DC Extended Universe

Started by HarryTrotter, December 16, 2015, 07:08:45 PM

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Panther_Gunn

The point I was trying to make (and you touched on it a bit, Cat) was that we've come a long way from some bad ideas, and as bad as things are now, given WB's inability to properly manage DC's IP, things could easily slip back into even worse territory again.  By that example, I think I'm more the Ambush Bug, warning him to not wish too hard for failure and have things get worse.

I think if they made some superhero movies that were faithful to the continuity and imagery of '70's comics (maybe even into very early 80's), by a writer & director that understood and respected the source material, cast appropriately (not cast to who's hot currently), and not done as a spoof (I'm looking directly at movie version of Dukes of Hazzard, Starsky & Hutch, Green Hornet, etc), that they would be well received by the majority of audiences, and potentially critics as well.  The only sticking point I can't get past in my vision is diversity.  I will freely admit that most heroes of the time were white males, and I think 70's & 80's depictions of Black Lightning and Luke Cage would be a hard sell nowadays (unless they were set in the '70's, as a period piece, or flashbacks).  If I can fix that, without cavalierly changing a character's ethnicity for no real reason, maybe I'll get rich.  I won't be holding my breath, though.
The Best There Is At What I Do......when I have the time.

BentonGrey

#121
Thanks Cat.  I'm enjoying the analogies here.  :lol:

PG, as far as I'm concerned, it's bad enough now not to matter.  They're already not the characters I love, and we're already locked into these versions, so I've got nothing to lose.  I'm not going to see the characters I love in a film that's good and that actually puts those characters on screen instead of their twisted doppelgangers, so I may as well not see them in a grim, gritty, and terribly written movie as in a goofy, campy, bat-nipple-laden movie.  At least if they reboot there is a chance that we could get something better, and even if we get something Schumakerian and therefore perhaps worse, we're really no worse off.

Yeah, the Satellite Era League is the core of the concept.  Bruce Timm and Co. realized that when they created their excellent show, even though they made some poor choices along the way.  Those characters and concepts continue to resonate with people because they hit the right archetypal notes, and yes, that could totally work.  You could even do it while adding in diversity, yet do it organically.  Build up your cast with a series of individual films.  In the GL films, start with Hal if you want, but introduce John, and have him be the one to join the League, while sending Hal off to space, or whatever.  Make the Martian Manhunter's secret identity be black, as he often has in the comics, and maybe even do some really cool stuff with race and the alienation of minorities in American culture.  Bring in Black Canary if you need more women, and bam, you've got a faithful version of the League that still addresses modern concerns. 

Cat is right, though.  It isn't going to happen until WB finally admits that, hey, maybe Marvel's success means something other than 'superheroes are hot right now.'
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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kkhohoho

#122
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 16, 2017, 03:18:15 AM
Cat is right, though.  It isn't going to happen until WB finally admits that, hey, maybe Marvel's success means something other than 'superheroes are hot right now.'

DC: Think! We know Superheroes are hot right now, but for some darn reason, that just hasn't been enough! (Well, aside from Wonder Woman, but that was a fluke, let's be honest with ourselves.) There has to be something we've been missing. Some vital ingredient to making a Superhero movie that audiences the world over will love and cherish. But what?

{Watches the leaked trailer to Infinity War}

DC: Yes. Yes! THAT'S IT! Quick, get some old event comic that everybody knows! Let's see here...

{Pulls out Identity Crisis}

DC: Brilliant.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

catwhowalksbyhimself

Quote from: kkhohoho on November 16, 2017, 03:33:34 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 16, 2017, 03:18:15 AM
Cat is right, though.  It isn't going to happen until WB finally admits that, hey, maybe Marvel's success means something other than 'superheroes are hot right now.'

DC: Think! We know Superheroes are hot right now, but for some darn reason, that just hasn't been enough! (Well, aside from Wonder Woman, but that was a fluke, let's be honest with ourselves.) There has to be something we've been missing. Some vital ingredient to making a Superhero movie that audiences the world over will love and cherish. But what?

{Watches the leaked trailer to Infinity Gauntlet}

DC: Yes. Yes! THAT'S IT! Quick, get some old event comic that everybody knows! Let's see here...

{Pulls out Identity Crisis}

DC:Brilliant.

I would not be surprised if that's exactly the kind of thing they try.  They are pretty much trying to copy Marvel at this point, without seeming to have any clue why Marvel works.  Really what they need to do at this point is put the lady who directed Wonder Woman in charge and get rid of Nolan, but that's unlikely.  Hiring Whedon to patch in some humor was their last attempt, and that hasn't worked either.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

BentonGrey

#124
Ha!  Wow...don't give them ideas, Kk!

Hey, their first plan was to adapt Tower of Babel....for the FIRST Justice League movie.  That made sense.  'Hey, you know what people love about superheroes?  Seeing them torn apart!'  I guess what they ended up doing with BvS is not very different from that, though.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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catwhowalksbyhimself

Superheroes fighting each other is a time honored tradition--they just did it badly.  The DCU Batman/Superman movie did it better.  Marvel has done in in like half of their films and it's always done better.  Twice in the first Avengers, in fact.

But yeah, Babel is a terrible first film choice.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

kkhohoho

So the Tomatometer score for Justice League has just been revealed, and even though this may well not be the final number, right now, it's sitting pretty at... 43%. Kind of figured as much.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

HarryTrotter

I have said it before,imitating MCU was the first wrong step on a long road.
They had the map,Morrisons high concept,Giffens humor,Engelharts team dynamic;take the best of every era.
There were choices here.Hell,they could had a mocumentary where somebody goes around interviewing former and current members of the JLA.They could have done a thousand things,but imitating MCU is the wrong choice.

And appaerntly,Flash movie will be a Flashpoint adaptation (again,there are no other Flash stories apparently) so there will a reboot.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Shogunn2517

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on November 16, 2017, 04:04:10 AM
I would not be surprised if that's exactly the kind of thing they try.  They are pretty much trying to copy Marvel at this point, without seeming to have any clue why Marvel works.  Really what they need to do at this point is put the lady who directed Wonder Woman in charge and get rid of Nolan, but that's unlikely.  Hiring Whedon to patch in some humor was their last attempt, and that hasn't worked either.

See, that has been my fear the entire time since they started the DCEU.  Clearly the MCU nailed it.  And I knew that if they just did 2-3 separate movies and then just put them all in one movie audiences would effectively think they're copying the Avengers.  And that's exactly what they did.  I initially thought they'd be better off doing a "Brave and the Bold" formula of showcasing 2-3 characters a movie.  Like after BvS with Wonder Woman, do one with Batman and Flash and cameo Cyborg.  Hell, even if they did what Benton suggested and went with a different storyline like ToB first and have them face several villains then it'd look different.  But Steppenwolf in this one?  How are they not planning for Darkseid in the next?  Like Avengers did Loki first, then Ultron and literally the guy Darkseid was based on.  How can it not be seen as if they're copying the MCU?

catwhowalksbyhimself

Quote from: Shogunn2517 on November 16, 2017, 07:01:25 AM

See, that has been my fear the entire time since they started the DCEU.  Clearly the MCU nailed it.  And I knew that if they just did 2-3 separate movies and then just put them all in one movie audiences would effectively think they're copying the Avengers.  And that's exactly what they did.  I initially thought they'd be better off doing a "Brave and the Bold" formula of showcasing 2-3 characters a movie.  Like after BvS with Wonder Woman, do one with Batman and Flash and cameo Cyborg.  Hell, even if they did what Benton suggested and went with a different storyline like ToB first and have them face several villains then it'd look different.  But Steppenwolf in this one?  How are they not planning for Darkseid in the next?  Like Avengers did Loki first, then Ultron and literally the guy Darkseid was based on.  How can it not be seen as if they're copying the MCU?

We are actually talking about two different things.  Maybe they'd be accused of copying regardless, but when they keep reshooting movies after they are done to make them "lighter" to react to audiences expectations based on Marvel movies, it's pretty clear they are actually trying to recapture that other franchise's success.  The one film I can't say that about is Wonder Woman.  That movie just did it's own thing.  There was NO attempt there to recapture anything that Marvel did--and it was very successful.

I mean Justice League literally hired the director of Avengers to reshoot and rewrite stuff, so that's pretty blatant there.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

HarryTrotter

Well,you can see the similarities between Wonder Woman and CA First Avenger.Or is that just me?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Deaths Jester

One way they could possibly save themselves would've been to build off the WW2 parts of Wonder Woman and introduce the JSA. That way they would have some idea of what works and it would still connect to Wonder Woman. Plus it could allow DC to clean up the mess of what Wonder Woman was doing after WW2 to the present. But DC didn't do that...they HAD to get the JLA on film NOW, in hopes of making extra bank.
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Glitch Girl

I may be seeing this tonight, or (hopefully) Thor - it's completely up to the Birthday boy.  If I see it, I'll give a review.
-Glitch Girl

"Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because it's the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters." - Greg Rucka

catwhowalksbyhimself

Quote from: Deaths Jester on November 16, 2017, 01:40:24 PM
One way they could possibly save themselves would've been to build off the WW2 parts of Wonder Woman and introduce the JSA. That way they would have some idea of what works and it would still connect to Wonder Woman. Plus it could allow DC to clean up the mess of what Wonder Woman was doing after WW2 to the present. But DC didn't do that...they HAD to get the JLA on film NOW, in hopes of making extra bank.

WWI, not II.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

Deaths Jester

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on November 16, 2017, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: Deaths Jester on November 16, 2017, 01:40:24 PM
One way they could possibly save themselves would've been to build off the WW2 parts of Wonder Woman and introduce the JSA. That way they would have some idea of what works and it would still connect to Wonder Woman. Plus it could allow DC to clean up the mess of what Wonder Woman was doing after WW2 to the present. But DC didn't do that...they HAD to get the JLA on film NOW, in hopes of making extra bank.

WWI, not II.

Thanks, Cat, had done forgot there..having me one of dem drunken moments....
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

catwhowalksbyhimself

This article explains what I was trying to say more eloquently than I did.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-dc-universe-just-string-nonsensical-reboots/

I will quote the conclusion here.

Quote
The DCEU is that friend who takes every criticism as a slash-burn campaign on their whole being. You told them that they had a bad haircut? They shaved themselves bald. You told them that they needed to exercise more? Now they're the one who shows up shirtless to every party. You told them that their movie series needed fixing, and voila! They just made it into a different series. Over and over and over again.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

kkhohoho

So over the course of nearly 24 hours, JL's tomatometer score has gone down from 43% (which wasn't very high to begin with,) all the way to 37%. Oofta.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

BentonGrey

God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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kkhohoho

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 17, 2017, 02:26:31 AM
Ha!  Wow.  That's bad.

And now it's 36%. And I have no reason not to believe it'll get even lower over the next few days.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1089779/chapters/2193203

Tomato

Hrm.

On the one hand, I genuinely want to like this universe. For as much as I dislike some costume elements of the rest of the league, I LOVE the costumes of the DC Trinity, and visually the team does have a lot going for it... despite some frustrating over-design regarding some characters I could name. Gal Gadot is an AMAZING Wonder Woman, Ben Affleck has EARNED the Batman role (rising above a sub-par script and directing in BvS to give a really good performance), and by all accounts, Ezra Miller's Flash is a fun addition to this new film. It's honestly what I find most frustrating about these films: The potential for greatness is there.

On the other, I'm still kinda with Benton: these aren't the characters I fell in love with, and as long as these films are in the hands of the people who have made disaster after disaster, that won't change. So there's a part of me that'd be happy to see WB sacrifice all the good on the acting side, if it means getting rid of the garbage floating on the top.

daglob

So, they copied Fant4stic instead of The Avengers?

Shogunn2517

At the gym... Then starting the Punisher so I'll give more thoughts in the morning.

But I gotta be honest, I didn't hate this movie nearly as much as I hoped I would.

Shogunn2517

Okay, saw Justice League tonight and here are my more comprehensive impressions.

Coming into it I expected the movie to be as flawed and aggravating as pretty much every movie in the DCEU has been since it started.  Man of Steel was watchable, but frustrating.  Batman vs Superman was a unmitigated mess.  Suicide Squad, I barely could take seriously.  Wonder Woman was the most entertaining of the bunch but the plotholes left me a bunch of questions.  So given the problems(mostly artistic and weird characterizations that stick out like a sore thumb.  That and the whole building of the DCEU seemed awfully generic and rushed.  So it was an understatement to say that much expectations were low, but I kind wanted it to confirm my expectations to be as bad as I assumed it would be.  But it wasn't actually.  I can't say it was good or even watchable, but it had it's fun moments and it was fun to see the team together.  Yes, I couldn't help but to almost verbalize every question of the gaping plot holes I'd see, but there's meat on the DCEU's bones.  Might be rotted.  Might be mostly fat.  But it's there.

Spoiler
So first of all, ALL of the problems each of these characters had in their previous films were still living and breathing in this film.  They even introduced more.  Still have absolutely no idea why Wonder Woman decided to take a 100 year break from civilization.  Why is Batman of all people so team-oriented all of sudden when he clearly hasn't been prior.  The Flash's suit is probably the MOST ridiculous costume I have ever seen.  Cyborg actually gives him a run for his money though.  He looked a mess, but they made up for it.  They really could have done a better job explaining his origin, which was glossed over very thoroughly.  And I'm sorry, I know it's still not popular, but almost everything about Aquaman really thaws my grill!!!  I like what they did with his powers and the underwater sequences.  He seemed adequately powered when fighting Steppenwolf.  But outside of that Jason Momoa's characterization was just... wacky.  I expected Aquaman to be more "warrior"-like not the "trucker"/"biker" type he seemed more like.  And yes, Jason Momoa himself... still can't understand the casting decision.  Maybe it would have made more sense if we saw Atlanteans and saw they all were Polynesian or the like, but no... Mera... she looked exactly like her comic iteration does.  Okay maybe Aquaman's dad was ethnic.  But what's the point?  Whatever, I'll go on. 

One of the bigger plot points of the movie was Mother Boxes on earth.  There were 3 and because Superman died, they somehow I guess ranged a dinner bell to Apokolips, calling Steppenwolf to return to Earth after the combined Atlanteans, Amazons and "tribes of Earth"(and the Green Lantern) beat him last time.  Why he waited like 1,000 years to come back, I'm still not sure.  But he figured now that Superman's dead, he can come back and get the Mother Boxes and put them together to do whatexactlyImstillnotsure.  Anyway, Atlanteans had one, Amazons had another and for whatever reason, Cyborg's dad ended up with the 3rd one.  And it was that 3rd one they figured they could use to bring Superman back to life.  And they did.  But when they did he came back angry and violent, kicking everybody's arse, in some dress pants, when he was just wearing a full suit a half a second earlier.(Speaking of suits... more on that at the end.)  I gotta admit one bright spot of this film is I think it did to Superman what BvS did with Batman.  He finally wasn't a brooding, depressive, ornery, jerk.  From the get-go he was smiling and being pleasant.  After he was resurrected and (for some random reason) decided to not be homicidally mad at the end sequence, he was a team player, cracking jokes and just being all around... super.

But as far as the other parts of the movie go, it seemed reeeeeeeeallllly slow and dragged out at the beginning, but it almost seemed like they were trying to show mini-movies or what movies for each of them would be like, but put it in one movie.  So it was kind a little all over the map.  But when they finally got to the ending sequence, stopping Steppenwolf from from putting the Mother Boxes together for whatever, they had a good plan.  But by the Superman showed up to give the other five a fighting chance(I mean really, half those guys shouldn't have much problem with Steppenwolf to begin with) don't know why but all the Paradeamons decided to stop attacking and let Superman and Cyborg pull apart the Mother Boxes.  And then all the Paradeamons decided to go kick Steppenwolf's butt... for some reason.

So, unless you can't tell, the plot of this movie is a steaming stinking mess and makes absolutely no sense when you put thought in it.  Still not entirely sure they thought to use Steppenwolf of all villains.  Aquaman's a biker.  Batman is all Kumbaya all of sudden.  Flash was fun, but a little too silly and slapstick.  Cyborg was okay.  Looked hellaweird, though he made himself look more like how we're use to seeing him by the epilogue.  And Superman... yes, he was nicer, but his return just seemed too convenient and they just skipped way too many details(Clark Kent just comes back to life all of sudden too?  He comes back to life a raging lunatic, but sees Lois and just forgets how much he hates Batman?)  Wonder Woman was pretty consistent.  Other than the fact she seemed to handle Doomsday pretty easily, but Steppenwolf is too much for her to handle?  But other than all that I laid out, which was hard to miss, it was fun seeing the team together.  Pretty much everyone was handled pretty well IMO.  The scripting was too bad.  Nice few easter eggs.  THRILLED they actually used Elfman's Batman theme(which makes me wonder why they couldn't use Williams' Superman theme).  I can't say it was great.  Or really all that good.  But it was entertaining for a bit.  Nothing to brag about.

BTW, the post-credit scenes, a scene with Superman and the Flash betting on a race and showing an escaped Lex Luthor, who now wears a 3-piece suit, but sporting an unnecessary bald head.  Last we saw him he was somewhere between slacker millennial but now he's debonair business mastermind.  Well he was rather assisted or called Deathstroke to a yacht to talk about putting together his own team.  So... I suppose the sequel will feature an Injustice League/Legion of Doom... which makes me wonder about Darkseid and when and if they'll use him.

BentonGrey

God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Shogunn2517

And for crying out loud can they be a little more covert with these secret identities?

Spoiler
Bruce Wayne just tells anybody who he is.  Aquaman doesn't care if a who town of people know who he is.  And Lois Lane is (still) shouting Clark's name out with all of the cops in the world around her.  And then he hugs her and flies off.  As if nobody is asking "why is recently ressurected Superman flying off with Clark Kent's widow?"

Just irks me...

BentonGrey

#145
Haha, well, Aquaman traditionally didn't have much of a secret ID, living in the ocean and all, but yeah, the rest of that pretty much just illustrates the lousy quality of thought and writing that goes into these films.

Man...even after all this time steeling myself against WB's abuse of these characters, this is hard.  I am enjoying this film's flailing demise, but at the same time, I'm seeing trailers of "Aquaman" leaping around, throwing his trident through parademons, and scenes of these characters who are almost recognizable as the Justice League standing together...and it's just heartbreaking.  I can't help but thinking, 'this could have been so amazing.'  How wonderful would it have been to see Aquaman, actually Aquaman, riding on the Batmobile, leaping through the air, smashing parademons.  How fantastic would it have been to see the Justice League on the big screen.  This film is just plain ugly, but if it had been treated to a color palette like the Avengers or Guardians, man...how amazing might it have been? 

On another note, I want to make a point about something mentioned a little while back.  Someone brought up the idea that DC would be "copying" Marvel if they made individual films to build up to a team film, which is a common, apparently nearly inescapable argument (and one you can bet has been made by folks at WB as well).  The problem is, this idea is really nonsense.  Yes, DC would be doing the same thing that Marvel did, but there are really only so many ways to tell a story, and essentially what Marvel did was apply basic storyteling techniques on a larger scale than had previously been done.  It's innovative in the same way the novel was innovative when the form first appeared in the beginning of the 17th Century, but even that was a revival of earlier approaches to narrative.  A multi-movie approach is also a rational development of narrative structure, and Marvel themselves were essentially adapting the comics themselves which had worked in the same way, introducing all of the individual characters before they were joined together in a team book.  This argument has always annoyed me.  It is just silly, and I fully believe that it is a significant part of the reason WB hasn't followed the same track, which is even sillier. 
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Tomato

I think the issue with the whole "copying" thing is/was twofold. On the one hand, DC *did* try to build up from each individual character in the universe... starting with Green Lantern. However, unlike Iron Man, which despite some problems was successful enough and popular enough to spring into a whole universe... Green Lantern bombed so hard it not only imploded DC's then film universe before it got going, it took several of DC's cartoon series with it. And it's a shame too... GL wasn't a good film by any means, but in terms of tone and universe building, it was actually better than MoS. I still contend that a universe built on that film would have been 100x better than what we got.

Second... like it or not, in a post Avengers world, it was felt that a lot of people weren't patient enough to get through a bunch of individual films, and DC would have been somehow "behind" in some nebulous race. I don't agree with that mentality, but the path they took (Superman->BvS->Justice League with some other films thrown in along the way for some world building) COULD have been made to work. In the hands of a more competent creative staff, they could have given Marvel a run for their money, with a universe that's just as big, without needing the audience to watch 6+ films to get to the big team up.

HarryTrotter

Its a bit different.11 years ago,nobody knew who Iron Man was.Everyone knows who Batman and Superman are,you dont have to bother introducing them.
IMO,starting with Justice League then spinning off individual movies would have been the better approach to world bulding.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

detourne_me

Just got back from seeing Justice League.  It was pretty darn good, actually!
Wonder Woman pretty much carries this movie, Aquaman was surprisingly good, same with Cyborg,  and I hate to say it, but Ezra Miller just can't compete with Grant Gustin, this Flash does suffer a bit.
The tone also dramatically improves throughout the movie, and by the end, we were all saying, "Yeah, these guys are true superheroes."
Some spoilery (without ruining anything) thoughts:
Spoiler

- the way how they tried to break off the shackles of Aquaman's cornballness in the beginning was pretty silly, but he gets redeemed in my opinion.
- The Flash might also have super-autism...
- A few great cameos make future prospects interesting...
- The saturated colors in their costumes (and one in particular)were much better.
- I feel like Lois Lane just apologized for the previous DCEU movies.

Shogunn2517

Quote from: BentonGrey on November 17, 2017, 09:31:45 PM
On another note, I want to make a point about something mentioned a little while back.  Someone brought up the idea that DC would be "copying" Marvel if they made individual films to build up to a team film, which is a common, apparently nearly inescapable argument (and one you can bet has been made by folks at WB as well).  The problem is, this idea is really nonsense.  Yes, DC would be doing the same thing that Marvel did, but there are really only so many ways to tell a story, and essentially what Marvel did was apply basic storyteling techniques on a larger scale than had previously been done.  It's innovative in the same way the novel was innovative when the form first appeared in the beginning of the 17th Century, but even that was a revival of earlier approaches to narrative.  A multi-movie approach is also a rational development of narrative structure, and Marvel themselves were essentially adapting the comics themselves which had worked in the same way, introducing all of the individual characters before they were joined together in a team book.  This argument has always annoyed me.  It is just silly, and I fully believe that it is a significant part of the reason WB hasn't followed the same track, which is even sillier.

Yeah, that was me, bud!  :D

I see what you're saying though.  And I'm not disagreeing too much.  I'm just saying THAT would be how audiences would react to it.  Like I remember going to see The Avengers with my friends and they were seriously asking when was the Green Lantern gonna show up(his movie just came out the previous year).  Generally speaking, I don't think audiences are too wise on the the publishers.  Not that they'd be expecting them to crossover(or can't even fathom why the X-Men hadn't crossed over with the Avengers yet), but I'm afraid they'd just look at DC and say "Oh they're just doing what Marvel did" and think "well I just saw this with the Avengers, I don't need to see it again."  And in the process hurt DC's brand.  I don't think they see the complexities of the characters that we do.  They just see a bunch of superheroes

However, to bring it back, this is where DC has the advantage.  Whether it's because of prior films or a bigger brand, EVERYBODY knows Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman.  Arguably speaking, more people know DC's 2nd tier characters like the Flash and Aquaman just as well as they know Marvel's 1st Tier characters like Thor and Iron Man.  At least prior to the latter's franchises in the last 10 years.  With that kind of recognition, in my opinion, the bar for DC should be lower.  As long as they can make a coherent movie, the popularity of the characters should take over.  And that's where Justice League did good with.  But the film themselves are awfully incoherent, which won't inspire confidence in audiences that it's something special or different.