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Author Topic: Question Regarding Current Art Programs  (Read 721 times)

Offline Cyber Burn

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Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« on: June 16, 2017, 10:47:37 PM »
Hey Guys and Gals, I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, if not, could a Mod please place this in the correct spot?

Basically, both my Daughter and my Niece are Artists, and are looking to upgrade from using a Pencil/Paper and Mouse/GIMP or PaintDotNet, to a Tablet of some sort. Both Girls want to take their Art to a more Professional, and Digital, Level. Unfortunately, they're stuck with me, who has no idea where to begin looking, or what kind of price range this is going to take us to.

If anyone has any suggestions, ideas, weblinks, etc. that they could point me towards, there are a pair of Imaginative, Creative, and Artistic Girls that would be extremely grateful...and hopefully, one day, have their names on their own Books.

Thank you all in advance. You'll make me Dad and Uncle of the Year.  :D

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 11:40:14 PM »
Well, if they want to go the Photoshop route on a budget then I'd suggest GIMP which is a free prog and is almost as strong as PS. If they want to go with the pro progs, you're looking at $600+ just for either Photoshop or Painter unless they get a hold of an older version. As for stylluses and such, the prices range all over the place. While I've never used any - the mouse is what I prefer - the wacom and cintiq brands are what I see a lot of the pros use. Thing is, they run on the expensive side from what I hear.
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 11:58:34 PM »
Forgot to mention: While cheaper, I'd avoid Photoshop Elements as it's very weak as an art program. And for the sake of sanity AVOID PHOTOSHOP CC OR ANY MONTHLY PAY VERSIONS OF PHOTOSHOP! You have to be logged in to use it, you'll pay way more than the prog is worth in a year, you never actually own the prog, and the minute you miss a payment you've lost all your Photoshop abilities!
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Offline daglob

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2017, 12:22:53 AM »
I've had Wacom tablets for... is it really 20 years? There used to be a "cheap" one around $35 new, maybe $25 refurbished, but they don't even make those anymore (I had to give it up because they quit making mice and stylus' for it, and I wore them out). I've got a little Bamboo that works pretty good.

Lately, because of people here talking about it, I've been tying to do some stuff with a mouse, like I used to. I figure that it's a skill worth having. Still, it's hard to beat drawing with a pencil compared to a bar of soap.

Offline Panther_Gunn

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 05:00:54 AM »
Forgot to mention: While cheaper, I'd avoid Photoshop Elements as it's very weak as an art program. And for the sake of sanity AVOID PHOTOSHOP CC OR ANY MONTHLY PAY VERSIONS OF PHOTOSHOP! You have to be logged in to use it, you'll pay way more than the prog is worth in a year, you never actually own the prog, and the minute you miss a payment you've lost all your Photoshop abilities!

I will echo what DJ said about Elements.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure you can even find a current copy of Photoshop that isn't a monthly subscription anymore.  However, I'm not sure what has been added to more recent versions of Photoshop (i.e.: within the last 10 years) that are really that fundamentally different than an older version, and worth the price.

I do know that Photoshop CS2 is essentially free now, ever since their validation server for it died and it would have cost them more than it was worth to rebuild it.  They provided links to the downloads and a special reg code so that it would work without talking to their server (just need to make sure to tell it to never look for updates, since it won't find them).
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Offline daglob

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 01:42:46 PM »
A few months back I went looking for a newer version of PS and could not find a way to buy one from Adobe, just a daily "rent" fee.

Offline SickAlice

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 03:28:58 PM »
Agreed with the others. Avoid CC PS versions, or any CC Adobe for that matter and stay to CS#. CS2 is again free and pretty much any plugins needed for  :ff: and that you'll find in tutorials are made for that one. Higher number versions imo do not offer much in the way of improvements anyways and the gui just becomes less convenient over versions, so stick with CS2 especially if it's for someone just getting into it. Also works very well with Wacom here.


Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 08:55:06 PM »
I've got more to say about Photoshop and a bit about other progs but don't have the time just now to post. Just saying...will be a giant post coming sometime.
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2017, 01:54:39 AM »
Thanks guys, it looks like we may be sticking with GIMP. But as far as Tablets go, is Wacom the main name brand?

DJ, I'd still like to see your big post, see about eventual other options.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2017, 05:24:27 PM »
(This is not the big post...)

Wacom is the industry standard for styllus/tablets and they have a wide range of them. There are a few other brands out there but they don't get the coverage that Wacom does - mainly cause Wacom has been doing things very well for a long time.

I'd advise you look into subscribing to ImagineFX magazine. It's a Brit mag that covers the fantasy/sci-fi art industry and reviews programs and such. Truthfully, you should get it because each issue is filled with tutorials and artist insights that range across the art gamut - from anatomy tutorials to creating a fantasy landscape to what's currently going on in the industry to traditional artwork. It's a bit pricey for 13 issuer (about $100 a year of print version, I think), due to shipping, but it's def worth it! 
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Offline Epimethee

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2017, 11:01:38 PM »
The reco depends on your daughter and niece's ages and what kind of art they want to do; it also depends on current hardware and budget.

For younger artists wanting to draw and paint, simple and fun should be the goal. In that case, Corel Painter Essentials could be great.

If they're older and want to get into art in college, especially design, then you should probably bite the bullet and go for Photoshop (+ maybe Illustrator), as it's the industry standard. No, I don't like the idea of monthly payments, but at least it's much cheaper than the $800 Photoshop used to cost and which lasted maybe 3 years before you had to upgrade; pro tool, pro price. Alternatives include Corel Draw and Affinity Photo; both are solid, but not much used by the mainstream pro design community. I can't comment on Gimp, as it's been many years since I last checked (it certainly didn't compare favourably to Photoshop at the time, apart from on price).

If they're into web design (rather than digital illustration) and on Macs (the standard for professional 2D designers, even if Windows has progressed a lot), you could also look into Sketch, which is becoming the new tool of choice fast. Note that all of these programs should have educational rebates.

BTW, Wacoms are nice, but being able to see directly what you draw is much more natural; if money is no object, the latest iPad Pro + Apple Pencil  + something like Affinity Photo is probably the nec plus ultra (cheaper and better than the Cintiq).
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 04:03:11 AM »
If they go the Ipad way, I'd encourage them to go with ProCreate instead. It's got more ability under the hood and a longer track record...which I'll talk more about in the big post.

As for the "seeing" that Epi mentioned, many of Wacoms devices nowadays include screen picture displays or some form of touchscreen ability...if need be I can ramble about what's out there in a future post.

Whether they go game graphic work or more "art" (book covers, film, etc) work, you'll find that the computer side of things is becoming more an even split on Windows/Mac. It used to be a Mac dominated world but I've seen a definite uptick in those using Windows (and on rare occassions Linux) in lately. Course, I'm talking from the freelance and tiny studios doing contract game concepting position...within the larger studios, my info is a bit sparser.

Anyways, still working on getting the post together but I'll try to get it up before the end of the week.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 04:19:13 AM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Ouflah

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2017, 01:26:57 PM »
If they go the Ipad way, I'd encourage them to go with ProCreate instead.
This. Procreate is an extremely powerful and versatile app. It's my favorite drawing program-- I use it so much that now when I draw with regular pencil and paper I sometimes instinctively two-finger tap to undo.  :lol:
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Offline SickAlice

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2017, 03:44:23 PM »
Ya, Wacom is the industry standard for drawing tablets. I lucked out and was given one as a gift a few years back. Though most people use tablets as there personal computer anyways now so it's sort of null and void. A drawing tablet really only introduced the features that weren't present and are now in tablets anyways so it's sort of obsolete.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 08:07:28 PM »
Price ranges on drawing tablets run form about $30 (Huion's Graphic table "kit") to $2000 (Wacom Cintiq 22HD Touch Interactive Pen Display (DTH2200) - which is a def pro model).  Most of Wacom's entry level stuff is ranges around the $60 (Wacom Bamboo CTL471 Pen Tablet for PC/MAC) to $100 (Wacom Intuos Art Pen and Touch digital graphics, drawing & painting tablet - small size, three versions available) range.  IF you wanted to go a bit more pro than entry level stuff or were looking for a little lower price on the higher end stuff, I'd consider a looking into a refurbished Wacom perhaps - you can save a bit of money there and they still work pretty well.  Or you could do like I do and stick with the mouse and just upgrade it....it's cheaper but if you want them to really explore their art side and they have some background in drawing/traditional techniques already then I'd go with the drawing tablets.  Mice are great but it takes a lot of extra time to create what some folks can with a tablet, plus you have to change your style of doing things with a mouse unless you originally began with it.  There are top-grade artists out there who only use a mouse and keyboard (many come from places where getting a hold of a drawing tablet is next to impossible or are like me where the only tablet you had a chance at buying were out of financial reach so they stuck with the mouse and never moved past it) but most artists you some type of drawing tablet or IPad nowadays. (Is beginning to ponder why he's always the one coming up with this stuff.........hmmm...... :P)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 08:54:22 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Epimethee

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2017, 12:48:13 AM »
Coincidently, if the software need is indeed light, the aforementioned Corel Painter Essentials is available on HumbleBundle.com right now (along with other stuff) for ~$9. Mind you, their server seems to be experiencing very heavy loads, so a bit of patience is required.
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 12:53:12 AM »
This is more what they're looking at right now. I think both want to be able to Draw on the Tablet, and see what they are doing as they're doing it. Both are mainly used to drawing with Pencil/Paper. Both are Windows Girls, and will probably stay that way, mainly because I've been pushing them to use Google Docs.

Quote
As for the "seeing" that Epi mentioned, many of Wacoms devices nowadays include screen picture displays or some form of touchscreen ability...if need be I can ramble about what's out there in a future post.

Quote
Whether they go game graphic work or more "art" (book covers, film, etc) work, you'll find that the computer side of things is becoming more an even split on Windows

Coincidently, if the software need is indeed light, the aforementioned Corel Painter Essentials is available on HumbleBundle.com right now (along with other stuff) for ~$9. Mind you, their server seems to be experiencing very heavy loads, so a bit of patience is required.

Corel Painter? Is that what was previously Paint Shop Pro?

I really appreciate everyone's input here. Thank you (About a thousand times over).


Offline Epimethee

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2017, 01:13:19 AM »
> Corel Painter? Is that what was previously Paint Shop Pro?
Unless they merged the two products, no: Corel Painter was born as Fractal Design Painter. It was the first commercial “paint” program to really emulate real-life painting (its original packaging used an actual can of paint).
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2017, 01:45:16 AM »
Painter and Paint Shop Pro are two different progs. Painter is a pro grade prog with a pro grade price while PSP has become more of a photo editting and hobby prog. I'm torn on recommending Painter Essentials because it's a bit like Photoshop Essentials - a heavily watered down, hobbyist version of the bigger prog and they both leave out some major tools/features that are very useful. The price though is right and it can give them an early taste of Painter.

Will be posting part 1 (going to break things up to make it easier on everyone) of big post tomorrow.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:10:52 AM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Epimethee

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2017, 02:35:17 AM »
I'm torn on recommending Painter Essentials because it's a bit like Photoshop Essentials - a heavily watered down, hobbyist version of the bigger prog and they both leave out some major tools/features that are very useful.
Obviously we don't know the girls ages, but I'm guessing they're not getting into college or university for a few years. If I'm right, a full-featured and complex app might hinder more than help, as the learning curve might turn them off digital art.
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2017, 03:08:13 AM »
My Daughter is going on 16, my Niece on 18. Both have been Drawing for as long as I can remember, and I've been pushing them towards Digital Art for quite some time. They're both finally taking the leap, so now I want to make sure that they're able to get off on the right foot. They both already know that they want a Tablet to Draw on, but other than that, they're not sure what else they need. I suggested that they play around with GIMP and PaintDotNet, just so that they get the feel of using a Digital Format. Other than that though, I know nothing.

Offline daglob

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 03:48:18 AM »
CB's suggestion is a good one. Let them play with Paint.net or GIMP and give them an idea of what is possible. There used to be a series of books entitled "Learn (Photoshop, Illustrator, Corel Draw, whatever) in 24 hours", or something like that. There was another, similar series, but the title escapes me. I thought both books were very useful for the basics.

CB: If your nieces go into commercial art, don't let them neglect pen and paper. I worked on a job with a bunch of college students who, if the power went out, would have been unable to draw a (reasonably) straight line. It was sad, but I think their classes might have been taught that way.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 03:53:32 AM by daglob »

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2017, 05:11:38 AM »
DG: That's why I had mentioned ImagineFX, they cover different areas within the hndustry and usually have tutorials and tips for multtiple progs and traditional media, from basic stuff to advanced - though they still have issuses that are just Photoshop tuts sometimes.

CB: I'm guessing you'd like a rundown on drawing tablets by Wacom and other's too?
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2017, 05:42:24 AM »
DG: That's why I had mentioned ImagineFX, they cover different areas within the hndustry and usually have tutorials and tips for multtiple progs and traditional media, from basic stuff to advanced - though they still have issuses that are just Photoshop tuts sometimes.

CB: I'm guessing you'd like a rundown on drawing tablets by Wacom and other's too?

That would be extremely awesome DJ! And even more appreciated. Thank you!!!

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 06:06:13 PM »
(This is part 1 of the big post wherein I tell the story of why Adobe kicked CS out and went with CC plus a look at some other programs out there.  It will take me a while to put together a rundown on the drawing tablet/styluses out in the market because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the programs right now.)

Gather round you young ones and listen as the old man tells the tale of Adobe and the evil it perpetuated on the art community...

Back in 2013, Adobe put all their image programs into one thing, which they called the Adobe Creative Cloud, and turned to the idea of monthly rental fees.  Now instead of buying Adobe Photoshop and owning it outright, you had to pay a certain fee (the fees range depending on what you want - in the beginning to get Photoshop you had to pay the maximum which gave you access to everything). While it meant that your Creative Cloud version of Photoshop is always on the cutting edge, it also means that missing a payment equals losing all the programs.

Why did they go this route? Well, it turns out that Adobe felt they were not getting enough money out of just outright selling the program to the artists.  They pointed to the fact that some folks – myself included – would buy say, Photoshop 7 when it was new and never buy another version of Photoshop because they got all they needed out of that version (yes, I'm still using Photoshop 7 – for the few things I need Photoshop for, it's perfect). So, in comes the money grabbing system of Adobe Creative Cloud. 

When it was first implement, a lot of artists gave Adobe the finger.  Many who had been extremely loyal to Adobe's products and had updated their Photoshop CS programs to CS6 stopped updating their stuff.  Even now, a lot of those same artists are using Photoshop CS6 and most tutorials involving Photoshop online nowadays are primarily for CS6, not CC. Those of us that had kept the older programs or felt truly screwed over by Adobe, jumped ship completely and went to programs such as Painter, GIMP, ArtRage, etc.  While Photoshop is still the mainstay of the industry – due in large part to being around the longest – the other programs, esp Painter (who is the other major mainstay in the industry), have gained a lot more support over the past few years.  Why? It comes down tho the fact that with these programs you still own them so if times get lean financially, you still are able to create art unlike with CC.

Since the implementation of Adobe's Creative Cloud, the art industry has started to go through what some call a digital art revolution.  More programs are showing up and artists are tinkering with different programs trying to get away from the Photoshop standard.  While the big companies and some of the richer freelancers are using Photoshop CC, a lot have gone elsewhere which has encouraged the programmers to break out new ideas. 

I had planned on doing this next part in one fell swoop but there are just so many programs out right now (thus the “digital art revolution” mention above), I can't cover everything at once.  Instead, I'm going to break things up into a few posts over the next few weeks, This will allow me to go through what is currently out there right now, read up on what's currently going on with certain programs, and write up my own loose ideas for everyone to digest without rushing through things and leaving something out.

So without further ado, here's the first batch of programs out in the digital art industry not called Adobe CC along with a  watered down view of them:


Painter – While considered the other art industry standard, Painter doesn't have as large a following as Photoshop does.  Part of that has to do with the fact that while Photoshop's always been about art “manipulation”, Painter has always revolved around painting.  What I mean when I say that Painter is about painting, it's about recreating the look and feel of traditional art (pen, paper, paint, etc) digitally. Thus, you'll find more artists using Painter who were trained in traditional art or who are transitioning from traditional to digital – I don't fit that situation but I still prefer Painter. If you want brushes that emulate watercolors, acrylics, oils, and other such tradition styles or if you want to do glazes over your art – then Painter, while expensive and at times has a steep learning curve (Corel did a lot with Painter 2017, the most recent edition, to ease that curve quite a bit and make the interface a bit more user friendly), is the one that many in the art world would point you to. It's got more support and a longer lineage than some of the other “traditional painting” programs that follow plus you can save you files in multiple formats that are easily transferred over to Photoshop (such as PSD, TGA, etc). Current version and Price – Corel Painter 2017 (Mac/PC); about $ 429, though you can get an educational discount that bring sit down to about $300

ProCreate – This one is an Apple Ipad only program/app but what it lacks in platform, it makes up for in ability and  is quickly becoming more prevalent  within the art industry.  Originally intended as a portable sketch and paint app for artists, the developers have spent a lot of time in the last few versions in making it into a pro grade program.  Straight off you get 128 customization brushes that range from traditional media to spray paints to the good old Round brush we all know and sometimes love. The most recent version – 3.2 – allows you to import Photoshop documents into it and keep the files layers and blend modes as well as upping the layer count that ProCreate allows.  Heck, you can even record and playback your painting with some new video capabilities all for less than $10.  Now, one thing is Procreate version 3.2 is a bit of a resource hog and requires you to have the most recent Ipad Pro and also encourages the Apple Pencil.  If you have the money for that, then this is THE art app for pro artists in need of mobility. Current version and Price – ProCreate 3.2; about $6.00 after you get an Ipad and such

Rebelle – This program is the new kid on the block – having been around for only 3 to 4 years and on only it's second version – and it's looking to try to unset some of the big dogs like Painter.  Much like Painter, Rebelle is about recreating traditional media digitally and in some places like watercolour (it allows you to actually blow and dry the paint over a certain amount of time if you want) and acrylics it outpaces Painter and for half the price.  There are a few problems, though, with it.  While your able to tilt the canvas to make the “wet” media run, drip and control how it dries, you have to be on the ball at all times or else you end up messing up what you were working extremely fast. The other big problem is Rebelle devours resources like nobody's business.  All the math running behind the program's painting process is extremely complicated and computing even 25 layers of work - including water simulation, diffusion, wetting, and drying plus the watercolour effects – can cause anything weaker than a top of the line Intel I5 or similar AMD processor to scream in pain as it comes to a crawl that makes a snail look fast.  Now, their current version – Rebelle 2  - sped things up a bit thanks to some new OpenGL brushes and the company that puts it out is still tinkering. You are still going to need a pretty strong computer to run this Rebelle right now though - making the initial enticing “half of what Painter costs” price less palatable when you realize you can run Painter relatively fast and stable on a lesser computer. Current version and Price – Rebelle 2.0 (Mac/PC); about $90

 ArtRage – ArtRage was originally started out as another Painter clone but amazingly very early on the developers realized that it was best to work on recreating one traditional piece of media as best they could before going on to work on another one.  So back in 2007, the company launched ArtRage as a straightforward oil-painting program and they did it right – making the flow and textures of the oil paint just like the actual malleable medium.  Since then, ArtRage's developers have continued to add more to it.  Currently on version 4, ArtRage now includes a full complement of pastel and pencil tools (I refer to them as tools because unlike in Photoshop or such, each one acts completely different so it's a much bigger leap from going from a Felt pen to an Oil brush than just choosing a different-shaped brush), perspective guides, and a host of other things.  Oh, and that Ipad mentioned earlier? If you got one of those or an Android tablet, ArtRage can link that up with your desktop allowing you to record what you are doing and allowing you to scale your mobile paintings up to any resolution you want for printing. On the Ipad/Android it's about equivalent in price as ProCreate is but if I were you, I'd double check that because they just released a new version about a month ago. Current version and Price – ArtRage 5(Mac/PC) - just released a month a go, so I don't have much info on it, and you might be able to find a free download of ArtRage 4 online if you look around but that might just be a rumor; about $80

Clip Studio Paint – Don't let the name fool you, this program is used by a lot few comic book artists.  Formally called Manga Studio before Smith Micro bought it up, Clip Studio Paint is aimed squarely for comic artists and animators with Perspective Rulers (while Photoshop has that now, this program had it in the beginning), faster flatting, a dedicated too to add tones (aka Letratone, or Benday dots) to artwork, and a non-destructive method of converting any layer into a blue line with one single button press.  The price on it depends on how much you want to do comic work – if you are a hobbyist go with the much cheaper Clip Studio Paint Pro but for those that want to truly be a comic artist, spend the extra money and go with the Clip Studio Paint EX edition.  One thing is, Clip Studio Paint is a  niche market program (comic artists and animators) and it's interface and tools cater to them. It might be perfect for what they want to do or it might be nothing more but a place to start – it all depends on them with this program. Current version and Price – Clip Studio Art Pro/Clip Studio EX (Mac/PC); about $50 for Pro/ $220 for EX

« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 02:26:55 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2017, 07:58:48 PM »
Wow, I have a lot of reading to do.

Actually, this is something that we may want to consider sticking.

Offline daglob

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2017, 08:01:03 PM »
Good idea. Maybe when it's finished DJ can do a version that you can post at the FF Resources group, too.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2017, 08:40:02 PM »
When I get finished?!?! The minute I finish this thing I'll probably have to go back and review the one's I've already talked about because a new version will have come out.  And these are just five of them...I've got a good eight or nine to go, for sure...not counting the tablet/styli.

Edit: Strike 8 or 9 and make that 11 progs, one of which is a freebie that might blow GIMP away in ability and all. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 03:41:59 AM by Deaths Jester »
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.

Offline daglob

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2017, 09:01:54 PM »
One of us can cut and paste...

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Question Regarding Current Art Programs
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2017, 01:11:26 AM »
Well, once I'm done with this run, I guess I can cut and paste the stuff while also removing the current version and price parts as those are bound to change. I can even post that in a seperate post so the mods could sticky that instead of this long rambling stuff but that's up to you guys and the mods. I should have the next part ready by the middle of the week if all goes well...
Avatar picture originally a Brom painting entitled Marionette.