Please login or register.

Login with email, password and session length
 

News:

Happy 15th Birthday, Freedom Force!


Author Topic: A New Engine chat  (Read 1458 times)

Offline Deaths Jester

  • Drunken Arse!!
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3681
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2017, 07:15:16 PM »
Firstly, welcome back, Bearded! :thumbup:

Can't believe I didn't say that last time :doh:

Secondly, how does everybody feel about squad size? I was thinking that perhaps five should be the squad limit rather than four. There have been many more times where I felt five people on a team would be more fun than just four. Namely trying to use teams like the New Teen Titans (Robin, Beast Boy, Starfire, Raven, and Cyborg), the Guardians (both the team in the movies and the originals), the original X-Men, and a few others here and there.

Perhaps a mode where there's no limit? That could get messy, though. Perhaps something like the Team Battle mode in FFX3 that lets you swap AI controlled teammates for player-controlled members would be a good option.

Maybe four or five, anything more and you're constantly swapping between characters.  That's part of the reason Irrational stayed with four - it was easier to keep track of them for a person playing the game.
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Offline spydermann93

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3815
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2017, 07:37:57 PM »
Yeah, I agree that's why they limited it, but I don't think five will be too much of a stretch.

At leat I believe that there should be an option that a user can enable that allows for more characters in a group. Total War has something similar where in Multiplayer or Custom Battles, you can double the size of unit slots in your army. While it may be clunky compared to the standard army size of 20, it's a fun option to have.

Perhaps for story purposes, though, we should stick with four.

Offline Epimethee

  • Patron god of afterthought
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2758
  • Currently in suspended animation
    • FFX add-on for FFvsTTR
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2017, 10:02:01 PM »
A larger squad size would work best if every character is always on-screen or if it's not real-time or if the AI is top notch (good luck with that one).
FFX add-on for FFvsTTR at ffx.freedomforceforever.com

Offline spydermann93

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3815
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2017, 10:39:46 PM »
A larger squad size would work best if every character is always on-screen or if it's not real-time or if the AI is top notch (good luck with that one).

True that

Offline Cyber Burn

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 7957
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2017, 12:41:18 AM »
If we go the "Sandbox " route, and allow for the type of customization that would let us use teams like The New Titans, or the original X-Men, then yeah, 5 is a good number. But honestly, I'd like to see where our story takes us before deciding between 4 or more Members.

Offline spydermann93

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3815
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2017, 12:52:18 AM »
If we go the "Sandbox " route, and allow for the type of customization that would let us use teams like The New Titans, or the original X-Men, then yeah, 5 is a good number. But honestly, I'd like to see where our story takes us before deciding between 4 or more Members.

I'm with you on this one. I think if we work on the first few parts of the story, we'll start getting a good idea of what we want to do in regards to team control. Personally, I'm fine with keeping it just like in FF, but I am also open to other ideas.

One thing that I wish FF had was more modes in the Rumble Room. FFX3 did a great job adding more, but I'm greedy and I want more :P Things like adjusting team size, selecting starting positions, and other fun modes to play is something that I would really like.

Offline Cyber Burn

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 7957
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2017, 02:41:20 AM »
A couple of quick questions (Kind of Noobish, I'm sorry):

1) Detourne_Me: You mentioned -
Quote
Metadata for hero files?
- can you elaborate on that? I don't think I've heard the term before.

2) SickAlice: You had mentioned -
Quote
extended genre options, like racing, fighting
- in regards to Racing, are you thinking something like Mario Kart? And for Fighting, are you thinking along the lines of Street Fighter?

Offline SickAlice

  • Virtual prophet and aspiring beet farmer
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1841
  • bing cherry
    • The Litterbox aka MeanJellybean
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2017, 08:57:08 AM »
Squad has to have a limit yeah, else too much hocus occurs. Four or six though...really don't see a large difference? I'd say relative option and maybe a call in character or something.

@Cyber_Burn: Pretty much that exactly. Or make a chess like game, whatever. I always thought it would be neat to be able to have the main as is but be able to stretch out to whatever. I know I've seen convert to fighting engine come up on and off over the years for that matter. So basically I guess thinking like Mortal Kombat Armageddon where there was this unlockable Kart mode or Shaolin Monks where the main game was an adventure but there was an unlockable Arena mode.

Mostly in our case though since I think anyone would want the focus to be the primary engine and game these wouldn't be as pronounced as all that, rather the capacity to do such a thing just available in the engine itself, or to make faux versions of a like kind. Like the way FF is already set-up it actually lends itself to an old school GTA style racing game or Micro Machines type when you think about it. Then just take two characters fighting as they already do, moves are there, FX are already in place but add a little more control and camera angles (thinking like Superhero TV here).

At any rate though not that extensive, just something to look into or more maybe leave the door open to be able to add-on such a thing after the first primary engine and game are all said and done.

Offline Deaths Jester

  • Drunken Arse!!
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3681
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2017, 01:48:54 PM »
I gotta agree with we need to hammer out a story before we splay out all the potential thingies we can do and want.....but I'm weird that way...
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Offline Podmark

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 9703
  • meow
    • Hero Force
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2017, 11:39:21 PM »
From a design point of view I'd make the game capable of handling a much larger squad number. What that number is should depend on UI and performance constraints. Doing so just gives you more options long term. The actual finished product could lock it to 4 or 5 or whatever.

Get my skins at:
HeroForce
my Google page

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

  • Lord of Procrastination
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 7674
    • Freedom Force Forever
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2017, 01:34:19 AM »
If I were designing it, I'd go more for a setting without pre-set heroes.  That is, have it designed around custom heroes, with a few pre-designed ones for those who want them.

For the story--how about a setting where the city's main superhero group has been killed off or captures, or scattered in some way.  Your character is the grandson of an old retired hero groups who with the help and device of your mentor grandfather, reactivates an old team base and tried to put together a new team to save the city.  I've been playing Invisible Inc some recently, and I'd love a semi-randomized campaign like that, with some preset villains and groups and a few prescripted missions allong the way.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

speakingofgeek.freedomforceforever.com

Offline SickAlice

  • Virtual prophet and aspiring beet farmer
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1841
  • bing cherry
    • The Litterbox aka MeanJellybean
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2017, 06:01:11 PM »
I like the idea of leaving peeps like you in charge of plot. That to date has never been my strong suit. In RPG even I usually have other people write my characters backstories and I work out character designs. AA is levels above me in this though, hell if he'd be up to it I'd say let him be Art Manager and establish the look of everything.

Else reporting back I'm making fast strides in conversion knowledge. Going to need time out there though, like a week or two, just to study and experiment with various game engines and such. Luckily Netimmerse itself is pretty cumbersome despite dissenting points of view about that and follows a general tree structure as opposed to scrambled types that are broken up like a sprite sheet. I'll post again when I get some concrete stuff down.

* Also and this popped in my head just now but the need for base models is going to come up. Clearly we don't want to recycle Irrationals work. However luckily our community has already put years to making it's own models in. I'm thinking ask Gren and JP and use their basic models? Also though given trying to upgrade graphics perhaps go 4x and the face count to make it easier for people wanting to sculpt the base as well to cut down on jaggles.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 06:35:08 PM by SickAlice »

Offline Cyber Burn

  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 7957
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2017, 06:45:19 PM »
* Also and this popped in my head just now but the need for base models is going to come up. Clearly we don't want to recycle Irrationals work. However luckily our community has already put years to making it's own models in. I'm thinking ask Gren and JP and use their basic models? Also though given trying to upgrade graphics perhaps go 4x and the face count to make it easier for people wanting to sculpt the base as well to cut down on jaggles.


What about the work that Alex and Tommy were doing? Did they pull away from the Nif Format? Could we contact them about this?

Offline SickAlice

  • Virtual prophet and aspiring beet farmer
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1841
  • bing cherry
    • The Litterbox aka MeanJellybean
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2017, 07:24:05 PM »
Love toms work thing is he made a pretty complex and unique type of nif. Mostly and most hexers discovered this it doesn't play well and can be tricky a bit. Gren's on the other hand stayed pretty close to the original structure. I say it too as a matter of looking into conversion to Unity. I can see Gren's involving a lot less scripting and to align to the new engine.

Offline Deaths Jester

  • Drunken Arse!!
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3681
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2017, 10:56:25 PM »
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Offline Epimethee

  • Patron god of afterthought
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2758
  • Currently in suspended animation
    • FFX add-on for FFvsTTR
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2017, 11:06:53 PM »
If I were designing it, I'd go more for a setting without pre-set heroes.  That is, have it designed around custom heroes, with a few pre-designed ones for those who want them.

For the story--how about a setting where the city's main superhero group has been killed off or captures, or scattered in some way.  Your character is the grandson of an old retired hero groups who with the help and device of your mentor grandfather, reactivates an old team base and tried to put together a new team to save the city.  I've been playing Invisible Inc some recently, and I'd love a semi-randomized campaign like that, with some preset villains and groups and a few prescripted missions allong the way.
Agreed on the emplhasis on customs, even if this is certainly harder to pull off. Your story setting seems an excellent approach for how we'd need the game to start.


Quick status: FWIW, Still going through the docs and tutorials, and planning to continue doing so for the next few weeks. Some stuff is definitively hard (lots and lots of things to learn… some of which is definitively not intuitive), but there appears to be fascinating possibilities.
FFX add-on for FFvsTTR at ffx.freedomforceforever.com

Offline Epimethee

  • Patron god of afterthought
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2758
  • Currently in suspended animation
    • FFX add-on for FFvsTTR
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2017, 11:14:33 PM »
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...
Aren't we a bit self-deprecating?

Beside, even if AA (which hasn't participated in this thread so far) or anyone else is part of the team, we're going to need many talented artists!
FFX add-on for FFvsTTR at ffx.freedomforceforever.com

Offline Deaths Jester

  • Drunken Arse!!
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3681
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2017, 11:51:06 PM »
Not being self-depricating but trying to emphasis how "off putting" that comment about making AA the art director and designing everything sounded to me and possibly other skinners. Why can't all the skinners be part of designing it and all be the "art director"? Just saying...

To be honest to everyone, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about doing this....no definite reason per say just a combo of stuff.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 05:21:05 AM by Deaths Jester »
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Offline daglob

  • Shape-Shifting Silly-Putty Android
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 7611
  • Da Glob
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2017, 05:19:19 AM »
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...

C'mon; we'll always need you... as a bad example at the very least.

Offline SickAlice

  • Virtual prophet and aspiring beet farmer
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1841
  • bing cherry
    • The Litterbox aka MeanJellybean
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2017, 03:19:34 PM »
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...

Stop bashing yourself. First off your more talented then your giving yourself credit for and your just as knowledgeable as any other person here. You also have more to contribute then just texturing, you already have just in the way of opinion and know-how in this very thread.

Else we're talking about a game and engine from the ground up here. To pull that off takes an entire team with many people working together on every facet of it, a list of credits if you will. In other words we will definitely need a whole team of people doing the texturing. Likewise modelling, scripting, animation and everything else.

And not sure if he is anyways, I was saying we should ask and more not to texture everything rather to come up with designs. You know like how the costumes should look and everything. He just has this skill for making a streamlined look to things where the visuals are immediately recognizable and memorable and also jump off the screen is all I'm saying. We'd still need people to actually make the skins based on his ideas however, as well all the glow, refl and bump maps for that matter.

We need you DJ and your valuable to us, always have been and always will. Hell truth is when learning to make better textures I actually studied you stuff because you knew how to make things elegant. Also I learned how to do Spider-man's costume webbing from your skins. No one person here has every been more important then the other, we all contribute as a team and you do too, always have. Give yourself more credit.



Offline Deaths Jester

  • Drunken Arse!!
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3681
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2017, 03:36:06 PM »
Also I learned how to do Spider-man's costume webbing from your skins.

Not sure how you learned that from anything I did, seeing as I've never skinned Spidey....or much of any costume's with webbing....oh well, not important...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 02:24:44 PM by Deaths Jester »
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Offline SickAlice

  • Virtual prophet and aspiring beet farmer
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 1841
  • bing cherry
    • The Litterbox aka MeanJellybean
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2017, 05:35:10 PM »
Forgive my brain or lack thereof. Point is you were someone I looked up to and that inspired me to learn more about all this, credit were it's deserved. Sorry for my demeanor too, but if someone else talked smack about you I would tear them apart. Your part of the family here mate and your worth your skills just as the rest of you are. Should congratulate yourself. Also I honestly believe your smart enough that you could teach yourself a new skill. There was a time when I felt like you did. I didn't do squat for models, animations, levels, FX or much else than skinning and at that point all I was really doing was coloring provided base textures. The resolve was to learn some new things and luckily I had a forum of great teachers. Doing that cured of me of feeling the way I did. Just a suggestion anyways but really why not? If you have the urge to be able to do more develop another skill. It turns it to be easier than it looks imo, especially when others have already paved the path and made nice programs to do such things with. Anyways I value you and so does everyone here.

Offline daglob

  • Shape-Shifting Silly-Putty Android
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 7611
  • Da Glob
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2017, 06:09:37 PM »
Forgive my brain or lack thereof. Point is you were someone I looked up to and that inspired me to learn more about all this, credit were it's deserved. Sorry for my demeanor too, but if someone else talked smack about you I would tear them apart. Your part of the family here mate and your worth your skills just as the rest of you are. Should congratulate yourself. Also I honestly believe your smart enough that you could teach yourself a new skill. There was a time when I felt like you did. I didn't do squat for models, animations, levels, FX or much else than skinning and at that point all I was really doing was coloring provided base textures. The resolve was to learn some new things and luckily I had a forum of great teachers. Doing that cured of me of feeling the way I did. Just a suggestion anyways but really why not? If you have the urge to be able to do more develop another skill. It turns it to be easier than it looks imo, especially when others have already paved the path and made nice programs to do such things with. Anyways I value you and so does everyone here.

Offline Epimethee

  • Patron god of afterthought
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2758
  • Currently in suspended animation
    • FFX add-on for FFvsTTR
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2017, 02:07:48 AM »
FWIW, still digging into Unity tutorials. This is going to take a while… or three.
FFX add-on for FFvsTTR at ffx.freedomforceforever.com

Offline naitvalis

  • Sr. Member
  • Posts: 407
Re: A New Engine chat
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2017, 06:40:14 AM »
Nice thread here guys, i guess every member of this community dreamed about an ff3, and of course to use a free engine like unity looks like the better way to do it with the community resources...or maybe not?
reflecting on this argument i've thought that basically there is nothing wrong with the  :ff: games, they are really far better then most of the games that exit now in the 2017! (in most of them you just need a "quick click skill" to play, really no creativity is needed) so i think  most of us just want to implement things into ff (the list of things is obviously very long :rolleyes:) and maybe import more detailed meshs for maps and characters, but certainly we don't want to lost the compatibility with all the works we have already done.
The easy way to do it is to have the permission to use ff code or whatever a programmer call it, to use all the the ff software and teach him new things, now i think that maybe a letter from all the members of this community to whoever hold this licence could be a nice start, after all if i was  this person and i could have a game to sell for free i was happy, and probably i would give an hand to such project .
Also have the licence to build a real ff3 sequel could gave the opportunity of work on a story that involve the characters of the other 2 games.