So this is....different. (JL #SynderCut )

Started by Nyte Dragon, February 10, 2021, 11:16:41 PM

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Silver Shocker

#30
In an interview Snyder was asked why he was going to do as a movie that sets up later movies when those later movies might not get made at all. His answer was a very straightforward "They wanted my vision. This is my vision."

That being said there were stuff that wasn't originally going to be in the 2017 version of that one specific movie.

Spoiler


1. The whole of the Knightmare sequence in this is a new creation, which as I understand it serves to A. Make up for Snyder never getting to make a whole movie of this, which he wanted to (though I joked that this thing basically is Apocalypse War; based on what I know about this thing, it kinda is)
B. Justify more Slade Wilson and Jared Leto Joker
C. Deliver on some Darkseid.

2. Martian Manhunter going to see Batman at the end is a change - originally it was going to be Kilowog and Tomar Re, setting up some more Green Lantern.

Also Snyder wanted to bring in Ryan Reynolds at some future point to play a different Green Lantern - how nifty.

Also Crave is offering, for a limited time, 50% off on a 3 month plan. That could be worth getting for my option to see the Snyder Cut.

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Tomato

So I haven't seen the whole thing (I easily could, but I have no desire to) but some friends of mine did and they showed me some clips from the beginning and from the final fight. I was not impressed. Neither of them are huge comic fans, but they both hated it for other reasons. One of them went into this not having seen the original (it's why she wanted to watch this one, to be "unbiased") and she said "it's worse than Dragonball Evolution"

-So one of their big complaints was about the whole scene with the Amazons and Steppenwolf. In the first part of the scene, Amazons are being smacked into stone walls, smashing stone pillars, whatever. Then, during the chase, one of the Amazons (I believe Hypolita's bodyguard) has a horse fall on their shins, and dies. The scene lingers on them supposedly dying. There's no evidence they cracked their head open (and it's not like Snyder shied away from blood elsewhere) they just die from having a horse on their legs. Somehow.
-They complained extensively on how Steppenwolf looks. It's bad, he's jarring in every scene I saw (he's so shiny) and the lighting on him is just terrible. Like, he's somehow backlit by a sort of purple lighting constantly, but there's no purple light ever.
-The graphics in general are not polished. They're technically better than what we had a few decades ago, but a few shots looked more like video game graphics than anything really there. I honestly think things would have benefited from cutting it down by an hour or two and focusing their efforts.

Lastly, one that's more or a spoiler, but it's addressing something SS just brought up.
Spoiler

-They pointed out the MM scenes as being jarring... the first because there's no reason for him to change back to MM form for the camera before changing to the general, the second because it was like "why *didn't* you help, you live here". Knowing that it was supposed to be the GLs and was randomly changed to MM because Snyder just wanted it I guess, makes it kinda worse.

That all being said, I will agree that in what little I saw, it's "better" if only because it has more character stuff and the final fight actually has things for other characters to do. But there's still plenty of Snyder-isms (like a hero exploding a dude in front of school children and then being like "yes, I'm someone to look up to") so I really don't want to see the whole thing.

Shogunn2517

Quote from: HarryTrotter on March 21, 2021, 05:39:56 AM
It does make me interested in where DC movies go from here. There is a lot of setup here.

Definitely agree with this. But the unfortunate thing is it's hard to see them greenlignting something more. I for one would have already loved to see a Batfleck movie and this REALLY made me want to see it even more. Plus what they were doing with the main characters(antagonist and protagonist) I really want to see more with them. But again, after the theatrical release will they want to do more? That's the question.

Silver Shocker

#33
I've heard good things. I might get it fired up Monday night, and when I do see it, I expect I'll have a more positive appraisal of it than others here.

QuoteLastly, one that's more or a spoiler, but it's addressing something SS just brought up.
Spoiler

-They pointed out the MM scenes as being jarring... the first because there's no reason for him to change back to MM form for the camera before changing to the general, the second because it was like "why *didn't* you help, you live here". Knowing that it was supposed to be the GLs and was randomly changed to MM because Snyder just wanted it I guess, makes it kinda worse.

As I mentioned about a month or so ago, that was not planned, and apparently it shows. Unfortunate, but not particularly surprising. Shame, because as I'm sure I'm made clear in the past, I'm a big fan of that particular character.

QuoteBut there's still plenty of Snyder-isms (like a hero exploding a dude in front of school children and then being like "yes, I'm someone to look up to") so I really don't want to see the whole thing.

I went ahead and checked that scene on Youtube, then checked it extra, and here's how it looked to me. I also would have preferred to not have that sequence spoiled.

Spoiler


It looks very clear to me that Roose Bolton was about to fire an explosive round into the crowd and WW blocked it, and that got edited down.

Also the girl says "Can I be like you sometime?" and WW's answer was "Don't take magically enslaved men for joyrides. It's not nice. You can be anyone you want to be." Which is....a pretty good answer that leaves the door open to "Don't throw terrorists head first into walls if you don't want to. I'll do it for you."  :P


Oh, almost forgot. Jared Leto said in an interview he ad-libbed the "We live in a society" line.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Tomato

In my defense, I was trying to obfuscate who I was talking about and the context of it, I just clearly didn't obfuscate it enough. It's also just ONE example of the level of violence in this movie.

Spoiler
My understanding (again, this is what I've gathered from others) she also murders a few other people in that scene, not just him. All of this in front of the kids, who aren't at all traumatized by a bad guy being turned to jello. I've also seen it pointed out as being particularly jarring because that scene was in the OG cut, except without the gratuitous violence. But Snyder HAD to Snyder that scene up because it's "cooler" or whatever.

I don't have a specific problem with Superheroes killing per se (though I think context matters) but this movie just delights in the random blood and gore, even in places it shouldn't be. Because Snyder has to Snyder all over everything.

Silver Shocker

Quote from: Tomato on March 22, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
In my defense, I was trying to obfuscate who I was talking about and the context of it, I just clearly didn't obfuscate it enough. It's also just ONE example of the level of violence in this movie.

Spoiler
My understanding (again, this is what I've gathered from others) she also murders a few other people in that scene, not just him. All of this in front of the kids, who aren't at all traumatized by a bad guy being turned to jello. I've also seen it pointed out as being particularly jarring because that scene was in the OG cut, except without the gratuitous violence. But Snyder HAD to Snyder that scene up because it's "cooler" or whatever.

I don't have a specific problem with Superheroes killing per se (though I think context matters) but this movie just delights in the random blood and gore, even in places it shouldn't be. Because Snyder has to Snyder all over everything.

Context is also why I don't have a problem with this scene except on a conceptual level.

Spoiler
Snyder said well over a year ago the Russian family weren't in his movie, so I wasn't exactly Spring-Heeled Jack to (correctly) leap to the conclusion.

The terrorists are much more trigger-happy and it takes WW a lot more effort to beat them. The one guy other than Roose she definitely kills (head-wound guy), she only does that because she hit him while he was shooting at her and then he was about to fly right into the hostages.

QuoteAll of this in front of the kids, who aren't at all traumatized by a bad guy being turned to jello.

There is no jello. There is no blood or gore in this scene other than head-wound guy. Not saying the rest of the movie doesn't go crazy on the violence - I know it does, and I'll see it in time - but this part is very much the equivalent of the warehouse fight.

An entry on Tvtropes claims WW disintegrated Roose with a shockwave, but there is a massive explosion as the wall gets blown out. I suppose it's open to debate, but doesn't seem to make sense to me if she does. Roose is no threat to her at this point. One could just say "because Snyder" but WW is very tactical and efficient during this sequence up to this point.

Many of the children are looking away or covering their face when it happens, so they never saw that, and there is no trace of Roose. There is also a lot of dust particles in the air from debris, which may have obscured the view. As for traumatized, it certainly looked to me like they were. This whole sequence is cut out of some YT clips, likely due to trimming down the footage trying to avoid copyright strikes. Several of the girls can be seen looking scared and shaken nervously, with rapid eye movements. It looks like many of them are forcing themselves to smile when Diana tries to cheer them up. Donna Troy (as the internet has chosen to call her) is still sitting down after everyone else has gotten up and Diana has to talk to her specifically to get her in good spirits. She's also shown hyperventilating when Roose is about to shoot the hostages, in a shot that is not in the Whedon cut.

I'll give you an example of a negative in the scene - not counting "lack of color" which will be a problem for the whole length of the movie, of course. The part where the suitcase bomb goes off is padded to hell and back in this version. The explosion is also considerably larger, but WW would have no way of knowing that, so it doesn't make her see more tactical in this case (she jumps out of the building then throws it up in this version - the only reason the hostages aren't killed during this part is because Roose gets stupid and switches a pistol out for his assault rifle)


Outside of that, I finally got the damn thing fired up. The ordeal was a truly outrageous one, and it was more expensive than I expecting as well. Streaming services are not our friends and I want to see this problem improved upon in the future.

I'm going to enjoy every last element of this movie I can - lord knows I payed for it.

Sadly, fatigue takes me, so the 4-hour slog will be saved for a later time. I had the option of posting a reply and watching the cut, or sleep, and sleep won. I did however, watch a chunk of the first scene....

The first scene is the most overdone goofiness, with one or two particular characters appearing in a capacity that amused me for the wrong reasons. I knew going in this thing was going to be indulgent, and yet the opening is far more indulgent than I could have ever guessed. It's so Zack Snyder, I had a big stupid grin on my face the whole time. Yeah, atrocious pacing aside, I think I can have fun with this. Be nice if it had more color though.  ^_^
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Tomato

#36
First part is about the scene SS and I have been discussing, so mild ish spoilers here.

Spoiler
So I looked the whole thing up myself now, since I was clearly misinformed on the context. I was told she blew a dude up, but in context it's a bit better than I was lead to believe. What I was told was that they'd had this "really cool" bit with WW saving everyone with the bracelets deflecting bullets, only to then blow a dude up.

That said, while I think your interpretation is probably what was *intended*, the way it is edited and put together makes it seem like she just finally has enough, bangs the bracelets together, and the resulting shockwave blows up that part of the bank. And I have a hard time believing it was cut down "for time" when this monster is 4 hours. So either it was edited badly, which is Snyder's fault because it's his cut, they didn't have the footage necessary to do it properly (in which case they should have left that bit as it was imo) or Snyder intentionally edited it to make it look more like she blew him up, because that's what he thinks is "cooler"

Putting my next bit in spoilers also (I intended it to be double layered but that doesn't work anymore, apparently), it's from the end of the film so like, big daddy spoilers ahead.

Spoiler
And none of that changes the fact that, during the time travel scene, we LITERALLY SEE several heroes reform from the skeleton back outward. I have seen this scene with my own eyes. Why do we need to see that? We don't see it going forward, but we LINGER on the tissue forming over Superman's hand as Barry is turning back time. That has no purpose being there except "Because Snyder" and would never, EVER have made it into a theatrical cut.

There's all kinds of other issues with the scene too. First of all, the portal opens to Darkseid, he sees Steppenwolf on the ground, no effort to come through or send more hordes or anything. Even after that, the portal's open for entire sections, but nah, Darkseid just stands there. He's not even lounging on a comfy chair or anything. Second, there's the whole wind up with Barry... first of all, rather than let it just be a cool silent moment where the character is stepping up, he's talking to himself with some rather awful dialogue. Then he does this "wind up" to the run which looks more like he's going to do a spin than a dang run (like, what. No one who actually runs would do that).

Again, I will credit the fact that, for all my friend's gripes of Superman still jobbing Steppenwolf, the rest of the League has more to actually do. But there are clearly still problems with this film, and it is only better because the original was so much worse. It needed someone to take a hacksaw to it in the editing room, and to allow the VFX team to focus on polishing up the remaining movie. The cgi is really, REALLY jarring in places, particularly because no one apparently cared about matching light sources properly. It doesn't help that Steppenwolf himself is practically a spotlight AT ALL TIMES, reflecting light that doesn't actually exist in many of the sets he's in.

Silver Shocker

#37
I have finally seen the Flash and Cyborg Cut Snyder Cut.

I really, really liked it. It's not perfect by any means, but there's a lot in here I like.

Tom, you've given me some food for thought. Here's some more reply.

Spoiler


QuoteThat said, while I think your interpretation is probably what was *intended*, the way it is edited and put together makes it seem like she just finally has enough, bangs the bracelets together, and the resulting shockwave blows up that part of the bank. And I have a hard time believing it was cut down "for time" when this monster is 4 hours. So either it was edited badly, which is Snyder's fault because it's his cut, they didn't have the footage necessary to do it properly (in which case they should have left that bit as it was imo) or Snyder intentionally edited it to make it look more like she blew him up, because that's what he thinks is "cooler"

Yes, this scene is a bit puzzling because of the various components of how it is laid out. And the fact that it's not clear as a result whether WW directly or indirectly killed Roose is too bad. If it's direct, I'll fully cop, I think it's more than a bit crap. It's unnecessary, creates (for some reason, "because Snyder" I suppose) massive property damage (oh right, this is technically a Man of Steel/BVS followup) that almost lands on the Swat guys. It makes WW out like a butcher AND an idiot when she just used split second tactics to keep everyone alive. She could have snapped Roose's neck, threw him out a window, oh I don't know....knock him out. Anything other than blow the wall out.

Anyway, I didn't spell it out, but I didn't mean I thought it was edited for time. I meant because it could be considered to be in extremely bad taste to put this particular sequence out right now.

QuoteAnd none of that changes the fact that, during the time travel scene, we LITERALLY SEE several heroes reform from the skeleton back outward. I have seen this scene with my own eyes. Why do we need to see that? We don't see it going forward, but we LINGER on the tissue forming over Superman's hand as Barry is turning back time. That has no purpose being there except "Because Snyder" and would never, EVER have made it into a theatrical cut.

There's all kinds of other issues with the scene too.

So thanks for clarifying. I was actually curious, having now seen the movie, which part you thought was particularly Snyder.

I'll get to Flash later in my post, outside of this bubble, but because this is the big "hero moment" for the new and improved Ezra Miller Flash, I love love love love LOVE this part of the movie. AND YET........

It is probably the most indulgent part of a movie that is indulgent in quite a lot of areas. Not counting the Knightmare sequence of course, which is not supposed to be here.

For one thing, it's about 4 times longer than it needs to be.

Even though I love the character work involved in this moment, the moment-to-moment of it could have been, and yes, IMO, probably should have been, toned the heck down.

I mean, this IS a version of Apocalpse War's ending that doesn't junk the entire movie. That's actually pretty cool, and the fact that it's also character development at the same time makes it even more nice.

Somewhere in the proverbial editing room, perhaps, lies a edit of this movie that improves on this and other imperfections. And yet...


Man, the Snyder Cut really improved on a lot of key areas. It's still got a lot of issues, but holy crap is Flash a better character in this movie. And Cyborg actually IS a character. I was not expecting their achievements in this movie to be so significant as they are. It's a crying shame that almost none of that came through in the 2017 cut; if it had, I kinda feel like the 2017 cut might have been accepted to a degree on its own and the Snyder Cut could have been deemed unnecessary. As it is, I think it's great people finally got to see this thing and see what these two characters were SUPPOSED to be capable of. For this reason, looking up the reception to it has almost been as enjoyable, if not more, than the film itself.

For those who wish to continue to dismiss Snyder, I would guess a good chunk of this character work is the work of screenwriter Chris Terreo, who described BVS as being more like Empire Strikes Back, and this movie as more like Return of the Jedi. Which is a somewhat iffy metaphor but I think I agree with the nucleolus of the idea. Actually, before I forget, Ray Fisher himself (Cyborg) wrote for all the Cyborg stuff.

And Aquaman's not a walking meme. Impressively, the infamous "mah man" is actually a legit good moment in context of the Snyder Cut, since it comes after Arthur gives Cyborg a much needed pep talk. [edit, actually, I remembered wrong. He said it to Flash, but the line was "I never said I didn't care.". I'm pretty sure (?) that was never in the 2017, and in general Arthur being treated more seriously makes it feel more earned.]

And Steppenwolf is actually a more fleshed out and more threatening villain. And Darkseid was actually kinda cool. And Batman didn't completely job in this movie.

It was kinda fun to see Leto's Joker play off Batfleck, but otherwise, the Knightmare scene was utter crap that had no business being in the gosh darn movie.

It would have nice if this thing had more color. And if Cyborg would lighten up a bit more, allowing Ray Fisher to show more range. And if Iris was an actual character. And if Aquaman didn't largely exist to advertise a movie that already came out. And yet, I got to see the Snyder Cut and that's pretty neat.

Outside of that Aquaman chanting scene (why was that in the movie?) I more or less enjoyed pretty much every minute of this movie. I actually kinda want to see a sequel to it. It has an actual story this time.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

Shogunn2517

Yeah SS that was one of my original complaints was the mess that was the plot of the theatrical version. I mean I know comics, I know continuity but I could not make heads or tails of what the hell was going on.  And while a part of me wants to say "yeah Snyder had four hours to actually explain things, I'm not entirely sure if it was just that.

And about what you said about Ray Fisher, that's surprising. I didn't know that and it kinda puts his beef that he had with JW and WB in yet another light, but I can't hate on him for it, the proof is literally in the pudding. Everyone who has seen this has said that, like you said, he's an actual character. That was the original vision and that was taken away from him. I'd feel salty just for that alone, but considering the other stuff.... I won't get into it, but what you said made me appreciate what he did in the movie more.

Silver Shocker

#39
Oh I know right?

Quotebut I could not make heads or tails of what the hell was going on.

Like best example, the parademon at the beginning explodes into goo, and the goo splatter is a drawing of the mother boxes and that's how they knew about the mother boxes....what kinda sense does that make?

It's like Suicide Squad....or the post credit scene with Lex on the boat in the 2017...you can tell they switched stuff out.

On Cyborg:

Spoiler


"I don't praise Chris Terrio and @ZackSnyder
for simply putting me in Justice League.

I praise them for EMPOWERING me (a black man with no film credits to his name) with a seat at the creative table and input on the framing of the Stones before there was even a script!"


Like this is the stuff that blows my ever-loving mind, the Cyborg story. You got Steppenwolf jumping in like a ninja and grabbing the box while they calm down Supes, and he goes "peace out" and leaves in the Boom Tube. And you're telling me you couldn't make the movie a few more minutes over 2 hours, get in the scene where Vic's Dad gets it, then do some reshoots with Vic, where he's talking to Arthur or someone, then add back in the scene at the end where he's listening to the tape recorder?

Like, Flash still got the scene where he tells Henry Allen he got a job at the crime lab, and they set that up at the start of the flick, but Cyborg got nothing. Like they totally did him dirty.

Other things I remembered:

Spoiler

-I was just thinking, maybe if MM ever appears in another movie, they could establish that MM, like in Supergirl, was taking the form of someone who already exist and Lennix wasn't actually MM in the previous films, only this one. That would go a long way to explaining it, because as is, it makes no sense. After all, no human being watched that and went "holy crap, Martha Kent was MM the whole time?" I'd be in favor for that. It'd go a long way to redeeming that sloppy retcon, and Lennix is a pretty legit choice for J'onn J'onz. the facial animation for him was pretty dodgy but the voice totally worked for me.

-I was saying this when they did the time distorting with Flash, while I was watching the movie. The Ezra Millar cameo in the Arrowverse finally makes sense. "I told Victor this was possible." MAH MAN!

"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa