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Author Topic: DC Extended Universe  (Read 9505 times)

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #240 on: January 06, 2019, 04:21:11 AM »
I'm actually pretty intrigued by the Joker teasers. I don't know if a standalone Joker movie needed to be made, but the one we're getting seems like it could be cool. Reminds of the first image we all saw of Heath Ledger's Joker's face. Sad, morbid clown face. Comparing it to Logan is appropriate. It's probably best to think of it as a drama that happens to have characters from comics in it, rather than a superhero movie (though, to be fair, I've heard that description used to describe The Dark Knight as well)

Ah yes, Doctor Sivana in the Shazam movie is modeled after the New 52 version of the character, who appeared in backup stories in Geoff John's run of Justice League.
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Online Shogunn2517

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #241 on: January 12, 2019, 11:43:48 PM »
So I'm up here watching Batman v Superman on cable. The Chiefs/Colts game is a blowout.

And I just want to reiterate how ridiculous this movie is again. Okay, maybe not the whole movie. It has its moments. But pretty much any scene with Lex Luthor in it is more ridiculous than the one prior. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with this guy? I couldn't make heads or tails out of pretty much anything he said in the movie. He's worse than a 60s Batman villain.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #242 on: January 13, 2019, 12:09:22 AM »
Haha, very true.  That movie is such a train wreck that it makes the trainwreck that is JL seem somewhat more well-thought out by comparison.
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Offline stumpy

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #243 on: January 13, 2019, 09:00:14 AM »
This is the recurring theme in so many of Warner's DC movies: They simply don't understand the nature of the characters. Luthor is as good an example as any. Luthor is not some sort of imbalanced, loony-toon villian! I am not sure if the writers have never read any good comics with Lex Luthor in them, if they can't get past the dumb Hollywood stereotype of the "mad scientist", or if they have some other deficit-of-imagination problem. Lex Luthor is not a loopy "mad scientist". And, I understand that the character is based on the more Silver Age Luthor, who was a scientist, instead of the (equally weak trope) "evil businessman" Luthor that Byrne saddled the S-books with. But, if Luthor is a trope, he's an "evil scientist". And, if they actually wanted to portray the best Lex Luthor I have encountered, they should have gone with Elliot S! Maggin's Luthor, who was, in many ways, a sociopath, but not a mustache-twirler.

Anyway, BvM got Lex Luthor wrong, got Batman wrong, and (though not as badly as in MoS) got Superman wrong. Really, in terms of characterization, they almost couldn't do worse:banghead:  I guess that one might make a case that Lois Lane and Doomsday were in the ballpark somewhere. But, after the first three strikes, who's still counting?
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Online daglob

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #244 on: January 13, 2019, 03:30:21 PM »
The question may not be "do they know the characters" but "do they love the characters". I got to thinking about this while reading the recent Plastic Man series; this guy in this book is more  than a little like a flexible Deadpool. Yeah, yeah, yeah... they got the Granite Lady, but she only shows up in the last few pages, and they don't even meet. For a couple of decades (at least) DC has tried to make characters Wolverine, so now they are trying to remake Deadpool. If I go on much longer, I'll repeat myself again (and again and again and again...), but the problem may be that the... we'll call them adapters... want to have the money to make a movie, they have all these ideas about what would be great in the movie, and yet they have to stick this guy in spandex in it. So, they "fix" it. Deadpool worked; Fant4astic didn't.

And no one understands Dr. Doom...

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #245 on: January 13, 2019, 07:22:30 PM »
I guess that one might make a case that Lois Lane and Doomsday were in the ballpark somewhere. But, after the first three strikes, who's still counting?

Ha, well said!

I think DG is basically right.  The issue, to my mind, isn't necessarily that they haven't read any good comics, as you theorize, Stumpy, but more likely that they just don't care.  They want to "fix" to "update" and to "improve," so what came before really doesn't matter.  What matters is their brilliant interpretation and how it is so edgy and brilliant and brilliant and edgy.  "You know what's cool right now?  Tech billionaires!"  Heck, the Fan4astic director told his cast not to read the comics, because they didn't matter for the 'bold new direction' he was taking.  Some folks, like Zack Snyder, clearly misunderstand their characters, but the main thing all of these failed adaptions have in common is that they just don't really care about their sources.  It's the quality that, more than any other, has separated Marvel and DC movies.  On the whole, even when the Marvel films have changed and tweaked and "fixed", they have been careful to maintain and to honor the core of their characters.  And when they do, the archetypal power that lay behind the character to the page translates to the character on the screen.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 07:24:30 PM by BentonGrey »
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #246 on: January 13, 2019, 08:12:16 PM »
For a couple of decades (at least) DC has tried to make characters Wolverine

Poor,poor Hawkman...
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #247 on: January 13, 2019, 08:34:51 PM »
In fairness, Josh Trank was not the only director of a superhero adaptation who told his cast not to read the comics. Bryan Singer did that too. And probably others.

Stumpy's comment about the Eliot S! Maggin Luthor has me intrigued. I may have to look into that.

My gateway into the wider DC universe was pretty much the Bruce Timm animated shows, so Luthor's pretty much always been the evil businessman version for me. As far as I'm concerned, the best portrayal of Luthor in terms of acting and writing was Clancy Brown in Justice League/JLU. The best in terms of live action was Micheal Rosenbaum in Smallville (the one thing Smallville can boast it had the best version of).
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #248 on: January 13, 2019, 09:02:27 PM »
Yeah, as with most things, the Timmverse gave us the definitive version of Lex Luthor.  He's brilliant, he's arrogant, yet compelling.
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #249 on: January 14, 2019, 03:04:28 AM »
Lex in All Star is pretty good.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #250 on: January 14, 2019, 05:21:06 AM »
He's probably my second favorite interpretation.  I really love the 'Superman is infantilizing the human race' motivation for Luthor.
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Online daglob

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #251 on: January 14, 2019, 06:14:17 AM »
He's probably my second favorite interpretation.  I really love the 'Superman is infantilizing the human race' motivation for Luthor.

It's 'way better than "He made me lose my hair."

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #252 on: January 14, 2019, 06:56:13 AM »
Yet, I totally want that to always be PART of it.  Just a little extra bit of vainglory that undercuts Lex's supposed nobility.  It's perfect for that. :P
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Online daglob

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #253 on: January 14, 2019, 03:49:45 PM »
I think in the '60s someone raised the question in a letter column, and the possibility that the chemicals that Lex was exposed to actually changed his personality was discussed. This was probably never mentioned in the stories, but the Lexor series showed that Lex's main problem was that he hated Superman (and, by extension, everything he stood for), but that even that hate would not keep Lex from actually sacrificing himself to help the people of Lexor. Then they blew Lexor up, with Superman watching and Superman was like "Gee, a planet blew up just like Krypton. That's too bad. Oh well, places to go...".

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #254 on: January 14, 2019, 10:56:47 PM »
I haven't read the comic of All-Star Superman, but I watched the animated movie and this exchange made it in, and it's one of my favorite bits of dialogue involving Lex Luthor:

Luthor: (trying to lunge at him) I saw how to save the world! I could have made everyone see. I could have saved the world if it wasn't for you!
(Superman knocks him out)
Superman: You could have saved the world years ago if it mattered to you, Luthor.


In the animated movie, Superman doesn't knock him out, and a defeated Luthor says "You're right". I actually like that version better. Lex actually admitting the problem is him is kinda a huge deal for the character in any iteration. I imagine they put they in because of the change they made to the ending.
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Online Shogunn2517

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #255 on: January 14, 2019, 11:42:15 PM »
Actually, one of my more favorite portrayals of Lex Luthor comes from Smallville. I'd say less of a portrayal(even though Rosenbaum did a really fine job), but more of motivation. Over the 8-10 years of the series, we could see how he developed into the kind of person he is and how he's very much is father's son in many respects. But more than that there were a couple of times in the show that I think really captured him best. There was this one episode, the specifics escape me, but Lex I believe was betrayed by a girlfriend and he in-turn did something really "Lex Luthorry" back to her and after the ensuing falling out, she says "Lex we could have been great together." And without missing a beat he responds "I plan to be great all by myself." Like his life harden who he was to make him want to be better than everyone and to have a control he felt he didn't have growing up.

Another part was with his relationship with Clark or how he would relate to an eventual Superman. Again, I don't quite remember the specifics, but he and Clark were pontificating on a super being with super powers with promise of saving the world. Clark, of course knowing that's pretty much him, was saying this would be a good thing, while Lex was thinking that such a being with that kind of power has way too much control over who lives, who dies, etc. and for someone like him, a regular flesh and blood person to stand up to such a super being, has got to be the bravest person in the world. He was making the argument of him being the hero of his story, which again, showed me, that despite all the sinister and evil stuff we see him do, he thinks he is still the good guy for standing up to such power. To him he's the David vs Superman's Goliath and that's why he keeps fighting.

Online daglob

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #256 on: January 15, 2019, 01:00:33 AM »
From someplace else: you are always the hero of your own story.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #257 on: January 15, 2019, 01:04:34 AM »
Indeed, Shogunn, that was, perhaps, the greatest strength of Smallville.  It did an excellent job of showing you how Lex could become his eventual villainous self, but in a compelling, fascinating, and sympathetic way.
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Offline stumpy

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #258 on: January 16, 2019, 09:05:14 AM »
I had a longer post, but I will just again say how good Elliot S! Maggin's Luthor is. In very significant ways, it is the progenitor to the more adult, developed, and realistic aspects of Luthor that people here are talking about in All-Star Superman and Smallville (and which I have read/watched and agree). Of course, in some regards, Maggin was limited by the late 1970s / early 1980s audience Warner anticipated for his books; largely young adults who had seen the (then recent) Superman movies and would be willing to buy a paperback Superman novel. But, Maggin's vision of both Superman and Luthor is still one that will appeal to more grown-up sensibilities and I think anyone who reads them will see that so much of the quality characterization that came later was either in Maggin's books or foreshadowed in them.

I very highly recommend reading Maggin's work. Much of it is available for free on his website. Superman: Last Son of Krypton and Superman: Miracle Monday. Also, for anyone turned off by the notion of reading a novel adaptation of a corny movie, rest assured: Neither book has anything to do with the movies. They are new stories, only released at the time the movies were to take advantage of the publicity.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 09:08:32 AM by stumpy »
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Offline Panther_Gunn

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #259 on: January 17, 2019, 01:43:58 AM »
I very highly recommend reading Maggin's work. Much of it is available for free on his website. Superman: Last Son of Krypton and Superman: Miracle Monday.

Great.  I'm pretty sure I have the first one, but now I have to dig it out of a box in storage to read it again, and then find the second one at the used book store.  Any idea if the Kingdom Come one is any good?
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #260 on: January 17, 2019, 03:55:09 AM »
Thanks for the recommendations, Stumpy!  I had only vaguely been aware of his work, but I'll have to check those out!
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #261 on: January 17, 2019, 04:21:08 AM »
I may have to check those out. You have my curiosity.

In reply to Shogunn, those are indeed good examples of Rosumbaum's Luthor being a great, fascinating character on Smallville. For me, it was Lionel Luthor the creators seemed to struggle finding a use for, Lex was always worth having around.

Going back to All-Star Superman, it seemed to have a very good sense of what made Lex a great character (notice I said character, not just villain). This clip pretty much tells you everything you need to know.. It strikes me as a more coherent and self-assured version of what Jesse Eisenberg's Luthor was trying to say. (to bring it back to the original topic of focus, even for a moment)

Luthor: Next to Superman, even Lex Luthor's greatness is overshadowed. [...] [flexes a muscle] Feel that, Kent. REAL muscle, not the gift of alien biochemistry, the product of hard work.

I also was a huge fan of Luthor as a good guy in the last few years of comics, from John's Justice League run to the Rebirth Superman books, up to just before Doomsday Clock and Snyder's Justice League. Seeing him walk a tightrope between heroism and falling back into old tricks was actually more interesting to me than...well falling back on old tricks, and while I knew it wouldn't last, I haven't been in a hurry to read the new Justice League comics to see him smirking it up with his Legion of Doom buddies again (even though Snyder's Luthor story in Action #1000 was very, very good).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 04:27:21 AM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #262 on: January 17, 2019, 04:38:42 AM »
I haven't read those new stories, SS, but I do love Luthor as a hero, albeit a very flawed one.  I think my all-time favorite Lex Luthor story may be Superman: Red Son.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #263 on: January 17, 2019, 05:07:24 AM »
Man, I really gotta read Red Son sometime, especially since a rumor hit recently that DC may be making an animated film adaptation of it.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #264 on: January 19, 2019, 01:53:50 AM »
You definitely do.  It's really quite good, and the Luthor portrayal by itself makes it worthwhile.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #265 on: January 21, 2019, 03:41:56 AM »
Hey, how about some good news form DC?  There's a new Bruce Timm DCU film coming out, and it looks pretty neat.:
https://cosmicbook.news/justice-league-vs-fatal-five-featurette

Thanks to Spyder for pointing this out on Discord!

It's a subset of the League vs. the time traveling Fatal Five!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 05:15:03 AM by BentonGrey »
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #266 on: January 21, 2019, 04:36:41 AM »
Yep, I knew about this movie for a while, I meant to post about it.

Looks pretty great. Seeing Batman, WW and even Mr. Terrific in the JLU style makes me all fuzzy and nostalgic. Jessica Cruz, that's something we haven't seen in a movie like this yet. Neat. Plus Ms Martian? You know I've gotta greenlight Ms. Martian! I don't like her costume in this though.  :huh:

Ms. Martian: [To Batman, about Legion of Superheroes] "Oh. They're all teenagers. It's like your worst nightmare." Yup. I love Ms. Martian teaming up with Batman. That's amazing.

Love that Kevin Conroy, Susan Eisenberg and George Newbern are back as the Big 3, that's just how I like it. This looks and sounds and feels like a movie we should have gotten like 10 years ago. Seems like DC's been going back to the well and looking at what worked.

"Bruce [Timm] was very specific that the didn't want to do a movie where the League fought their way through an army of faceless Parademons, where he wanted very unique opponents for them to face..."

WHOOAH! COLD BLOODED!

Yeah, this looks pretty awesome. I'm gonna watch the crap out of this when it comes out.
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Offline stumpy

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #267 on: January 21, 2019, 07:56:01 AM »
"Bruce [Timm] was very specific that the didn't want to do a movie where the League fought their way through an army of faceless Parademons, where he wanted very unique opponents for them to face..."

WHOOAH! COLD BLOODED!

To be fair, it could be because Timm already had the League fighting (among others) an army of faceless parademons in the final episode of JLU.
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #268 on: January 22, 2019, 02:42:53 PM »
Wait... is this in continuity?
Can we say it is, even if it isn't?

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: DC Extended Universe
« Reply #269 on: January 22, 2019, 10:37:10 PM »
Oh yeah,there is a new Shazam teaser out.And its pretty fun.
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