Scoping help again: Alpha Channels

[daglob]

okay, my graphics card and the FF1 alpha channels do not get along. Most of the time I just let it go, but I've been thinking...

Male Alpha Effects has fins, goggles, ears, claws and a cape that are alpha-enabled as well as the body of the mesh itself. On my computer, neither the cape nor the main mesh can be "alpha-ed". Someplace I read once that animated parts are the most common problems with the alpha channel. But, on the fins and such on the Male Alpha Weapons Pack, NOTHING can use the alpha channel (animated or not). These seem to be different in the way they were put together, also. In addition, male Alpha Collar won't work like it's supposed to, and the collar isn't animated. I've opened up the meshes in Nifscope, and read through the alpha info, and it appears to all be the same. I admit that I don't really know what I'm doing, though (I'm a skinner, not a scoper, darn it), so I'm asking if anyone knows what the differences are? Just for fun I'd like to get MAC working in FF1, and plain old Male Alpha might be nice, too.

Naturally, there is no problem in FFv3R.

[Amazo Version 2.2]

just out of curiosity, i don't play ff1, but does your computer have issues with fx that use alpha channels?

[Cyber Burn]

I don't really use FF1, but I just installed a "Male_Alpha" Mesh, and it seems to work (At least in CTool, anyway). If you want, I can sent that one your way. I can't seem to get "MAC" to work though, even after adjusting the settings.

[daglob]

Amazo:

Now that you mention it, some do have problems, some don't. I've never made a list, but maybe I should.

Particle effects are hit and miss also, although most of those work.

CB:

I'll look at the mesh and see.

[Amazo Version 2.2]

Amazo:

Now that you mention it, some do have problems, some don't. I've never made a list, but maybe I should.

Particle effects are hit and miss also, although most of those work.

if you at least listed a couple, i'd like to see which ones they are, maybe we could brainstorm and see if we can figure out a way to make them work.

[SickAlice]

Just two thoughts on this that I hope will help especially the second:

1.) Graphics cards are always an issue. Or more ticks in the engine that don't play well with all graphics cards. For example with  I absolutely have to set the game shadow level to blob. There's no way around that for mine else any parts attached to the mesh will ghost and clip. Oddly I have the same card that's the suggested max for the game? I'm assuming it's the 7 x64 drivers as well here in that case.

2.) After a bit of research I noticed nearly if not all  nifs utilize Stencil masks. When you make a nif in Blender for  it also automatically attaches them to the models. I didn't know what these were for. Now that I experimented with them a bit I know they serve two purposes (I'm not clear on what specifically the values mean though), one is they get rid of the white issue on objects that are making use of an alpha chanel, the other is the get rid of the problem that occurs when the back faces are visible (white out here as well). In a nutshell the game engine uses the texture and it's alpha as a stencil and redraws all faces accordingly. To add a stencil mask in Nifskope right click directly on the 3d model (Editable_mesh, Polymesh, so forth). Select Attach Property > NiStencilProperty. In the Block Details view of the new NiStencilProperty you'll see a long string of numbers (4294967295) in the Stencil Mask column. Highlight that number and change it zero otherwise it will make your texture real dark and screwy looking. Then go to the bottom value named Draw Mode and change the value from 0 to 3 if it isn't already. I'm not sure again what that value does but I assume it enables the stencil mode as that's the result I see. I only thought to bring this up as I said Irrational uses these especially in the case of things that use alpha channels to make a shape so I think it's probable that we are supposed to as well, noting that the mentioned mesh probably does not have stencil masks on it's alpha parts. Naturally as well you shouldn't have to bother giving the property to the body. You should do this though in the case your going to cut off part of the body using an alpha channel (my Sue Storms Swimsuit skin is a good example. I didn't add a stencil so when you look in the cut out parts everything whites out). Hope this helps.

[SickAlice]

On a side note while I'm here the stencil mask is a GREAT way to make realistic looking fur and hair (also shredded cloth). You could for example put a stencil mask and alpha channel on the flat older style hair pieces for females, tommyboy uses these a lot and use the alpha channel to fade in individual split ends and hair. You could also attach curved planes to a mesh and use them to make fur. Here is a side by side of the Beast model from Marvel Heroes. The left is the 3d model itself. The right is the 3d model with the texture on and a stencil mask and alpha channel applied. Isn't it pretty?

[hoss20]

I know that when one alphas a solid piece, there will be angles where that piece will appear to have holes or gaps in it. Does the stencil function, in essence, enable those pieces to be viewed as a full object rather than one with pieces cut out of it? I only ask because the fur you show looks that way (highly realistic). I'm working on a skope right now where this effect will help out immensely. I'm going to try it out now referencing the settings you posted for us. Thanks and your Beast looks awesome.

[SickAlice]

I'm not sure I know what your asking but I think so? In the case of the fur above if you turn the model and look at from any angle the pieces of fur " appear " as if they were each individually meshed fur strands when in fact by the first image you can see they aren't. So say you have a square plane. You alpha a circle out of the center. All good? Nope. You look at it in CTool and you turn it and when you look at the sides the thing whites out. So now we add the stencil mask. Now you look at it in CTool and from every angle it looks like a model of a circle even though it's actually a square. If that makes a little more sense. This is why I mentioned fabric as well. It's a great trick for making holes in say a cape. Normally if you used the alpha channel to make a hold or tear in a cape when you looked at it and better through it, it would white out. Likewise when you look at some single piece hair like most females have from the wrong angle, like looking into the inside, it also whites out or your staring right through it. The stencil mask takes care of all that. I suppose you could try and see what happens. It's worth experimenting with this anyways. And thanks but the model isn't mine. That's one Marvel Heroes I was using for an example. I'm nowhere near that level of modelling. Plus that guy did that in ZBrush and I'm still a lost noob with that program. One day hopefully though.

[hoss20]

Your explanation addresses exactly what I was talking about. I have another question: the section where I see Draw Mode does not have number values to change. It has a drop-down with the choices: DRAW_CCW OR BOTH, DRAW CW, DRAW CCW, or DRAW_BOTH. Is it one of the Stencil Enabled or Stencil Ref columns that I should change from 0 to 3? You mention in your previous example that you thought that the Draw Mode enabled the Stencil Mode. I'll try messing with Stencil Enabled after I see what's going on with my initial tests. Or, bigger question; should I be using a different version of NifSkope that has the settings you mentioned?

[SickAlice]

I don't actually know the values (I'm going to set some time aside and read the Netimmerse codex and learn though, everything else as well). But I use the older version (grey background) for texture properties as I don't like the set up of the newer ones (black background). I mainly only use the newer when handling particle emissions. In the older version there's no drop down, just a slot for a number value with no given definition. That's what I indicated. Though I don't understand the value meaning I used a shortcut to get the new nifskope version values.

I just opened a mesh in the older version, set up a stencil mask and saved it then opened it in the new version of nifskope. Here are the values it gave me:
Stencil Enabled: 0 (it will work regardless)
Stencil Function: TEST_NEVER
Stencil Ref: 0
Stencil Mask: 0
Fail Action: ACTION_KEEP
Z Fail Action: ACTION_KEEP
Pass Action: ACTION_KEEP
Draw Mode: DRAW_BOTH

I'm assuming then these would be the values you need to enter but again I don't know the specifics of why yet. It is a real versatile tool though and everyone should get familiar with it. You could for example make a real looking spider web with this. Or vehicles. Most real life vehicles have holes at various angles. If you compare the kart models I borrowed for my Princess skins to the game their from you'll see this. In game there's holes where they should be like behind the tires, in the hupcaps, the steering wheel and so on down the chassis. In my version they aren't there. I had the original game skins so I did know where the alpha channel was supposed to be but I wasn't aware of the stencil mask at the time. So my version ended up ghosting. If I were to go back and add a stencil to those the karts and mach bikes would look like the real thing. Anyway play with it and get to know it. It will definitely make your stuff more crisp at least. Also I plan to add these wherever possible because I think skinners will be able to exploit them for all sorts of fun things.

* Note: I'm a novice myself so try and experiment with the values a bit. I've found sometimes it works better with the Draw Mode sometimes better if it's 0. Usually zero works for models that were made by meshers. 3 is better when importing models form another source.

At any rate here's another example. Sorry for the quality I just made this in a couple minutes time and didn't make an animated gif. Hopefully it's understandable. Anyways I put a plain sphere on male basics head then alpha enabled it and gave it a stencil mask. I then grabbed a free lattice pattern online and slapped it on the texture, then a white version on the alpha channel. The result is if you look through the sphere you can see all the lattice on the other side and additionally it's textured on the inside. Normally when you try this you would see white space on the other side. Now it looks just like I made a really intense 3d model when in fact this is just a basic sphere textured properly.

[windblown]

I often use the Stencil property with DRAW_BOTH as the Draw Mode to hide the emptiness of certain mesh pieces (hair pieces with no skin inside for example). If you add a Stencil property to NiTriShape, Draw Mode should be the only value that you'd have to modify to get that effect. (Not totally sure if that's a valid answer because I got lost in your conversation  ).

[SickAlice]

There you have it. Thanks windblown. I still really to invest the time to get to know every value in Nifskope. I mean there's a lot you know and I bet some of it makes really cool effects. That and get the proper way to do particle effects in. I'm still playing with that mesh and some day I'll understand it.

[SickAlice]

@daglob: Sorry to have derailed. Could you send me this " Male Alpha Weapons Pack ". I don't think I have a use for it but I'd like to look at myself as I have some ideas. Also I think you and I have similar video card issues so I may be able to offer some help on this. Mostly I want to go through the nif and search for errors and/or anything that should be updated and do so. 9 times out of 10 there's some flaw in a nif or another file that's just been handed down from one to another that needs to fixed.

[daglob]

It will be on it's way as soon as possible.

CB got Male Alpha to work on my computer. He's still working on Male Alpha Collar.

[Cyber Burn]

It will be on it's way as soon as possible.

CB got Male Alpha to work on my computer. He's still working on Male Alpha Collar.

And failing miserably. I can't seem to replicate whatever it was I did to the "Male_Alpha" Mesh to get that one to work.

[daglob]

Yeah, but I'm patient.

[SickAlice]

Back on topic, also back in the thread since I figure everyone should be on this page: male alpha

I received files you sent me daglob. I'm still confused as to which mesh you sent me though. I went through the groups and downloaded male alpha in addition to what you sent. As it is that was a problem mesh and went through several revisions (male_alpha, male_alpha_effects, male_alpha_effects2) by different users. I dl'd all of these as well. As you know I do not have FF1, so I also grabbed the character tool from that game so I could look at them, though this means I can't test them in game. Things I noticed immediately.

- noclod style cape node, however the mesh itself is inside a multinode within that. I don't know if that means anything but it's unusual for an old nif cape to be set up that way. Normally the cape mesh is just dropped in the noclod node, nothing fancy.
- the whole mesh is broke, all versions. open it in either a 3d program or a newer version of Nifskope (black background). You'll see it immediately as everything will be jumbled.
- the other pieces do utilize their alpha channels. This means it is not your video card nor mine. If it was the other pieces wouldn't use the alpha channel either.
- I ran several tests on all of these and applied a line of patches to the piece to no avail.
- I concluded the original model is broke. Since I did not make the piece nor is the issue obvious (like flipped faces for example) I can't guess what it is. I can only concluded that the piece itself needs to be replaced.

Questions:
1.) Do any alpha channels on any single cape work for you? I mean outside this mesh like say Gren's Batman or Black Panther Alpha. Or anything, even any of the Irrational meshes? Or is it just the male_alpha ones your seeing this effect on?
If so:
2.) Do you actually need to use this mesh? Just thinking there are several capes out there and all those are not broke. Most as well if they don't already have an alpha channel can have one easily applied.
3.) Do you actually need the other parts of this mesh? There is a comparable piece to every cookie cutout on this. If you HAVE to have these parts my suggestion would be to skope everything but the cape onto a different nif, preferable something not as old as male alpha and natural something with a similar cape. Copy the male_alpha_extras tga's over as well of course. Then add the alpha to the new meshes cape if it needs it. Same goes for the weapons. A mesh that the alpha channels on the cape actually show up on your system of course.

Not to knock the work of course, it took us places but that male alpha is pretty much a useless dinosaur if you ask me and there's better options to use now other than what's on it.

[daglob]

True, but I like a lot of he old skins, and a lot of them use Male Alpha.

And I'm sorry, I'm not sure WHICH version of Male Alpha I sent you. It's an effects version, though.

[SickAlice]

To be honest you sent me a few but they're all the same, derivative I mean, as are any of the others that can be attained. I get you though. Since the cape is the issue I'm thinking of trying a new cape piece that conforms to the old texture assignment and if that doesn't work putting all those other bits and a different male basic that already has a cape (I swear Taskmaster has the exact same texture assignment and cape model).

[Cyber Burn]

Just out of curiosity, do the Meshes in the "Male_Alpha_Weapons" Pack work for you in FF1? If not, maybe I can try a body swap with the version that I did get to work. I still have a couple of weeks of Class left, but after that, I should be able to get back to work.

[daglob]

The body swap works alright; that's something I tried first thing. I've swapped out the fins and horns and all before and gotten them to work. The cape has been one of the big problems.

The thing is, whatever the problem is, it effects almost all meshes in FF1. I hope that Alice's work bears fruit, because it mean I might be able to fix all those meshes that have these black or white areas that are supposed to be "clear". If not, I will be happy with what CB did.

[SickAlice]

Just to double check it's also flawed in game or is it just a CTool thing? I'm only asking because I have a lot of meshes for FFVTTR that don't function properly in CTool and it's almost always an alpha issue but work fine in game. Using two or more auras at the same time causes that for example. Otherwise I'm still testing. Since you say almost every mesh (again though most FF1 are derivative/ancestor pieces) that gives me some ideas of other things I should test in CTool1, like making a model with alphas myself and seeing what happens. Anyways I'll mess around some more and see if I can stumble on something. New cape and new base nif obviously, the problems are buried somewhere in the originals so lets just ditch those.

* Actually really important question: You say " almost all ". Would you know of a mesh that the alpha does work for you on the cape? Recycling that cape would be key. You'd probably have to keep it's texture and abandon the section of the alpha texture with the cape but that isn't a stretch.

[Cyber Burn]

@Daglob: Does your "Male_Shield_Updated" Mesh work alright in FF1? If so, then that gives me working Alpha's to mess around with.

[daglob]

Right now, the only alpha cape that works is the one CB did for his version of Male Alpha. As I recall, the shield in Male Shield does work, and perhaps the boot cuffs and headwings too. That I'll have to check to be sure.

[Cyber Burn]

Right now, the only alpha cape that works is the one CB did for his version of Male Alpha. As I recall, the shield in Male Shield does work, and perhaps the boot cuffs and headwings too. That I'll have to check to be sure.

Definitely let me know. From everything that I've been looking at, I think that the "Male_Shield_Updated" Mesh will provide the best information in getting other Meshes to work in FF1.

Well, hopefully, anyway. 

[daglob]

Yep, all the stuff on Male Shield Updated wrok.

And Alice, the problem is in the game also.

[SickAlice]

I can see why this irks you. It irks me. Use of alpha channels should be a basic and functional aspect of the game engine. Like I said a working one if you can find it. It's been awhile but wasn't there a generic hero for the first one with a cape?

[Cyber Burn]

Ok, I still need to tweak the position of it a little bit, but otherwise...I think I got "Male_Alpha_Collar" to work for FF1. Haven't tried it in-game yet though.



@Daglob: The White on the Alpha'd part of the Collar seems to be missing. I'll E-Mail this to you after I tweak the position of the Collar, and whenever you have a chance, let me know if it works in-game.

[daglob]

Thanks! I'll take it home and look at it.