DC Extended Universe

Started by HarryTrotter, December 16, 2015, 07:08:45 PM

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Silver Shocker

#300
Getting back to a topic that started....over two years ago?  :o Wow, where did the time go?

All-time great versions of Lex Luthor. Specifically, Superman: Red Son. I've finally started reading it because I wanted to read it before I watched the animated movie.

Quote from: BentonGreyI haven't read those new stories, SS, but I do love Luthor as a hero, albeit a very flawed one.  I think my all-time favorite Lex Luthor story may be Superman: Red Son.

Quote from: Silver ShockerMan, I really gotta read Red Son sometime, especially since a rumor hit recently that DC may be making an animated film adaptation of it.

Quote from: BentonGrey You definitely do.  It's really quite good, and the Luthor portrayal by itself makes it worthwhile.

Well, I'm on the opening scene with Lex, and after reading the first three panels featuring the character, my response was literally "This is one of the greatest versions of Lex Luthor I've ever seen."
I don't buy for a second that any non-powered human would be as smart as him in real life, but he totally comes off as the coolest guy ever. He makes Tony Stark look like a loser.

Also the bit with his winning multiple chess games in a row was portrayed on-screen in one of his earlier appearances on the Supergirl Tv series, which makes sense, as that story arc featured a Supergirl version of Red Son Superman called Red Daughter.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

Nice!  It's a good story, but it's a great take on Lex.  His last scene is actually the clearest distillation of the character to me.  I always think of that when I think of Lex.  I hope you continue to enjoy it!
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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Silver Shocker

Just finished it. Pretty good story, but yeah, Lex was great in it. But boy did that ending lay it on thick...and then got really weird!

Spoiler
"He was asked by Newsbots about his greatest accomplishment. The answer was SIMPLE, he whispered, replying without a MOMENT'S HESITATION -- 'Defeating THE ALIEN, my boy. What in the world could possibly compare with saving my people from SUPERMAN?' And with a SMILE on his face, Doctor Lex Luthor DIED."

Yeah, that sounds about right.   ^_^
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

Yeah, that ending for him is perfect.  He saves the world, becomes adored hero he always wanted to be...but what REALLY mattered to him was proving that he was better than the alien.  :lol:
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

So, having heard good things about Darkseid War, I made a day of watching through any I had not seen via DC Universe, then watching Darkseid War. I haven't always been a fan of the "DCAMU" but I liked both the Titans movies, and there have been gems and fun moments along the way.

However, personally, I hate this film and everything it stands for.

Spoiler
There are two massive, glaring problems I have with this movie that pretty much sum up why I despise everything about it.

First, man, this is a movie that loves it some killing. Like, it LOVES to showcase beloved heroes being brutally murdered. Jon Stewart? Burned to ash. Starfire? Torn in half, her organs splayed over the battlefield. Cyborg? His head mounted on Darkseid's wall. This is a movie that brings together characters from all across their film universe JUST so we can see them brutally and horribly murdered. And that's just the deaths, Dick Grayson's fate is to be locked in a cell forever because Damian tried to resurrect him with the Lazarus Pit.

Second, and this is what really sticks in my craw... there's no consequences for any of it. After we got past the opening, I was expecting the endgame to be them going back in time and warning their past selves about the failed offensive that kicked things off. But no, after stopping Darkseid but with the earth a razor's edge away from being destroyed anyway, the film ends with John Constantine looking at Barry Allen and saying "Yeah, we need a full Flashpoint-esque do-over. Anything's better than this."

That... offends me. Again, I'm not the biggest fan of all of the creative choices of this series, but there was a lot of good too. The Titans movies were both really good. The Superman movies adapted some pretty awful comics into decent, narratively cohesive films (which aren't perfect but they are leagues better than the source material). I think most of us were super frustrated by the N52 that spawned this series, but when DC decided to fix the N52, they didn't just wipe it all away. Even when the time came for Doomsday Clock to reboot things back, it didn't do that by spitting in the face of what came before: Rather, it acknowledged the good of the past and set the stage for future stories. This movie, by contrast, says that whatever characters and stories you liked from nearly a decade's worth of films? They're all garbage and none of it matters because we just rebooted it out of existence.

Here's the thing: the fact that Damian and Raven got together at the end, the fact that X, Y and Z survived... I ultimately don't care because they no longer exist. Now, we've had stories like this before, the horrible future that is undone by time travel in the end. But there's usually weight behind those events because we see either characters from this future who know the change will cost them (AoA Storm and Wolverine from the X-men cartoon come to mind) or who make the sacrifice in the story so that the time travel can happen. Getting Flash back so he can travel back in time isn't the endgame here: we barely see Flash the entire film. Most of the "current" deaths happen so they can seal away Darkseid, which they manage to do. Constantine instigates Barry's reboot at the end at no cost, and there's no sense that anything of value would be lost in rebooting everything... and that's simply not true.

BentonGrey

Interesting, 'Mato.  I have no love or affection for those movies, really, and you know my feelings on blank-slatting things.  Of course, that only works if you're prepared to fix the problems that messed things up in the first place, which I've got no reason to assume that they are.  Of course, the only movies of that bunch I've seen have been actively bad or tremendously flawed.  I did see a bit of Death of Superman, which didn't look too bad, but not enough to have a real opinion.  Throne of Atlantis was a real mess.  :P
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Silver Shocker

#306
[SS sees the "SS Signal" in the sky, does the Micheal Keaton pose]

Watched Red Son. Not too bad, but one of many instances of the book being better.

It's a middle ground between super-faithful DC adaptations (Year One, DKR) and loose adaptations (pretty much everything else they've done). Some scenes, like Superman's confrontation with Batman and the dance with WW, are almost identical. While other stuff is completely different.

Spoiler
One of the biggest changes is the absense of Pete Ross (or rather, Pyotr Roslov). I knew that would make a big difference, but I didn't realize quite how much. Instead of Pyotr poisoning Stalin, Superman disintegrates him with his heat vision (which, naturally, makes Red Son Superman seem much more villainous), and Batman doesn't team up with Pyotr, making his final scene carry much less weight. WW is now implied to be full lesbian, and no longer has an attraction to Superman, and now hates and distrusts men, which would have been fine, except she talks about it in literally every scene she's in, which gets repetitive and old. Brainiac (who's voiced by Paul Williams, the voice of Penguin from Batman TAS, which was neat to hear) also destroys the bottled city of Stalingrad, which is swapped out for the letter. Lana has a slightly larger role, and most notably, a LOT of Lex's material is either changed or removed. His opening scene is taken out, and the ending is changed entirely so Lex resigns from his presidenancy and retires with Lois, who he reconciles with.

My favorite part of the film, by far, though was the cameo by John Stewart as a member of the GL army that fights Superman. He yells "LIGHT EM UP!" while voiced once again by Phill Lemarr, a deliberate callback to the assualt on Amazo from JLU.

On to...sigh...On to Justice League Dark: Apokalypse War (long title). Well, Tomato, if it makes you feel any better.....I hated it too.  :(

Well, Zack Sydner's Justice League came out early. I mean, I see DC finally made an animated movie of Future's End...I mean, I see DC's still ripping off Marvel by ripping off Endgame again...I could go on all day.

Well on the plus side, Matt Ryan as John Contantine is as excellent as ever. It's bizarre that he gets top billing in the big finale to the DC Animated Movie universe (apparently it starring Constantine and Raven makes it "Justice League Dark"), but oh well. I was also happy to see Damien and Raven again, and Lady Shiva popping up was neat.

And the "Fight Club" sequence is pretty much the best scene in the movie. 

In general, if you've seen all the other movies in this set (as I have), it is kinda neat to see all these different characters pop up again. Like IW/Endgame. Of course, not nearly as good, but oh well.

On the other hand...well, this is the most R-Rated DC movie that ever R-Rated. The violence in this movie is very gratiuitious, and we even have Raven of all people delivering an F-Bomb. That was surprising.

Spoiler
More specifically, seeing the Justice League violently torn apart with God Of War-level blood is the height of vulgarity, it really did remind me, and I must imagine many others, of Future's End.

Past that, this movie is such a rippoff of Infinity War and Endgame it's almost plagiarism. I mean, it also seems to be heavily inspired by Snyder's original script for Justice League (which WB rejected for being "too scary"), but it's basically "Hey, what if Endgame, but R-rated, and also the entirely of IW happens in the opening five minutes?".

Oh also, Etrigan rips off Thor saying "I like this one". They even make it a running gag for him.

[writing this as I watch] ....did I just see Starfire's entrails? Great Caesar's Ghost....

On the other hand, Nice to see Harley Quinn looking like classic HQ, and John Constantine arguing with Captain Boomerang is pretty classic. And it's always nice to hear Hynden Walsh voicing Harley again, I've always liked her as HQ. The character herself gets annoying in spots, but I always thought HQ was annoying in heavy doses.

"King Shark is a shark." He certainly is. I read Secret Six, I remember this joke. Would have been nice if they didn't run it into the ground. Also, Amanda Waller dying offscreen from cancer being made into a joke at Harley's expense...didn't love that. This part of the movie would have been a bit better if Waller showed up for it.

Captain Boomerang trying to sneak a stolen truck into a base while the inside is covered in blood....that's pretty funny in a dark humor way.

Funny thing, I just finished watching the Cadmus arc of JLU on televised reruns...and now I'm imagining this whole storyline as an arc of JLU and...yeah, it would be a lot better that way.

[Lady Shiva gets shot in the head violently onscreen.] Sigh....why isn't this movie better? It's like watching Reign of the Supermen all over again. Which is appropriate considering this movie is pretty much a direct followup to it.

[sees John Stewart reduced to a skeleton] You know what, I don't even care anymore.

[Sees Cyborg JL] Ok, now it actually IS Future's End. The guy from Shortpack would love this movie.

[Sees Etrigan give a speech before he dies] Hurry up and die so this thing can wrap up.

[Watching Suicide Squad fight army of Doomsday] I think someone involved in the movie loves the Suicide Squad. Or it was a studio mandate. Either way I must say Boomer one-shotting multiple Doomsdays and Bane getting violently eaten to death and I'm just like "Ok, whatever". Why isn't this movie better?

[Evil Cyborg shows up] I like that he sounds like a mix of Darth Vader and Soundwave. I'll take what I can get at this point. That John Constantine though.

[Batman doesn't kill Damien because it reminds him of his parents being killed] WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!!! Yep, I couldn't help but by reminded of that.

[Damien is horribly murdered] Oh, screw off. I shouldn't even be angry about that, since it happened in the comics, but this movie just isn't earning anything. How is this thing LONGER than Endgame when it's only a hour and half long?

[Lex Luthor is horribly murdered] [long drawn out sigh/groan] [Jon Constantine is horribly murdered] [""]

[Superman pretty much goes Super Saiyan] *yawn* there's so many other, better things I could be doing right now.

[Raven cradles Damien's dying body and tells him she loves him] WHY ISN'T THIS MOVIE BETTER?!!!

[Superman is still fighting Darkseid] Man, Doom Patrol S2 can't get here soon enough.

[Trigon shows up and fights Doomsday [EDIT: I mean Darkseid]] How the hell are the Teen Titans Go movies more entertaining than this? HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

[Raven says "Goodbye, Father" to Trigon] WHY WON'T THIS MOVIE END? You're just going to Flashpoint it all away anyways, you telegraph every twist at least 20 minutes in advance, none of this junk matters, why won't this movie end?

[Contantine: You know what you have to do Mate. Flash: Flashpoint. I promised Iris I wouldn't....not again.] Don't make me think of your much better CW counterpart Barry. Even he'd Flashpoint this and he learned the hard way to stop changing the timeline.

[Barry runs off, music swells, Raven and Damien kiss] [SS cries in fetal position] Whyisn'tthemoviebetter?  :wacko:

[Hard cut to credits, plays the sad, solemn music because it worked for Infinity War, no post credit scene, we don't even see the new timeline] ....Bullocks.

Oh, yeah, and before I forget... the animation is oddly cheap in certain spots. And some of the voice actors seem oddly off their game. I think they'd had too much time between movies.

So yeah, in summation (the movie's kinda boring for a lot of its running time which makes it easy to write a review during it) this is the DC animated movie universe going out with a wimper (much like Dark Phoenix) and I'm mildly dissapointed, especially since I too heard good things about this thing online for a few weeks. This movie is an shining example of how not to Endgame, how not to Geoff Johns, and with a few tweaks to the script, could easily work as a PARODY of modern day DC. It's a shame, because I was looking forward to this thing ever since I first heard of it, and theorically I should have loved it (again, like Reign of the Supermen). But it's just too much, I can't even. It has the exact same problem as Reign of the Superman. All the stuff that should get a big impact and payoff (there is SO much payoff in this movie, I should absolutely love it, and yet I don't) just falls flat or feels like they're trying too hard. I said it back when Reign came out, I've said it about DC movies and shows for years, and I say it now: they need better writing. Another problem the movie has is every single twist or big reveal in the movie is completely predictable. Batman being an evil Metron, Lex being "ZE SPY!" "I knew it!" "No you didn't!", Raven letting Trigon loose, the other characters learning Flash caused Flashpoint.

This is a perfect time for me to once again reiterate: Dark is not good. Good is good.

While we're on the topic of the DCAU animated movies in general, I wrote a review of Justice League vs the Fatal Five back when it came out, but didn't end up posting it. That was a pretty fun movie.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Tomato

What floors me SS, is that you bring him up... but this was likely written alongside Doomsday Clock, written by Geoff Johns, who arguably told this exact story (dark future that's supposedly the ultimate result of the changes post-flashpoint) in a way that didn't make me so vehemently angry... heck, I actuallly LIKED Doomsday Clock in the end. I don't think it's as good as it thinks it is, but ultimately it's purpose is to restore the DCU to a better place without invalidating what came before. And that book also had a perfectly suitable dark future that we need to correct, without the need for constant mindless, gory deaths.

It almost feels like things should be reversed, with the needlessly gory Darkseid War being the child of semi-edgelord Geoff Johns, and Doomsday Clock the story by the animation studio trying to tone things down a bit for kids. But this movie is just ALL IN on the Edgelord, while you have Geoff Johns seemingly trying to restore the history and fun he helped take away.

Silver Shocker

#308
I actually am a bit of an outcast in that I really enjoyed Doomsday Clock...the reason I brought up Johns is, because, for all his love of violence and limbs being torn off, he fairly consistently has the writing chops to make up for it. This, for whatever reason, does not. I did check the credits for this thing, the writer is Mairghread Scott, who's got a pretty extensive resume writing for children's entertainment (such as TF and the GotG cartoon), she's fairly reliable, which makes it all the more disappointing that this thing isn't better. If I read on Tvtropes later that this thing was heavily mandated by the higher-ups, I'd believe it though [EDIT: I did, and it was] - it's a roadmap of almost everything wrong with modern DC (well, not quite - the Joker makes no appearance whatsover in it, but for whatever reason Joker was not a major character in this set of movies).

The thing that actively makes me angry about this thing, is that there are so many moments of payoff in this thing, that in a better or different movie in this set, would be so much more satisfying. All of the stuff with Raven and Damien should have been really impactful and enjoyable, except it's in this, a movie where nothing matters and nothing lands.

You, know, just this morning I was remembering the short-lived cartoon "Beware the Batman" and was wondering why DC has struggled so much to make a decent, long-lasting Batman animated show lately. And now I'm kind of reminded why. DC always seems to be in a weird place, and their animated movies are a great example of that.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

catwhowalksbyhimself

Apparently in the ongoing DC fandome event, it was confirmed that the crossover with the TV series is canon to the movies and is how the movies Flash takes the name Flash.

Which is cool.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

GhostMachine

Meh. I don't like the movie Flash at all. He's supposed to be getting a new costume, which is good. (The armor is ugly) But the character's personality comes off as a hyper, dumber version of the Tom Holland Spider-Man.

BentonGrey

Yeah, he was such a transparent attempt to copy the popularity of Holland's Spidey that it was painful to watch.  Like pretty much everything DC did to that point, it was an example of aping something successful with no regard for what they were adapting and no understanding of what had made their source successful in the first place.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

GhostMachine

I look at it this way...

DC = Better tv shows, not counting AGENTS OF SH.I.E.L.D.

Marvel = Better movies. Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the only DCEU movies I'd put on par with the Marvel ones.

The people running the DC movies just do not get most of the characters. Batman and Superman do not kill. Lex Luthor was more Joker than Luthor, and should not have had hair. Flash is a putz who they could kill off and I honestly wouldn't care.


Silver Shocker

I actually never thought of the Tom Holland Spider-Man comparison until you guys pointed it out.  I just viewed it as a way for them to add more levity and humor into the franchise at that point and have different personalities to bounce off each other.

QuoteMarvel = Better movies. Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the only DCEU movies I'd put on par with the Marvel ones.

Shazam was my favorite.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

SickAlice

I got to agree on movie Flash. I won't say I hated it or anything but the character is pretty 2 dimensional. I blame it on what I'll call The Cram, which would be WB not getting on developing the individual characters early enough much less settling on an established cannon early enough either thus the character being crammed in as a supporting cast to the more well known to worldwide viewers characters and less standing alone. Hence a trope character that played off and up the established character types and their own development. I suppose what's done is done though.

On Shazam I appreciated that the heroes are foster children. I think it's great that they gave rl foster kids and now grown ones something to connect with and something for other kids to connect with them.

BentonGrey

Hilariously, Justice League: TAS had more personality and depth to their characters (as flat as they started out) after their first 30 minute episode than the DC film did after three freaking hours.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

SickAlice

Reluctantly I got to agree there too. I won't say I hated it, I didn't though bias where anything with comic characters or video game ones automatically has an appeal to me. But I couldn't find myself involved is the term I think. Noted they made a press release about the issue beforehand and that they were racing to reinvent it having felt the same when they looked at their own product. Visual effects were up I'll give it that, WB seems good there. Aquaman if nothing else hit that one out of the park imo. But heart and character depth tends to be lacking. Shazam had heart which goes a long way, that is where Disney/Marvel projects really succeed I think as well being a genuinely fun experience. Joker I think can naturally have been said to be involving as well carry it's weight in layering the characters albeit disturbing as it is. Though WB does acknowledge and get it at least. I can only move to that they didn't get on this early enough. Historically WB isn't known for taking gambles, they stick with what already sells and what's comfortable and in the DC case that would be Batman and Superman. And when something doesn't pay off, Green Lantern for example, they tend to abandon it instead of giving it another try and trying to make something more substantial. Marvel has impressed me as being the opposite and it paid of for them, starting back with the surprise hit of Blade going forward and creating that character and franchise growth with worldwide households patiently over the years regardless of flops and hurdles. I hope going forward the mistakes they've made and seeing the model of their competitors causes a big shift in the way they approach their live action ventures because really I want to see it and I want to be so blown away I can't stop talking about what they do. I want to see Lobo movie for one example that the world loves Lobo and can't shut up about it and kids wear Lobo Halloween masks because he's their new favorite. I want to see a Superman movie that wins several awards. And so on and I know I'm not alone. It's not a matter of dissing because again I like all this stuff regardless of what it is but I want to see better for it too.
 

Tomato

#317
Aquaman was fine, but it had a few problems, though I do think further sequels would have to deal with less. It borrowed a lot from the N52 series, which for all its faults did at least try to do right by Aquaman. I watched it on a plane months later, and I have a lot of things to say about it (I may not be AS big a fan as Benton, but I do have a lot of affection for the character), but I'll keep that in tags so this post doesn't get bogged down.

Spoiler
So the biggest issue the movie had to deal with was developing this giant gag character from Justice League into a likeable protagonist that was mentally capable of ruling a kingdom. They did a decent enough job of it, but I feel like a sequel will do the job better now that they won't have to deal with that baggage.

One thing still bothers me though... and it revolves around the ugly specter of diversity. And look, I know I have a reputation for being the guy who argues for diversity in the supporting cast, and I'm not exactly the most diplomatic sometimes when I get heated... but the reason I push so hard is actually, in part, because of Aquaman. My hair is fairly dark now, but when I was little I was blonde. As a result, I attached myself, sometimes irrationally, to superheroes in 90s cartoons who were also blonde (Hank Pym, Scarlet Spider, Aquaman) because I was able to see myself within those characters in a way I couldn't with Black haired Batman, redhead Wally Flash, or brunette Peter Parker. Now I make *no* pretense at being put upon for the "lack" or blonde haired white people in media, but it does give me insight now into how important diversity can be, because every child deserves to have a hero they can relate to in that way.

However, because of that I have a bit of a complicated relationship with Momoa's Aquaman. When pictures of him first hit the net, I was still firmly in the "denial" phase of dealing with the Snyderverse... I wanted to believe that the issues I had with MoS were going to be subverted in sequels, that there was this grand plan to build Superman into the hero he should be (that his failure with Zod was what molded him into a hero that would NEVER take a life again, rather than step one in his murder spree) but that BvS Aquaman poster really put a huge dent in that faith. I don't really dislike 90s Aquaman as much as Benton does (probably because I experienced the origin of the hook hand through the DCAU and through wikis/bios rather than having to read the actual comics) but I much prefer his orange/green look, as I feel it sets him apart from other comic heroes. And, though I hate to admit it, a small selfish part of me was upset that they were changing one of *my* heroes.

But... I gave it a chance. Snyder's reasoning that Atlantis was an island nation, and would have been inhabited by islanders before it sank, so casting Polynesian actors for Atlanteans just made sense to him. And... yeah, ok, sure. The reasoning is a little half-baked (I tend to fall into the camp that thinks they'd be Minoan), but it's more than we get for most diversity castings. And hey, this means we get a progressive Atlantis that'll be up there with Wakanda in being a technologically advanced civilization not built by white people, and that wound up making Marvel a ton of money.

Except... no, Atlantis is all white people, with stupid hairbuns that somehow make them look even MORE dorky than they ever did in the comics. And I get it, it's hard to find a full cast of Polynesian actors who have the experience to hold up a major motion picture, much less sell it to a studio that's got a track record of "safe" decisions that have led it to spiral the drain in films thus far. But like... at LEAST have variety in your extras. There's like 10 factions of Atlanteans in the movie, including several varieties of fish people. You don't need to explain why there are darker skinned people in Atlantis.

Now, you might say this doesn't matter, it's not an issue in the comics. The problem is, in the comics, Aquaman is also white. He's seen as an outsider due to his surface dweller father, and due to his "unnatural" blonde hair. In the DCEU, he's an outsider due to his dark skinned father, and due to his own dark skin. Now, the subtext of discrimination was always there in subtext, but it's easier to hand wave for the audience because it's a silly made up superstition... much like Star Trek's infamous half black half white scene. Now, you could argue that by making it more of a "real" discrimination, it makes it more visceral for the audience... but the movie never DOES anything with that fact. Aside from Orm, whose issue seems to be more mommy issues than anything else, we don't really see Arthur discriminated against in any way. Mera sees him as the rightful heir, and Volko is loyal to Arthur no question. We don't really see anyone else display even casual racism toward Arthur at any point.

And that, I think, is my biggest issue. You want to make Atlantis quasi-Polynesian, cool, there's all kinds of ways to be creative with that and give us something we've never seen before. You want to have Atlantis be white, but leave Arthur Polynesian to give the audience a more realistic feeling of Arthur's discrimination? Cool, do something with that. Have the Atlanteans/other tribes question his suitability to rule when he's "Half-surface" a "half breed" or whatever. Now, ya'll know I'm pro diversity, but if you're gonna make a big deal out of it, THAN DO SOMETHING WITH IT. It bothers me far, FAR more to see all that potential go to waste than anything Snyder did to the character (because hey, at least Wan course corrected that idiocy).

As for the others... WW was decent enough, but I've said before that the only movie I really, honestly like so far in the DCEU is Shazam, and I knew I would from the moment it was announced. Even before they officially split off Black Adam, around the time BvS was gearing up IIRC, it was announced that Shazam was being put together by a completely different studio, and the people in charge of the project flatly said that they wanted Shazam to be a fun movie. I'm hopeful for some of the others (SS2, if nothing else, will now act as my giant finger to anyone who complains Wolverine/Hawkeye's mask isn't "realistic" enough for the movies) but every time the snyder cut comes up I get flashbacks to the awful.

SickAlice

I'm glad you two liked Shazam. I got a flack for admitting it on FB. Thing I explained there is my background is theater. I grew up with opera and such and then pursued it myself. So when I watch movies I'm attentive to the structure. Shazam was a film that didn't interest me from the ads. But to watch it the story structure was intact, the pacing was intact, the character development was as well. The acts held up and were entertaining and they kept it fresh. They pulled off suspension of disbelief against many things that one paper would be absurd in film. And again it had heart. And in WB's case again as this seems to be the trend they managed it without making it crammed. Aquaman my main fault was I felt the pacing was off and again crammed there as well, WW was crammed too and could have been two films separately. Have to concur on your spoilered points as well to at least a degree. Again all of this mind you due to how I absorb a production as well all the above still favored if for no reason than I'm biased and like things having to do with comics.

Silver Shocker

#319
WONDER WOMAN 1984.......

Or as Old Man Luke Skywalker once said "This is not going to go the way you think!"

....I haven't actually seen it. I don't really have time right now. I'll get to it.

HOWEVER, since I don't have a strong attachment to the WW IP, I went ahead and read extensive spoilers for the flick....and then double checked because 1. I was rather sleep-deprived at the time and didn't entirely understand what I read and 2. I wasn't convinced I didn't dream it because the plot of this movie is much stranger and more imaginative than I was expecting.

I will say, from the descriptions I read, the plot of this, high-concept that it is, sounds rather appropriate for a WW story.

I thought I had pegged what they were going to do for Maxwell Lord in this film. Apparently I was not even close.

The film also features a post-credit scene, and while I've not seen the scene myself, from the description, it's great, and gets a thumbs up from me!  :thumbup:

Thing is, it's still technically 2020 and I've been joking almost all year that the response to ANY new movie being realized is "OMG NEW MOVIE!", but this thing's plot could be absolutely wretched and it'd still be worth watching because Gal Gadot's just so darn charming and her and Chris Pine's Steve Trevor are such a cute couple.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

The summary makes it seem kinda bloated...and it seems the reviews agree. 😐
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

I assumed the movie, based on all of the marketing, would be a light and fluffy 80's nostalgia fest featuring far more down to earth "mortal" villains after the first film used Ares, but apparently they felt that a WW sequel should have more magical fantasy elements since that's a big part of what sets Diana apart from her peers. I can respect that.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

Sounds surprisingly promising.  The trailers looked fun.  I won't be seeing it any time soon, but I'm glad it exists.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Silver Shocker

#323
Before I forget: Bob Odenkirk (Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul, who used to be my avatar pic) should have been Max Lord.
Search your feelings, you know that be true.
Can't blame them for using Pedro Pascal, he's kinda the man, but Saul basically IS the original Giffen/DeMatteis version of Max Lord.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Well the movie was...whatever...if you don't think about it too hard.

Minor spoiler,but when Not-Reagan get his wish,he wishes for more nukes. What a waste of a wish...like, wouldn't he want to destroy communism or bring Bonzo back to life?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Without having the film myself....
...that's a good question, but I think that might file under "contrivances for the sake of a theme".
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

HarryTrotter

Quote from: Silver Shocker on December 30, 2020, 01:31:51 PM
Without having the film myself....
...that's a good question, but I think that might file under "contrivances for the sake of a theme".
That's pretty much the whole movie. How can Steve pilot a modern plane? Did Diana Prince work at the same place for the last 80 years? This isn't even handwaved,really.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Silver Shocker

Say it with me:
"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."
Also, Lex and Senator Finch from Batman V Superman apparently forgot about the Cheetah woman who was sighted jumping all over the place in 1984.
Sadly, while this flick did go on the on-demand this week, it's $30 dollars, Mulan-style. I'm not paying 30 bucks to rent any film, so I won't be seeing this for at least a few months.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

$30 to rent?  That's insane!
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

stumpy

It's always odd to see movie producing companies decrying piracy and then taking actions that they cannot fail to understand will increase piracy. But, it was perhaps a good time to take advantage of the free trial of HBOMax, even with the insincere feeling that "there is no way I am keeping this past the trial period."

What follows is mostly non-spoilery. But, I do hint at the general plot a bit.

Spoiler
I enjoyed WW84, somewhat. It wasn't exactly bad. Max Lord was well conceived and acted as a villain who wasn't a mustache twirler. The plot was pretty credible. Good use was made of the mid-80s as a time when the threat of nuclear war might have been realistically exacerbated by politicians' ill-made wishes. The reappearance of Steve Trevor was pretty organic to the plot and actually worthwhile in terms of Diana's character arc.

But, the movie missed so many opportunities. For one thing... 1980s music!!! How could this movie fail to have a soundtrack that was anything less than - say it with me - awesome?!? But, it did. Second, the headlining feline villain was an utter waste. She could have been trimmed from the movie and nothing would have been lost. WW could have had a couple extra fight scenes with random robots and the movie wouldn't have lost anything. And, the interactions between Gadot and Wigg were largely cringe-worthy. (That's no slam on either actor, just that the characters' interaction was a little hard to watch.) And, as an official old fart, I recall fanny packs actually being popular for about 30 seconds in the 80s. They were around (and still are). But, the idea that they were some sort of iconic article of 80s fashion...? Meh. BTW, the parachute pants bit was funny. But, it was also in the trailer, so no credit for that.

Anyway, if the option to watch the movie at a reasonable price was available (e.g. $7.99 on Prime or something), then sure, why not? $30? Nope. Especially considering that this isn't a time when people will be having viewing parties and watching with a dozen friends.
Courage is knowing it might hurt, and doing it anyway. Stupidity is the same. And that's why life is hard. - Jeremy Goldberg