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Dead No more: Clone Conspiracy

Started by HarryTrotter, September 19, 2016, 05:38:38 PM

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HarryTrotter

I picked up ASM #16 and #17 and it was suprisingly easy to get into.Considering I havent been reading Spiderman titles in a long while.Im honestly interested to see what comes next.And we have  a new Electro,btw.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

I'm interested to see where this goes, actually. I've been kind of waiting for them to bring back Octavius since they revealed he was still alive, and the way things are going would make that interesting. If the big bad (spoilers) decides to bring him back, will it pull his consciousness from where it currently resides, or will both be alive?

HarryTrotter

Seeing this is Jackal,I dont think hes reviving people in the classical sense,hes probably just cloning them.So it would be a different Doc Ock I guess.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Just read the latest issue. Spoilers for that:

Spoiler
Actually, it seems like things are being set up for it to be the same Otto that we've been following inside the Living Brain. That said, I could also see them bringing back both... And it'd be an interesting confrontation, to say the least. The Otto that's been inside Living Brain isn't actually a post-sacrifice Otto, but is a backup he created at the end of Spider-Verse... Meaning this Otto is not the one who made the heroic sacrifice to restore Peter Parker.

If the "miracle" cloning works the way it seems to (with memories stretching until the moment of a person's death) an Otto brought back by Warren without the digital backup would either A. Only have memories up until he attempted to swap minds with Peter, or B. Have memories up until he sacrificed his own mind to restore Peter's. The latter is super intriguing, because it would set the stage for an interesting confrontation between an Otto who merely believes himself Superior, and an Otto who actually is.

HarryTrotter

The whole thing reminded me of Baxter Stockman...
Spoiler
Actually,Otto mentioned he can only transfer into Peters body,because the system is calibrated like that and he cant re-calibrate it.And now seeing the whole cloning thing,I think I can guess the resolution,Superior Spiderman could be back soon.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Spoiler
Actually, what he said was that the device was designed to transfer between his body and Peter's... Meaning he CAN transfer back to Peter's body, but the issue makes it clear why he doesn't want to go back to it.

That being said, he's made it clear he wants to make a better version of his original body, so I wouldn't be surprised if he attempts to augment his original body with what he knows about Peter's abilities.  A suedo-Superior Spider-man, if you will.

HarryTrotter

And the event itself started.No prizes in guessing whos back.And the backup story was pretty meta.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Man... that's disappointing.

Spoiler
After having been super happy with going back and reading the Superior Spider-Man series, as well as my recent disillusionment with Green Goblin as THE Spider-Man villain, I've been looking forward to Doc Ock's return for a while now. I was looking forward to something new, something that took advantage of the progression of his character during his time with Peter's memories. If not a body augmented with Spider-Powers, at least one in the prime of his youth, as ASM 18 even brought up.

But no, instead we just get Otto returning to his 40-something classic look, which is just... disappointing. Like... don't get me wrong, I LIKE Otto's classic look, but I was looking forward to something new, at least in design if not character progression.

Oh, and Gwen's back. In a Jackal story. Ho boy, no one saw that coming as soon as this arc started, no sir.

HarryTrotter

Well,she was in the FCBD issue,so this isnt exactly new.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Spoiler
It's more that this is a Gwen from up until her death, meaning she's practically the real Gwen resurrected, rather than a trophy wife clone. Again though, this is old ground, especially with the Jackal.

That said, didn't notice a reference to Sins Past in the backup story.

HarryTrotter

^That would make things akward.
Also,Goblin seems to be fully aware of "Women in refrigirators" there.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

It would, but my one hope coming out of this is that Peter will ask about it and she'll be like "What are you talking about?" revealing once and for all that the whole thing was yet another plan to screw with Peter's mind.

HarryTrotter

^Thats possible,but there is still the question of rapidly-growing-silver-age-babies.And thats a bit hard to explain.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

Not only did he revive every villain ever,but also
Spoiler
Madam Web.
Jackal either has some serious plan,or is just doing the whole thing for lulz.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

#14
Or both. It *is* the Jackal.
Spoiler
On the one hand, reviving Madam Web makes sense... getting someone who sees the future is a major boon to plotting, after all. On the other... her appearance raises a ton of questions. She transferred her powers to Julia Carpenter before she died. How does her clone, even one with all the original's memories, have them? Is it tied to Julia losing those powers after waking from her coma at the end of Spider-verse?

HarryTrotter

Speaking of which,due to the whole mess that was Clone Saga,It was never really clear what was Jackals original plan.Or he was working for High Evolutionary or something.
Its a bit better in Spider Island,but he seems to mostly do things because he can.Okay,he has a personal reason,I guess,but its not brought up that often.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

To quote any one of several characters in "Girl Genius":

"I'll show them! I'LL SHOW THEM ALL!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahah..."

Tomato

The Jackal's motives have always been to torture Spider-Man and to perfect his cloning science.

Miles has always blamed Spider-Man for the death of Gwen Stacy (he secretly loved her, because he was just creepy like that) and he was jealous of Peter because he got to be with her. Plus, for some reason the only time the cloning process was truly successful was because of Peter's physiology (the Gwen clone was retconned as some other woman Gwen's age that Jackal "overwrote" with Gwen's DNA.) so there's that little nugget of motivation that keeps him coming back.

HarryTrotter

Yeah,but like I said,that part is not mentioned often.
If the readers wasnt aware of previous stories,you could be a bit confused.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

#19
So. Clone Conspiracy #2.

Spoiler
The reveal here is... interesting, though I'm not sure how much I buy it. The main conceit is that the "zombie clone" thing is spread in all these different universes because Peter capitulates to the Jackal and spreads New U through his company.

Ummm... what?

First of all, I don't buy the idea that Peter even HAS a company on most worlds, let alone one big enough to spread New U everywhere. Peter only has a company in 616 because Otto basically gave him a doctorate and a company on a silver platter. Yes, Peter's innovations might have helped shape the company, but you'd have to do a LOT of mental backflips for that to be the status quo on a significant number of universes.

But even putting that issue aside... Peter's not that stupid. He wasn't really inclined to accept Jackal's pitch to begin with, let alone with his Spider-Sense blaring like a foghorn every time he gets near any of the clones. I could see this happening on one or two worlds before... enough to warn SS and SG of the problem... but the issue makes it seem like this is something affecting a significant number of worlds.

And even with ALL of that... it's not like this is something Jackal doesn't know about. He's well aware of the aberration, and Otto is already working on a way to correct it. You cannot honestly tell me that with Peter, Otto, and Miles all putting their heads together and doing their due diligence, they can't find a fix before rolling this stuff out.

HarryTrotter

Wow,Jackal is self-aware almost to the point of recognizing hes a comic book villain.Wait,I think hes fully aware of that.
-Anubis?
-Better then a fuzzy Yoda in speedos.
Spoiler
Spider Gwen thing came pretty much out of nowhere.Unless it was in Spider-Gwen,in that case,my bad.And not surprisingly,Kaine is back?What did he do since
Spider-verse?Or was that also in Spider-Gwen?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Spoiler
Spider-Gwen hasn't been out for a bit so it's conceivable. Plus, she was still running around as a part of the Web Warriors when that book ended, and it seems perfectly reasonable that the team encountered Kaine at some point. He's been alive for awhile and was last seen on the world they've been operating out of since the end of Spider-Verse, so it's not THAT big a plot hole to fill.

HarryTrotter

#22
And Peter has been pretty fast to buy into Jackals story.Ofc it would be pretty funny if this ends up being Korvac thing and Jackal really is good,but poor communication causes problems.
But I guess the theory about Jackal having the same plan again doesnt hold true anymore?
OR it might not even be Miles Warren under the mask.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

HarryTrotter

We did get an explanation of what Kaine was up to since Spider Verse.
And this happening on so many alternate worlds doesnt really seem plausible.Its Jackal,not Jim Jasper.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

Yeah... I point back to what I said when Clone Conspiracy #2. came out. In order for this to happen, there HAS to be a Parker Industries, and New U HAS to rise up in the company's wake. Even the argument that "all worlds are tied to 616, because Great Web", that still doesn't explain how this happened on all these worlds BEFORE they happened on 616. And I don't buy that AT ALL because they made a point of stating in Spider-Verse that Superior was the ONLY Spider-man who had been mind swapped with Ock, which is the ENTIRE REASON there's a Parker Industries in the first place. I'm not saying Peter doesn't have the talent... but he's the type of person who's just as happy working for a company like Horizon Labs or Stark Industries and propping that company up. He's not the type of person to slap his name on an entire company... particularly in light of him wanting to maintain a secret identity to the point of idiocy. Parker Industries is ABSOLUTELY a product of Otto's egomania.

HarryTrotter

Holly FUNT,I was right.  :blink:
Spoiler
Jackal ISNT Miles Warren.Hes Ben Riley,who's somehow alive.(Somebody used New U system on him?Which raises even more questions.)And offers to revive Uncle Ben.
Spiderman/SpiderGwen interaction was fun to read.And I have a strange feeling there is a new Spider-cycle toy available.  :rolleyes:
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

So there's a bit of a canonicity hiccup here.

Spoiler
So it's revealed in the latest issue of Amazing how Ben is alive, and how he got to this point: Simply put, Miles Warren found him and cloned him over and over.

Thing is though... that explanation doesn't wash unless this is a completely different Miles Warren. For one thing, we know the one running around up until VERY recently was the Jackal. Despite his Warren dupe army, it would have been that Miles that would have run experiments on Ben... and we KNOW that version didn't have access to Ben's DNA, because one of the reasons he was so desperate to get ahold of Kaine during Superior SM's tenure was because he needed to study the DNA of a working clone, since he didn't have Ben's DNA to work with.

That said, at the very least, there's a subtle, if stupid, explanation for the green and fuzzy jackal... there's a panel where Ben walks across a bunch of Jackal costumes. Doesn't entirely explain how the old and frail Miles Warren is able to leap around like the Beast, but it's there, I guess?

HarryTrotter

For the record,it was revealed in the previous issue of Clone Cospiracy 2 weeks ago.
I guess we just repeat the Mighty Marvel Mantra: It was 5 reboots ago,It was 5 reboots ago... :)
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

I didn't mean that part

Spoiler
I meant the details specifically. We knew it was Ben last issue, but we didn't know how. If this was something recent, something that happened since Miles' last appearance the Superior SM/Kaine crossover... I could buy it. But the implication from the rooftop scene is that Miles had Ben's DNA since right after Ben's death, and that directly contradicts the team-up claiming that Jackal needed Kaine's DNA to have a non-corrupt clone on file... which he wouldn't need if he's had Ben's DNA since his death.

Sure, it's an easy hand wave: Ben was goo at the time, so I doubt his DNA was in very good shape. Warren probably needed Kaine's DNA to stabilize Ben's. But it's a hand wave that's not ever mentioned or explored.

Also: Ben totally killed Miles. They're all clones, part of his "better way."

HarryTrotter

#29
Maybe that was a different Milles yet again.A runaway clone?
Doombot system.
Btw,the preview for CC Omega announces a new Spider-book spinning off from it.By Peter David and Mark Bagley.Sign me up for that.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer