdom Come movie?Just dont give it a Killing Joke treatment.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2017, 12:16:03 AM »
I think you're far too myopic in your view of this movie, my friend, limiting your appreciation.  You're letting an incident in its origin define it for you.  I don't have the associations with The Authority, so such concerns never entered in to my assessment.  Clearly there is more there than taking a shot at a more successful book, as an outsider to that context can still appreciate the film. 

In terms of the statement of the movie, there is indeed a good deal more than 'the Authority sucks.'  They establish Superman's ethical dilemma pretty effectively.  What do you do with destructive monsters like the Atomic Skull?  With the dictators and others who endanger innocents and who won't stop at a slap on the wrist?  Is what Superman does enough?  These are legitimate questions, aside from any outside context, and they do indeed impact on how the Man of Steel does his 'job.'  Is it his responsibility if he had the power to destroy a threat, chose not to, and it came back and killed people?  There is a school of thought that would answer 'yes.'  The scene with the Skull is particularly challenging on that front.  And the final confrontation reveals the flaws in that philosophy, and it also reveals the value of the traditional super-heroic ethos, as Superman finds the third way, restoring hope from fear.  This isn't as much about The Authority, specifically, as it is about comics at large and the concept of heroism, a focus on the true heroism, selfless, sacrificial heroism, rather than simple authoritarianism.  It's point is valid and valuable in our cynical age.

Comparing it to Kingdom Come is something of a non-sequitur, because they say rather different things.  Kingdom Come wrestles with concepts of heroism, but it provides no real answers, other than affirming the value of selfless sacrifice in CM's final gesture.  As for an adaptation of that film, I'd love it...but you could never get an art style that would do it justice, and, as you say, it could easily be handled terribly.  :P
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 01:23:27 AM by BentonGrey »
God Bless
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2017, 02:15:14 AM »
Most of what I would normally say, Benton has already said, and far better than I would.  I will only add that this does not come across as just a response to Authority, but to it and many modern ultra violent superhero comics in general.  It's an argument for why the old fashioned stuff like Superman still works, even in a modern era.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2017, 02:43:26 AM »
Thanks Cat!  :D  Well and succinctly said, yourself!
God Bless
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2017, 06:13:19 PM »
I'd like to weigh in!  :thumbup:

[EDIT: Whoa, I had a LOT of typos to fix.]

I'll start with a quick and easy one.

Emerald Knights was ok. I personally preferred First Flight, mostly because I feel it's the way DC SHOULD have done the live action film... self contained, almost completely in space, etc. Plus a couple of the stories in Emerald Knights are ripped from the comics... which is normally a good thing, but I found myself not as invested in those because they were just condensed versions of stories I felt the comics presented better.

That's not terribly surprising. I know it's an anthology and that's different to make feel narrative coherent and satisfying under the best of circumstances. There's also the fact that Green Lantern and the reason anyone (who's not still hung up about Kyle getting sidelined for Hal because Muh Silver Age Nostalgia, of course) gives a crap about Green Lantern these days is Geoff Johns and co have build up this sprawling ambitious mythology that's impressive in its scope and reach and draws heavily from the extended history of that property and a done-in-animated movie just isn't going to capture that in any meaningful way (see also: Death of Superman, which we'll be seeing DC take another shot at in the near future). First Flight actually, IMO did a rather job of it, strictly as a Sinestro story, but the extended mythology, while more satisfying to me, and I imagine, quite a few others than the Ryan Reynolds flick, largely amounted to "Hey, Boodika's in this, neat!" This is also an instance where the shocking violent deaths are to the story's benefit, since a big part of the shocking element of it is "Oh, so Sinestro's actually a monster. Ok, then". To do the modern Green Lantern mythos justice in an adaptation, I actually would 100% advocate for the Netflix treatment. You need more room to breathe than a done-in-one movie is going to allow, and Netflix would also lack the content restriction of a cartoon aimed at the kids. The Green Lantern animated series we did get, which I thought was actually pretty darn good when all was said and done, had to rework large chunks of the mythos (not the least of which the Red Lanterns) in order to have a story for the show, in the end it's pretty much its own thing.

Getting back to Emerald Nights. I of course won't know whether I like it or not until I see it, presumably when Netflix gets their act together and puts it up, but you and I have different takes on any number of things so I may have different take on that film as well.

This other comment by you, on the other hand, cannot go unchallenged.  :P

Quote
Plus... for all the hype Nathan Fillion had garnered for that role, this was his first real voice acting job... and it kinda shows. He's not BAD, but he suffers from a bit of what I call "celebrity-itis" where someone who's used to live action is put into a voice booth. They know how to act, but they don't have mastery of their vocal range in the same way someone who's done a ton of voice work does.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. Fillion had a notable role prior to that, which I brought up a little while ago on here, which was Vigilante in JLU and I thought did an excellent job voicing him, which was consistent with his later voice work (including Hal) and his live action body of work in general. These days Fillion does voice work so often (including in a Firefly MMO that's probably never going to get released, which is a crying shame because I really really want to play that or at least get to see/hear it) I feel he occupies that Mark Hamill/Alan Tudyk/Kelly Hu/Micheal Dorn/ect area where he IS a voice actor who also happens to be a live action actor too.

"He's not BAD, but he suffers from a bit of what I call "celebrity-itis" where someone who's used to live action is put into a voice booth. They know how to act, but they don't have mastery of their vocal range in the same way someone who's done a ton of voice work does." Thats exactly how I felt seeing Kit Haringhton in how to train your dragon, celebrity-itis!(perhaps shoud called celebr-itis? :cool: ) but I think thats not the case for melissa rauch in harleys role. Perhaps from all the exercise voice acting in big bang theory..

I didn't realize Kit was in that series. I can say however, that Kit was awesome in Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare as the villain. His character was shallow even for a Call of Duty campaign but he chewed the scenery nonetheless, enough so to make his fate at the end of the game fairly satisfying. Pretty good for one of the only genuinely heroic characters in Game of Thrones (well, one of the ones who wasn't killed off in earlier series, of course).

On the topic of Batman & Harley Quinn, I don't think I commented on it here (???) but I did actually watch that clip, and as Alfred says, I ain't touching that one, other than to say, how the heck does poor Nightwing keep finding himself in these situations? I known these days for having a nice backside but geez... So on the topic of the sexuality, I'll I personally wouldn't recommend that one to the young ones, since the sexuality is pretty damn overt even by DC Animation standards, but DC established somewhere around of the time of Flashpoint that most of these things aren't even remotely for kids anymore so wheteves. On the one hand, this is pretty on par with Assualt on Arkham, whose Harley was also pretty darn overtly sexual, but that was Arkham. I think a big part of the issue is this is, at least superficially if nothing else, based on Batman TAS, but written by modern day Bruce Timm, who, as we've established, apparently, sometime after doing Gods and Monsters, read one Frank Miller comic too many along with a hefty dose of way too much Bruce/Babs fanfic (well, not counting the ones he wrote himself, of course  :P).

It's actually pretty funny, considering that JL Gods and Monsters short. And, yeah, FYI, for those who didn't know, there were some web shorts of Justice League: Gods and Monsters, and in the first one, that version of Batman (who is a vampire and basically a serial killer, being voiced by Dexter and all) tracks down that universe's version of Harley Quinn, who is a brutal piss-take of basically every version of Harley since, well, around the time Arkham Asylum came out. Seriously, it's messed up. And he totally admitted that's what he was going for.

Back to Batman and Harley, I haven't seen the film myself, but everything I've seen and heard about it indicates that's it's an odd one. I'm not in a hurry to watch it but I know when I do, it's sure to be an interesting watch. I know it's got an extended fart joke in it, which sounds like just one of the most dreadful things anyone ever thought to put in these things but then again 1. modern day Bruce Timm and 2. I learned just the other day that Amanda Connor and Jimmy Palmiotti run of the Harley comic featured similar toilet humor, which doesn't particularly surprise me, so at least there's precedence for it. I've also heard the ending is just the biggest middle finger to the audience but I've have to see it for myself to see how it plays. I will say, that it features a surprise cameo by Bruce Timm himself as a well-established DC character you really wouldn't expect to see in this particular project (I'm not going to spoil who) that's full of win and seriously one of the funniest stinky things I've EVER seen put in any DC project (and considering the character in question, that's saying a LOT).
I know a lot of people online absolutely detested the film to no end, which amuses me, and I do understand why, and yaknow, I think we're at the point where Bruce flippin' Timm of all people gets to be listed in the "Fallen Creator" Tvtropes page along with Valve, Bethesda and whoever the hell else just up and went "Oh you think you can flush away all the good will you generated over the years? Hold my beer."

On the topic of Rauch herself, I was actually fairly impressed with her performance for the character based on that clip. it works. When I heard she was cast, and before I saw the clip, I was rolling my eyes along with everyone else. It was a stunt casting through and through and I a lot of other people thought it killed the magic. If Sorkin actually came back to role (presumably because DC/WB gave her a not-insignificant amount of money to do so) I feel that actually would have elevated the project. Lester as Nightwing on the other hand, I don't agree with the people who say he's forgotten how to play the character (he sounded about right in the clip I saw), it's more that I think he was always more suited as Dick as Robin and pretty all of the later takes on Nightwing (Teen Titans Go Robin not withstanding of course) tended to do a little deeper voiced and little more gruff.

Incidentally, I actually had a much more long-winded passage about Harley Quinn written and I cut it out because really getting into tangent territory and this post is long enough as it is. I saved it though, just in case I get a good opportunity to use it again.
The long and short of is that all things considered, Harley's actually had a pretty awesome history of performances beyond Batman TAS's Arleen Sorkin. Good thing too, considering the character blew up so much after the first Arkham game.

You shold have seen Richard Armitage mumble thru 90% of Castlevania.But who could blame him,really?

While you and I have discussed Castlevania elsewhere, I could certainly say more on the topic (that warrants its own thread though; I wouldn't want to veer this one too off-topic) so sticking to the voice acting I thought Armitage was fine for the version of the character he was given. Though to be fair, IMO he was vastly eclipsed by James Callis (aka Gaius Frakkin Baltar) as the surprising accurate version of Alucard stealing the show for his 10 minutes of screentime. Part of that was that he really didn't sound like Gaius Baltar so I was impressed by that.

Going back to DC: as HT pointed out much earlier in this thread, the stunt casting is a tried and true tradition in DC animation. I'm glad it happens as that variety does keep thins fresh and a lot of actors have gotten to pretty much make the jump to full-on voice actor because someone (Andrea Romano, naturally) had the idea they could play a DC superhero character. The issue I have with the movies since, JL War or so, is the stunt casting prior to that, was, I feel, a lot more inspired previously. Now a lot of it is just stunt casting for the sake of stunt casting. Was Batman Assault on Arkham any better because Matthew Gray Gubler voiced Riddler instead of the Arkham series' Wally Wingert. Did some dullard WB executive honestly think some dude was more likely to buy Assualt on Arkham because a pre-Damien Dark Neal McDonaugh voiced Deadshot instead of Chris Cox (who did a great job voicing another snarky marksman, Hawkeye)?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 06:43:00 PM by Silver Shocker »
-"Wherever kindness is MOCKED--and CRUELTY is worn as a badge of honor--THERE you will find them. So WEAK inside,

that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
~Peregrine, describing Hydra, U.S. Avengers #8

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2017, 06:14:01 PM »
Finally, on the topic of Superman vs. the Elite:

In a case of "I said a lot of stupid things in the past" I have to correct myself- upon re-watch,I hated Superman Vs Elite.
For example,All-Star Superman reinforces Superman's legend and shows why hes so great,this movie is just a mean spirited attack on a comic that sold better.You all heard how The Authority was revolutionary and influential,so Im not going to repeat all that.So somebody felt a need to pit Superman against some straw clones.And they are straw-men of the highest order.


Well, I've also watched the movie twice now, and I enjoyed it both times, but it has a lot to do, for me with adjusting expectations and also reexamine things when re watching it (which you clearly did).

The thing about Elite is I always found the concept fascinating well before the film was even announced. The thing is though, Unlike quite a few of these that were direct adaptions where the source material was too long, Elite (in its comic form as "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice And the American Way?", a cumbersome title if ever there was one) was more like the Killing Joke in it was actually a done-in-one story. Initially at least. But it was an extra long issue of the series, so there actually was a far amount of material the movie had to draw from, and as I understand it, simplify. I've not read the comic myself, but I'd like to one day, and the thing is, I heavily suspect the story actually works a little better in the comic, but the thing about the movie it's a pretty fundamentally interesting story idea but watching it the first I felt like it didn't go far enough to really illustrate what it was trying to say.

Arguably Grant Morrison did a better job with that one line about jetpack gorillas in his JLA Classified, which was of course in reference to Morrison's own Ultra Marine Corp.

Touching on "a comic that sold better". So they wanted to take a down it notch, take a shot at the new hotness, the biggest game in town.

Now, I'm going to take a moment and play devil's advocate for just a sec. Marvel and DC have pulled this particular game a LOT. Squadron Sinister/Supreme, Global Guardians, Lord Havoc and the Exetremist. Hell, comic book Harley Quinn recently did a blatant riff on Dead Pool ("Red Tool") and a few years before that Joe Kelly wrote Batman/Superman and had Wade Wilson himself appear as -naturally- an alternate reality Slade Wilson. It is another time honored tradition, and it's also not the first time the writers took a more cynical look at their stand ins. The Mark Gruenwald Squadron Supreme was basically Justice Lords, Injustice, Stormwatch/Authority, and the Elite before any of them (and for years I thought that was what Watchmen was until I actually read it). Hell, that's not even the last time DC ripped off Authority! A few years later they did the exact same thing with the Ultimates, which was basically "The Authority but this time they're the Avengers" (same artist too)

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At one point Superman explains:
-You cant just go around bombing anyone you don't like.( incredibly obvious setup)
To which Manchester Black retorts:
-Why not,your government does that.
Really?You realize Superman doesn't create American foreign policy?How is he responsible there?  :huh:

Well, I think it was less calling Superman out on personal hypocrisy (though Supes, unlike the Elite, does indeed "Respect the Authority") and more just justifying it for themselves because Supes calls them out on it.

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And so they are defeated once Superman fakes going crazier,beats them up and proves they are wrong.You would think that him using their own medicine against the Elite would kinda proved their point*,but no,apparently this proves Superman is right.

Your assessment reminds me of a certain infamous episode of Clone Wars that raised a rock solid point (that the show repeatedly reinforced in later storylines, whether intentionally or not) that basically ended with "the good guys win because they have to because they're the good guys" not because it was the natural progression point but because the status quo had to be maintained, and as Channel Awesome reviewers say "Makes it easy!" Some at on Tvtropes summed it up as:

Clone Trooper: Don't Clone Troopers have rights too? Isn't morally wrong to treat us as disposable people?
Jedi: No. [The End]

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*Im not all that sure what their point (other then being straw-clones of Authority) or plan.No way they could have taken over the world,right?This is the DCU after all.

So, once again, this is why I'm curious about the comic version. If it's the comic, that it goes without saying it's the DCU and they'd have to play off that in some meaningful way in order for the story to work (or it's just another one of the depressingly large number of stories from the late 20 or so years that have massive plot holes because the writers just couldn't find a way to make it work. Say, Grant how often is the Fantastic Four out of town?). In that, that hilarious cameo in the Batman and Harley Quinn movie that I mentioned above? Part of that gag is making fun of that trope.

Now here's the rub. Superman vs. the Elite, the movie, is, as near as we can tell, a self contained story. Lois and Clarke's relationship is based on that of the comic source without regard for one or more versions of the animated Supes, and as far as we know, Supes is the only Superhero in that whole iteration with the exception of whoever appears or is overtly mentioned. Think about it. In the Christopher Reeve Superman movies, Superman's the only hero. That's how a movie version like this operates. One of the changes for Batman: Under The Red Hood from the comic version was it simplified things and one of the ways it did that was by downplaying the references to the wider DC Universe. The cadre of villains is replaced by a generic cyborg assassin group and during the big fight with Amazo in the beginning, Nightwing pointing that Amazo is using Superman's heat vision was changed to Nightwing saying he's using lasers. That particular actually annoyed some fans of the comic version. It's very much a mentality of "if we don't need the extended continuity to be in there, we'll leave it out so the audience will be less confused." And also, you know, 90 minute movie.

Watching it the first time with my friend, our main criticism was Manchester Black, who for the record I generally think is a pretty rad character, "didn't do enough bad stuff" to warrant a takedown. #ManchesterBlackDidNothingWrong. Like you and Benton, my buddy had a different on human morality as applied to fictional superhero stories compared to my own, and sure enough, when I rewatched the thing by myself, I went "Oh yeah, he totally killed some folks." And it's like, ok, he murdered the ruler of a foreign nation, but apparently had no regard for how that would actually make the country's situation actually improve. That level of short-sightedness. And then there's Atomic Skull. Yes, Skull was a dangerous, ruthless monster, because the story needed him to be. Someone's family member died, which sucked, and is a crappy that does happen, and then it's just "do it'. and he's dead and that's it. And it's like "Dude, that's what happen. Event Superman actually doesn't save everyone". Superman is sometimes written to be incredibly naive to the point of stupidity, but he knows that people are going to die and he's going to do the best he can to prevent that.

It's reminds me of two different things.

1. JMS's story where Supes gets guilt tripped by someone and goes on a trip across America. Yep, that one. The one Linkara reviewed. In that story Superman is written as incredibly stupid, short-sighted and naive not becasue it's believable and in character, but because he needs to be for that story to play out the way it did. One woman being selfish (in grief) and blaming Superman when Superman probably saved, you know, however many, during that story, and he's so guilt stricken he does this whole thing, and he has deal with a neighborhood with gangs in it and he has an incredibly stupid "solution" to the problem. He's tasked with the problem of talking down a grief-stricken jumper (a concept that, as pretty much everyone pointed out, Morrison, along with Frank Quitely on art,  handled WAY better with way fewer dialogue in All-Star Superman) and his best solution is incredibly poor weak ponderous philosophy. It made him seem incredibly out of touch. When some cop asked if Supes would let a jumper jump, he dodges the question and leaves, instead of, oh I don't know, convincing someone in a moment of grief and loss to not throw their life away (and again, as someone who HAS experience such things, I do find that offensive). The sad thing is, JMS DID have interesting ideas, referencing famous people who spent their life promoting peace who died doing that (such as John Lennon) but it wasn't integrated well into the story or into whatever point Supes (and JMS) was trying to make. When a woman who lost her job and mother tells him life is unfair, Supes simply says that life is neither fair nor unfair. Yaknow, ignoring that that's the wrong answer to give to a jumper, and that, yeah, life CAN be unfair, SOME of the time, if you can't count on Superman to be encouraging in a moment when it's important, who exactly can you count on for that?

2. The Walking Dead. It's got some "interesting" takes on human morality, but one I'll always remember (and a series low point for me personally in the tv show) also involved a character being told to "do it" during a moment where the story just went "oh ok, so he did a bad thing and one person died so now it's ok to kill him". I didn't like it in that either. Oddly enough that was adapted from the comic, but the show IMO handled it a LOT worse for a few different reasons.

Benton:

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In terms of the statement of the movie, there is indeed a good deal more than 'the Authority sucks.'

While that may be true, that familiarity with what's being directly referenced, critiqued, and rejected is a big part of it. As French film critic Jean-Luc Godard said "In order to criticize a movie, you have to make another movie". And Superman vs. the Elite, along with its comic counterpart, is exactly that second movie. When you're familiar with that "first movie", that's a pretty big factor. I've referenced this repeatedly in my posts in the Marvel Thread. Whether it's Peter David directly referencing fan disprovable of the new superhero costume and working it into the story, an X-Men comic having an extended sequence where the characters defended the entire superhero comic industry while giving their critics the proverbial middle finger, any of those godawful take that moments at various ideological opponents me and HT went over, every single solidarity "take that" moment at the fans in Amazing Spider-Man since the first page of Brand New Day, and Mark Waid's recent issue of Avengers, a brilliant tie-in to Secret Empire where he rejected the whole damn story and every thing he hates about anti-heroes (and I really hope people realized that's what he was doing), which I'll get to in a second cuz I've need an excuse to talk about that one. There's always that added layer that is 100% intentional and 100% the point. Well, in the case of Elite, 50% the point since the other half is reminding people why Superman is a great, enduring character.

HT again:

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For example,in Kingdom Come,resident anti-heroes point out villains are a lot worse today then in Supermans time,and thats kind of a valid point.Elite is never that logical.Almost all of their questions could be answered with: Its not Supermans job.

That's the key element, that's sure KC did better and Elite did, IMO, not as well as it could have. You need to illustrate that "the bad guys are so bad we need to kill him". Screw you, it didn't happen. Heck, reminds me of a certain infamous scene from Man of Steel. One that also and (as many people have pointed out, failed) to sell. Those that defend it buy into that idea that it was necessary. I don't, Mark Waid (writer of Kingdom Come and that aforementioned Avengers issue) yelled at the movie screen in the threatre, and I seem to recall a lot of people on this forum didn't dig it. And again, screw you movie, it didn't happen. Super-speed, flight, Superman's not a moron. It's not that hard. When the writers are as smart as the fans, we give the credit they're due.

But again, let's play that game. The villain WILL kill those civilians. Ok then, the bad guy who does bad things does one more bad thing, and the good guy does the good guy thing and throws him in jail (or the phantom zone). That's how it works.
BT dubs, just I know some people aren't aware of this, Superman and Lois DO NOT KILL Ursa, Non and Zod in Superman II. There's a deleted scene where the three villains, depowered, are carted off to jail (with Luthor, of course) by the "artic police" (cuz Fortress of Solitude) I know the final of the film doesn't make this remotely clear, but the filmakers did not intend Superman II to be another one of those super hero movies where Batman kills the villain because movie. Keep that in your pocket the next time someone brings that up in order to knock down a beloved classic in their quest to prop up a movie that deliberately rejected what Superman's supposed to represent.


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Why not make a Kingdom Come movie?Just dont give it a Killing Joke treatment.
It's a shame, though it's it? Killing Joke was like the Silent Hill HD Collection of DC Animated movies. It had one job. The easiest job in the world. Faithfully recreate the definitive Batman vs. the Joker story that is referenced more than other. And they ALMOST did it. If that prologue (and that one extra scene, you know the one) wasn't there (or in the case of the former, was a better version of itself) I don't think people wouldn't consider it the trainwreck it is remembered as. The movie would be the comic and its merits would be that, for good or ill. Noone would seriously argue that the animation was so poor that it ruined the whole movie for them. Noone (other than Honest Trailers) would suggest Hamill phoned it for the passion project he committed to getting made. And the musical number and the fight scene with the circus freaks would a minor alteration that actually worked fine for the movie adaptation of that fairly short story.

The sad thing is 1. I called the whole damn movie in advance. They made it longer because the story was too short and didn't have enough action 2. They added in more Batgirl because Babs was the thing people took issue with to begin with.
But they managed to make it worse. And again, this would have been the EASIEST thing in the world to fix. Make the prologue about Batgirl teaming up with Batman to fight the Joker Just a random Joker caper. Make it the Laughing Fish or the boner one or something, just with Batgirl. Joker pulls a "I'll fix you yet Batman, I'll ruin everyone you'll love", Batman brushes it off like "cool story bro". Jim Gordon's there as they cart Joker away and he's just like "One of these days, man, one of these days." and there you go. An actual story that connects in a meaningful way.

Now, I'd love to think Bruce Timm and Co learned their lesson, but considering Batman and Harley Quinn, maybe not.

Benton:

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Comparing it to Kingdom Come is something of a non-sequitur, because they say rather different things.  Kingdom Come wrestles with concepts of heroism, but it provides no real answers, other than affirming the value of selfless sacrifice in CM's final gesture.  As for an adaptation of that film, I'd love it...but you could never get an art style that would do it justice, and, as you say, it could easily be handled terribly.

Considering DKR came up with a pretty effect compromise/middle ground (or in my opinion, and the opinion of at least some others, an active improvement) They could do something, and if nothing else, the story would presumably shine through. Funny thing though, and I know you're going to hate me for this Benton, but I've actually never read KC and a big reason why I actually don't Alex Ross. As a cover artist, or a costume designer, he's fine, but as an interior artist. Everything with him is so posed and heavily referenced and in that painted, photo realistic thank-goodness-we-have-decent-costumes-or-this-would-look-really-stupid art style, and it's not my bag baby. I'm not even going to front. If DC put a remake today with the exact same script and story but the art done by someone I really enjoy, like, oh say, Mike Del Mundo, I'd seriously pick that bad boy up no question. Because I loves me some Mark Waid, and that's basically THE Mark Waid story. Speaking of....

The thing about Mark Waid is he HATES anti-heroes. Hates hates hates. He hates a Superman who kills, he actually hates Deadpool, and he'd says he had no interest in writing him these days (ironic, considering he wrote one of the formative Deadpool minis that introduced the memorable Wade/Siryn ship, which I dubbed "WaidShipping"). But the key is that it's a kind of morality he's against.

So guess what he did when he was tasked with a Secret Empire tie-in in his Avengers book, starring the Evil Avengers (yes, another one). he spent the ENTIRE issue telling you how much they suck! No seriously, the whole damn issue. Doc Ock's an insufferable jacka$$ (no change there), Deadpool's incredibly annoying, not a big stretch there, though Waid does have him take a dig at Batman V. Superman, because of course. Taskmaster and Blank Ant are a bunch of opportunistic thugs, evil Scarlet Witch is a r@pist, and they're not fooling around on that one, they outright say it. Comic Marvel NEVER does that these days. And in the end Tasky and Black Ant find the alien horde they're sent to kill and it turns out the aliens are peaceful and they want to help humanity and Earth become a paradise and they're just like "Kay, but we're bad guys so we're going to kill you anyway" and they do it and they all just walk away like "Good job team, aren't we just a bunch of bada$$es". The final panel might as well have been Waid dropping the mic and being like "Yeah, that @#$% just happened." It was bloody brilliant! I'm not fronting, it was one of the most brilliant comics I've ever read. I seriously think Waid should get an Eisner for it (considering some of the utter garbage that got nominated for an Eisner). It really was that damn good.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 06:44:33 PM by Silver Shocker »
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that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2017, 06:59:07 PM »
Doesnt Lois name-drop Martian Manhunter at one point?Or I got DC movies mixed up?
Okay,hated might have been a strong word.Lets go with disliked.Its still a lot better then most N52 animated movies.
No point in repeating everything about KJ.Oddly enough,I prefered the movie version of DKR.Same goes for Year One.Apparently,Miller was writing for a movie even back then. :)
Oh,and Batman didnt kill anyone in DKR,despite what Snyder claims.
So The Authority.Funny thing,that I mentioned here before,is a major  Seinfield is Unfunny effect there.After years of everyone aping it,Authority itself looks like a slow era of Avengers.
Loebs Maximums were his comment on Ultimates (that will become ironic later),but they owned their existance to Authority,so its all a circle.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2017, 07:15:31 PM »
Again,nothing wrong with taking a shot at another comic,but there were probably better ways then just introducing a bunch of stand-in strawmen and having Superman beat them up.His going crazy moment is kinda funny when you realize hes voiced by Sephiroth.Also,MB forgot he can press Supermans arteries and Coldcast forgot he has that EMP for organics in the final battle.

Or to boil it down,its not a bad moral,but it could have been handled better.

Back to then and now,this movie came out in 2012.DC in 2012.Stormwatch was going strong and Midnighter was kicking blood-vomiting goats around.
I used KC as an example of a similar(if not the same) type of story that did it better.I don't believe there is a finite number of movies that could be made,but resources could have been better spent here.Thou seeing everything that came after it,they probably wouldn't be.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 07:08:35 AM by HarryTrotter »
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #115 on: September 21, 2017, 12:10:46 AM »
The hilarious thing I see in all of this is that by 2012 DC owned Image which means they also owned Authority and Stormwatch...so pissing on the Authority would've been them pissing on their own brand...so it's not about bad mouthing the Authority. If they wanted to do that then they could've just used the Authority.
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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #116 on: September 21, 2017, 12:17:53 AM »
The hilarious thing I see in all of this is that by 2012 DC owned Image which means they also owned Authority and Stormwatch...so pissing on the Authority would've been them pissing on their own brand...so it's not about bad mouthing the Authority. If they wanted to do that then they could've just used the Authority.

Um, I hate to tell you this, but DC doesn't own Image. Image is still around, though they're more of an indie company these days. That said, DC does own Wildstorm, which has the actual rights to the Authority and Stormwatch and the like. Just a FYI.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC animated original movies
« Reply #117 on: September 21, 2017, 07:13:40 AM »
I assume that was a mistake,and he meant Wildstorm.
Its all movie pitches at Image these days,btw.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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