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Author Topic: 15 Things wrong with Civil War  (Read 1660 times)

Offline HarryTrotter

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15 Things wrong with Civil War
« on: July 04, 2016, 04:07:29 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_iCAivfGsg
Linkara takes a look at Civil War.Not included Death of Captain America,Sally Floyd and Iron Man-war profiteer.When you line it up like this things are really bad.So a reminder:
Steve and Tony are jerks,everyone else is an idiot,most of it is Reeds fault.And who the hell had the idea to kill Goliath and bury him wrapped in chains? :blink:
Mark Millar and Steve McNiven really had no idea what they were doing.Also,looking at it like this,could the part of the blame lay with Secret War by Bendis?
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 12:45:43 PM »
So in discussing Civil War II in the Marvel Thread, I remembered that I actually wrote a draft for a response to this thread back when you started it a month ago and then totally forgot about it. I did skim through the review; I don't remember how much I saw of it but I think I watched most of it. Anyway, had some stuff of my own to chime in. For the record, I've read virtually every comic that's part of Civil War so I have extensive knowledge of the details. Mind you, that was like a decade ago, but the nice thing about a story as infamous as Civil War is that the more egregious moments keep coming up in online discussion so I get my memory jogged a bit on it.

Just a sidenote, on top of all the cringe-worthy moments and villainization of Tony Stark (such as being a war profiteer in Frontline) he euthanized Happy Hogan, one of his longtime best friends, in the main Iron Man book, using technology to do so no one would know he did it. Ouch.

-Regarding Secret War: Secret War definitely laid the groundwork for this book, which makes it appropriate that Bendis is writing Civil War II and that the first level of the Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 video game, which loosely adapted Civil War, started with a truncated version of Secret War (which I think tied into the bizarre Take-A-Third-Option original ending the game came up with). The ever-present Maria Hill originated there, and New Avengers Illuminati was written by Bendis and that was part of "The Road to Civil War". The original book even included the first scene from Civil War #1 tacked on at the end as a sort of preview/epilogue.

-I'm a little disappointed that he posits the question of whether or not there were already supervillain/superhero prisons without answering this question for the audience. He later admits he knows DC better than Marvel (something he's copped to many times) so I'm not sure he actually knows the answer. For the record, Marvel has a bunch: There's the Vault, which has been around since at least the late 80's/early 90s and was featured prominently in the crossover "Acts of Vengeance" and also appeared in Busiek's run on Thunderbolts, The Raft, which is the most well known one from the late 10 years or so and was made by Bendis, if I recall. There's the Big House, which was made by Hank Pym in Dan Slott's She-Hulk run and involved shrinking all the supervillains and keeping them in a miniature prison (which surprisingly wasn't used in other comics, but it was used in the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon). And these were all before Civil War so they're relevant.

-Not sure I agree with his choice to exclude stuff from the tie-ins since he constantly shows pages from the tie-ins as visual aids, and uses stuff that happened in the tie-ins as discussion points when talking about the Spider-Man unmasking part. In addition, the book was always meant to be an event with tie-ins, and plot points in the mini were kept brief BECAUSE they knew they'd be explored in more detail in other books. The book doesn't exist in a vacuum. All of this is standard operating procedure for event comics for both Marvel and DC, even going back to Millennium, Invasion, ect from DC in the late 80's, early 90s.

-"The Impetus" (Stanford and Nitro): He outright admits he doesn't know the details and the only research he did was check Wikipedia, but he asks if Nitro is really that powerful. The answer is NO, he was using a drug to make himself more powerful, this was explored in Wolverine's CW tie-in arc. I'm disappointed that he tried to look it up and still didn't get it right.

As for "Is this really the thing that makes causes all this"? No. There was another book before this, New Avengers: The Illuminati, where Hulk rampaged through Las Vegas, which was what cause Tony Start et all to launch the Hulk into space, leading to Planet Hulk. Tony shows the others a early draft of the Super Hero Registration Act, and tells them in no uncertain terms, this is happening no matter what, so be ready for it. Stanford just caused them to rush the act into congress, kinda like in real life sometimes. The visual aids he shows during this part of the review shown plain as day that these other incidents (along with Wolverine being brainwashed in Mark Miller's Enemy of the State) are brought up in the book.

For the record, I've always been of the opinion that most of the tie-ins to Civil War are better than the main book. Examples include Amazing Spider-Man, Sensational SM, Friendly Neighborhood SM Wolverine, That one issue of Dan Slott's She-Hulk, Young Avengers/Runaways, Punisher War Journal, Thunderbolts, Brubaker's Cap of course, Heroes for Hire, Cable & Deadpool. I think that was all of them. Mind you, tie-ins being better than the main book happens very often in Marvel and DC event minis. You could take that as indication that the idea for the main story isn't very good.

-I'm also a bit iffy on his repeated mentioning of the traumatizing effects of the Negative Zone for strictly for one reason: unless my memory is really failing on this one, they are never mentioned in the storyline itself. I know it's a bit hypocritical for me for pick at that because I use that kind of established canon internal logic to criticize stories in Marvel books all the time, but I still thought it was worth bringing up. The other thing you gotta remember is, Marvel's internal logic and continuity is so all over the place after 2004 or so that for all we know, none of that was "considered true" of the Negative Zone at the time. Is the Rhino Irish, a guy from Jersey or a Russian? Is he intelligent or incredibly stupid? Is Fixer a perverted snarky opportunist or a more traditionally heroic character? Is Zemo a hero or villain? How about Madame Mask? How stupid is Hawkeye? How immature are Johnny Storm and Iceman? How much of an a-hole is Hank Pym? Sometimes it really does depend on which book you're reading.

So yeah, that's what happens when you review a massive event comic storyline in a single video as part of a weekly review series: You don't quite have the prep-time to do all the extra research. I still enjoyed the review though, but I get the feeling this one was more for the AT4W fans who aren't familiar with the comic firsthand.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 12:56:03 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2016, 01:35:35 PM »
Frontline was written by Paul Jenkins,so nothing good could have happened in the first place.As much as I complain about MArk Millar or Brian Michael Bendis or somebody else,there is still a lot of stuff by them that I did like.There is nothing by Paul Jenkins that I could even stomach.Just remembering his Hellblazer run makes me want to kill myself.

-I think the harmful effects of Negative Zone were established sometimes earlier in FF,and not Civil War itself.But Im not 100% sure.Then again,how Negative Zone works has changed from writer to writer.Same could be said for its inhabitants.One day Annihilus is trying to kill every living thing,and tomorrow hes reading newspapers on the toilet in Peters and Johnny apartment.That really happened,I kid you not.

-One thing I would have to mention,is that a few years earlier Reed shot down the mutant registration act,and now he was supporting pretty much the same thing.I think that was explained as him trying to stop a bad future he saw from happening.

-And Kang blew up Washington a little before these events.Something thats pretty much never mentioned again.But only person that blamed Nitro was Penance,who goes to hunt him down in Penance miniseries.I think I just saw the first issue of that,so I cant say how it went down.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2016, 04:35:04 PM »
-Oh c'mon now, did you ever read Jenkin's Spider-Man run? While there was stupid stuff in it, and nearly all of the humor fell flat, there was quite a bit of humanity and maturity with his version of Peter that I just don't see in Slott's version these days.  Not to mention his Green Goblin story with Ramos (which I believe was his first Marvel gig) was really good before the final issue where he kinda botched the landing a bit. Fusion was pretty good. His Doc Ock and Venom stories in Spectacular were pretty good too, though he may have created Ock's daddy issues backstory, so I have him to thank for that annoying aspect of Otto in Slott's run. His take on Venom laid the groundwork for Anti-Venom, his Queen story (hated as it was, and no, I don't think it was that bad), led to Spider-Island, and going even further back, his Chameleon story, melodramatic as it was, laid the groundwork for the actually-pretty-darn-good Chameleon story by Fred Van Lente during The Gauntlet. There's definitely nothing in Jenkins' run on Spidey that I recall that offends me on the level of any number of things in Slott's run from Inferior Spider-Man onward.

-Not sure about Civil War, but Dark Reign: Fantastic Four by Johnathon Hickman is the true starting point for Hickman's entire marvel "saga". The whole premise of his Future Foundation and Avengers run with the Incursions and such starts with that, with Reed detailing how he was visited by beings from the future or alternate worlds or some such and gained knowledge of other universes that were basically Marvel's "What If"'s.

-Ah, yes, The Kang Dynasty/Kang War. One of my all time favorite comics from one of my all time favorite runs. Busiek, back when the books were decent. It really was all downhill from there wasn't it? #trollface. Nah, but seriously, Washington got one scene referencing it in the fist issue of Johns' run (two issues later, since Busiek's run ended on a fun-but-pointless done-in-on story that ironically was what got me into Avengers) where Hank and Jan were saying it was "being rebuilt" or some such. Man, Damage Control must have got some serious overtime on that one, am I right guys?

-I did read the Penance mini a few years ago. It was alright, not great, but definitely not terrible. Its main negative IMO was that the art was kind of weak, and its main positive was that the pacing was a hell of a lot better than Warren Ellis' Thunderbolts, where Penace was appearing at the time. The one thing about it I absolutely adored though was that Jenkins took the opportunity to resolve a hanging plot thread (Mendall Stromm, the Robot Master) from early on in his Peter Parker Spider-Man run in a minimum of dialogue in a way that actually made a lot of sense. I really liked that, I wish stuff like that happened more often in the comics. The days of Busiek's Avengers and Thunderbolts seem so long ago...
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 05:02:23 PM »
Heh,curiously,Penance is also written by Paul Jenkins.I cant say how he stacks against Dan Slott(Clash of the Titans,right there),I do know hes the guy who invented Rich the Punk.I rest my case.

-I meant sometimes earlier in Fantastic Four.And technically,wouldn't Secret Warriors be the start of Hickmans mega-story?With Ultimate Comics:Ultimates as something of a trial run?
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 06:09:51 PM »
Well, Secret Warriors spun out of Secret Invasion, just like Dark Reign, as such, the two books came out around the same time. 1 month apart, to be exact, (yes, I looked it up), so they were basically playing out concurrently. You could think of it like how he had Avengers and New Avengers coming out at the same time. Mind you, I'm not sure how much SW had to do with his Secret Invasion run, though Manifold was in Avengers.

I had to look up who Rich the Punk was (Hellblazer). The Spider-Man equivalent would have been Typeface. Who as it happens, was killed off in Civil War: Frontline.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 06:33:01 PM »
Rich was just the tip there.There was a whole supporting cast of equaly annoying charaters.Who all got sweapt away when the next writer took over.I think it was Andy Diggle.
Jenkins was trying to spin something about Arthurian myths,which ended up fastly resolved,and revealed Rich was a descendant of king Arthur.Most of it was spent on John helping his neighbours with haunted houses,Rich doing something stupid,Rich trying to play music,Rich surfing on the roof of a van and Rich teaching Slobodan english.Slobodan was another Jenkinsian character- Funny Foreigner/Serbian War criminal(because ofc).And so it went on for around 30 issues.Jenkins claimed he based the supporting cast on his friends.He must have really hated them.And so yeah,after that,I try to avoid him.
In this case,CW Frontier is a prime example.Sally freaking Floyd.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 06:37:03 PM by Spade »
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 06:43:16 PM »
Actually, considering what you just said, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Jenkins based the neighbor characters in his Spider-Man run off people he knew in real life. The ones in Spectacular seemed especially off.
Actually I just remembered another things Jenkins worked on for Marvel - Sentry. I know a lot of people hated the Sentry, but I actually thought those two minis Jenkins wrote about him were pretty darn good. Particularly the second one that Jr. Jr. did the art for. Not so much Bendis' use of character. Funny how they never bothered to bring him back after the whole zombie thing in Uncanny Avengers.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2016, 06:50:04 PM »
Oh yeah,Sentry...Because Superman with mental issues was so original,but it gets a lot worst from there(his funeral).Turns out Sentry helped Tony with alchocolism,helped Reed with math,was bff with Hulk,had an affair with Rogue...He was awesome,everybody loved him,nothing in the MU could be accomplished without him.It hits the self insert fic territory.
About Spidermans neighbours there,I guess I can eliminate Rich and Slobodan types(original name there,btw),so was there a fat guy with a crazy mother,or maybe an annoying kid who gave stupid nicknames to people?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 07:03:52 PM by Spade »
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2016, 07:54:05 PM »
Oh yeah, I forgot about the funeral issue. Yeah I can't defend the funeral issue, that was completely stupid and unnecessarily.

There was definitely a fat guy, he was an Aussie, and there was a blonde bimbo character who tended to get into TMI territory. And a dog that may or may not have been building something in the other room. Other than the guy being fat I don't think the others were the same. It's been too long.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2016, 08:22:07 PM »
Okay,that doesnt sound similar.I guess Paul moved between Hellblazer and Spiderman. :)
Oh,and he also showed up in New Avengers to meet The Sentry.Which,I guess,was meant to emulate Animal Man/Grant Morrison meeting,but just falls flat.Sad thing is,that there were some promising things in New Avengers,but execution was the problem.
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Offline Talavar

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2016, 02:16:47 AM »
This thread has ranged all over, but I want to chime in that yes, Civil War did suck.

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2016, 02:35:53 AM »
This thread has ranged all over, but I want to chime in that yes, Civil War did suck.

No one was questioning that. Ironically, it didn't have to suck. The basic premise could have actually made for a compelling, fascinating story in the right hands, and thanks to the Russo brothers, it got turned into one just this year. Unfortunately, the original Civil War took that premise and placed it in a dumpster fire, essentially shooting itself in the foot despite itself. Sort of like Donald Trump come to think of it. ;)
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2016, 05:05:42 AM »
Not sure how Donny factors here...
If you want a subtle story,dont hire Mark Millar.
At first,you can kinda see Tonys position,but then he goes way overboard.
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2016, 10:55:33 AM »
^ I believe Tvtropes calls that "The Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement" or to put it into laymen's terms: I ain't touching that one sir. [I really wanted to post a clip of Alfred saying that in Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman, but couldn't find one. Oh well.]
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2016, 11:20:55 AM »
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2016, 12:34:33 PM »
That was Shortpacked, right? Such a good series. I can't believe Willis ended it.

That last bit really makes me think of Superman's speech about how no-nonsense tactics just don't work in a world of jet powered evil gorillas.

And of course, Marvel's own writers took the piss of Civil War. In the Marvel Adventures line, Cap and Tony assured Hulk that "We'd never shoot you into space."

On the topic of Spider-Man though, in Atop the Fourth Wall's One More Day review, Linkara successfully argued that Peter Parker is incredibly irresponsible. (admittedly, using at least one example that came out after Civil War and also after One More Day itself)
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2016, 12:51:45 PM »
Speaking of which,have you seen Linakara and Last Angry Geek review One Moment in time.
LAG:Turns out that Peter,like so many of us,spent his bachelors night under a fat guy.
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2016, 02:14:36 PM »
I have, but I wasn't crazy about it. It was nice to see them tackle it, but it was dry (as LAG always tended to be; I remember he joked that his fellow reviewers called him "that bland guy") and I wouldn't begrudge Linkara a proper review of OMIT. It took years of fans bugging him to get him to admit he'd review new Spidey comics if they sent them to him (since he doesn't want to buy them), since half his output these days is fan requests now. I still think it's all bullcrap because he's outright admitted he read Scarlet Spider, and actively reads Silk and Spider-Gwen, ALL of which directly spun out of the main Spidey book. You are buying Spider-Man books. Amusingly, if Spider-Man/Deadpool is any indication, sometime in the future he might have to keep his promise and buy every comic since One More Day.

On that note, I want to take the opportunity to address something else from an AT4W review. Linkara reviewed the Deadpool comic with Brute Force in it and got super offended that Deadpool of all people made an autism joke. Did I miss something? Deadpool makes un-PC jokes all the time. It's one of the things he's most known for. Complaining about that is like complaining that the Punisher shoots people. Which would be fine, except he's an unabashed Deadpool fan. It doesn't make any sense to me.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2016, 02:32:26 PM »
I havent seen that review(I havent really seen anything from at4w in a while,except this ofc),but that isnt out of character for Deadpool.Maybe Linkara took it personaly for some reason?
I would really like to see him buy all the Spiderman comics since OMD.:)
Counting just Amazing(and Superior and then again Amazing),it comes to 100-120 issues?Probably more.
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2016, 04:05:21 PM »
Not sure how Donny factors here...

Donny was (unfortunately,) doing just fine in the Republican shock tactics. Sure, they were rude, crude, and made him out be a moron, but they worked for his audience. Except now, his audience has drastically expanded, and the same tactics that worked for him in the past are doing him in. Rather than switching up gears and delivering his 'message' in a way that people with actual good taste can understand and digest, he is instead continuing to enact such f-ups as telling the Russians to leak Hilary's emails, insulting the Khans, and saying that Obama and Hilary founded ISIS. He is shooting himself in the foot and driving away some of the very people who supported him. Much like Civil War. ;)
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2016, 04:40:23 PM »
This seems to be drifting into some dangerous political territory guys.  Remember the board rules, and stay away from such topics.
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2016, 04:50:38 PM »
I regret asking that.Anyhow,I dont care much for political scene in the US.Not living there and all that.
And like Shortpacked Iron Man points out,real-politik doesnt work well in a crazy fictional universe.
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2016, 05:06:30 PM »
This seems to be drifting into some dangerous political territory guys.  Remember the board rules, and stay away from such topics.

Sorry about that. I, uh, never actually bothered to read the rules. Until now, it didn't really seem that important. >_>
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2016, 05:07:48 PM »
No worries.  Think of it like talking with family.  We avoid religion and politics in order to keep the peace.  :P

Those are topics that can breed some pretty ill will and some nastiness that FR is better without.
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2016, 05:13:16 PM »
No worries.  Think of it like talking with family.  We avoid religion and politics in order to keep the peace.  :P

Those are topics that can breed some pretty ill will and some nastiness that FR is better without.

I understand. It's just that on the topics on other boards where we can discuss politics, everyone's more or less on the same page, so there isn't any real nastiness or disputes because we already agree on the same basic things. So I guess I thought it would be OK to talk about that sort of stuff here too. But if you don't want to talk about any of that here, then that's completely A-OK.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2016, 05:22:16 PM »
Yeah, I don't think it was necessary to go into detail about Trump. This isn't really the place for that.
Different boards, different atmosphere, different rules. On Tvtropes, you can say the f-word and noone cares, but it's against the rules to acknowledge the existence of gay jokes, even when discussing the Deadpool movie, which had at least one gay joke in it.
I learned a loooong time ago to just walk away and pick your battles.

Actually, speaking of the Deadpool movie, Spade -- Linkara gave a very enthusiastically positive review to the Deadpool movie -- which makes it all the more baffling that he complained about the autism joke considering the Ryan Reynolds flick includes - last I checked - gay jokes, r@pe jokes, child abuse jokes, and a trans joke. See, if anything that one should get to him since as a member of That Guy With the Glasses/Channel Awesome, he worked alongside fellow reviewers for years who later came out as trans. Aaaand that's all I'm saying about that.  On the other hand, the Deadpool movie gives the most positive depiction of a prostitute I've seen since Morena Baccarin's other nerd role, Inara from Firefly.

I think it's possible he was trying to stay "in character" when getting indigent about the autism joke, but considering how much he loves to rant about the -isms, I kinda doubt it. I just think he missed the forests for the trees on that one.
-"Wherever kindness is MOCKED--and CRUELTY is worn as a badge of honor--THERE you will find them. So WEAK inside,

that they cannot imagine that TRUE strength of SPIRIT--can even exist."
~Peregrine, describing Hydra, U.S. Avengers #8

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2016, 05:42:16 PM »
Like I said,lets forget politics,I personaly dont care either way.
For the record,TvTropes is not a good example of a civil board.I dont really have to explain why.

Anyhow,like I said about the event,it was an interesting idea,but poor execution.
And a different Civil War,but I have to say it-anyone remembers when Carol tried to kill Tony because he was trying to get her to quit drinking?Pretty funny now.You think she still holds a grudge?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2016, 06:09:02 PM »
For the record,TvTropes is not a good example of a civil board.I dont really have to explain why.

Actually, you might, because I think TvTropes is actually pretty darn civil myself, at least compared to most boards.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: 15 Things wrong with Civil War
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2016, 06:15:18 PM »
They claim to be family friendly,yet there is swearing everywhere,they have an obssesion with r@pe,and they use the words "thought crime" unironicly.Thou that might be just the impression I got.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer