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Author Topic: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk  (Read 8108 times)

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2018, 03:38:30 PM »
Hey, I was just running with my character's anger and confusion with the card toss. He was venting and not thinking. Thought I was supposed to be rping. :P

As for me, I run weird hours...
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2018, 04:12:45 PM »
Holding this spot to talk about powers and to give Reep ideas on rejiggering Cat's and Unko's as well as PC PLs latter in the day.

EDIT:  Okay, concerning the object damage, Reep, see page 156 of the Hero Handbook as well as the GM section of said handbook for info on handling that and the idea of out of combat stuff.

Concerning Unko's character powers, the wall-crawling is an easy one.  Just add a movement (wall crawl) to his form which will only cost an extra point.  The real problem area is going to be his acidic bite/acid venom because the cost is going to be pretty high.  I'd consider combining parts of the Venom power (pg 16 of Power Profiles) with that of the Corrosive power (pg 63 of Power Profiles) to get what you are looking for.  Depending on how you build it, it's going to cost between 3 to 5 points per rank though, which is going to throw off the reworking quite a bit...see later in this post for suggestions on getting around that.

As for Cat's Shatter ability, I'd look into either changing it over to the Shatter power (pg 167 of Power Profiles).  That one affects objects only and would work for what he's already used it as...that and it's not the most expensive change over either..I think 2 to 3 points per rank.

Now, to mitigate what could be a massive point swing with powers and needing to get rid of advantages or points elsewhere to make that happen, might I suggest moving the PL level up to around PL 9 (somewhere around 130 and 140 points) once we get this section of the arc done?  That way we could afford to make these changes without having to go back almost to the beginning with building the characters, esp in Unko's regards...that acid venom is going to cost a ton. Also it would help to increase the ability of some of the PCs seeing as none of us at first glance seem to be paragon/powerhouse archetypes like Reep the Barbarian was....give things a bit evener playing field perhaps.  Just an idea...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 06:58:37 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2018, 04:37:47 PM »
I recall two things needing to be adjusted for my character.
Wallcrawling (can't believe we missed that...) and my acid secretions.
Anything I might have missed? Granted, we haven't gotten to combat yet. I know I've got a bunch of advantages there, that I'm not yet sure how they will play out.

Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #93 on: February 06, 2018, 06:15:02 PM »
Destroying objects felt a bit clumsy while I was rolling for it, but I realised that I was reading the rules of how to destroy objects during action. I was wondering why the game would force players to only partially destroy an object when they could easily just try the same strategy again. (I broke the rules a little bit: both the hatch and the machine should be damaged but not destroyed, the latter reduced to the brittleness of glass.) In an action round, when each move matters, partially destroying an object might make things interesting.

Iíll dig a little deeper to see if thereís any standard for attacking objects when not in combat. Otherwise Iíll just go with my gut.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #94 on: February 06, 2018, 06:59:08 PM »
Okay...I posted what I had to say and such to give Reep and all ideas for future rejiggering.....luckily everything I mentioned for page #s and such, I know Reep has....and I'll keep looking over stuff to see what else I can come up with over the next day or so....might've missed something in the Power Profiles that might work out for the changes Cat and Unko are looking at....
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 07:00:45 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #95 on: February 06, 2018, 07:20:23 PM »
I dunno if you have seen my completed sheet, DJ?
The acid had been built as a ranged power, as she will learn to formulate globs of it to toss around, almost like throwing water balloons. But we also discussed the fact that she'd be secreting it and often using it as a close contact power too. I don't know if that means it has to change or what the deal is. Essentially I had the idea that all the ants in her colony have been engineered so they can produce an acidic substance, doing this only on the queen's commands of course.
The creators in charge would have intended this to help with burrowing, and the idea was she'd learn how to use it for combat over time. I have no problems reworking this power. Doesn't even have to be globs thrown yet, that was just the original idea.

Right now it's:
Acid Spray - Linked Effects - Blast (+2) [ Multiattack (+1) ] Affliction - Acid Burn (+1) [ Multiattack (+1) ]
Rank: 3
Cost per Rank: (5r)
Total Cost: 15


Feel free to adjust this attack to whatever seems more correct for the power...

PS: Google searched and am reading this... http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11834

EDIT: Oops, am I suppose to keep character sheet stuff under wraps? I apologize!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 07:43:58 PM by UnkoMan »

Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #96 on: February 06, 2018, 07:32:58 PM »
EDIT:  Okay, concerning the object damage, Reep, see page 156 of the Hero Handbook as well as the GM section of said handbook for info on handling that and the idea of out of combat stuff.

I didn't find anything specifically about destroying objects while not in action. The Create bit was useful, but it referred back to the same stuff I was looking at. I'm tempted in future just to add a circumstantial DC (somewhere between 5 and 10) and add that to toughness.

Quote
Concerning Unko's character powers, the wall-crawling is an easy one.  Just add a movement (wall crawl) to his form which will only cost an extra point.  The real problem area is going to be his acidic bite/acid venom because the cost is going to be pretty high.  I'd consider combining parts of the Venom power (pg 16 of Power Profiles) with that of the Corrosive power (pg 63 of Power Profiles) to get what you are looking for.  Depending on how you build it, it's going to cost between 3 to 5 points per rank though, which is going to throw off the reworking quite a bit...see later in this post for suggestions on getting around that.

Not to give too much away about the character sheets, but the changes we need should only cost two points total. The acid secretion only needs an additional flat +1 modifier to fulfil the requirement, and the wall climbing is 2 points unless there's a modifier we can think of.

Quote
As for Cat's Shatter ability, I'd look into either changing it over to the Shatter power (pg 167 of Power Profiles).  That one affects objects only and would work for what he's already used it as...that and it's not the most expensive change over either..I think 2 to 3 points per rank.

That's literally what he already has. That's the one I was a bit disappointed in, but now that I realised that the rules for it were talking about action moves it makes a lot more sense. If someone relies on their armour, Cat could inflict an enormous debuff. It just isn't very potent if I use the rules for action rounds during non-action.

Quote
Now, to mitigate what could be a massive point swing with powers and needing to get rid of advantages or points elsewhere to make that happen, might I suggest moving the PL level up to around PL 9 (somewhere around 130 and 140 points) once we get this section of the arc done?  That way we could afford to make these changes without having to go back almost to the beginning with building the characters, esp in Unko's regards...that acid venom is going to cost a ton. Also it would help to increase the ability of some of the PCs seeing as none of us at first glance seem to be paragon/powerhouse archetypes like Reep the Barbarian was....give things a bit evener playing field perhaps.  Just an idea...

You thought you could win me over that easy?

Actually, I was kidding about Reep. I didn't actually test long enough with each character for a decisive winner. Since all of you have ranged attacks, he's relying on his toughness. Since he wears armour, Cat in particular would absolutely slay him.

I've kinda balanced the campaign against PL8 as best as I could, so it would take a little bit of effort for me to change that now. If we find that the PL restrictions really do cause some severe limitations, then I'll consider it. But I don't think they will. Some limitations may be there on purpose.

Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2018, 07:55:19 PM »
Checking http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/effects/effect-descriptions/movement-movement/
Should my character have "safe fall" too, or is that too much? Ants don't get hurt from falling on account of being so tiny, however I wonder if in combined form, she'd reach a velocity that would cause more damage? Or would she just spread out? I dunno, are there any experiments where they drop a large cluster of ants from a huge height? Ha ha ha.
Apparently a lot of people have been asking what happens to an ant if dropped from the Empire State building, and the answer is it would probably be okay, but if that ant was dropped in a place without air resistance, then it would die just like anything else.

Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2018, 07:58:24 PM »
Drop a few handfuls of ants off your roof, then get back to me.

Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2018, 08:04:30 PM »
Ha ha ha.
I'd never do that. Poor, harmless ants.

I think her elongation would probably make up for the safe fall in general actually, right? She'd be able to extend her colony or flatten out to reduce wind resistance or whatever. That's stuff a "stretchy" character could do, so it seems logical.
Mr. Fantastic turning into a sail to glide around or whatever.
I don't know how much every little action has to be fine tuned in the character sheet. You're the GM anyhow!

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2018, 08:10:02 PM »
The post you have I think revolves around the second edition rules but am unsure....and no, I've not seen your character sheet..am just running stuff of the top of my head and what I can find in the 3E books that I have on this....depending on how Reep is working the rules for the powers depends on how things would be reworked.  I'd change it out some to being more of a cumulative damage with a weakening affect instead of just the acid burn section..and maybe array instead of a linked effect (would save some points perhaps..but it would mean that one would be ranged and one would be touch and you couldn't use them at the same time)..but that is just me...this depends on what Reep thinks...
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2018, 08:12:05 PM »
EDIT:  Okay, concerning the object damage, Reep, see page 156 of the Hero Handbook as well as the GM section of said handbook for info on handling that and the idea of out of combat stuff.

I didn't find anything specifically about destroying objects while not in action. The Create bit was useful, but it referred back to the same stuff I was looking at. I'm tempted in future just to add a circumstantial DC (somewhere between 5 and 10) and add that to toughness.

Let me dig through my stuff tonight and I'll see what I can find...
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2018, 08:26:24 PM »
Drop a few handfuls of ants off your roof, then get back to me.

..and I gave Reep an idea of where to look for an idea...after he'd already got your character worked out....oh well..... :wacko:

..and somehow I'm posting galore...wheeee...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 08:40:49 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2018, 08:46:19 PM »
Acid Spray is linked so that when attacking someone it damages and afflicts them in the same move. Otherwise Queen Ant would need to decide what exactly her acid is going to do to the people it targets.

There's something called a Dynamic Array that you could use to add the weaken effect. That allows you to choose multiple effects at once but at reduced effectiveness. When we respec, I'll design it as an option. As DJ says, it may come out cheaper. Possibly enough to pay for the other changes without having to touch your other stats.

The power I'm using looks like this. I think yours might be marginally outdated, Unko.
Acid Spray - Linked Effects
Blast
Multiattack
Affliction - Acid Burn: Vulnerable, Defenseless.
Multiattack, Limited Degree, Ranged


I think 'Insubstantial' does the trick for safe fall. Queen Ant has no structure, so there's nothing to be kinetically damaged. Even if some ants do get sacrificed in the event, you have regeneration too.

Can we all just that a moment to appreciate how much imagination went into this character sheet?

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2018, 09:17:35 PM »
That depends on the rank of insubstantial that you put on Queen Ant....if you just do Insubstantial 1 (liquid) then you don't get the safe fall type idea because you can still have a strength in that form.  Insubstantial 2 and up would give you a potential for safe fall because you no longer have a strength in that form and are unable to affect the world around you...that is one problem.  Like I said, look at the Collective's form (it's made of a hive mind of roaches)....I'll PM you the powers on it tomorrow, Reep, so you can see what I'm talking about. 

As for the acid spray, as long as she is spraying (ranged) she shouldn't have to worry about how it affects them in the same move...it would automatically be a damaging move with a continued weakening vs toughness affect afterward...same with a bite...that's why I considered a regular array instead. At least that's how I read the rules...but it's up to you as always.

And hey, what about my character sheet?!?! I had to think it all up with no help!!  :P
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 09:27:14 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2018, 10:31:25 PM »
Cat raises a good point. For the sake of this forum RP style, if another character can see something in plain sight (ie: hasn't had to roll perception) then you can assume you can as well, provided you're near enough. That's just to keep things moving.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2018, 10:46:03 PM »
Just as long as we know they see it, right? I mean, that idea could be used to create things that aren't there and affect the adventure is why I'm asking on that....I don't want to assume ahead of time or such...just want some clarification is all.

Edit: SO logic based then?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:55:46 PM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2018, 10:49:19 PM »
This is what I went ahead and assumed when the queen took notice of the metal hatch with the glowing light, prefaced with DJ's talk about it emitting light and following Wild Card's card throwing in the general area.
It seemed like a logical step at the time.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #108 on: February 07, 2018, 12:58:06 AM »
Okay, after going thru my M&M books I think I've got the answer for attacking objects outside of combat. Pretty much you treat it like combat with a few changes. First, you don't have to roll initiative seeing as the object doesn't have one unless it's a construct like a semi-automanous turrent or an android/golem. Second, the attacker can choose to roll the attack which also gives the character a +5 bonus if it hits. Or they can Take Ten and get an automatic hit without the +5 bonus rolling does. Now here's the interesting thing, if the Routine check (Taking Ten) "fails" - doesn't beat the DC - then the PC can do a roll just like a normal Routine Check.

So, say I attack a table and Take Ten only to fail then I can go ahead and roll the die to see if I can hit it and then get a + 5 bonus (you get the same bonus for "finishing attacks") on the damage roll against the object's toughness. Hope that makes sense and helps you, Reep.
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #109 on: February 07, 2018, 01:31:18 AM »
Just as long as we know they see it, right? I mean, that idea could be used to create things that aren't there and affect the adventure is why I'm asking on that....I don't want to assume ahead of time or such...just want some clarification is all.

The ladder was specifically mentioned as something that Queen Ant saw.  It wasn't something I assumed.
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #110 on: February 07, 2018, 03:20:39 AM »
As a player you know the rungs are there but your character has no idea they're there until he sees them or Queen Ant messaged about them. Sure he can assume that there are rungs or something going down but until he actually knows for sure, it's not a given. Sure, as players we know that their there because they were described to Unko's character. That was why I asked for clarification because it felt a bit like metagaming to me...I wanted to know how much wiggle room Reep will allow. I know somd gms who would jump down your throat and dock a pc exp for any form of metagaming while others woule encourage it up to a point. Just wanted some clarification.
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #111 on: February 07, 2018, 03:55:40 AM »
I did want Queen Ant to send information to both of you concerning the hole and what was below, but then you guys came down quick so it didn't really matter. I assume this is what cat was referring to, and his character would have much more experience getting thoughts off of animals. She has a fairly decent range of psychic communication, and she'll start being more outright communicative soon. (I'm also unsure of how much time we should take per character post, and how people will react and such. Getting the hang of that.)
So far your character seems to be pretty good at ignoring her, but I guess this is a city full of oddities, so what's one more?

It was a honest notion, I think. Not purposefully trying to metagame.

EDIT: Oh, and to clarify about my character's communication; She communicates through an odd combo of instincts, pictures, feelings, actual word formations. That being said, we'll start to treat it as a bit of feeling but mostly just regular talking, as she learns more about language in general. For example, she wouldn't understand a turn of phrase, however if you said it to her she would understand the meaning behind it, based on your understanding of what you are trying to convey. Does that make sense? Ha ha.
Really, we are going to end up treating it as standard talking for the most part, I think. But since she doesn't have vocal chords or a mouth/lungs big enough to produce air vibrations that could be heard, she needs to talk somehow. But it's really more the meaning behind what you are conveying rather than the actual words you are making. I mean ants also don't hear sounds like our human ears, they use their body to sense vibrations.
Maybe this doesn't clear things up at all.
Ha ha ha, whoops.

Game mechanics is distance speaking, understanding and being understood by creatures with enough capacity, if I recall.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 04:09:08 AM by UnkoMan »

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #112 on: February 07, 2018, 04:33:14 AM »
See, I didn't consider it metagaming because it was something that was right in front of my characters eyes now and there's no way we couldn't see that.  I mean, if Reap wants us to wait anyways fine, but I saw no reason to wait to be told my character could see what he very obviously could see and just assumed that would be obvious to everyone.  Didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition about it. (of course, no one ever does)
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #113 on: February 07, 2018, 04:46:52 AM »
My character has ignored your transmission Unko cause I wasn't sure how to depict them per say...that and he's had some possible history/training concerning psychics...maybe...who knows? That's something we'll maybe learn in the future...maybe...doubtful though.
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #114 on: February 07, 2018, 05:06:15 AM »
By the time we've figured out what's happening under this place and finished up our first encounter I'm sure we'll all be fast friends, ha ha ha.
I can picture us now, sitting at a diner, Wild Card annoyed with Organ King's cheerfulness, disgusted with Queen Ant getting all up in the sugar bowl.

PS: I think we could probably get another round of actions in before Reep has to say anything. Sorry, I'm so itching to go! Soon I won't be posting throughout the entire day.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #115 on: February 07, 2018, 05:29:38 AM »
I'm not sure about fast friends. I know for sure Wild Card wouldn't be found in a diner...but not for the reason you may think.

You and Cat might be able to do some interaction and such...I kinda need to hold on posting until Reep describes the room I'm stumbling into alone...
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Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2018, 05:32:28 AM »
Oh my gosh, you're so mysterious.
Oh, did you go through that door? I was wondering if you were going to check for traps or something like that first. Are these doors just unlocked?

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2018, 06:16:38 AM »
That's also why I'm holding on my post...got to find out if I'm going to need to use some skills or not to get in...

And me mysterious?!? More like I'd rather not give away a lot about my character...be more interesting for everyone to learn about him in game...if he decides to not be secretive or such...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 06:24:46 AM by Deaths Jester »
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Offline Reepicheep

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2018, 07:49:52 AM »
I also didn't see that case as metagaming. In order to not see the rungs, you would have needed to not be looking at the shaft. None of you have that short of an attention span (I hope). You were going to see and use the rungs anyway, so it saved me a little bit of typing. And I wanted to show off my map. Thanks for noticing, Unko.

It's definitely in the direction of metagaming, ie: using another person's viewpoint to see what's going on. But I'll only ask that it be retracted if you use it to your advantage or deny someone else their ability to participate. Otherwise, I might just send you a soft slap on the wrist and move on. Pace is king.

Quote
Okay, after going thru my M&M books I think I've got the answer for attacking objects outside of combat. Pretty much you treat it like combat with a few changes. First, you don't have to roll initiative seeing as the object doesn't have one unless it's a construct like a semi-automanous turrent or an android/golem. Second, the attacker can choose to roll the attack which also gives the character a +5 bonus if it hits. Or they can Take Ten and get an automatic hit without the +5 bonus rolling does. Now here's the interesting thing, if the Routine check (Taking Ten) "fails" - doesn't beat the DC - then the PC can do a roll just like a normal Routine Check.

This is more or less what I was doing. My issue was that if someone failed to destroy the hatch or the machine, then on their next turn they could just hit the hatch or the machine again. This probably wouldn't be an issue to me on a tabletop, since that dialogue would happen quickly. But here, it could be a few hours between Cat trying the first time, failing to destroy the machine, then trying again. These are the sorts of things I'd like to avoid. To avoid that, the outcome must be binary: you either destroy the object, or you don't have the tools required to do so. I'll think about how to turn that into a mechanism so that it isn't totally arbitrary.

Combat is another matter, since after partially destroying an object or failing to destroy it the scene would still have time to change. It might be that by the next move, trying to destroy the object is no longer necessary, viable or possible.

To speed things up, I just ran rolling for the attack and would have removed the +5 bonus if they failed.

Edit: I'm thinking of rolling the effect rank (sans +10/+15 bonus) against the toughness of the machine +10. In Cat's case, he has rank 5 in weaken. He would have needed to roll 14 or higher to destroy the machine. He could routinely destroy anything with toughness 5.


Unko: I forgot about your particular advantage. If I have time this morning, expect a PM.


Cat:
Quote from: Me
Cat raises a good point. For the sake of this forum RP style, if another character can see something in plain sight (ie: hasn't had to roll perception) then you can assume you can as well, provided you're near enough. That's just to keep things moving.

This was in response to your question in your last post (and not to ladders). You'd be able to see the rats and who they are going for.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 08:05:15 AM by Reepicheep »

Offline UnkoMan

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Re: Mutants & Masterminds - Table Talk
« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2018, 09:09:23 AM »
Quick question:
Is it right when I try to give a bit of options for actions based on what may happen? IE: "She tries to command them not to turn their hunger on her, but if they are too mad with starvation she will flick some acid towards them in the hopes of scaring them off."
I was doing it to try speeding up things, as in if an action I have taken leads to this, then I'd do that and you could counter with whatever, Reep. At least, for out of combat situations like this.
Also, still not 100% certain on how often I should be doing quick mental scans. I'd want her to be giving off low level a lot of the time. Do I have to call it?
Out of game, got a distinct feeling about this goo, but even if it were alive I dunno if it would have brainwaves. In game, I don't see that she'd be doing a particularly deep scan if the rats felt like the brainwaves she was getting before. If, however, she picked up on the other human over by Wild Card... She might try to probe deeper.

And yeah, I like the map! And the convenient coffee stain. Very cool!