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Author Topic: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society- One last comment.  (Read 4224 times)

Online daglob

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This started because I like looking at old (and I mean old) skins. I studied Kenn X, Vigilante, Copper Age, Dark Jared, and all the rest. I haunted all the link pages and explored the Freedom Force Web Ring (remember that?). When I found Mad Rabbitís page, I was overjoyed (yeah, yeah, I need to get a life).

Skindex disappeared soon after I started collecting, and I never saw a lot of other sites, like The Hub, Gammapatrol, or FF Underground.

And the situation has only gotten worse.

This present posting is prompted by finding an archive of an old incarnation of NPI that has a lot of working links (as well as a lot of dead ones) to skins and meshes. There are several hundred of these, almost six hundred including a couple of side trails to other archived pages with working links. There are many other archives that do not have any working links; these are gone.

What Iím thinking is, what are we going to do to preserve all this work? Some creators are gone, may have moved on, even a couple of active community members have old pages that they have lost track of. Is there anything we can do?

For instance, I found two version of R.T. Tingleís avatar, regular and something like Age of Volt. No one has permission to post them anyplace for the community to have access (Iím hoping he might drop by for a quick visit and say ďSure, go aheadĒ). The original pulp-themed avatar is quite nice, and the alternate is kinda spooky. I hate that no one can access them without going through the Wayback Machine (although I am glad that these two, at least for now, can be accessed that way)

What I hope we can do is toss ideas around and make a decision. We donít have word from all those who have gone before us, left the community, or passed on. But what can we do? Myself, I have always figured that anything I posted was given to all who wanted it. I would hope that if someone re-posts it, they would be sure I got credit. But if not, I canít really complain, it was a GIFT. Some whom have left the community probably felt the same way. Others might not have.

So, what can we do?

Comments, ideas, plans, criticisms?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 07:27:47 PM by daglob »

Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 04:26:47 AM »
P.S.: This is what happens when you retire and have 'way too much time on your hands.

Offline spydermann93

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Re: Freedom Force Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2016, 04:46:03 AM »
I'm completely on board with this initiative.  Honestly, I've always been of the mind that if I host something for the community to use, then re-posts are fine with me.  Kind of comes as a package deal.  I never really saw the need for somebody to ask me to rehost my stuff, and while credits are nice, I don't really mind if I'm not mentioned.  Of course, it goes with saying that I always credit other authors when using their work.  I'm kinda weird like that :P

Anyways, if there were a file hosting service that somebody knows about, please let the community know.  I used to always use Filefront (now Gamefront), but that site has become pretty unreliable (links go down within a few weeks or so).  Mediafire, at least for me, hosts up to 11GB of files for a FREE user, and the links seem to stay up for a very long time (I still find working links in the Forum Archives every now and then).

If people could start hosting files via Mediafire and posting the links to a shared thread, I think that could do wonders.

Another alternative is Dropbox. Somebody can share a dropbox folder and others can download content from it.  Unless the user pays for an account, it seems to hold less than Mediafire, but the links are also very stable and have a long life-time.

TL;DR: I'm all for rehosting, with credit to the authors, of course. Mediafire and Dropbox seem like the best, most viable options.

Offline Klauser

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2016, 01:32:59 PM »
I have many CD's worth of FF skins/meshes when I was backing up by burning CD's.  I'd me happy to donate copies to any "museum".

Offline detourne_me

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 02:41:51 PM »
This has always interested me, too. Archiving all of the work would be an insane task, though.
Should the files be left as .zips in their compressed and originally released states?
Should they be preserved as a giant characters folder, with every mesh and skin open and accessible by CTool?

Is there a statute of limitations on permissions for rehosting?
In the past the rehosting issue caused huge rifts in the community, even for issues as simple as rehosting through inclusion in mods.

How about the 'black sheep' creators in our community that have made a ton of content, but were either ostracized or all ties were cut from the community?

Personally, I think a torrent would be the most economical and practical solution for sharing and archiving the files. We wouldnt have to worry about size limits like on Mediafire or Dropbox.

However for ease of access, Mediafire would be the best. Creator's content could be organized in folders across dirrent accounts. Kind of a less prohibitive yahoogroups.

In the next couple weeks ill look through my files, see if i have any lost treasures.

Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 06:20:28 PM »
I'm a member of a Yahoo group that posts scans of old magazines, and one of the most used resources is Mediafire. Some links do go missing, and they sometimes get funny about copyright (although while Dr. Octopus might raise a red flag, Male Pudgy Tentacles might not), but by and large it's an excellent system.

I understand they are more careful and picky since Rapidshare was shut down.

Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2016, 03:51:29 AM »
I'm going to keep moving this to the top so everyone can see it.

Offline OrWolvie1

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2016, 04:21:20 AM »
I, too, have been accumulating various meshes, maps, FX's, scopes, keyframes, heads, Mods, etc over the last several years and am willing to share what I can with whomever wants it and would be willing to donate my library as well.

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2016, 04:28:41 AM »
My Library is open to anyone who is interested as well.

Offline OrWolvie1

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2016, 04:35:05 AM »
My Library is open to anyone who is interested as well.

ok. I want your library ;)

Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 03:12:06 PM »
My Library is open to anyone who is interested as well.

ok. I want your library ;)

Don't we all, Wolvie, don't we all.

Although, actually, CB is very generous in sharing his collection.

DeTournme raised these issues:

Quote
Is there a statute of limitations on permissions for rehosting?

In the past the rehosting issue caused huge rifts in the community, even for issues as simple as rehosting through inclusion in mods.

How about the 'black sheep' creators in our community that have made a ton of content, but were either ostracized or all ties were cut from the community?

Personally, I think a torrent would be the most economical and practical solution for sharing and archiving the files. We wouldn't have to worry about size limits like on Mediafire or Dropbox.

However for ease of access, Mediafire would be the best. Creator's content could be organized in folders across different accounts. Kind of a less prohibitive yahoogroups.

IS there a statute of limitation on posting files?

It seems we have people interested in this idea, but what is the best way to preserve the content?

What about those people who are no longer in the community and cannot be reached?

There are people who included something like "if you re-post this or use it in a mod please give me credit" in their readme files; I would think that this means we can preserve their work, since we would be re-posting it.

Is there anyone besides IPS who would absolutely object to their stuff being posted?

How would we post a torrent? What kind of longevity would it have?

Offline OrWolvie1

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 03:30:31 PM »
My Library is open to anyone who is interested as well.

ok. I want your library ;)

Don't we all, Wolvie, don't we all.

Although, actually, CB is very generous in sharing his collection.

DeTournme raised these issues:

Quote
Is there a statute of limitations on permissions for rehosting?

In the past the rehosting issue caused huge rifts in the community, even for issues as simple as rehosting through inclusion in mods.

How about the 'black sheep' creators in our community that have made a ton of content, but were either ostracized or all ties were cut from the community?

Personally, I think a torrent would be the most economical and practical solution for sharing and archiving the files. We wouldn't have to worry about size limits like on Mediafire or Dropbox.

However for ease of access, Mediafire would be the best. Creator's content could be organized in folders across different accounts. Kind of a less prohibitive yahoogroups.

IS there a statute of limitation on posting files?

It seems we have people interested in this idea, but what is the best way to preserve the content?

What about those people who are no longer in the community and cannot be reached?

There are people who included something like "if you re-post this or use it in a mod please give me credit" in their readme files; I would think that this means we can preserve their work, since we would be re-posting it.

Is there anyone besides IPS who would absolutely object to their stuff being posted?

How would we post a torrent? What kind of longevity would it have?

All valid points in my opinion. I would say, in my limited experience with the intricacies of these things, that those who created said meshes/skopes/maps/fx or whatever, if they didn't want them shared with others, then why post them in public domains in the first place? Why not just keep it to themselves? I understand that part of it is for acceptance and appreciation of their peers in the community, but if they cannot be reached for permissions to host them, and as long as their original work isn't modified in any way, or claimed as the work of others, why should they be lost forever, instead of shared and enjoyed by future generations who are perhaps just discovering FF and the community for the first time? And seeing the fine works of those who have come before, perhaps it may inspire some of these people to go on and create fine works of their own? I know, in my own experience, that is part of what made me decide to take the task of trying to create this massive undertaking that I have chosen to partake of, to share with others, some of these works, as well as to try and give back to a community who has given so much of itself to myself and so many others throughout the years.

But, as with anything else, this is just my own opinion.

Offline Amazo Version 2.2

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 06:59:06 PM »
would it matter if the files were in their original zip file as opposed to being repackaged?
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Offline President Raygun

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2016, 12:10:21 AM »
Hey guys, just wanted to add that a few years back I started the process of downloading every file from every available yahoo group I could get into, granted once it became more of a chore the ol' procrastination set in and only got about halfway through, but do have a lot of the multi yahoo group posters (Phantom Stranger, C6, Renegade, KSSaint) all in one simple folder if that's useful to anyone. I've downloaded as much from the old NPI and Gamma Patrol as I could through the Wayback Machine, plus I also have a long, long list of yahoo goups. If anybody's interested just give me a heads up in this thread or pm me. (BTW guys if you are using Firefox and haven't already, you should install the Downthemall extension, really makes downloading files faster)

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2016, 01:15:53 AM »
would it matter if the files were in their original zip file as opposed to being repackaged?

I would say that the original Zip Files would be preferred.

Hey guys, just wanted to add that a few years back I started the process of downloading every file from every available yahoo group I could get into, granted once it became more of a chore the ol' procrastination set in and only got about halfway through, but do have a lot of the multi yahoo group posters (Phantom Stranger, C6, Renegade, KSSaint) all in one simple folder if that's useful to anyone. I've downloaded as much from the old NPI and Gamma Patrol as I could through the Wayback Machine, plus I also have a long, long list of yahoo goups. If anybody's interested just give me a heads up in this thread or pm me. (BTW guys if you are using Firefox and haven't already, you should install the Downthemall extension, really makes downloading files faster)

I would love to add your List of Yahoo Groups to mine, especially since I'm sure you probably have more than I do.  :D

I think it's pretty well known that I have a very strong desire to see the Artwork created by our Community preserved, my only concern here is in respecting our Content Creators. Would they be alright with us publicly posting, hosting, or re-distributing their work? While I know it's been done in the past with the likes of Texas Jack, Vertex, Renegade, Etc., there are past Members whose Work, I'm sorry to say, that I just would not touch.

Personally, I was devastated when FXForce and FRP2 went down, and I'm sure I'll feel the same if the Gryphon's Site ever goes down as well. That being said, where does that leave us now?

Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2016, 01:34:25 AM »
My god, think what would happen if Alex's site ever disappeared. Half the time, if I need a mesh or skin and I know it's there, I go get it from him rather and sift through all these DVDs.

I would say that the best way to preserve them would be to use the original file. I wouldn't be against creating new archives so long as they included the original readme or credit file. We might could start a thread in the Skins forum called "Who Made Me?" for those without documentation.

What about work that is, so far as I can tell, only available through a Mod?

Speaking of Mods, what about them? We have The Mod Graveyard, but how many are no longer available? Do we preserve them also? What about SFX? What about maps? Or should we take this one step at a time?

Offline OrWolvie1

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2016, 04:32:55 AM »
My god, think what would happen if Alex's site ever disappeared. Half the time, if I need a mesh or skin and I know it's there, I go get it from him rather and sift through all these DVDs.

I would say that the best way to preserve them would be to use the original file. I wouldn't be against creating new archives so long as they included the original readme or credit file. We might could start a thread in the Skins forum called "Who Made Me?" for those without documentation.

What about work that is, so far as I can tell, only available through a Mod?

Speaking of Mods, what about them? We have The Mod Graveyard, but how many are no longer available? Do we preserve them also? What about SFX? What about maps? Or should we take this one step at a time?

I would say that we should, over time, try and preserve as much as we can, and yes, that would include Mods, FX, Maps, Scopes and Skins. So much work has been put into both  :ff: and  :ffvstr: over the years by so many people who have either chosen to move on, or been forced to for a variety of reasons. I would like to preserve  all the content that those of us who remain have enjoyed over the years, as well as what kept us entertained all this time, to pass along to those who are coming along, discovering the games for the first time. Every so often I see a new face, who has read a variety of posts regarding this mod, or this mesh or skin that was hosted at a site that is no longer available. What is to keep these people interested in participating, contributing as others have, without examples of what has gone before? Perhaps we'll have a whole new generation of Modders, Skinnners, Map makers. Who knows?

Offline Outcast

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2016, 04:37:59 AM »
Maybe you guys could start a thread (or maybe multiple threads thereafter if needed)listing or showcasing pics/previews (with corresponding names of course) some of these lost/unhosted files you've found. From these threads, people could look and see if they would like any of those files and would simply reply to make any requests. Then you guys could send them what you have. The thread could be stickied to either the request subforum or the Freedom Force subforum page.

For those really lost skins/meshes/skopes. Posting pics could also be a way of preserving their memory. Maybe some of you guys could also try to recreate them? I think even the people dealing with archeology and historical artifacts do try to recreate some of these lost/partial treasures/evidences of the past they've discovered. :P :wacko:
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 04:41:20 AM by Outcast »
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Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2016, 04:48:38 AM »
That's what I've been doing with Copper Age, and the new version of older skins I've been doing for more recent meshes. But most current skinners work on more contemporary subjects. :)

Think what some of the older creators could have done with Nifscope or Blender...

Offline abenavides

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2016, 03:31:53 PM »
Interesting thread.
Happy to help if I can (there's likely stuff on my backup drives I've forgotten about).

Another thought re: storage - MS Onedrive. It's free and I think a share (or a folder in it) can be made public . I need to experiment with a bit more.
Similar to Dropbox.
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Offline Shazam

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2016, 06:02:28 PM »
You say you found an old NPI site? Were there any links to Voltimax's work at all?
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Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2016, 06:49:08 PM »
There was so much stuff I don't remember.

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2016, 08:01:10 PM »
You say you found an old NPI site? Were there any links to Voltimax's work at all?

How far back, approximately, would we need to look for Voltimax? Would it just be NPI, or were there any other sites?

Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2016, 08:09:18 PM »
I found his stuff at NPI; all the links are dead, but they were the same skins that were at his Yahoo group.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2016, 07:53:05 PM »
I guess I'd okay my stuff being resurrected...perhaps...maybe....would def want credit though..and some chowder...where be this chowder you speak of?!?!?!

Offline baley

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2016, 07:11:48 AM »
As a newish member, I would relish the opportunity to play catchup!  :thumbup:

Offline Shazam

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2016, 10:53:11 PM »
I've been away for around 8 years, but before I left, I put alot of stuff onto CD's. I've got a few old FF mods, meshes, skins, fx, keyframes etc.
I think I deleted my yahoo group and that had installers for the original invulnerable attribute grades, toughguy2, bodyaura and other stuff I'd played with and shared involving python coding. I had made a mod that was going to feature on the NPI site. That mod alone had some original custom skins made by previous members/friends here. It's all lost forever now.
Anyway, I'm more than happy to share what I'd aquired over my time here.
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Online daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2016, 12:18:08 AM »
Somebody get that man a Yahoo Group or Mediafire Account or something!

Offline OrWolvie1

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2016, 02:00:51 AM »
Somebody get that man a Yahoo Group or Mediafire Account or something!

Agreed. Looking back over the years, there was so much created, so much talent that has since moved on, for one reason or another. I guess my question in all this would have to be, for those of us who remain, and those who come after, should we let all that great work fade into obscurity? Or should we, as loyal, respectful members of the community, preserve that which has come before, perhaps as a beacon to those who come after, as a guide of what can be achieved, a spark to those with the talent to create even more? OR do we let it all go, and watch as the game, it's vast potential, and the creative potential be lost forever?

I, for one, don't want to see that happen. I thoroughly enjoy the game, the creations that have been done before, see the potential for the future, and with the utmost respect to the creators and their works, wish to share all that, unless expressly forbidden to do so, which, in my opinion would be a true shame.

(Yes, I know, I'm beating a dead horse, but that's just how I feel about it)

*Steps down off his soapbox now and goes back to lurking quietly in the back of the room*

Offline Panther_Gunn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2016, 05:01:49 PM »
Has this worthy topic died, or has it just gone into the background?  I think we're at a time where we do need to start gathering content before it's lost, and hopefully managed by people who are at least somewhat active and able to respond to questions and requests.

Should we compile a list of what sites/creators we're looking to gather together, perhaps balanced by a list of sites that are still active?  I think Cyber burn has gotten a large chunk of the latter done.  Maybe we should get a Yahoo Group (for as long as they last) set up as a central point of reference, with multiple active members having full admin privileges so it doesn't fall to just one person all the time, and probably do the same thing for where we actually gather the content.

I would be willing to help manage some aspects of this, but I think like most of us now, it will be time permitting.  If we get enough dedicated people I think it should be fairly resistant to the ravages of time.

Unless I'm overstepping a bit, then this can all be safely disregarded.
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