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Author Topic: Into the Bronze Age  (Read 28318 times)

Offline spydermann93

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #420 on: January 23, 2018, 12:27:54 AM »
YAY!!!

Offline daglob

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #421 on: January 23, 2018, 01:58:41 AM »
Quit teasing and get writing!

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #422 on: January 23, 2018, 03:03:02 AM »
DG, Benton is all about the tease. Tease here, tease there...and sooner or latter you forget that he hasn't done anything but tease. ;-)
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #423 on: January 24, 2018, 06:04:17 AM »
Haha!  Who's a tease?
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/01/23/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-3/

Check it out guys!  The notorious drug issue of GL/GA, as well as some other solid comics.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #424 on: January 24, 2018, 08:43:00 AM »
Some ten years later Roy Thomas wrote a JLA/All Star Squadron/JSA crossover.Imagine how hard was that.Thou,he had 6 issues to work with.
After the last few years of every hack showing their personal politics down the readers throath,GL/GA doesnt look so heavy handed.Hindsight,I guess.Speaking if which,Flash dying and Supercrisis,thats going to be funny in 15 years.
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Offline daglob

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #425 on: January 24, 2018, 04:40:26 PM »
That issue of The Flash reminds me of the time the angel (no relation) showed up and made Flash re-do his origin... to balance the cosmic ledger or something.

No, no, believe me... there were some good stories in The Silver Age.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #426 on: January 24, 2018, 04:57:09 PM »
Yeah HT, yeah, these events keep growing.  In just nine issues, Len Wein will add the Seven Soldiers of Victory to the usual JLA/JSA mix.  Though, I expect he's more capable of dealing with the extra load, as I think Wein is a naturally better writer than Friedrich. 

You know, this issue (and this run) certainly paved the way for preachiness in comics as well as greater maturity.  Like I said, it changed the medium for both better and worse!

Haha, DG, you mean this one? 
https://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-the-flash-got-his-powers-from-an-imp-from-another-dimension/
I'll never forget that story.  What a weird comic!  How wildly unnecessary!  Unfortunately, the Flash suffered from a few of these ridiculously unnecessary retcons, like when Iris suddenly discovers she's from the future...for some reason.
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Offline daglob

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #427 on: January 24, 2018, 07:58:34 PM »
Yeah... that's the one. Hey, wait a minute... imp from another dimension? I don't think Mopee returned to his home plane by saying "Eepom", did he?

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #428 on: January 25, 2018, 10:44:37 PM »
Depending on who you ask,either this GA/GL issue or Death of Gwen Stacy are considered as beginings of Bronze Age.Which probably says a lot more then I could.
On the other hand,nobody ever planed to deal with the fallout.And that remained a black spot for some 40 years.Actually,one of the few good things N52 did was to retcon Roy into a former alcoholic.IMO that worked better for the character.
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Offline daglob

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #429 on: January 26, 2018, 02:43:42 AM »
Did they retcon away the dead cat business? I've wondered who greenlit that sequence.

I was reading these comics as they came out. I've said before, you can't really understand the effect things like this had at the time... at least in the comics. Pre-internet, news like this spread at the speed of the US Postal System.

Guys and gals, I have had friends, family, and acquaintances O.D., get arrested, GET KILLED, and go to prison (I mean 25 years REAL time) because of drugs. I lost track of some because they kind of got "into" the drug culture and were never heard of again. I never could figure out why I didn't get into drugs too, other than it scared the umhmm out of me and I would rather spend my money on silly comics like Green Lantern/Green Arrow, Doc Savage reprints, and the occasional date with a girl. I understood a lot of what they had Roy say, because my father "figure" was always too busy to spend much time with me, especially after he left my mother for another woman (one of those tales I could tell). I don't know why it seemed so confusing at the time... did y'all have the same trouble growing up?

Here we have some slightly older men trying to figure out the reasoning behind the actions of some slightly younger men and explain it in a way that their older bosses would at least print... and if it sounds weird to you guys now, it was just as weird then. The simple fact is, no matter what anyone says nowadays about the reasons for the increase of drug abuse throughout the 60s and 70s at the time no one could explain.

Least of all me.

And what alcohol has done is even more complicated.

And often more tragic.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 02:46:07 AM by daglob »

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #430 on: January 26, 2018, 02:48:56 AM »
Oi, leave me booze outta this! <clutches a vodka bottle to himself and whispers to it> It's okay, luv, they not going to put they hands on you...Dj is 'ere for ya...
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #431 on: January 26, 2018, 07:39:53 AM »
I assume that was retconed away.It probably still stands.BTW,Priest shows a flashback of JL with Martian Manhunter as a founding member so I guess Origin wouldnt really be canon.Or it is because everyone had their minds wiped at the time?

Also,there are plenty of reasons why Grells Green Arrow is the only Green Arrow.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #432 on: January 26, 2018, 01:09:47 PM »
BTW,Priest shows a flashback of JL with Martian Manhunter as a founding member

FINALLY.
The Golden Age; 'A different look at a different era.'

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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #433 on: January 26, 2018, 10:56:08 PM »
Which would also mean the JLA has been active for some 20 years,considering The Fan remembers being saved by them when he was a kid and his 20-30 now...But a different topic.

Btw,next year has Superman #257,an issue that doesnt really answer the Krypton/Green Lanterns/Superman thing.Also,Guardians are jerks. 😀
And I remember way too much comic trivia.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #434 on: January 26, 2018, 11:38:00 PM »
So does this mean the League's full history is more or less intact? Or is that just wishful thinking?
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #435 on: January 27, 2018, 07:19:19 AM »
It should be,but writers and editors arent really synchronised at DC.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #436 on: January 27, 2018, 05:04:25 PM »
I always enjoy it when my posts prompt some interesting discussions!

Yeah... that's the one. Hey, wait a minute... imp from another dimension? I don't think Mopee returned to his home plane by saying "Eepom", did he?

Haha, yep, like Aquaman's Qwsp/Quisp, Mopee is another of the dimensional imps that every hero apparently had to have to emulate Superman and Mr. Mxyzptlk.  However, Mopee is, without a doubt, both the weirdest and the lamest. 

So, Batman had Bat-Mite, but did any of the other original Leaguers produce their own imps?

Depending on who you ask,either this GA/GL issue or Death of Gwen Stacy are considered as beginings of Bronze Age.Which probably says a lot more then I could.
On the other hand,nobody ever planed to deal with the fallout.And that remained a black spot for some 40 years.Actually,one of the few good things N52 did was to retcon Roy into a former alcoholic.IMO that worked better for the character.

Those are both good milestones for the darkening of comics, but the things that O'Neil is doing in this issue he had started doing in his JLA run before.  You could honestly say that the Bronze Age begin with Denny O'Neil and not be too far off.  Either way, my little project has shown me that the seeds were planted long before this point.

Did they retcon away the dead cat business? I've wondered who greenlit that sequence.

Dead cat sequence?  (Wow, I just looked that up.  That is everything that is wrong with modern comics in one incredibly skeezy package.  I think I need a shower after reading that recap.)

I was reading these comics as they came out. I've said before, you can't really understand the effect things like this had at the time... at least in the comics. Pre-internet, news like this spread at the speed of the US Postal System.

Guys and gals, I have had friends, family, and acquaintances O.D., get arrested, GET KILLED, and go to prison (I mean 25 years REAL time) because of drugs. I lost track of some because they kind of got "into" the drug culture and were never heard of again. I never could figure out why I didn't get into drugs too, other than it scared the umhmm out of me and I would rather spend my money on silly comics like Green Lantern/Green Arrow, Doc Savage reprints, and the occasional date with a girl. I understood a lot of what they had Roy say, because my father "figure" was always too busy to spend much time with me, especially after he left my mother for another woman (one of those tales I could tell). I don't know why it seemed so confusing at the time... did y'all have the same trouble growing up?

Here we have some slightly older men trying to figure out the reasoning behind the actions of some slightly younger men and explain it in a way that their older bosses would at least print... and if it sounds weird to you guys now, it was just as weird then. The simple fact is, no matter what anyone says nowadays about the reasons for the increase of drug abuse throughout the 60s and 70s at the time no one could explain.

Least of all me.

And what alcohol has done is even more complicated.

And often more tragic.

Great commentary, DG, thanks for sharing your perspective, man.  Yeah, I suppose the emergent drug epidemic and the creeping realization that the promises of 60s counter-culture were empty created a really difficult puzzle to solve.  Clearly it's one we still haven't figured out. 

I think growing up (especially in the post-industrial world) is always difficult, complex, and confusing.  I had a relatively stable childhood, and I still had a hard time of it.  I imagine the person without issues from those years is rare indeed.  In terms of American manhood, well, there's a reason that Fight Club resonated with young men of my generation.  Fatherhood is, I imagine, a very tricky business.  Yet, I imagine that high school and younger is where a lot of those shots go home (I know this was the case for my own story).  I would think that by the time a boy got to college, if he had been given a relatively solid life before that point, the sudden disruption in family life wouldn't have been as traumatic.  After all, that is often part of the normal college experience. 

And attempting to address all of this in comics in 1971 was a very bold move.  We should definitely give O'Neil and Adams credit for that, however rough in places the result might be.

Oi, leave me booze outta this! <clutches a vodka bottle to himself and whispers to it> It's okay, luv, they not going to put they hands on you...Dj is 'ere for ya...

Haha!  You've insulted someone near and dear to DJ, DG.  :lol:


As for Martian Manhunter and the current League...well, as I said at the time, it is a crying shame that DC utterly squandered the potential of the New 52.  They had decades upon decades of wonderful stories to draw on.  They could have started at day 1 and recrafted the history of the League into a coherent whole that dealt with consistent themes and moved towards an established goal.  Instead, we get one poorly told origin and then immediately jump into the future, cutting the throat of their new continuity before they even got started.
God Bless
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Offline daglob

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #437 on: January 27, 2018, 05:35:20 PM »
Like Snyder, they didn't want to do the whole history thing, they wanted to jump to something they were really interested in ("The Death of Superman" and "The Dark Knight Returns"), and leave the rest in tatters.

Of course, the first Conan movie smashed straight through "Tower of the Elephant", bounced off "Red Nails", scraped up against "A Witch Shall Be Born", and crashed in the middle of "Queen of the Black Coast".

Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #438 on: January 27, 2018, 06:17:15 PM »
This just makes me wonder how the MCU could have turned out if they pulled the same thing. Imagine if they started with Ironman and then a year later skipped straight to Avengers. And then moved right to Infinity War a year after that.

I mean, I get wanting to just skip ahead to when things get interesting. Sometimes people want to cut out the fat (as they see it,) and get right to the meat. But in a number of cases, the fat provides flavor and context. Without the fat, all you have is a thin, skinless mess that lacks substance. And it isn't always very appetizing.

This is especially true with comics. One of the things I really like about them is the history. Both Marvel and DC have decades of continuity and countless different titles and characters to their names, and when used right can make them feel that much more alive and in-depth. It can also give some great fuel for stories, and DC Post Crisis is a great example of that. JSA, Starman, Young Justice, Wally!Flash, even Suicide Squad to a lesser extent; all examples of books that use that wealth of history to their advantage and wouldn't have the same weight if they didn't have that well to draw from. (And I'm sure I've only scratched the surface.) But stripping that away does nothing but make it all that much more hollow.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 07:23:32 PM by kkhohoho »
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #439 on: January 27, 2018, 07:18:34 PM »
Well gents, as you continue discussing, why not enjoy some more Bronze Age goodness!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/01/27/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-4/

DG, true, but the Conan movie actually created a great whole out of all of those pieces, crafting something that is, in some ways, more than the sum of its parts.  Add to that the fact that Conan's stories were largely episodic, with the character changing little between them, and the movie version, though a departure from the character, at least aims at something complete and significant.

Kk, you're absolutely right. This is part of what makes American superhero comics special.  This is the only metatext in human history (that we know of), which is a collected narrative over millions of pages, authored by hundreds of writers, illustrated by hundreds of artists, and composed over decades of time, yet all explicitly connected into a single, (supposedly) self-consistent universe.  The only things that comes remotely close are the myth or romance cycles that spring up around popular heroes like King Arthur, but even they are nowhere near as vast nor as intentionally self-consistent.  There is an unparalleled depth and texture to such a text. that is lost when you strip out history and only gesture at it.

Having the various characters share a universe and a history makes for a metatext that has more potential narrative power than the unconnected serial form, and I think that is born out by all of our own experiences with comics. There’s a reason we love DC or Marvel, and a large part of that has to do with the feeling of a universe created by continuity. The emotions that move us during our reading of comicsareshaped by what has come before, both within and without a particular book.
God Bless
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #440 on: January 27, 2018, 07:49:32 PM »
Well gents, as you continue discussing, why not enjoy some more Bronze Age goodness!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/01/27/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-4/

DG, true, but the Conan movie actually created a great whole out of all of those pieces, crafting something that is, in some ways, more than the sum of its parts.  Add to that the fact that Conan's stories were largely episodic, with the character changing little between them, and the movie version, though a departure from the character, at least aims at something complete and significant.

Kk, you're absolutely right. This is part of what makes American superhero comics special.  This is the only metatext in human history (that we know of), which is a collected narrative over millions of pages, authored by hundreds of writers, illustrated by hundreds of artists, and composed over decades of time, yet all explicitly connected into a single, (supposedly) self-consistent universe.  The only things that comes remotely close are the myth or romance cycles that spring up around popular heroes like King Arthur, but even they are nowhere near as vast nor as intentionally self-consistent.  There is an unparalleled depth and texture to such a text. that is lost when you strip out history and only gesture at it.

Having the various characters share a universe and a history makes for a metatext that has more potential narrative power than the unconnected serial form, and I think that is born out by all of our own experiences with comics. There’s a reason we love DC or Marvel, and a large part of that has to do with the feeling of a universe created by continuity. The emotions that move us during our reading of comicsareshaped by what has come before, both within and without a particular book.

Comic books are our mythology, or at least one of ours. Even more so than just King Arthur, they're for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a vast cosmological tapestry created by a collective mass of people over a long period of time; one that changes and shifts and grows with the people that tell it. Even the beginnings of both Marvel and DC in the Golden Age are equivalent to such a mythos; the early incarnations of these characters and stories before everyone started to hammer out the fine details and the more defining aspects of the universe and its' inhabitants got added into the cosmology. The big difference is that comics don't actually represent a belief system, (and if they do for someone, they should probably get themselves committed,) but they still do the next best thing. At their best, they inspire and instil certain values and beliefs within those who read them. Heroism, nobility, kindness, integrity, and more. Even if Superman isn't our Lord and Savior, he's still a bastion of morality and hope that inspires people to this day. Other heroes represent different values. Batman: Commitment and dedication. Wonder Woman: Peace, equality, and truth. Iron Man: The positive side of tech. Spiderman: With great power comes great responsibility. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

On top of that, both Marvel and DC are glorified hodgepodges, DC especially. Much like certain actual mythologies. Many of them started out as a disparate series of smaller religions before being absorbed and combined into larger ones, and Marvel and DC are no exception. Both companies have absorbed smaller ones into their framework, and while Marvel isn't as bad at this (though the Ultraverse still says high,) I'd say DC has at least seven other universes as part of its' makeup.* But better still, they've also absorbed actual mythologies. DC has the Greeks as a notable part of its' universe and Marvel has the Norse, and they still have a number of other mythologies in their verses besides. Both of them have taken bits and pieces from other originally separate works and grafted them onto themselves, creating something more grand and complex than either otherwise would have been. Which is mythology in a nutshell.

*For the record, DC has currently assimilated into its' little collective: Fawcett, Quality, Charlton, Milestone, Wildstorm, America's Best Comics, and Nedor by proxy. (Nedor's technically public domain, but they're also part of ABC, so they still count.)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 09:38:35 PM by kkhohoho »
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Offline daglob

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #441 on: January 27, 2018, 08:07:55 PM »
Also, originally there were All American Comics, Detective Comics, whatever company put out Superman and Action, and National, although they may have been "separate" for tax purposes or something. And I know that All Flash had some kind of weird copyright on it too (packager maybe?). The companies were "different", but kept swapping characters around until when I grew up the symbol said:

SUPERMAN

  DC

National

EC was absorbed and remained separate, and I remember that American Comics Group was some kind of sister company to DC, but it is pretty much forgotten except by old fogies like me.

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #442 on: January 27, 2018, 09:13:06 PM »
Very well said, and very true, Kk.  There's a reason they are described as a modern mythology, and you capture their importance well.  This also means that there is more at stake with these silly comic stories than might meet the eye.
God Bless
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #443 on: January 27, 2018, 11:00:23 PM »
Again,just to toss out a few unrelated thoughts.
Legacy of Fourth World is a bit odd.Outside of Darkseid (blame Great Darkness Saga),everyone else falls into a grey not-entirely-forgotten zone.And sometimes serve as a supporting cast for Superman.And again oddly enough,nobody managed to add anything to it.Remember Sleeze or Takion?Ofc you dont.Or at least we all try to forget.
Also,Supermans greatest era was the 90's.And no,I dont care that he wore a mullet.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #444 on: January 27, 2018, 11:10:50 PM »
On the topic of N52 Justice League,while the first arc goes big and cinematic and all that; they didnt really follow up on that momentum.You can tell Johns was phoning it in.Or at least,that his heart wasnt in it.
Would it have been better if they took the Ultimate Spiderman approach?Probably.But I guess they wanted something new.
But,lets face it,JL(A) was never a consistent title.You had flashes of greatness in a sea of mediocre.And the last great run for me was McDuffies.And even that had a crossover with Shadow Cabinet.For the record,Shadow Cabinet is my #1 most hated comic.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:14:25 PM by HarryTrotter »
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #445 on: February 02, 2018, 11:52:01 PM »
HT, JLA has been inconsistent, but I feel like you could say that of most titles on this kind of timeline.  It had one of the more consistently great runs in 90s (when there weren't too many of those), after all. 

Well, the 4th World is also represented by Mr. Miracle, Barda, and Orion, who continue to hold a solid second string position in the DCU, despite the obscurity that swallowed the rest of the setting.  I do remember Takion.  What a weird choice, and how very incongruous he looked among the New Gods.

Well folks, it is time to close out August 1971.  Check out the final post on that month:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/02/02/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-5/

God Bless
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #446 on: February 03, 2018, 08:06:57 AM »
Actually,there were quite a few good runs in the 90's.Like I keep saying,it was Supermans greatest era,actually.For what its worth,DC avoided most of the Chromium Age excess.Sure,there were some EXTREME makeovers like Manhunter and Fate,but those were exceptions.Yes,Morrisons JLA was great,but after he left,its a downward spiral that reaches a absolute nadir in Claremont and Byrnes Tenth Circle.

We have an issue that predicted The Happening.And O'Neill doesnt preach about gun control.Weird.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #447 on: February 03, 2018, 03:39:12 PM »
It had one of the more consistently great runs in 90s (when there weren't too many of those)

{twitch}

Ahem. No offense and you probably haven't read most of these, but... Mark Waid's Flash, Niel Gaiman's Sandman, John Ostrander's Spectre and Martian Manhunter, Alan Grant's L.E.G.I.O.N, Giffen and the Buam's Legion, James Robinson's Starman, Geoff John's JSA, Peter David's X-Factor and Hulk, Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts and Avengers,  all of Generation X, most of the Milestone line, much of Valiant, and a hell of a lot more besides all want to say high. Yes, there was a ton of schlock in the 90's, but there was still a wealth of great material if you knew where to look.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #448 on: February 03, 2018, 11:14:41 PM »
Similar to what I said.
Hitman by Ennis,Swamp Thing by Millar,Flash by Morrison and Millar,tail end of Hawkworld,entire triangle era of Superman,Kingdom Come,entire Vertigo line,League of Extraordinary Gentleman(personally,I liked the idea,but not the execution)...good part of Grells Green Arrow...I could go on,but you got the idea.
Its just that internet critics like to drag out Youngbloods or Venom Lethal Protector for some cheap laughs.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 11:22:23 PM by HarryTrotter »
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Into the Bronze Age
« Reply #449 on: February 04, 2018, 12:12:02 AM »
Haha!  Fair enough, Kk.  I didn't mean to make you twitch.  :lol:  I suppose that I just forget about the good stuff amidst all the 90s EXTREME-ness. 
God Bless
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