Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Started by Tomato, September 21, 2019, 01:32:01 AM

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Tomato

So, for those who haven't been following the news on this... Ho boy this cast list. Beyond the usual Arrowverse suspects + Black Lightning:

-Tom Cavanagh (Harrison Wells/Eobard Thawne) as Pariah.
-Brandon Routh pulling double duty as Kingdom Come Superman as well as Ray Palmer.
-Kevin Conroy (!!!!!) as Bruce Wayne (an older one, rumored to be from a Batman Beyond world)
-Burt Ward as Someone (presumably Batman related)
-John Wesley Shipp once again returning as Earth 90s Barry Allen
-Tom Welling and Erica Durance reprising their roles as Clark Kent and Lois Lane from Smallville, with teases that we'll get to see some of what's happened since the show went off air.

This isn't even going into rumors that David Ramsey, the actor playing John Diggle will ALSO be doing double duty as Earth 90's Green Lantern.

I am so excited for this.

Silver Shocker

#1
Yes, I've been hearing about these. Shaping up to be quite the event. I've been saying it for years, but Arrowverse is truly DC's equivalent to the MCU. And with the finale to Arrow looming, there's a little bit of Avengers: Endgame parallels going on.

My fan speculation is that Pariah is going to be an alternate universe Wells who also happens to be Pariah. I'm not sure if I consider this a good thing or a bad thing, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they do that.

Speaking of Endgame comparisons...

Spoiler
I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing if the creators have the brass ones to kill off Barry Allen (or as the Flash tv show calls it "Flash Disappears in Crisis!" There's been talk back and forth about whether Wally will come back, and I've been entertaining this insane notion that the creators would kill off Barry and have Wally take over the entire show, like what happened with the Pre-Crisis Barry and the post-New 52/Rebirth Wally. Or possibly get a different character to replace Barry. I don't know how likely it is, or if I even want them to do it, considering how likable Grant Gustin is as Barry, but I'd be very impressed if they did it and pulled it off.

There's also rumours/speculation that Kid Flash is going to be in Titans, so if that turns out to be the case, that might mean that they're not allowed to bring back Wally anyway, but like I said, they could swap Barry out for another character. Heck, since they love time travel and having the actors play multiple variations on the same character, they could bring in Bart Allen from the future, have Grant Gustin play him, and have him be kind of a punk that all of the other characters don't like Jason Todd style or Harry Wells style. That could probably play for a season or so.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

GhostMachine

I'm wondering if they'll get some actors that have been on Supergirl already, back in their old roles:

Helen Slater, Dean Cain, Terri Hatcher and Lynda Carter.

Tomato, it was already revealed that John Diggle is John Stewart, so wouldn't it be nice if he got a glowing green ring?

On The Flash front, Jay is supposed to be training a female Flash we haven't seen yet. Hopefully she shows up before Crisis. And since Jay looks like Henry Allen, how about giving us a Jay Garrick from another world played by Grant Gustin at some point?

Wonder if Brandon Routh will have blue contacts in again as Superman?







Silver Shocker

#3
Speaking of Green Lantern, the creators have said that they would have liked to do GL in the Arrowverse, but opted not to because the special effects involved would be too difficult/expensive...which considering how sparingly Firestorm was utilized in Legends and how dodgy some of the special effects are during action scenes in Flash and Supergirl, (not to mention that the actual Green Lantern movie had less-than-well-received CGI) I can actually believe. It might also be why the Ray did jack all in the Earth X crossover.

Having 90's tv show Flash say "Hey John, I didn't recognize you without your ring." is a lot easier to do than designing and producing a costume and doing the special effects ect (not saying that they're not actually going to do that), that's a little wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the fans.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Shogunn2517

I do have to say this with respect to MCU comparisons: The MCU effectively changed the way Hollywood makes movies. Every so often we had characters go from one property to another, but it's generally been about a character, a cameo and not much regard to a singular coherent story. But to see characters from completely separate franchises all not just intermingle but also come together for a super franchise, well it obviously broke Hollywood records. We've never seen it before.

Now, of course TV is different and we've seen spinoff of spinoffs and spinoffs and characters show up on several shows(ie John Munch being on like a dozen different shows). But what the Arrowverse is doing isn't just spinoffs, but they're taking stories and characters from shows that it were not a spinoff of and making it part of their story. From across several decades and half a dozen other movies and shows. And this, like the MCU, is the kind of integration that comic fans have dreamed up when we actually started reading comments. We never thought this kind of stuff was possible. At least I did. I remember when Superman IV and Batman came out around the same time and desperately wanting to see them show up together. The MCU started what we want to see. What the Arrowverse is doing... that's next level entertainment!

I'm fully expecting others like Clancy Brown, Joe Morton, Stacey Haiduk, maybe an actor or two from the Titans... Maybe even Shaq.  :P :D

Silver Shocker

#5
Oh I totally agree with you my man, that's why I've been saying for years that DC's Arrowverse is their equivalent to the MCU. They've been stumbling and struggling and experimenting elsewhere (the movies obviously, but also the streaming service shows and some of their animated stuff) but this they can be proud of forever. There was a quint time when I thought Smallville was the best we could ask for.

And then in season 1 and 2 of The Flash I thought Mark Hamill playing Totally-Not-The-Joker-In-Live-Action-But-Totally-The-Joker (aka Trickster) was the best it could get. But yeah, here we are. It's kinda bananas. I really, really hope Crisis doesn't turn out to be even a mild letdown, because the hype is just that real.

Anyways, Clancy Brown already made it in the Arrowverse. As General Eiling. And a mind controlled General Eiling doing the voice of Gorilla Grodd. Which was great.  ^_^

I'd love to say he should play Lex Luthor in live action, because he was always just perfect voicing the character, but honestly he just doesn't look the part. I know it's easy to say all you need for a live action Lex Luthor is a bald head but Clancey just doesn't have the right facial structure IMO.

Anyway, my fanboy wish is for Micheal Rosenbaum to play Lex Luthor again in this. Especially if he was to play the heroic "Alexander Luthor" version. And maybe have him square off against the over-the-top-cartoony supervillain that is Jon Cryer's Lex.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Tomato

#6
So I'd already looked it up before the conversation, so unfortunately I'll spill the beans on Lynda Carter: While she was in Supergirl multiple times, Marc Guggenheim has stated that DC/WB put the kibosh on her showing up as Wonder Woman in CoIE. Given the fact that they're allowing more access to the dcu (Batwoman getting a show set in Gothem, for example) I suspect that it's part of the same weird tv rights issues that prevented Donna Troy from appearing in the original Teen Titans cartoon or Young Justice.

Though that ban got lifted for both (ttg has Wonder Girl and yj had Donna in season 3) so it could also be DC's weirdo "wah, we don't want to dilute the brand by having tv shows AND movies" hangup.

P.S. I knew about the John Diggle is Stewart thing, but he'd have to take his step father's name, which he hasn't yet done even after finding out about his father, and which reminds me of "Garrick was my mother's maiden name" in that he may not be John Stewart in earth 1, but you can easily foresee a reality where he took his step father's name.

Also, yeah, as SS pointed out, making E1 John a GL would mean all the special effects. I can see that for the crossover, but after? Ehhhh. With Arrow ending they could make him a GL after the crossover (merge him with his E90 counterpart or something) and have him show up SUPER sparingly after, but that's just invite "but what about HAL?!?" nonsense.

daglob

Quote from: Tomato on September 23, 2019, 04:03:52 PM
So I'd already looked it up before the conversation, so unfortunately I'll spill the beans on Lynda Carter: While she was in Supergirl multiple times, Marc Guggenheim has stated that DC/WB put the kibosh on her showing up as Wonder Woman in CoIE. Given the fact that they're allowing more access to the dcu (Batwoman getting a show set in Gothem, for example) I suspect that it's part of the same weird tv rights issues that prevented Donna Troy from appearing in the original Teen Titans cartoon or Young Justice.

Though that ban got lifted for both (ttg has Wonder Girl and yj had Donna in season 3) so it could also be DC's weirdo "wah, we don't want to dilute the brand by having tv shows AND movies" hangup.

:cry:

Tomato

Yeah. I was hopeful too (we're getting a Batman and 3 Supermen, was hoping to see Wondy get some love) but yeah, exact quote:

Quote"I had conversations with DC and Warner Bros. and based on those conversations, I don't think it's going to be able to happen," the Arrowverse producer stated.

Not a "not ever" especially with SG around, but yeah... It sounds like probably not.

Silver Shocker

Micheal Rosenbaum says he won't be in Crisis. :(

So MR says DC calls him up and offers him a role in it, but didn't give sufficient details or enough money, but needed him to say yes right away for it to happen, and he wasn't willing to agree to it.

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Tomato

Tbf, I don't think there was that ever gonna be that much effort put into asking. Rosenbaum had a pretty strict set of rules to agree to come back for the Smallville finale (a series he dedicated years to and had a big role in concluding), and I can't imagine he'd be any less strict coming back for CoIE.

Plus, with Jon Cryer's Lex being a big part of the crossover already, I doubt they would have had space for more than a cameo during one of the scenes set in Smallville's universe. I suspect they only asked at all because they knew fans would be asking about him, and to not even ask would look bad on them.

Now, admittedly, Tom Welling was also pretty famously done with acting after Smallville, but the producers also REALLY wanted him to show up... So they were far more willing to negotiate with him than Rosenbaum.

GhostMachine

Was Welling done with acting, or just with playing Clark? Because after SMALLVILLE, he was on LUCIFER as Cain. (Yes, THAT Cain.)

I personally never watched SMALLVILLE that much. The entire time it was on, I watched at most 4 or 5 episodes.

Tomato

Was he? Huh. Admittedly I hadn't really been following his career too much (and Lucifer wouldn't be my cup of tea anyway) but my understanding at the time was that he wanted to get more behind the camera time in. Could be that he just wanted to get a break after 10 seasons of shooting Smallville.

(For the record, I DID slog my way through all 10 seasons. Every time I gave it up, I'd hear about something happening and binge up to that point then give it up again, only to have watched 8 seasons of it and hear it was ending)

GhostMachine

We might be getting an ARROW spinoff, but...its not good news, in my opinion.

The spinoff is likely to be the Canaries, from last season's future segments. If that happens, I won't watch. The future segments were the worst part of last season. I'd much rather have a spinoff about Diggle or the remaining members of Team Arrow.

Tomato

#14
^Pretty much that. I completely agree, I don't mind it as it related to the ending of the season (the whole thing being a "waiting to rejoin my beloved" is a bit cliche, but I enjoyed it) but it was barely tolerable even there.

Silver Shocker

#15
I did end up watching every season of Smaillville. It was a very hit-or-miss show, even back then, and a lot of the superhero stuff has aged badly by today's standards, Welling was pretty good in it and MR was a great Lex. Still the best one we've had in live action, IMO, though I loved Jon Cryer Lex for the three or so episodes he actually appeared in.

As for Arrow, yeah, I was pleased to hear of an Arrow spinoff, but rather disappointed to learn it's more of the future segments from Arrow. My least favorite part of that season.

Anyway, here's something much cooler: Brandon Routh as Superman!

I love it.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

GhostMachine

A few things I've found out:

Routh will be doing double duty, because he will also be appearing as Ray Palmer.

The Huntress from the short lived Birds of Prey series will be showing up.

They're going to introduce Ryan Choi at some point. Don't know if that will be during Crisis or when Legends returns, but Ray and Nora are leaving, and Ryan did take over as the Atom in the comics...


Silver Shocker

#17
Ashley Scott? Neat.

Be great if Dina Meyer showed up as Oracle but WB might not let it happen (even though Huntress is in the upcoming Birds of Prey movie)  :huh:

Man, they just announcing more and more neat stuff. It's like they're showing off. I hope the excitement hasn't worn off by the time the storyline actually premieres.

Was sad to hear Routh was leaving Legends but now that I hear Choi's showing up it would work out if he's joining Legends. I wasn't a big fan of the past season of Legends so if he joins it that'd probably be cool.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

catwhowalksbyhimself

Quote from: Silver Shocker on September 27, 2019, 06:08:22 PM
I did end up watching every season of Smaillville. It was a very hit-or-miss show, even back then, and a lot of the superhero stuff has aged badly by today's standards, Welling was pretty good in it and MR is was a great Lex (still the best one we've had in live action, IMO, though I loved Jon Cryer Lex for the three or so episodes he actually appeared in.

As for Arrow, yeah, I was pleased to hear of an Arrow spinoff, but rather disappointed to learn it's more of the future segments from Arrow. My least favorite part of that season.

Anyway, here's something much cooler: Brandon Routh as Superman!

I love it.

Trunks!  I've missed the trunks.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

Tomato

Dude, that costume is amazing. It's everything Routh SHOULD have had during Returns... Amazing color choices, speak look, a logo that makes his chest look Superman sized... It's a great look.

Shogunn2517

Okay, I started watching the new seasons and I have a few questions.

So I stopped watching Black Lightning midway through last season. Honestly, the show is pretty well made and I can tell the showrunners knew how to make the show they wanted to make. Problem is I'm pretty confident they've never read a comic book before, least of all a Black Lightning comic. But I made it a point to watch it. As I did with Batwoman, which wasn't bad. It seems they're going to use a Supergirl-esque formula(which means, I'm confident Batman will show up at some point too). But her costume was noticeably different than it was from Elseworlds.

So I'm looking at these shows and kind of wondering how are they weaving these together. I know in previous crossovers it wasn't critical-critical to watch ALL the shows to know what's going on. But with so much going on in this crossover, will it just be Cress Williams or others from the cast? Will they explain the discrepancy in Batwoman's costume?

Maybe my mind is racing too much in anticipation.

Silver Shocker

So I can say for Batwoman. I'm pretty sure the start of Batwoman takes place before Elseworlds. We're seeing her origin, one of the cast members said in an interview that there will be flashbacks spread through the show, just like Arrow, and the various advertisements seem to indicate that Batwoman starts out with the all-black costume before adding the red wig, red Bat symbol, ect.

Not sure how that's going to sync up with the crossover, but it might depend on whether it's going to be an episode of "Batwoman" or an installment of "Crisis on Infinite Earths". Or both.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Silver Shocker

More updates:

-Picture released of Burt Ward walking a dog (Apparently Ward funded a dog rescue and adoption agency in real life; didn't know that). Likely Ace The Bat Hound. The shirt Ward wears references the colors on Robin's costume (red, yellow, green and black)
-Audrey Marie Anderson as her comic counterpart, Harbinger.
-pictures of Tom Cavanaugh as Pariah (along with AMA as Harbinger)

And this last one warrants a spoiler warning...for Flash S6ep1:

Spoiler
At the end of the Flash season premiere, the Monitor shows up and gives Barry the Oliver Queen treatment...yep, he tells Barry (and the audience) in advance that Barry Allen will die!. One of the showrunners has confirmed online that Barry Allen will die in Crisis. I've already said my theory here, but someone online had a great one. John Wesley Shipp's 90's TV show Flash in place of Grant Gustin's Barry. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happens.

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Silver Shocker

#23
2 days until Crisis. This hype is REAAAL!

So for those who don't know - the schedule is as follows:

- Sunday, Dec 8: Supergirl (Pt 1)
-Monday Dec 9: Batwoman (Pt 2) AND a "Red Skies tie-in" (yes really) in Black Lightning, where the pierce familys learns of the multiverse and BL encounters an evil superpowered doubleganger of at least one of his daughters.
-Tuesday Dec 10:  The Flash Pt 3)

Christmas Holidays (yes really)

January 14: Arrow (pt 4) and Legends (pt 5)


That hiatus is gonna be a nail-biter.

Here's a roundup of what we know (other than what's stated earlier in the thread) (Spoilers for the most recent episodes of Arrow, Flash and Supergirl)

Spoiler

-Layla has become Harbinger.
-"Nash" Wells has been researching the Monitor and is, by all appearances, about to become Pariah and/or discover the existence of the Anti-Monitor (who, based on promo pics, looks like a vampire-like version of the Monitor)
-The Monitor talked to J'onn J'onnz.
-Lex is indeed working for the Monitor, in exchange for an as-yet unrevealed deal involving his sister (who's currently in the process of a heel-turn in the current season of Supergirl and is confirmed to appear during Crisis)
-Bloodwork, the villain for the current season of the Flash, has already been defeated (he was locked up in Star Labs, but is still alive) meaning the entire second half of this season of the Flash could be spun out of whatever happens in Crisis
-Kevin Conroy is not playing the Batman Beyond version of Bruce Wayne, as previously rumoured, but is playing Kingdom Come Bruce with the cyborg brace.
Oh! I should probably say, I've been largely without internet for most of this week, so if there's been some new announcements since then that I've missed feel free to chime in and add them!


My predictions:

Spoiler


-Lex is going to either die or be taken off the board in some way. While he stole the show in his episodes of Supergirl, he was really there to motivate Lena Luthor's character development, and this version of Lex is so transparently evil I don't see any way he could do a parmanant face-turn. He'll likely try to backstab the Monitor for his own benefit and either be punished for it and/or do a redemption-equals-death face turn. Then again, a lot of people are hoping he'll show up in the Lois and Clarke show, and honestly, he totally should (and for those wondering, Jon Cryer's age was handwaved in Supergirl with a line about Kryponite poisoning and/or experimenting causing him to age faster) But you could always have him appear in flashbacks - show the legendary Lex vs. Superman battles we never actually saw during Supergirl - or pull a reverse 52 (that would be the weekly comic series "52") and have an alternate universe Lex replace the one we know right now.

-Ray Palmer is going to die this season. We know Brandon is leaving Legends and there hasn't been a big death or a major departure since Legends S3, which featured Stein's death in Earth X (though Zari apparently got written out at the end of S4 - not sure where that's going) And Ray's become more of a comedy character in Legends since (along with the whole show). Since they skipped Elseworlds, this could be a chance for Legends to contribute in a meaningful way. We also have Ryan Choi coming to replace Ray. I'd guess they'll a few episodes to set up Brandon being written out (they did this with Stein) but I think they get the ball rolling with Legends' contribution to Crisis.

-The Monitor becomes the Anti-Monitor. Time travel may be involved.

-Ollie's going to die for real, Barry won't. How this will affect the back end of Arrow and Flash's seasons is completely up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

-Whoever the main villain of the back half of Flash is will be made partially or entirely clear by the time Crisis is over. Unless they just have Bloodwork break out of Star Labs in the back half.

-Characters from other universes will die. Probably Routh's Superman. Can't say I'm fond of that, but it's kinda tradition, it's pretty much what the original comic book did, Infinite Crisis did this with Earth 2 Superman, and the opening scene of Elseworlds showed an entire group of "90's Flash universe" versions of GA, Stargirl, ect, curb-stomped off screen by the Monitor. And of course, Earth 2 got wiped out in the very first episode of Arrow this year.

-There's going to be surprise cameos we don't know about. This one's very much wishful thinking, but I don't believe the DC/tv version of Avengers Infinity War/Endgame would really give away all the surprises on the promotional circuit before the show actually comes out.

-There's going to be at least one backdoor-pilot-style tease for a new show.

-Next will be Zero Hour and/or a Legion of Superheroes show.

-Flash is ending soon and they're not telling us until after Crisis airs.

-Legends won't get picked up for another season. The ratings last year were the lowest they've ever been and, from what I've read, season 4 was considered the weakest. I personally thought it was really bad.

-If Legends doesn't end before Flash does, Ralph Dibney aka the Elongated Man will join the Legends. Because that just makes sense. Ralph's one of the wackiest characters in the entire Arrowverse and Flash has been pushing him hard for the last three years.

And of course, the one that's been expected for over a year - Supergirl will be folded into the Earth 1 universe. We already know Melisa Benoist is going to be guest starring in Batwoman this year and she hasn't shown up yet, so it's gotta be in the back-half of the season.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

GhostMachine

If they merge all the shows onto one Earth, that should lead to BLACK LIGHTNING's Markovians storyline coming to a quick end.....

Stargirl is apparently going to be in this, and her series is going to air on both THE CW and DC.

I'm hoping that the new female Flash that Jay mentioned he was training debuts during this.

My predictions:

Spoiler
Barry does die....but in a swerve, its Earth 90 Barry.

The next Wells on THE FLASH ends up being a mashup of the previous Wells that have been regulars on the series. (And I mean actual Wells, NOT Thawne.)

Oliver dies, and the remaining episodes of ARROW lead in to the spinoff featuring the kids, showing how they get back to their own time period.

One new series ends up spinning off out of this, as a replacement for LEGENDS, which ends up being cancelled. (With Brandon Routh exiting, its going to go downhill)

At least one shocking cameo that they actually manage to keep secret.

Cisco gets his powers back. Otherwise, whats the point of him even wearing the Vibe costume?

Either Diggle gets a certain piece of green jewelry, or David Ramsey plays John Stewart from another Earth, as well as Diggle/Spartan.

I don't see ZERO HOUR being done as a follow up, because its still regarded as a major dud. Maybe we'll get something more like Challenge of the Super-Friends?

What I hope happens, but am not expecting:

Spoiler
The Spectre shows up to help unleash an industrial strength smackdown on the Anti-Monitor.

An appearance by the JSA, but NOT the rather blah, disappointing version from LEGENDS. (For all we know, Jay could already be a member on his Earth, but just hasn't mentioned the others.)

Silver Shocker

#25
I was actually wondering if they might do a Stargirl tease in it as well.

I do want to see that female Flash at some point - if they're going to specifically mention her, it'd be nice to see her at some point and get an idea who she is.

Oh here's one I forgot, a new "Extended" Crisis trailer - the main difference is we hear and see Kevin Conroy in it! The fanboy part of my brain definitely took notice as soon as I heard that voice.  :thumbup:

Ghostmachine:

Spoiler
As I've mentioned earlier in the thread, the Earth-90-Barry-dies-instead-theory is a prevalent one. Would not be surprised. While I posited the idea of a different lead Flash earlier in the thread, I think it's too much of a risk to do the show without Gustin as Barry - with Arrow we know the show's ending so that works fine.

QuoteThe next Wells on THE FLASH ends up being a mashup of the previous Wells that have been regulars on the series. (And I mean actual Wells, NOT Thawne.)

Rewatching every season of Flash on Blu Ray and Netflix, I've really been reminded that they dragged the "Wells" gag into the mud. The "council of Wells" was goofy enough as it is, but once you made an entire season's Wells a goofy parody of Sherlock Holmes with a funny accent, I think it's started to get old, and it's almost enough to make you forget just how good Tom C was at playing a straight version of Wells. I don't know what the solution is, but I think they need to either retire the gag or go back to him being a serious character instead of a "gimmick" one.

QuoteOliver dies, and the remaining episodes of ARROW lead in to the spinoff featuring the kids, showing how they get back to their own time period.

Oh, so you expect the kids to go Back.....To the Future?! As I said before, I had a vague feeling they were going to get them into the present day before it even happened, so I still think the spinoff will be this premise since that way characters like Diggle ect, can still pop in for cameos, guest roles, ect. To my honest, I don't want them going back to the future since the future was so boring, but then again, I'm not crazy about Arrow without Oliver Queen. Half a season of Oliver in prison was pushing it as it was.

QuoteOne new series ends up spinning off out of this, as a replacement for LEGENDS, which ends up being cancelled. (With Brandon Routh exiting, its going to go downhill)

I'm still of the opinion it's already downhill, but I've accepted that with Routh exiting, it's going to suck just a little bit more, even if Choi ends up being a good character in his own right. The show's just become too much of a farce of itself, and the most recent season was rewritten because they liked Tom Wilson as Nate's father too much to make him the villain for the whole season, and it showed. I've been of the opinion for a full year that it was all downhill after you got rid of Stein, Jax and Rip Hunter, not to mention Damien Darke. I think it might be time to wrap it up before things get too stale. The Arrowverse guys will have to learn at some point that not every show can last 8 years like Arrow.

QuoteI don't see ZERO HOUR being done as a follow up, because its still regarded as a major dud. Maybe we'll get something more like Challenge of the Super-Friends?

Well, they did call the three-man trio of Thawn, Darke, and Malcolm Merlyn the "Legion of Doom" (and joked that they got the name from some lame cartoon) but since they never pretended the crossover adaptations were going to be in order (nor that Marvel do that with the MCU) - Invasion happened after Crisis, after all - you could go straight to Infinite Crisis, you could do a try to do a GOOD version of Armegeddon if you want to try having a good guy hero doing an effective heel-turn (then again, that's also one of the REASONS why Zero Hour is considered a dud - the Hal Jordan version of Paralax is one of the villains in it)....the only reason I suggested Zero Hour is it involved time travel and reshuffling the universe and the Legion of Superheroes got a big revival in the 90's around that time, and again, I think DC will try to do a Legion show at this point. Then again, DC's also been pushing Outsiders lately and the Outsiders stuff in Black Lightning is....kinda lame.  :(

But of course, there's so many big stories you can adapt, there's almost no reason to even list them all. "Elseworlds", after all, was really "Crisis - Prologue" anyway, and Earth-X was...I think, wholly original (though perhaps vaguely inspired by the Crime Syndicate of America).

I dunno, these CW Arrowverse people seem to (mostly) know what they're doing. I think they'll figure something out.

QuoteThe Spectre shows up to help unleash an industrial strength smackdown on the Anti-Monitor.

Oh yeah, I forgot Jim Corrigan is in this! That should be interesting. A Spectre tv show would be amazing if done right, but I can't see it being a CW Arrowverse show. It'd be perfect as a DC Universe show ala Swamp Thing, but I don't know if they'd risk it after Swamp Thing's swift cancellation (pretty good little show, IMO though - it was setting up Justice League Dark, which would have been nifty)

QuoteAn appearance by the JSA, but NOT the rather blah, disappointing version from LEGENDS. (For all we know, Jay could already be a member on his Earth, but just hasn't mentioned the others.)

Yeah, the JSA from Legends served their purpose, writing the Amaya version of Vixen into the show, but they didn't really have the legs for future appearances, so I think it'd be nice if they gave them another shot in the future, especially with Stargirl on the way. It seems like DC has had difficulty getting the JSA collectively some good mainstream exposure (as opposed to just Stargirl and Dr. Fate, both of which pop up with pretty good regularity)

In any case - less than 24 hours until Crisis!
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

GhostMachine

Silver Shocker:

Spoiler
They've already said the ARROW spinoff will take place in the future. Unless the remaining episodes of ARROW deal with either them getting back there, or the rest of Team Arrow getting used to fighting crime without Oliver - or both - I don't see the point in even doing more episodes. The spinoff is not something I am interested in at all, but I admit I'd be interested a bit if they were stuck in the present rather than going back to their own time period.

On LEGENDS, its Rip and Captain Cold no longer being around that bother me more than anything else. I *might* keep watching after Brandon Routh leaves, but it just won't be the same. Bringing Constantine in and giving the actress who played Amaya a new role (and I find Charlie a lot more interesting) were smart moves. I just wish they'd either have Nate wear his Steel costume more often, or get rid of him altogether.  I am not sure Ray will be killed off, because the press release sent out made it seem like the door was open for him to come back for guest appearances down the road. (Yes, I know since time travel is involved, death doesn't mean mucfh. But I'm expecting Ray and Nora to just leave to go be together rather than continuing on as Legends.)

My alternate Flash theory: Barry (Gustin) does die, and someone else takes over as The Flash, but Barry returns out of the Speed Force during whatever the next crossover event is, if not sooner. But NOT during what's left of this season. For a replacement, I'm thinking either Earth 90 Flash (who gets a new costume, hopefully....) or the female one Jay is training. Wally would be too obvious a choice.

Just a note: An episode of THE FLASH later this season is going to be called "Grodd Friended Me". The actress who played Jesse is on a CBS show called "God Friended Me". Some people (not me) are speculating that Jesse might show up during that episode. I highly doubt it, but it would be good to know if her and Harry are still alive, since their Earth got destroyed already.

catwhowalksbyhimself

Enjoyed the first two episodes a lot.  Conroy's performance was quite good as expected and I did not expect them to go that direction with it.

Spoiler

Is anyone at all surprised that Lex immediately grabbed the book and started killing Supermen?

Heatwave and the baby was hillarious.  Even better that this was not even the one that they all know.

A lot of folks are mad over the Smallville cameo, but it was pretty much along the lines of what I was expecting.

Conroy as evil future Bruce was absolutely fantastic. People are mad about this too.  Don't care.  Loved it.

Any guesses to to who the all the paragons are?
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.

Silver Shocker

Definitely enjoyed the crossover so far.

Spoiler
TITANS ARE BACK ^$%#ES!
Holy-something-or-other, I guess Burt Ward was a retired Dick Grayson from the Adam West show?

I checked my trade of Crisis and sure enough, that opening narration is taken straight from the book. Can't say I was surprised, but still pretty neat.

I'm kinda glad they made sure to have the Monitor say that his powers were fading after the Crisis started. Feels like a way for the writers to cover their tracks, considering how overpowered the Monitor seemed to be initially.

Taking Oliver to an alternate universe Lazarus Pit was a very clever yet obvious solution. I'm kinda disappointed I didn't think of that (then again, pt 2 airing so soon after pt 1, may have had something to do with it. If I had to wait a week, maybe I would have thought of it)

I found the various references relating to the Brandon Routh Superman interesting. The references to fighting an evil version of himself seemed to imply Superman 3 was canon to Superman Returns, while the reference to Tyler's Superman's son resembling "my son Jason" links to Superman Returns, while that Superman went on to have a story modeled after Kingdom Come. Interesting, but kinda bittersweet if that's really supposed to be the Superman Returns iteration of the character.

Yeah, Mick was great in this. I dare say better used here than he was in the entirely of the past season of Legends. Had a very S2-3 Mick sense of humor to him. LOVED that Snart was the voice of the Waverider's ship in this one. That's exactly the kinda surprise cameo I was looking forward to.

People were angry about those things? I'm genuinely surprised. I know fans are particular about their nerd properties, but that seems surprising considering we're dealing with alternate universes and the Arrowverse started with evil Earth 2 doppelgangers.

If Welling's Clarke got his butt handed to him that'd be one thing, but he got to punch out Jon Cryer's Lex. I don't get why people were angry. Because he gave up his powers I guess?

Also, someone really should have been keeping an eye on Lex and/or the book of Destiny. I mean, the first chance he got, THE FIRST CHANCE, he went rogue. And I have to assume noone in the audience was surprised.

Ghost Machine:

Spoiler
Regarding the past season of Legends, it felt to me like there was less costumed superheroics in the show than there used to be, your example of Nate not wearing his Steel costume being a good example.

I did feel like it was a shame to take Snart off the table when they did, but Wentworth Miller did make some reappearances in later seasons, so maybe it is more the most recent season which was hurting from his absence.

On another note, the showrunners have said there won't be a crossover next year. Maybe that's the right route to go. Take a breather after a big crossover like this one.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

catwhowalksbyhimself

#29
Well that was both expected and not expected at all.

Spoiler

Things that people predicted were Flash 90 dying in Flash 1's place and Oliver inheriting the mantle of The Spectre.

I did not expect every single Earth to get wiped out, or the Vanishing Point to come back into play again.  That was a nice little callback.  Also Lex stealing Returns Superman's spot was a surprise to me.

Hope Oliver gets to hang around as the Spectre from time to time after the crossover is over.

Edit

Shocker:
Spoiler

People really wanted to see Welling in the suit and they wanted him to be the main superman. People are raging all over youtube about it, spamming any clips of that scene with their rage.  Personally I thought it was near perfect.

The outrage about Control was much less, but people really wanted him to be TAS Batman and not something else.

I think in both cases they had a picture in their head as to what they wanted which was never going to happen, so those people probably would never have been happy whatever happened.
I am the cat that walks by himself, all ways are alike to me.