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Author Topic: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society- One last comment.  (Read 4362 times)

Offline daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2017, 05:11:35 AM »
Plugging this into The Wayback Machine http://skinventory.freedomforceforever.com/index.php   and setting the viewed page to something in 2008 gives you an active set of pages that have working links! If you don't have them, get them quick, before they get lost like the stuff from NPI. I have tried this with Sarcasm-Himie's page, but with no results.

I have added this information to the Living List.

Offline WyldFyre

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2017, 01:26:35 PM »
Thanks DG. Been looking for some of these.  Couldn't remember where I had seen them before.  You da MAN!

Offline daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2017, 03:34:45 PM »
Pulled from the Living List


Update on Starlock: Plugging this into The Wayback Machine   http://web.archive.org/web/20070509183223/http://starlockforfreedom.bravepages.com/  and check different captures and you can find several links that are still active (some are active on one capture, not on another)

If you don't have them and you want them, well, what are you waiting for?

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2017, 03:55:18 PM »
Just noticed this topic.  If someone wanted to archive these sites and files to somewhere we control, I can offer some space at freedomforceforever.com.  I have neither the time nor the patience to do it myself, but choose a few people to be in charge of it and I can set you up with a subdomain and fttp access.
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Offline daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2017, 04:56:56 PM »
That would be great. I know I started this thread, but unless my life calms down I can't do it (lots of doctor visits, lots of waiting).

But how do we archive them? Can we save the old stuff without the creator's permission? I have Tommy Troy's permission to post his creations, but what about anyone else? A lot of this old stuff is just for completist's sake, but I study the old skins (like I study old comic book art) to see "How They Did It". I'm sure others do too. As I've said, some of the ingenuity behind these old skins and meshes astounds me. Do we search the Wayback Machine for stuff that is no longer available and put it at Freedom Force Forever, or what?

Can we do like Cyber Burn has done and post zips of massed old characters, or something like just a web page with individual links to all the characters on it? It's been years, but once upon a time there were simple bare-bones pages that consisted of links to the stuff you wanted.

C'mon guys, Cat's offering us something great, we need to figure out how to use it.

Offline WyldFyre

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2017, 06:54:38 PM »
I know nothing about setting up web pages or downloads, but I have some free time and would be willing. 

I guess we would need to know what would be allowed and how we would want to present it. Like Alex by creator? Or more generic? And permissions from former content creators?

And how would you want to handle any who are no longer with us?

I think it could be a great resource for us.

I will help however I can.  If someone can teach me the basics of this I would be willing to work on it.

 

Offline WyldFyre

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2017, 04:45:04 PM »
Hey Daglob, any other takers on this?

I would be willing to do a lot of the heavy lifting on this if we could get a consensus on content and how to provide it.

I really hate to see a lot of the content vanish due to being lost on the internet.

Keep me in mind.

Offline daglob

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2017, 07:19:05 PM »
I certainly don't have any reservations to your handling it. No one else has chimed in... so I'd say the job is yours. ^_^

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society-Bump
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2017, 07:54:07 PM »
I'm good with WyldFyre taking the job.  :thumbup:

Offline WyldFyre

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2017, 09:31:23 PM »
Okey dokey.  So how do we want to do this.  Preserve individual files? Whole sites where possible? Links to wayback pages?

Again, I'll be learning as I go.  Making links is fairly easy I think, but how do you guys want to do this?

I'll PM Cat and see what we can see.

I think between the 3 of us we have an awful lot of older content, I'd love to see it have a home.

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2017, 09:34:33 PM »
Give me a minute, and I'll shoot you a PM regarding this.

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2017, 12:27:11 AM »
I am just glad to have my little metasite still being useful.  I had thought about retiring it a while back, but then I checked the activity logs and found a decent amount of activity going on.  As long as you all keeping using it, it will remain and be available for more of these little projects.
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Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2017, 03:19:42 AM »
Cat, I'm still using it relatively often, so I hope you'll keep it going for a nice long time!  It's a huge portion of the community!  If you ever do decide to retire it, I hope you'll let me know.  If I could swing it, I'd keep it going.

Guys, I just want to say thanks to all of y'all for your efforts.  Y'all are heroes of the community!  :D
God Bless
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Offline WyldFyre

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2017, 02:27:30 PM »
Okay Guys,

This is going to happen.

I am working with Cat to get it set up and will try to keep updates current as it progresses.

Now on to some questions for everyone.

1. Do we want this set up by creator. (ie. Copper Age, Paradox, etc.)
2. Do we want to preserve original web pages where available? Would that require permission from the original person/people involved?
3. For unknown artists, how do we want to proceed?
4. There are a lot of creators who are no longer with us and therefore can't give permission. Do we want to provide their content as well?

And last but not least.  Is there a program to allow me to design this thing without costing me an arm and a leg?

As a last note, I asked Cat to name it "FFMuseum". I hope that suits you guys.

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2017, 04:15:50 PM »
It's set up on my end.  The website address is probably working now for some of you, although it will take about an hour to propagate everywhere.  There's nothing actually there, however, unless you really like 404 errors, but actually address does exist now.  WyldFyre can begin work whenever he likes and if others want to help him upload things, I can create additional accounts as needed.
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2017, 04:17:01 PM »
1. Do we want this set up by creator. (ie. Copper Age, Paradox, etc.)

I would lean toward subject matter on this one (DC, Marvel, Etc.), for Skins, then maybe a separate, alphabetized list for Meshes?

2. Do we want to preserve original web pages where available? Would that require permission from the original person/people involved?

I would say no to this, just so that we could combine aspects from different Pages. Also, since there are so many people that we are not going to be able to get permissions from, we're going to have to have another debate about that.

3. For unknown artists, how do we want to proceed?

Again, this is another topic we're going to have to have a debate on. We pass Skins and Meshes on individually, but properly hosting them is another thing entirely.

4. There are a lot of creators who are no longer with us and therefore can't give permission. Do we want to provide their content as well?

I would say, maybe have separate page as a "Tribute to the Fallen", and give a list of current Members that they can PM here to Request those Member's Work.

5. And last but not least.  Is there a program to allow me to design this thing without costing me an arm and a leg?

Before life got all screwy on me, a similar option was was offered by someone (And I am really kicking myself for not taking it), but a Program called WebDwarf that is supposed to be good with FireFox was highly recommended.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2017, 05:16:45 PM »
I'll give you guys permission to post any of my old stuff with one caveat...remove my email addys in the Readme sections. Reason being, most of my old stuff has email addys that are now dead...otherwise - if you find it and it's mine, you got an ok from me to host it on this idea.

Offline WyldFyre

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Thanks DJ. I will do my best to keep those email addys out.

@CB. I guess a good place to start might be with a list of creators. Has there ever been a list compiled?
 I have skins somewhat organized by creator on a drive, but a lot of the skins I have need to be organized.

Also, I don't want to be repetitive to other sites like the Freedom Fortress, or LP's site or Heroforce. And definitely don't want to step on anyone's hosted content.

@DaGlob. Getting ready to look at your PM now.

Offline Cyber Burn

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@CB. I guess a good place to start might be with a list of creators. Has there ever been a list compiled?
 I have skins somewhat organized by creator on a drive, but a lot of the skins I have need to be organized.

Also, I don't want to be repetitive to other sites like the Freedom Fortress, or LP's site or Heroforce. And definitely don't want to step on anyone's hosted content.


I think the Skin Megalist might be a good place to start as far as creating a list of Content Creators go.

And as far as the Content itself goes, I'd say to keep it a Museum, stick to the really old, no longer hosted, stuff.

Offline WyldFyre

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And as far as the Content itself goes, I'd say to keep it a Museum, stick to the really old, no longer hosted, stuff.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe try to salvage the older stuff from Yahoo groups etc. I'll try to get some organized and up this week as a preview.

Offline Panther_Gunn

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I would also agree that we stick to only content that no longer has an active host (things only found floating around in the Wayback Machine would qualify as no hosting).  I would also consider anything that's still accessible from a Yahoo Group to be hosted.  We may want to consider having "backups" of the content from any YG that we haven't heard from the creator in a while, in the event that the Group does go away, but not have that content in the Museum as long as it's still accessible in the YG.

Obviously, we'd work with any creators that we can still get ahold of for permissions, but I think that anyone we haven't heard from in quite a while, who has left no stated opinion on the subject, should also be included in the list of things we put on the site.  There should be a conspicuous note on the front page of the site that all content is subject to removal at the creator's request, and have a very obvious address or link for someone to make such a request.

Should we have a list of creators, and their stated positions on hosting, posted somewhere (if it already exists I'm not aware of where it is)?  It could help keep down questions like "hey, can you put stuff from X on the site?".

As far as categorizing it, I would lean more towards grouping it by creator, sub-grouped into skins and meshes, and then each sub-grouped into companies (Marvel, DC, Image, etc.).  The main reason I have for that is that quite a few made content that don't fit neatly into the main comic companies (Star Wars, Transformers, D&D), as well as original content.  It mirrors how many sites are currently (Alex, Tommy) as well as sites in the past.  I think it will be easier to categorize, but that may just be me.
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Offline Deaths Jester

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One thing to consider with a creator list is those creators that posted only a few things. That happened a lot in the early days of FF, esp when Freedom Force Center was the ultimate hosting site for FF skins. Do you want to include them on the list or consider putting them as a single collection in the Museum?

Also, I agree with PG on the original content handling. I mean, most of NPI skins were originals that fit into a single universe that every poster/creator supported and had equal input on...including myself.

Def say there needs to be special spots for folks like Gryphon, Beyonder, Copper Age, and Firestorm along with the original FXForce crew. Without them, a lot of things wouldn't have happened in the early days. They pushed ideas and found things that many of us didn't even think was possible at the time. Course, that's just my opinion...

Note: My Frp stuff shouldn't be included as I've gained hosting for them and a few newer/unreleased things. :)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 10:42:21 PM by Deaths Jester »

Offline WyldFyre

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I would also agree that we stick to only content that no longer has an active host (things only found floating around in the Wayback Machine would qualify as no hosting).  I would also consider anything that's still accessible from a Yahoo Group to be hosted.  We may want to consider having "backups" of the content from any YG that we haven't heard from the creator in a while, in the event that the Group does go away, but not have that content in the Museum as long as it's still accessible in the YG.

Obviously, we'd work with any creators that we can still get ahold of for permissions, but I think that anyone we haven't heard from in quite a while, who has left no stated opinion on the subject, should also be included in the list of things we put on the site.  There should be a conspicuous note on the front page of the site that all content is subject to removal at the creator's request, and have a very obvious address or link for someone to make such a request.

Should we have a list of creators, and their stated positions on hosting, posted somewhere (if it already exists I'm not aware of where it is)?  It could help keep down questions like "hey, can you put stuff from X on the site?".

As far as categorizing it, I would lean more towards grouping it by creator, sub-grouped into skins and meshes, and then each sub-grouped into companies (Marvel, DC, Image, etc.).  The main reason I have for that is that quite a few made content that don't fit neatly into the main comic companies (Star Wars, Transformers, D&D), as well as original content.  It mirrors how many sites are currently (Alex, Tommy) as well as sites in the past.  I think it will be easier to categorize, but that may just be me.

Well said. Exactly where I was leaning. We should attempt to contact people, but I realize fully that some are a long shot at best.

One thing to consider with a creator list is those creators that posted only a few things. That happened a lot in the early days of FF, esp when Freedom Force Center was the ultimate hosting site for FF skins. Do you want to include them on the list or consider putting them as a single collection in the Museum?

Also, I agree with PG on the original content handling. I mean, most of NPI skins were originals that fit into a single universe that every poster/creator supported and had equal input on...including myself.

Def say there needs to be special spots for folks like Gryphon, Beyonder, Copper Age, and Firestorm along with the original FXForce crew. Without them, a lot of things wouldn't have happened in the early days. They pushed ideas and found things that many of us didn't even think was possible at the time. Course, that's just my opinion...

Note: My Frp stuff shouldn't be included as I've gained hosting for them and a few newer/unreleased things. :)

I really miss the NPI stuff.

Some folks like Beyonder/Firestorm have pages at Alex's site. I wouldn't want to super-cede him on those creators. Gryphon, Copper and others should definitely have their work represented.

I am leaning toward the Creator/Universe/Content method as well. No disrespect meant to CB, but there is a vast amount of content by various artists that may make a Universe/Content/Creator method a bit confusing.

On a separate question.... Where do you guys stand on Hexed Meshes? As a general rule Nifskope has made the use of xxx_with_no_cape a little redundant. I mean most people can hide an object in Nifskope I think. However not hosting them may diminish what, at the time, was a considerable contribution to the game.  Opinions/thoughts?

On the creator list, I think each will have a page of work, but those who only made a few skins might not have to be divided by universe. I would like to maintain the continuity of using pics as links to zips, though some will be more involved than others.

Offline daglob

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Note: My Frp stuff shouldn't be included as I've gained hosting for them and a few newer/unreleased things. :)
   :)

About unknown skins, a picture of the skin can be posted and identification requested. Most artists have distinctive styles, and it may just be that someone will see it who knows the creator. Other times, I have found a skin with no readme file, then later found the same skin with a readme. Why was it missing from the first skin? I don't know. But it might mean that someone will have seen the file can can tell who did it.

Sorting by company may be a problem. Look at my stuff (Or Vigilante's, or Copper Age's, or J.K. Carrier's or The Phantom Stranger's or...): I do skins from Fiction House, Quality Comics, Magazine Enterprises, Columbia Magazines, Rural Home, ACG, Street and Smith, Gleason, Harvey, Croydon, CMO, Charlton... you get the picture. And do we consider Fawcett, Quality, MLJ, and Charlton part of DC (including characters that have never appeared at DC)? Do we count Centaur (or any other company Martin Goodman had) as part of Marvel? Maybe do like Alex does: have each creator separate, and divide their sections into Marvel, DC, Original, and Other. I can see adding Image and maybe a few others (MLJ, for instance). How Do we handle those creators who did only one or two skins or meshes? I would say give all those with a small number of skins or meshes (5? 10?) a communal section. I have no idea what to call it. I have Miscellaneous folders on my computer, but I don't think we should have a section on a web site called that.

Hmmm... could we talk to Alex and see how he has the Freedom Fortress search?

I do feel that if someone created a skin or mesh (or FX or Mod or anything) and posted it someplace it could be downloaded, he intended for it to be used. Preserving it so people could continue to do that would be within their wishes.

Newer people who have no familiarity with Nifscope would benefit from having a section of hexes. I can't see giving it a lot of room, but I would have been lost without them in the beginning.

What about keyframes and SFX?

I am worried about the future of Yahoo. Heck, I'm worried about the present of it, since I have had stuff go missing already. That is why I have pulled a couple of items and sent them to Alex, and intend to send more. While I agree we don't need to double up, we might want to consider options on stuff in Yahoo groups.

Wait! Wait! I can see it now: a section called "The Unknown Skinner"...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 02:21:05 AM by daglob »

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Mods should not be included, since I already have the Mod Graveyard for that purpose, although if someone wants to take it over and add more stuff to it, I'd be willing to allow that.
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Offline WyldFyre

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Mods should not be included, since I already have the Mod Graveyard for that purpose, although if someone wants to take it over and add more stuff to it, I'd be willing to allow that.

Actually had some questions about this.

I don't know how many mods are unaccounted for. I have almost all of the FF (based on what I've read/found online) and with the exception of those on Alex's site and FFX I don't think most of them are hosted anywhere. The graveyard is a fabulous idea, but should we add to it? There are many no longer available anywhere else.

I think I may be a little busy with the museum to also tackle mods, but I would be willing to upload them somewhere if someone else wants to do it.

Offline BentonGrey

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Good ideas, guys.  I'd say subdivisionsby DC, Marvel, Original, and Other would be the way to go, and I'd include in DC anything that is generally associated with them, like Captain Marvel and the Charlton characters.
God Bless
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Offline spydermann93

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Yeah, I think that categorization would work the best.

Offline Deaths Jester

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While agree with Glob on many skinners having distinct styles, some have been a constant flux in styles. Take mine or C6's styles - we both were around during the beginning, trying to see what we could and couldn't do. If you look at our stuff from back then and compared them to our time on EF and then stuff after that, our styles changed majorly - some so much that one would think the skins were done by different skinners (I even have problems sometimes distingushing if an old skin I did is actually mine...due in part to the amount I've done and the vastly different style). But that's me rambling.

I think a section should be made for hexes because it was a major thing back when it came about. Before then, us skinners had to get a mesher (often an overworked one like Beyonder, Gren, Lord Embsy (sp?), Gyrus, and Andrew Davis) to create something that fit what we were looking for. Hexing opened doors for us to allow us to do things we weren't able to beforehand and also helped ease the workload of the meshers which allowed them to make meshes they wanted to make (Beyonder's Doc Ock comes to mind).

Damn, I'm starting to sound like an old geezer now..."back in my day, we used to skin with a pencil and pad, in the snow, without shoes or gloves..."


Offline daglob

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"...going uphill... both ways..."

There are Yahoo Groups for base skins and lightmaps. I'd say not worry about those unless the groups go away. I think most of the variations of the Irrational meshes are available (Is El Diabo Super Sayan still around?).