Real world watchmen?

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I'll also joint in with the cries of disgust at electro's criminal vigilantism.  It's one thing to stop a crime or arrest a criminal (which you can do within the law under the right circumstances) it's another to impose your own thuglike justice on anyone you believe has done wrong.  Such behavior ALWAYS results in innocents being hurt.  The little guy always suffers and the person claiming justice becomes the very worst of oppressors.

[The Hitman]

Yikes!

[electro]

Ok I think yall have enlightend me now with your wisdom - Don't do Justice yourselves - Rely on scetch artist, store bannings, goverment to be the deterent seeing how it's working so well thus far in my neck of the woods & here I thought it was just tolerance run a'muck Man i'm dumb - So that's why I thought comics like Marvel's The Intitative where so stale because I just wasn't enlightened yet

[thalaw2]

Let's keep it on topic guys. 

[Figure Fan]

Actually, this discussion isn't totally off-topic, but I think backing away from the harsher targeted posts is a good idea.

I suppose that these real world superheroes carry weapons on them for self-defense, which makes sense. Even if they were only out there to serve as eyes and ears for local law enforcement, it doesn't mean that someone wouldn't attack them. So that, to me, makes sense. Hopefully they aren't out there maiming those who they suspect to be criminals. That's why we have court systems and laws. But, what happens when these fail? Just because a case couldn't be proven to a judge and/or jury doesn't make that result correct, or even acceptable. So what do you do when this happens? Typically, this is where the urge to commit acts of self-initiated justice come in. Since I'm not siding either way, I'd like to put a few questions out there. What happens if someone you loved was killed, and the killer got off free of charge? Would you take it as it is and let it go? In this case, I fear that vigilantism may prevail. Maybe not, though. If it didn't, could you live with such a result?

Who exactly is a superhero, or even a hero at that? I don't consider heroes to be those who wear masks, necessarily. Take Martin Luther King, for example. He is a true hero to me. Through the use of non-violence, he was able to achieve so much in the way of equality. He wanted to make the world a better place, and he set out to do so. Did he wear a costume? Not really, unless you count his dressy suits. Now take a character like Ozymandias in his post-adventuring days. He was a hero just as Martin Luther King was, especially in the way that he set out to improve peoples' lives with renewable energy and scientific advancements. However, as most of us know, he didn't totally rely on non-violence to achieve his ultimate goal of a prosperous world. In this case, and as far as we can speculate, violence proved to be a useful tool in bringing positive change.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with his methods, so don't be afraid of me or something crazy. But, I guess I'm just trying to say that discounting violence as totally destructive and unnecessary isn't correct, either. After all, we still do go to war to bring about change. Think whatever you will about that. Without violence, there would be no non-violence. They must both exist in order to justify one another.

Okay, I'm done for now. Feel free to quote me or what have you. Hopefully I haven't overstepped my posterly bounds.

[BentonGrey]

I think going more general with this is probably a good idea.  As far as Ozy is concerned...I think the necessity of his actions is still somewhat undetermined.  Was nuclear war inevitable?  Perhaps, but perhaps not.  I stand by the idea that true heroism is about self-sacrifice rather than sacrificing others.  To return to Frye's Archetypal theories once more, Ozy might be classified as a "Leader," one who stands out from his fellow man and makes difficult choices, but who is ultimately subject to moral judgments. 

As to the more...difficult questions here.  Well, let me add this for us all to think about.  The following is a story I don't tell very often.  A very good friend of mine, a girl whom I was quite close to, had something terrible happen to her one night.  I'm sure you can all fill in the blanks.  I was around three hours away, but when I heard about it I prepared to drive home from school, get my gun, and go after the man who had done this.  Maybe I would have killed him, maybe I just would have hurt him, I don't know.  She refused to tell me who it was, and that may have saved this man's life.  However, that refusal also spared me a terrible decision.  Who are we to judge even the worst of crimes?  If I had done that, I would have had to live the rest of my life with the knowledge, maybe gone to jail, and all in the search for a vengeance that wasn't mine to take.  There are good reasons for an impersonal justice system, and although it doesn't work perfectly...it is better than the alternative.

[Jakew]

Weird thread 

Basically, patrolling the streets and dispensing rough justice to people doesn't work, because people aren't infallible and you'll be putting yourself or others in danger. Police officers go through training in order to be allowed to judge who is "wrong" or "right", and even they are held accountable for their actions.

Defending yourself or others if the situation calls for it = fair enough, although I can totally understand BentonGrey's story about wanting revenge when something awful happens to a close friend.

Getting involved in the community through charity work or social awareness programs is also a great way to help people. It isn't as "cool" as disguises, and a hidden lair full of gadgets but its rewarding ... well, more rewarding than whaling on them with your family members, I'd assume.

On another subject, has anyone ever seen one of these "real-life" costumed vigilantes?

[Figure Fan]

Good points both of you.

And Benton--WOW. It does make you wonder, that's for sure.

As for your comment on Ozymandias..I was thinking that he DOES sacrifice himself, to some extent. His sanity for sure. I mean, like he says in the book, someone had to the bear the burden of making a choice like that. Say it were the only alternative to a nuclear crisis, and he didn't decide to do it, what would have happened? I wonder how I'm even able to make a case for such an atrocious act, but then again, it is better than having the entire planet destroyed. As sad as that may be to say..

As for seeing heroes in public--no, I haven't. I wish I could, though, if only once.

[lugaru]

On another subject, has anyone ever seen one of these "real-life" costumed vigilantes?

Never SEEN one, that is for sure, although I've been around a lot of masked protesters both in Mexico and here. Honestly I cannot picture myself putting on a costume unless I was doing some charity for kids or if what I felt I needed to do was potentially illegal like harrassing CEOs or something.

[tommyboy]

I suppose the things to ask about real-life vigilantes (they aren't "super" heroes to my mind, masked adventurers, mystery men maybe) is what is the motive?
Do we (and/or they) believe that;
1. the criminal justice system works
2. it works mostly but wrong doers get off entirely or are punished too lightly sometimes
3. it works sometimes but wrong doers get off entirely or are punished too lightly often
4. it doesn't work at all
If you believe 1, then your motives maybe are thrill-seeking, a need to commit violence, a death-wish or other. Mainly you probably need counseling at the very least.

If you believe 2 or 3, is the best way to improve things to take the law into our own hands? Are we better trained, or informed than the "system". Are we more impartial? Is a beating more of a deterrent or tool of rehabilitation than what the "system" offers? If we eschew the law, and a system of trials, and evidence, and proof beyond reasonable doubt in favour of Might Makes Right, can we claim any sort of moral high ground? What makes a Vigilante beating a man for selling stolen goods better than a Mugger beating the same man in order to steal the goods? How do we know we are Right? What standards of proof are Vigilantes held to, and if you question them on it, will they just tazer you and beat you?

If you believe 4, everything I've said above applies to you, particularly the bit about counseling.

[herodad1]

actually here in mcminnville tenn. we have a young guy that has a homemade costume who has been seen at night walking the town.also seen during the day.hes dressed in black and his mask has ears.he works during the day as a mild mannered cook at the waffle house.havent heard of any foiled crimes yet.then again...he could be a villian.

[lugaru]

then again...he could be a villian.

You would probably know by now, unless his villain name is "The Loiterer".

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I suppose the things to ask about real-life vigilantes (they aren't "super" heroes to my mind, masked adventurers, mystery men maybe) is what is the motive?

You forgot

5.  Believes that the justice system works, but is dependent upon individuals helping and working with the system.

[herodad1]

that was a good one lugaru!

[herodad1]

Ok, had to really search to find this thread but wanted to share this. i mentioned a guy in our town that dressed in his hero garb and patrolled our streets. well, he made the news. here's the exclusive on...CATMAN!  http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=12862446

[cmdrkoenig67]

 

Seriously, though....It's good to see some folks wanting to help others...That's what matters most.

Dana

[NeoDarke]

/em Reads title

"Rorschach's journal. July 28th, 2010:"

[herodad1]

yeah, your right dana...thats what really matters.

[JeyNyce]

I love the idea of dressing up and helping people, it's a great thing.  Making a website and promoting yourself.....not very fond of.  I can understand why they are doing it, so people won't be scare of think of them as a joke, but it feels like they are looking for attention.  Maybe it's just me.

[BWPS]

I love the idea of dressing up and helping people, it's a great thing.  Making a website and promoting yourself.....not very fond of.  I can understand why they are doing it, so people won't be scare of think of them as a joke, but it feels like they are looking for attention.  Maybe it's just me.

He's named himself CATMAN and wears a costume. I think the only reason you would ever do that is you're looking for attention.

[Tawodi Osdi]

I read something like this in Yahoo! news a few months ago, but most of those guys weren't doing crime fighting.  They used their costumes as an argument for a cause the way some artists and actors use their skills for a cause, and personally, if I saw a crime happening and had reasonable chance of stopping it without dying in the process, I hope I would have the courage to do something about.  I do have a martial arts background, but I hate fighting (I never said I was entirely consistent).  Dressing up in a costume to go out looking for crime to fight, that sounds problematic.  First, you would have no authority to arrest anyone; so, apart from bruising them up a little bit you aren't doing that much.

As for carrying weapons, I come from a gun state.  If I was terribly afraid of crime, I'd by a pistol and a conceal and carry license; however, I would be somewhat peevish about masked men carrying guns.  My state is also an old west state, and I do have outlaw ancestors.