Please login or register.

Login with email, password and session length
 

News:

Happy Holidays!


Author Topic: Cosmic characters resistances?  (Read 886 times)

Offline Jimaras8

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 833
Cosmic characters resistances?
« on: February 02, 2015, 10:30:11 AM »
I would really like to hear how you make your cosmic characters defenses attribute and stats-wise. See i am fairly certain my heavy hitters like Hyperion and Thor are in a good level where they dish hits for a respectable amount of time and the match is even. But have you made characters like Carol Danvers Captain Marvel, Nova, Captain Britain or Blue Marvel? I usually go with Solid Skeleton or Physical R not at the same time susually. For example i am not sure if Nova is durable enough for PR or i should go with Solid skeleton and maybe some invulnerable usually 5.

For comparison characters like Sentry, Thor or Gladiator have physical resistance and invulnerable since they are physical monsters. However i am not sure if the lower level cosmic champions are that durable.

Offline spydermann93

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4079
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 09:09:03 PM »
Most of my tougher characters are Concrete with some sort of invulnerability or passive defense.

I like Concrete more than Physical Resistance since it also provides an inherent resistance to stuns and that saves some room for other attributes that I might want.

Also, for Blue Marvel, think of him built like Superman, just with some energy blasts. He's really hard to put down (he stood up to Sentry quite well a number of times), so at the very least, I'd put him around the same level as Sentry in terms of durability and striking power.

Offline BentonGrey

  • Titans
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 15275
    • The Greylands
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 04:55:48 AM »
My design philosophy, as I've mentioned in the past, has shifted to focus more and more on Physical Resistance and invulnerability to mimic high-level characters.  I think I've done this largely because I have really come to dislike the resistance system in FF2.  I much prefer the resistances in FF1, and it bothers me that it is so difficult to get the right mix to really "feel" right, so I often just sidestep the problem.  For example, creating Iron Man for my MA mod just about drove me nuts because I REALLY wanted him to be metal material type, but that made him absolutely terrible against anyone with an electrical attack, which just didn't seem accurate.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out my DC voicepacks at my yahoo group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bentongrey
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bentongrey2

Offline Jimaras8

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 833
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 08:22:51 AM »
Spyder I find your approach interesting, however i have noticed that the stone and concrete material are durable but not as durable as i would like. For example i tested me Thanos with PR and Inv 20 on one match and stone material with Inv 20 in the other removing PR. I put him against 7 Avengers and while he was holding his own with the stone material he fell too easy for Thanos if you know what i mean. If i combine stone or concrete with PR and inv 20 he becomes TOO durable. So the middle ground for me is what Benton has been using. That said i find your method interesting and i would try it with some heavu hitters.

Benton I think you IM build in the MA is good. Not too resilient yet can hold his own against some big guns. I think you have striken the balance both with him and War Machine. I understand your problem since Tony would surely made modifications to block or absorb  electrical attacks or magnetism. Unfortunately it can't be done so literally in  :ffvstr: but hey it is still more complex than any other rpg i have played  :D.

So , i will get right on my point. THe biggest headache for me is Nova. How would you make his resistances? I currently have him at his Prime state with full Nova Force with att: air superiority, cosmic aware, PR, HUman Rocket 10 and strange visitor. His passive is pretty much occassional on melee and ranged in most forms of damage except acid, mental, mystical.

Offline hoss20

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1458
  • A goal without a plan is just a dream.
    • Force of Paradox
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 11:09:21 AM »
When you tried the Stone material with Inv 20, did you add the Strange Visitor attribute? Stone does not give any resistance to Acid or Energy, in regard to physical damage. Concrete, on the other hand offers resistance to all physical damage except for Energy, so Strange Visitor would need to be added if using the Concrete material as well. Considering the vast array of powers the Avengers have, I imagine that you had quite a few with Energy powers. Therefore, if your Thanos didn't have resistance to Energy, then that could explain the difference between your Stone material vs Physical Resistance test.

Spydermann also makes a good point regarding the resistance to Stun that having a resistant material type offers. Because Physical Resistance and Invulnerability do not offer any resistance to Stun, you could potentially have someone like the Black Widow stunning Thanos.

Of course, we're just trying to explain why we do things our way and you need to be happy with your hero files. They are yours, after all.  :D

Also, have you checked out the page on Alex's site where he has his Material Reference Chart showing the resistances for each material type? It's very handy when trying to get the right fit for hero files and figuring out the material that would suit your hero the best. Here's the link: http://www.alexff.com/faq.php#26._Materials_&_Resistances_Chart

Offline Jimaras8

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 833
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2015, 11:51:29 AM »
Quote
Of course, we're just trying to explain why we do things our way and you need to be happy with your hero files. They are yours, after all.  :D

No need to worry Hoss this is why i made the topic in the first place. Exchange of ideas  :D. The fact is that i don't know how to make him concrete since the material isn't in the in game menu and this is where i make me hero files. I am guessing you are using EZhero to select concrete am i right? Which version do you use? Anyway i am sidetracking, the way i percieved iit is that stone and concrete are great materials for heavy hitters yet they offer somehow less reistance to some guys that are really tough such as Thanos or Apocalypse. And it's not the energy based attacks, Thor's hits pummeled Thanos's health quicker. He wasn't squirrel girl yet the Mad Titan should be able to dish Odinson's strikes  :cool:. Not that i am talking about the amount of damage dealt not about passive defense because he still blocked some hits completely.

Is there a way to psot the data of the hero file here as i have seen users do? I think it would give you a better understanding.

Offline hoss20

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1458
  • A goal without a plan is just a dream.
    • Force of Paradox
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2015, 02:58:07 PM »
I'm currently using Alex's EZHero 3.5. I believe he has 3.4 available on his site. I only have 3.5 as he gave me the privilege to help in testing. The option to assign Concrete, Air, and Cloth materials is available in 3.4.

One thing you might want to do, if you haven't already, is run your tests multiple times with Stone/Concrete and Inv20 and then with Passive Resistance and Inv20. You just want to make sure that what you are seeing is indicative of what you think is occurring. I only say this because I just ran a little test of my own with one hero having the Concrete material and the other having Passive Resistance. My test resulted in the total damage taken for the same number of strikes being just about the same for each hero. The PR hero actually took a little more.

Being Resistant to a damage type results in a 50% reduction in damage which is what having Physical Resistance does (for physical damage). So, over time, your results for either a resistant material type or Physical Resistance should be pretty close, other than the reduction in Stun % for the resistant material type. This is the main reason why I might argue that you may have jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

There is also a randomness built into the damage inflicted, as well as the amount of times a Passive Defense might activate. It could very well be that, for your test, Stone Thanos happened to take more damage per blow along with his Passive Defense not activating as frequently as it did for PR Thanos. Just the Passive Defense factor alone could result in one of your Thanos' taking more damage than the other.

I hope that I'm helping you better understand how the game mechanics work and, as a result, help you with building hero files. I don't want to come across as being critical. That's not my intent at all. There are a lot of things that the game documentation doesn't cover at all and it's taken years reading posts here on Freedom Reborn, by people much more knowledgeable than I, for me to even learn enough to try to help other people out.

Offline spydermann93

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4079
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2015, 07:30:56 PM »
Oh, one more thing I like about natural resistances over physical resistance and high invulnerability attributes:

I don't like how if the blow is enough to ko the hero or villain, the attack will bypass PR and Invulnerability. I know it's a limitation of the game's scripting mechanic, but I'm nit-picky to the point where it sometimes bothers me. I still use Physical Resistance from time to time, but I prefer Concrete+Strange Visitor. It makes my characters more durable in the long run.

For example, say Hero X has 20 health left and somebody hits him for a 21 point attack that he's resistant to. With Concrete, the 21 would be reduced to 10, so the hero would survive the attack. With Physical Resistance, the hero would be KO'd before the attribute would make the necessary corrections.

Like Hoss, I've tested hero build out against each other, one being Concrete + Strange Visitor vs Physical Resistance. In my tests, I've found Physical Resistance characters receiving slightly more damage than the Concrete ones after about 10 or so trials, despite them technically being the same on paper.

But again, this is all just personal preference. Like I said before, I really enjoy your hero files, so clearly I don't have a problem with how you're building them :P

Is there a way to psot the data of the hero file here as i have seen users do? I think it would give you a better understanding.

Using Alex's EZHero tool, there's an option called "Send to Text..." in the File Menu. That will give you reports just like what other members have posted, before :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 07:36:09 PM by spydermann93 »

Offline Jimaras8

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 833
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2015, 07:36:39 PM »
Neither of you should be worried of being critical. In no way you come out as such. In fact you only help me understand the game better. From the points Hoss made i need to do the Thanos test again and change just the PR attr with concrete so i know the source of the outcome. Same team having Thor, Vision, Iron Man, Cap and Ms Marvel. See how it goes. So if i just run my hero files though EZ again and change the material in some of them do i need to run the FFX CC again so some attributes can work? You know like when you delete a power and you need to recreate the AI because otherwise the system won't recognize the hero. I am saying this because i will need to run many heroes in the CC if that's the case.

Oh, one other thing. Do you put your passive defenses on your heavy hitters on rare or occassional usually?

Offline spydermann93

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 4079
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2015, 07:44:06 PM »
So if i just run my hero files though EZ again and change the material in some of them do i need to run the FFX CC again so some attributes can work? You know like when you delete a power and you need to recreate the AI because otherwise the system won't recognize the hero. I am saying this because i will need to run many heroes in the CC if that's the case.

Any time I make changes to a hero file, I run them through the FFXControlCentre again, just to be safe. And unless you modify any of the character's powers, you won't need to run them through the AI generator, again.

Oh, one other thing. Do you put your passive defenses on your heavy hitters on rare or occassional usually?

Mostly its just a 'Rare' or 'Occassional' PD, yes. I rarely go above those, except for a few cases. The only times when I would ever go higher is when I see a character rarely be affected by specific types of attacks, like how Captain America ALWAYS seems to block projectiles, now matter how many there are.

I used to have a high Passive Defense for the Flash so that he could dodge projectiles Very Frequently, but I opted to just make an attribute that raised his Agility to 12, or something like that :P

Offline BentonGrey

  • Titans
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 15275
    • The Greylands
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 03:47:22 AM »
Benton I think you IM build in the MA is good. Not too resilient yet can hold his own against some big guns. I think you have striken the balance both with him and War Machine. I understand your problem since Tony would surely made modifications to block or absorb  electrical attacks or magnetism. Unfortunately it can't be done so literally in  :ffvstr: but hey it is still more complex than any other rpg i have played  :D.
Thanks Jim!  Yeah, no doubt about it, FF is the greatest superhero game, even with its faults.

So , i will get right on my point. THe biggest headache for me is Nova. How would you make his resistances? I currently have him at his Prime state with full Nova Force with att: air superiority, cosmic aware, PR, HUman Rocket 10 and strange visitor. His passive is pretty much occassional on melee and ranged in most forms of damage except acid, mental, mystical.

I'm afraid I don't know Nova enough to really be of much help here.  I'm only familiar with his early appearances, so what little I know doesn't apply.

As to the resistance vs. PR philosophy, I do sometimes use resistances + low levels of invulnerability for characters who have clear types of armor, like Colossus and Thing.  It's difficult to balance them against the PR designs, but I think it adds some nice variety.  I need to start using Concrete type more, but I usually build my characters in game, so I don't go to the Hero Tool until after the fact.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out my DC voicepacks at my yahoo group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bentongrey
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bentongrey2

Offline Jimaras8

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 833
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 08:19:31 AM »
Quote
but I usually build my characters in game, so I don't go to the Hero Tool until after the fact
I am in the same boat Benton. I just love making the heroes in-game it has an old-school sense at it. I guess if i want to free up some attr slots i will use concrete since it blocks everything but energy. Sound really useful. Benton i think you were thinking of maing a Nova campaign for his early adventures am i right? Did you scrap that?


Offline BentonGrey

  • Titans
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 15275
    • The Greylands
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 02:36:35 PM »
Jim, I haven't scrapped the idea, per se, but I don't know if it will be in the next volume or not.  Either way, though I like the character, I'm not super familiar with him, so I won't have as well designed a build for him as I did for the characters I've created so far, you know?
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out my DC voicepacks at my yahoo group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bentongrey
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bentongrey2

Offline Shogunn2517

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1376
  • He's Got Your Hero Right Here
Re: Cosmic characters resistances?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2015, 05:32:36 PM »
I know I'm a little late to this, but this is probably the most interesting discussion about the game, a game where we all can make it however we want it.  And that all depends on how you want to play it.  I like to play my game on the high impossible end.  In comparison to other in-game characters, my herofiles reflect what I think they would be in comics.  IE, it would be virtually impossible for the 1960s Freedom Force be able to hold a candle to the Silver Surfer and in the game, it reflects that.

That said, I typically lean to the side of not using material types and physical resistances unless they are for specific characters like Thing or Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Colossus, Human Torch, Iceman, etc.  And Benton, like you, I understand your difficulties with Iron Man, but I've often used a Passive Defense Energy Absorption to negate(actually to supplement) the weaknesses for Metal material types.

In regard to some of the cosmic characters, because many of them have energy based powers, I try to squeeze in a Strange Visitor attribute to put them on a level playing field... well, now that I think about it, I will now.  Outside of that, I try to keep them true to form.  Typically they're more powerful than normal humans whether it's a higher strength level or energy level or speed that sets them apart.  But because of the nature of the character, they're typically way more powerful than normal human characters.  For instance, if I had Ronan against a squad of police officers built in from the game, he'd slaughter them.  If I put Morg or Thanos against a Platoon of soldiers from the game, it might last two minutes if I let it play by itself.  That's because they're already powerful characters in their own right.  However a character like Nova or Quasar or the Star Lord, where though they are cosmic characters, they are still human based.  They don't have any built in resistances.  Ronan has armor.  Morg has the Power Cosmic.  Thanos is Thanos.  Nova, Quasar and SL are flesh and blood and it wouldn't sit right to me to make them WOOD or STONE or ENERGY to give them a resistance, when it would also change the nature of the character as well.  And that would go with other characters too.  I can't give someone a STONE material type just to off-set or make up for a tougher herofile.  Especially if I match them up against someone who actually HAS that material type. 

That's just me though.