Gateway comics and the conveyor belt to superheroes.

Started by daglob, September 26, 2016, 03:59:08 AM

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daglob

Once upon a time...

For years there was a kind of conveyor belt that carried kids from one kind of comic to another. I'm not talking about Dell to Archie to DC/Marvel, but the comics themselves. In the golden age, most titles were anthology books. You all know this, but have you really thought about it?

Originally, all comics were anthology books. As you all know, they originated as collections of newspaper strips. Under one cover, you might find combinations of Dick Tracy, Little Orphan Annie, Mutt and Jeff, Tarzan, Krazy Kat. Blondie, Mary Worth/Apple Mary, Steve Canyon, Maggie and Jiggs, The Phantom, Smilin' Jack, Terry and the Pirates, Smokey Stover, Buck Rogers... Comic strips for the whole family. When the publishers started putting original material in their books, even printing comics with all original material, they tended to resemble the newspaper reprint comics that came before.

Look at Action Comics #1 (from the entry at the GCD): we have Superman (superhero), The A-G Gang (western), Zatara (superhero again), South Sea Strategy (text adventure story), Sticky Mitt Stimson (humor), The Adventures of Marco Polo (historical), Pep Morgan (a boxing story), Scoop Scanlon (adventure/mystery/detective?) Tex Thompson (an adventure story, but Tex will eventually become a superhero), and a couple of fillers by Sheldon Moldorf and someone else. Marvel comic #1 (behind a Frank R. Paul cover; I didn't know that) you have The Human Torch (superhero), The Angel (based on The Saint, he is kind of a mystery/detective character with superhero aspirations), The Sub-Mariner (super anti-hero), The Masked Raider (western), Jungle Terror (adventure/jungle), Burning Rubber (text sports story), and Ka-Zar (jungle again).

Now, look, none of these golden age comics were submitted to The Comics Code, and very few complaints were ever made (or at least publicized). As I've suggested in a review of Seduction of the Innocent, comics were a convenient scapegoat to explain a lot of problems in the 1950s. One of the worst things Fredrick Wertham ever did was cause the CCA to come into existence. It pigeonholed comics as children's literature, and it wasn't until the 1970s that things began to change. But in a very real way, the CCA kept comics from being censored into extinction by legislation. Sort of a good news/bad news kind of thing. But comics had never been exclusively for children. Even Mickey Mouse had adventure stories. "Protecting our children" while draining the creativity from a medium is not really something to be proud of. I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember the whole stink about cartoon causing juvenile delinquency, but what irked me was that a lot of the cartoons they were blaming for misconduct were the same cartoon the adults had watched as kids, yet they didn't turn to crime, only their half-witted easily suggestible children would.

Then again, because you can do something is no reason to go it. Superman and Batman did not originally have a code against killing, neither did Doc Savage. But the iconic form of each of these characters does not kill. Superman was raised to value human life; Batman knows firsthand what kind of collateral damage killing someone can do; Doc decided that crime was a disease, and if he met criminals on their own terms, he was in danger of catching it (Monk, fortunately, didn't agree). The Phantom, The Shadow, and Wolverine do not kill needlessly. The Spider, however, is a good one for diving head first into situations that call for him to kill a lot of criminals; lots of criminals.

When I started reading comics, anthology books tended to be like Mysteries in Space, Adventures into the Unknown, or Space Adventures (when I started reading Marvel had already started sticking superheroes in their anthology books), pretty much different stories on a single theme. The same applied to war comics, western comics, humor books, and even romance mags. At that time, you did have the Dell/Gold Key as an entry point (and remember: they had funny animal, adventure, movie/TV adaptations, and superheroes), to graduate to Marvel, DC, Archie, and Charlton. I remember DC printing humor tiles, Fox and Crow, Jerry Lewis, Bob Hope, Sugar and Spike, Swing with Scooter... well... maybe not Scooter. There were usually one or two stories in each comic, some, like Detective or Action, had back-up series. The big draw in Detective and Action were Batman and Superman, not The Elongated Man and Supergirl. Marvel was changing their horror/SF anthologies and splitting them between two super heroes (a strategy brought about because DC was their distributor, and would only handle eight comics a month from them). With the loss of the original newspaper reprints (a few of which were being reprinted in books), individual comics became the gateway.

I was in the first grade in 1961, and started really reading comics in 1962. My mother saw no difference between Superman, Spiderman, Donald Duck, and Buggs Bunny, so we had them all (Never could warm to Millie the Model, never really read war comics or westerns). I started reading the pulp reprints of The Shadow and Doc Savage when I was 14, which was just about the right age I believe, to be followed by The Spider about a year later. Around 16 (1970) I started adding Warren comics to my library (although I never really read 1984/1994). I also started reading paperback science fiction and mysteries. Along the way, I quit reading Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, Timmy the Timid Ghost, Casper, and Archie and company. I also quit reading most DC Comics. I was on the conveyor belt.

The conveyor belt is gone. As others have pointed out, there are no real gateway comics anymore. Add to that the expense (figure out how much comics cost per page in the Golden, Silver, Bronze, and Modern age. Then figure out how much per page of art they cost; I did that once) and it is little wonder that new readers are few and far between.

Recent conversations have made me think about this. I'm not really saying anything new, just kind of putting it down in one place.

HarryTrotter

Did superheroes drown anything else?Well yeah,but there are still adventure and western and war titles out there.Its just that they tend to get a bit lost in the sea of superhero books.
IMO,its not that there are no gateway titles,its just that people have trouble buying them.Because lets face it,you dont go to a comic store unless you already have something to buy there.Problem lies more in the direct market then the publishers.Ofc,if a random soul does wander into a comic store,he/she will be welcomed by a ton of continuity,confusing numbering system and another ton of event comics.So the publishers also have their share of blame.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

BentonGrey

Interesting observation, DG.  It seems to me we're facing a bit of a catch-22.  You can't have a variety of books and subjects because only superhero books sell, and those not well, but you would have a better chance bringing in new readers with some more kiddy fare like Bugs Bunny and the like.  This certainly connects to our recent conversation in the DC thread.  We still have newspaper comics (my first intro into the medium), but with newspapers dying, those can't be counted on for much.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Talavar

Not to say anyone's old,  :P but... anthology books have been gone for a long time now.  I mean, I'm coming up on forty, and I don't remember them.  But to say that the conveyor belt is gone because anthology books are gone feels wrong to me simply because the comic book industry has been chugging along without them for awhile now.

Personally, I think cartoons are the conveyor belt now.  Superhero cartoons are what got me interested in comics

daglob

Quote from: Talavar on September 27, 2016, 03:08:18 AM
Not to say anyone's old,  :P but... anthology books have been gone for a long time now.  I mean, I'm coming up on forty, and I don't remember them.  But to say that the conveyor belt is gone because anthology books are gone feels wrong to me simply because the comic book industry has been chugging along without them for awhile now.

Personally, I think cartoons are the conveyor belt now.  Superhero cartoons are what got me interested in comics

That could very well be it. But is that sufficient to keep going? There are no Saturday morning cartoons anymore, although there are cartoon networks ( I enjoyed Boomerang). Hey, I remember when there were cartoons on network TV at night: Bugs Bunny, The Flintstones, The Jetsons, Bullwinkle, Calvin and the Colonel, and the occasional Wonderful World of Color.

I know things are changing, many of them technology driven, some socially driven, but will they continue to bring new readers in?

HarryTrotter

Once again,hardly.Digital sales would be a good way to bring in new readers,but that hasnt really taken off.Because a digital issue is still priced the same,but without any charm of the real thing.Ofc,if they were cheaper,it would undermine the pshysical sales,and they cant have that.
And a thought of offering something for free on their sites hasnt really crossed anyones mind at big 2.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

To be fair, That isn't ENTIRELY true. I don't know about DC, but I was surprised to find all of Marvel's Free Comic Book day books available digitally for free. Additionally, while you can't get every comic ever, Marvel's Unlimited service actually does have a decent sized backlog of books(it's like $9 a month, but that's pocket change when I'm paying $4 a comic), including stuff from about 6 months ago. It's how I've been reading all the old Spider-Man books.

But as Talavar says, the current method for getting kids and adults into comics is other media: Cartoons and Movies. The current crop of Marvel cartoons are pretty blatant about it, but even the movies help get people into the stories. It really goes to show how WB is mismanaging their company... DC's cartoons and TV shows do not serve to feed back into the comics AT ALL (Teen Titans is easily the most successful, and it came out at a time when the Titans looked NOTHING like the ones in the cartoon. And then there's the Arrowverse... Flash was the most comics based, but easily the most interesting character was Thawne, who was absent from the books for years).

Talavar

Quote from: daglob on September 27, 2016, 04:08:22 AM
Quote from: Talavar on September 27, 2016, 03:08:18 AM
Not to say anyone's old,  :P but... anthology books have been gone for a long time now.  I mean, I'm coming up on forty, and I don't remember them.  But to say that the conveyor belt is gone because anthology books are gone feels wrong to me simply because the comic book industry has been chugging along without them for awhile now.

Personally, I think cartoons are the conveyor belt now.  Superhero cartoons are what got me interested in comics

That could very well be it. But is that sufficient to keep going? There are no Saturday morning cartoons anymore, although there are cartoon networks ( I enjoyed Boomerang). Hey, I remember when there were cartoons on network TV at night: Bugs Bunny, The Flintstones, The Jetsons, Bullwinkle, Calvin and the Colonel, and the occasional Wonderful World of Color.

I know things are changing, many of them technology driven, some socially driven, but will they continue to bring new readers in?

While there may not be Saturday morning cartoons anymore, a kid with Netflix can binge-watch superhero cartoons until their parents wrestle the remote/tablet from their little hands.  Will it continue to bring in new readers?  I can't see why not.  I don't mean numbers are going to skyrocket or anything, but there's going to be some who want to check the comics out.

HarryTrotter

@Tomato How does paying subscription count as free?
And you still have to pay 3,99 for new releases,which are the things they are trying to sell.
On the other hand,at least its something.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

BentonGrey

Interesting points.  I agree, the main gateway to comics these days is other media, notably cartoons, but it's by no means a direct or certain path.  I remember reading about very, VERY modest gains in business at comic stores following comic movies, very modest and very brief.  The problem, as I maintained in the other thread, is a lack of suitable material and a lack of access.  'Mato's point about Marvel Unlimited is actually pretty telling.  Maybe it's a good service, but how are kids going to find out about it?  It isn't exactly widely known, judging by my own experience with young people and comics.  And I know a lot of parents who aren't too anxious for another subscription service.  We don't have clear connections between the things that grab kids' interest and the comics themselves, and Heaven knows that the physical books aren't where kids are.

Netflix offers some good cartoons a second lease on life, but we're losing the shared experience of watching the same shows at the same times.  It's still going to be something of a crapshoot whether or not kids discover, say, JLU.  The gate does exist, but it's narrow and the path it leads to is wandering and uncertain.  In fact, none of my friends' kids, who all LOVE superheroes from movies or TV, would have read a single comic if I hadn't given them to them.  They were aware that comics existed, in a vague sort of way, but they had no idea at all how to get to them.  There isn't even a LCS near us.  That's anecdotal, but I can't help but think that it's at least a bit representative. 
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

Oh, it's not, but I'd still count it as far superior to paying 4+ a comic issue, especially since I've read over 2 dozen books in less than a week of owning it. And, much like Netflix, you can have the one subscription for a household... So if your dad was into comics like mine was, it's far easier to introduce someone to comics that way.

That's another point that I think is overlooked too... I got into comics because my Dad was into comics, and it's something we bonded over. I imagine a lot of kids have that connection, even with parents who have long since given up reading them, but still loved the characters.

Pre-post edit (benton posted before I hit submit): It's even harder than you thing Benton. BTAS isn't even available on most subscription services (amazon was the only one that had it when I looked for it, and that's a HEFTY subscription at $99 a year) and the only DCAU shows that were on Netflix were Batman Beyond and JLU (As in post-Justice League JLU)

daglob

#11
As I've said before, I haunt some sites and newsgroups that post (mostly) public domain magazines and comics. These are available for the price of an ISP, and we are talking thousands of publications. Now, as for the comics, they are all hit and miss (just like modern comics). There are a few PD comics we would associate with Marvel and DC available. What would it be like if each of the Big 2 allowed some of theirreally old comics to be electronically distributed for free? The characters would still be copyrighted, so someone couldn't claim ownership of the character. How much revenue would the company lose in reprints? I know there are those people who would rather have a hard copy than an electronic copy (I see one in the mirror every morning. Yuck.).


HarryTrotter

#12
^Pretty much my point.They would hardly be losing anything at all,and it might even encourage people to buy the collected editions.
For example,on the official Cerebus site you can download the first 2 volumes(50 issues) for free.If you liked it,buy the others,if you didnt,no great loss.Whats stoping Marvel and DC from doing something like that?Or remember when Dark Horse had free comics on their MySpace page?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

I can see both sides of that one... On the one hand, there's no reason that the classic spider-man books shouldn't be out there for free. On the other... Servers that host this stuff cost money for upkeep. True, you could bypass that by running ads on the service (and lest you think that's absurd, I'd remind you that a site that hosts tons of illegal comic from does exactly that to support the site) but it's a catch 22... If you run ads, people complain about the ads, but if you run a subscription service people complain about that too.

Silver Shocker

Quote from: Tomato on September 27, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
Pre-post edit (benton posted before I hit submit): It's even harder than you thing Benton. BTAS isn't even available on most subscription services (amazon was the only one that had it when I looked for it, and that's a HEFTY subscription at $99 a year) and the only DCAU shows that were on Netflix were Batman Beyond and JLU (As in post-Justice League JLU)

The original Justice League was on American Netflix last year, but they took that off along with JLU. Batman: TAS used to be on Netflix Canada (not all of its incarnations, just the first two seasons or so) about two or three years ago, but it's gone now.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

BentonGrey

Excellent point, 'Mato.  It's even worse.  The very best superhero show of all time isn't available.  Even Avengers EMH USED to be on Netflix but is gone now.  Access is slipping away.

Good idea, DG.  Yeah, I think it would be a good thing to put at least SOME of those old comics that no-one is really buying out for free.  Of course, this is also predicated on having easy access to digital comics, which is still a problem.

As someone else already mentioned, the continuing cost of comics, even IF kids get into them, is a pretty big barrier.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

Personally, I think that we're rapidly reaching a point where comic books as we know them need to die in order to survive long term. We've reached a point where it's not insanely difficult to transmit them digitally, and the cost of doing that is FAR cheaper than the cost of printing the comics, and eats away at the "well it costs so much to print them!" That is constantly the defense for the $4+ price tag.

That being said... If I had ultimate power, the way I'd do things is that the first 12 issues of any series would be publically available a year after they were all initially published, with anything after that costing a small (maybe $2) monthly subscription fee per comic. That A. Gives people a proper introduction to the book before paying, B. Incentivise companies not to reboot every freaking two years (because they would be basically giving away comic books every time), and C. Generate more revenue long term than a subscription for the entire catalogue.

daglob

Girl Genius used to be a printed comic. They went to being a webcomic, and print collections for a reasonable price. They have said that they wish they had gone this route sooner.

I read 'em three times a week and have several of the collections (don't have the  all, got kinda sidetracked).

Tomato

Oh yeah, that's a pretty popular model for webcomics in general: Dumbing of Age, Dominic Deegan, Looking for Group, and others all work in a similar vein. I could totally also see that working for the big two... if they finally went for it.

BentonGrey

There'd still be a major problem of access, and it would, of course, probably finally destroy comic book stores.  That's inevitable, at any rate.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Tomato

I think most comic stores have been slowly transitioning away from being just about comic books anyway. I can't think of a single one I've ever been to that wasn't also selling games (warhammer, card games, etc.) toys, dice, specialty merchandise, or something along those lines. Hell, one of my favorite stores here in Vegas is practically a comic shop without the comic books... They mostly sell gaming stuff (such as Warhammer and DnD), paints, board games, card games, old game consoles and games, pop figures, etc. but no comics.

That being said, I disagree about it being an issue of access in that case. Webcomics are freely linked to, and pretty much anyone with a mobile device has access to a web browser to view them (not to mention, with the resources they have, Marvel and DC could EASILY make an app that accesses the web-comics). Most comics are "made for the trade" anyway, so I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the web comic model eventually adopted, at least in part.

daglob

#21
Publish the comic online either monthly or maybe a few pages a week (Phil Foglio somehow manages a little climax every three days, or at least once a week. Of course the story has been going on for years... Marvel Time ain't got nothing on him). Use Publish on Demand (like several pulp magazine reprint companies I deal with) and print a collection once a year (Hey! Bring back annuals!) of a year's worth of comic. I don't know what to do about subscriptions, but, yes, charge to read the new comics, something sensible. Have freebies, like maybe one week have The Galactus Saga and the Master Planner sequence, swap it out the next time for the first four or five issues of Daredevil or The Hulk, next week have some 1950s stories of Captain America and Sub-Mariner (maybe spiced up with a little Yellow Claw or Venus), follow that up with some John Severin westerns and a few Tales to Astonish. Offer Essential collections pretty much as they have been, maybe following up on a recent giveaway.

I can see that this might work. PoD means no real storage (although maybe have a few on hand for special occasions). BOTH companies must have a million pages that they couldn't really make much profit from. But after reading some Don Heck SF, you might like to read some more. And all those baroque scary tales by Steve Ditko... Or a few of Sid Greene's Star Rovers and some Bob Brown Space Ranger... or maybe Manhunter 2070 and the original Nightmaster. There's all this stuff they could give a taste away for free then collect in a Showcase Presents or Essential Edition...