Freedom Reborn Archive

http://www.champions-online.com/

Yaaaaaaaaaaay! A Superhero MMO that isn't CoH! :)

 :blink:  Want...

Quote from: captainspud on February 20, 2008, 01:19:29 PM
http://www.champions-online.com/

Yaaaaaaaaaaay! A Superhero MMO that isn't CoH! :)

Hmmm...

lets see how this goes.  Found a little info about this elsewhere.

QuoteRead this from the Hero Games forums:

Points of interest from the Game Informer article:

# The game has classes, but every class has access to every power. Class defines how many points each power costs for your character.

Oooo.  I like!

# Graphics are a 3D/cell shading hybrid that Cryptic calls "comic shading".

Interesting.

# The underground arena circuit allows PvP.

First rule of Fight club...

# Only heroes at launch. Dark Champions as an expansion later.

I'm not surprised.

# Fully customizable characters,powers and movement types (floating, running on all fours etc).

Take what made COH great and do it better?  I dunno'.  I'll believethis when I see it.... but boy is it interesting.

# Secret identities.

Cool!

# Customizable arch-nemesis. If you ever decide to kill off or incarcerate your arch-nemesis, you will be able to create a new one.

Cooler!

# The game will take place world wide, not in just one city.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

# Planned zones: underground cities, dinosaur-infested island, secret desert military base.

Very niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

# The game has been created with Cryptic's proprietary game engine called "Game Tech".

# The game will also include voice dialogue and cutscenes.

# Scheduled for a 2009 release.

2009?  Thats pretty fast.  No doubt this is what was supposed to be MUO.  Hmmm.  Anxious to see this.  Curious to see what COH will do to keep up... if Cryptic keeps up to its word.

RTT

Already signed into the forums but we need some one to start a thread for Freedom Reborn in the SuperTeams section before our name might get taken.

From what TW and a few other random people tell me, and from what I saw, it looks like this is just a more versatile version of COH. In fact, going by what I've read elsewhere, from the facts stated, this game is *allegedly* close to what CoH was during beta mode. Is there any truth to that? Paging Zapow.

Quote from: RTTingle on February 20, 2008, 04:25:32 PM2009?  Thats pretty fast.  No doubt this is what was supposed to be MUO.  Hmmm.  Anxious to see this.  Curious to see what COH will do to keep up... if Cryptic keeps up to its word.

According to the Game Informer article, it was MUO.  They owned the game engine and just lost the license.  Since they own the Champions RPG, they just turned around and made the switch to their own IP.  The pictures shown in the article look great.  IMHO, it looks much better than City of Heroes.  The proportions just look better.  It mentioned something about eliminating the "cool down" of actions and making every power, stance and appearance option fully customizable.  It's supposed to be quicker, being able to play it without having your screen cluttered with an extensive HUD.   Xbox 360 and PC players will also be able to play each other from the get go.  Ah, and there will be loot. (yay!)
I was waiting for MUO, but I think it's demise was just what we needed.  I will probably get in on this one.

This definitely caught my attention.  One thing that I wish could be hard wired into the game (or at least entertained as an option for some but not a requirement of all) would be an element of RP that would, of necessity, limit the number of one-dimensional capes running about and increase the number of round characters.  What always annoyed me with CoH is the sheer number of personalities (or lack thereof) flying by in search of disposable quarries who might as well be playing multiplayer Quake or DOOM or Halo or Fill In Your Favourite Shooter Here.  I would be truly thrilled to play a MMORPG where, for instance, a team of RP-savvy Cryptic staffers would take turns (on a regular basis--not just for special events or the premiere of new issues) filling the shoes of key NPCs, providing live dialogue, furthering or hindering players' story arcs (depending on how the player realises his or her campaign), etc.  I would eagerly sign on to an online superhero RPG where neighbourhood/city/world development (and not just base development)--which means not only having a hand in urban planning (the analog to base layout) but also personal investment, civic responsibility, regular patrolling, public and political relationships, collaboration between well-developed teams, etc.--were an option for high-level players.  In short, if I could enjoy the benefits of a blend of coded automation (combat mechanics, leveling, commerce, random mob encounters, emotes that more interactively affect the environment (Could I shake someone's hand, please?)) and human innovation (live NPCs, dynamic--not canned--conflict) when it comes to performing the actions of a GM AND be part of a community of true role players simultaneously, I would never be dissuaded from mucking in for the long term. 

My best teaming experiences on CoX--and I very, very rarely team--were with folks such as BlueBard, Uncle Yuan, and TPE, all of whom were able to bring their love of RP to a game world that is in many ways inimical to a rewarding RP experience: practically all level grinding, IMHO.  I could say more, but it's not necessary for me to do so.  We all know the games' limitations.

Of course, I know I am asking too much--as someone who cut his teeth on MUSHes, MUCKs, MOOs, and more RP-oriented MUDs--of any company willing to cater to only the first three letters of MMORPG.  Moreover, to a certain extent, I firmly believe that true RP militates against most forms of mass marketing, so I should never expect to meet the creature I envision in a highly successful, wide-scale, subscription-based MMOG.  I know others have sung this song before (when criticising CoX), but, for once, we are witnessing a superhero MMOG ostensibly linking itself to a good ol' pencil-and-paper RPG: I just wish I could trust it to live up to the game genre's name (not to mention the Champions legacy).

I like the higher level of customisation that this game promises, but something tells me that, beyond those advancements, 'twill be but a shinier version of CoX.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning

i just started a thread in the superteams section for freedom reborn...   i'm thinking a few COX guys might migrate over there.

My #1 wish for this is for them to scrap the "fight legions and legions of faceless drones" gameplay of CoH. I'm a superhero, I don't want to fight goons with guns. I want to fight villains-- one on one. I want a knock-down fight that takes five to ten minutes to resolve.

Having some gang-based factions is fine, but it really tears the thematics away when all you're fighting are goons, and you need backup to take on even the smallest name-brand villains.

Quote from: captainspud on February 21, 2008, 06:49:46 AM
My #1 wish for this is for them to scrap the "fight legions and legions of faceless drones" gameplay of CoH. I'm a superhero, I don't want to fight goons with guns. I want to fight villains-- one on one. I want a knock-down fight that takes five to ten minutes to resolve.

Having some gang-based factions is fine, but it really tears the thematics away when all you're fighting are goons, and you need backup to take on even the smallest name-brand villains.

You just identified my biggest pet peeve with CoH. I want to fight costumed villains! And not just in task forces. It's really annoying when you get to the big, bad gang leader, he looks just like all the other gang members, just with more power.

Also, the fact that when you enter a mission (having played for a while), that it only takes a few minutes before you know the layout of the entire base -- because you've been in a bazillion bases with exactly the same layout already.

That's where I like the open world layout of LOTRO better; every zone, every location is unique.

The strength to the CoH method is that you can instance the missions and make them scalable to group size. Scalable missions are great. Now if someone could just figure out how to incorporate scalable missions to a more open world environment.

Being able to create your own archvillain is an awesome concept for storyline players. With my own pen-and-paper games, I love creating backstories that include arch-enemies.  :)

Hmm......I never was terribly interested in COH...in fact, I'm just not much of an MMO kind of guy, but this has me vaguely curious.

Just read the Game Informer article and it has me interested.  Since I count more as a casual gamer and my PC is getting up in age, being able to play this on the 360 is great.  I think the main question I'll have will be regarding subscription fees. 

Edit:  As an oh by the way.  I'm not sure how well they can live up to the promise of the game being world-wide rather than just a city.  They have to fit the entire game into a DVD to be able to play on the 360.  Unless, they don't do a lot with environment textures.  Even then, I'm worried that all the similar type areas will just feel the same as each other. 

I like fighting goons. Love it in fact. I just don't like it when it's in the form of an mmorpg. Click on a guy, press attack buttons over and over until one of you dies. Repeat. See, if it was more like a beat em up or, say, Ultimate Alliance (glorified beat em up anyhow) then I would LOVE it. With costumed villains as bosses.

Still... I'm excited for the customization. The way a character looks and moves has always been important to me. That's why I still stick to Freedom Force. I hardly play it anymore, but I can make a character exactly how I want it. Thus, this is interesting me already.

And, man... it'd be sweet to get in on the ground floor for one of these things. When I finally got to CoH everybody I knew were basically level capped. Guild Wars? Way ahead of me. Working my way up with people I know instead of teaming with random idiots (another reason I dislike MMOs)? Awesome.

Interesting article over on Gamasutra... Jack Emmert talks about the lessons learned from COH.

QuoteDoes an MMO need 400 hours of gameplay? "Frankly, we were naive and enthusiastic, and we said, 'sure.' So we calculated everything on the assumption... that you'd have to make 400 hours worth of missions," began Cryptic Studios Jack Emmert, as he explained how City of Heroes was developed to order for NCsoft.

Nor were any microtransactions planned. But the aim was to deliver original content once every three months -- it ended up not being quite so often. On its release, the game had its strengths and weaknesses like any other. As far as the former, there were character customization options and moment-to-moment gameplay. As to the latter, there was missing PvP and an absence of new loot, on which typical MMO players thrive.

By 2004, the game's subscriber base had grown to 180,000 in North America. "But on our first update, we did nothing to address the game's weaknesses," said Emmert. Focused on bug fixes and content past level 50, the team overlooked those content absences that resulted in a loss of players. "If you don't have [PvP] at launch, you can never add it," warned Emmert.

"We tried to address the weaknesses that we had, but we really did it in a way that simply re-used content that we already had," he continued. "It didn't change the fact that there were repetitive instances; it didn't change the fact that there was nothing to do besides leveling... Anybody who was turned off by those weaknesses, we were doing nothing to help them."

And six months later, WoW hit the scene. "It's conceivable that the players would have stuck around if not for the fact that WoW came out. When WoW came out, we lost about a third of our subscriber base," Emmert explained.

In 2005, City of Heroes saw its European launch, soon followed by City of Villains. But, Emmert said, "What I really delivered was a City of Heroes experience with a slightly evil twist." He neglected to connect to what players might want from being a villain. "If they didn't like City of Heroes, there was nothing here for them... I can't even tell you the disappointment I have. It hurts."

Now the team was trying to add new content to City of Heroes -- like a PvP arena -- while keeping City of Villains in mind. "It was extremely difficult; we were just giving features to people who didn't want them," Emmert said, noting that all the PvP players were off playing WoW.

"Jeremy Gaffney of NCsoft was adamant that we should add some sort of endgame," continued Emmert. But given that few people had reached a high enough level, they decided to add new content at precisely the point that the vast majority of players were. "But what I didn't think about is that players are always looking forward to tomorrow," he said, elaborating that the content lost value three months down the road.

Challenges for the team in maintaining game balance continued, Emmert recalled, pointing out the popular nickname "City of Nerfs." "I had a theory about balance... that everyone should have, or at least should feel like they have an equal role when they're in a team, that no player feels less than another. And secondly, everyone should progress through the game equally."

In 2006, a couple of big decisions were made. NCsoft decided there would be no more retail; the live team shrank by 75 percent. "We had to drastically change what our expectations are," Emmert said. "Our expectations on the amount of content we could deliver had to change." A new lead designer, Matt "Positron" Miller was appointed, and the newly-small dev team had to trend away from content-heavy features. But, says Emmert, this turned out to be a surprise boon -- instead of adding new zones, they were forced to add depth and detail to some zones that already existed that might otherwise have been bland and empty.

The team renewed its "focus on the fan" that year, too: "No more nerfs... it was driving me nuts. I just couldn't take it anymore." Despite the forum raging and conflict, however, Emmert stressed: "No nerf ever, ever caused a statistical drop in subscription base, ever. I tracked every single one, and never, in that particular day, week or month, did more people drop the game than in any other particular month. Fascinating."

Deadlands creator Shane Hensley had a theory that one should always personally get to know one's fans, and Emmert says he took a page from that philosophy. "I really want the fans to get to know me. But the downside is, because it's the internet, people twist my words so badly... I seem like the son of Satan. But what are you going to do? I think that my customers are my customers, and they deserve some level of communication."

By 2007, the team introduced an invention system to City of Heroes and City of Villains. The nerfs were gone and the old, generic zones had been refurbished. "There is one nerf that I did that we lost a couple thousand people on," he admits. "It was called enhancement diversification... and that really did make people mad."

The net effect of the updates was high retention versus a "typical" MMORPG from month one to month two -- a rate of about 90 percent, Emmert said, high above his colleagues' two thirds loss on other games. The retention month after month continued to be static, moreover. "The people who remain, you can't get rid of them... it's absolutely impossible to do it because they're so used to the pain and agony of the gameplay that they love it."

City of Heroes/Villains never brought in a large-scale migration of new players, however. Even City of Villains only added some 60 thousand people to the player base, not a good deal in the grand scheme of things. But with the update packs, Emmert said, there was a constant period of re-acquisition as new players came back to investigate the new content. "We have such a large customer base, we sent out an email whenever an update came out, and several thousand people would re-up... so you end up staying pretty static."

So what are the lessons learned? "Don't design to the max," states Emmert. "Account for new systems. If you don't have the money or the team size to be able to ship a game with, say, an elaborate guild system, make sure you plan out what you plan to have guilds do in the future. Make sure you have an understanding of how it will happen." Second, consider the player nature. "It's a strange MMO market right now, but I think because WoW is so vast and so popular, that if you launch a game and you don't have a particular feature, like endgame, people will just say, 'ah, I'll go back to playing WoW."

"Think about how easy it is to update your systems. We created a leveling system, as well as powers, that it was extremely hard to add new things on," he said. The superpower structure in particular made it difficult to expand the level cap. "WoW solved that by saying, 'you can take the same power and rank it up.' But we basically created... a self-containing system that [made it] very difficult to get up to level 50. And expect that there will be players who go nuts."

Finally, consider player nature. "People will make it as un-fun as they possibly can if they think there's something to gain by that," Emmert added, concluding, "Worry about the players you've got. Don't worry about the players you don't have. You are what you are at launch," advised Emmert.

I have to say, I found this part pretty funny...

QuoteThe team renewed its "focus on the fan" that year, too: "No more nerfs... it was driving me nuts. I just couldn't take it anymore." Despite the forum raging and conflict, however, Emmert stressed: "No nerf ever, ever caused a statistical drop in subscription base, ever. I tracked every single one, and never, in that particular day, week or month, did more people drop the game than in any other particular month. Fascinating."

Because just two paragraphs later we get...

QuoteBy 2007, the team introduced an invention system to City of Heroes and City of Villains. The nerfs were gone and the old, generic zones had been refurbished. "There is one nerf that I did that we lost a couple thousand people on," he admits. "It was called enhancement diversification... and that really did make people mad."

RTT

Thing is, "a couple thousand people" isn't a huge number for them. It's a tiny portion of the playerbase. So statistically it's not significant, but you can look at it in a vacuum and draw some possible inferences.

Quote from: TigerStyle on February 21, 2008, 05:34:50 PM
Just read the Game Informer article and it has me interested.  Since I count more as a casual gamer and my PC is getting up in age, being able to play this on the 360 is great.  I think the main question I'll have will be regarding subscription fees. 

Edit:  As an oh by the way.  I'm not sure how well they can live up to the promise of the game being world-wide rather than just a city.  They have to fit the entire game into a DVD to be able to play on the 360.  Unless, they don't do a lot with environment textures.  Even then, I'm worried that all the similar type areas will just feel the same as each other. 

They could just put it out on two DvDs, that is how it worked for the Game of the Year Edition of Oblivion I bought for the 360. Install the extra stuff from one disc then play with the other.

Even WoW's initial install was only 3 or 4 CDs which is slightly shy from a full size DVD. That install put in the entirety of the old world Azeroth and all of the assorted textures and such in the game. They could just hold back some of the content until a bit after release if size is really an issue. After all now including the Burning Crusade expansion WoW clocks in at a total of 10.3 gigs on my pc.

To repeat my usual stance, anything run by Statesdouche without common sense supplied by someone like Zeb Cook is not worth wasting my money on. I quit COH until I got into COV beta and saw what a game developer with brains and the sense to go outside of things like "vision" could do. COV got me back in, and guys like Castle have kept me around.

Than there's the fact they're tacking on another universe into a game that was already designed with Marvel in mind. Are we going to see hack jobs like the 5th Column take over that the current devs are still trying to clean up? And how long till this game gets "diversified"?

I'll sit back and wait, in the hopes NCsoft hands Posi and Co. a few million for COH2 and lets them show States how to properly develop game without crapping on the fanbase.

Quote from: captainspud on February 21, 2008, 09:23:07 PM
Thing is, "a couple thousand people" isn't a huge number for them. It's a tiny portion of the playerbase. So statistically it's not significant, but you can look at it in a vacuum and draw some possible inferences.

You know what they say.  There are lies, damn lies and statistics.  Sure statistically, it may have been nothing... but he proceeded to say he tracked the game to the day, week and month and there was no drop.    It just makes me wonder where he got the numbers for "lost a couple thousand people" when later mentioning ED and what column for the statistics tracking he put them under. 

I found the article interesting in a lot of different ways and I think its an interesting attempt, in my opinion at least, from States to draw confidence into their new product by showing he recognized the issues with this product and will use that experience to make this product better.

My question is why didn't they apply it to this game?  For example...

QuoteIn 2005, City of Heroes saw its European launch, soon followed by City of Villains. But, Emmert said, "What I really delivered was a City of Heroes experience with a slightly evil twist." He neglected to connect to what players might want from being a villain. "If they didn't like City of Heroes, there was nothing here for them... I can't even tell you the disappointment I have. It hurts."

People have been complaining that COV wasn't evil enough from the get go.  He finally acknowledges that.  An example someone else used was it was hard to get into it when the only difference between the COH and COV missions was the term "rescue" was swapped out for "kidnapped".  The missions were well designed, with nice maps and all --- but lets face it... it was rare when a mission truly made you feel evil.  I actually felt like I was playing COH in darker shades and tones.  After all, we were fighting villians more than we were anything else.  The Mayhem Missions were a step in the right direction, but its a tad bit too little, too late.

As an aside... I loved COV.  It finally gave me pistols after all  :P  I really think the ATs were interesting, I thought the world and missions were beautifully detailed - if a bit too dark and that the missions were just incredible.  It made me wish COH could be like that.  So why didn't I play?  I'm a casual player - still was looking to finish the first game, which took me just under 3 years.  I had no desire to play virtually the same game with a new coat of paint.  COV didn't offer enough of a difference for me.

Most interesting part of the article?

QuoteIn 2006, a couple of big decisions were made. NCsoft decided there would be no more retail; the live team shrank by 75 percent. "We had to drastically change what our expectations are," Emmert said. "Our expectations on the amount of content we could deliver had to change." A new lead designer, Matt "Positron" Miller was appointed, and the newly-small dev team had to trend away from content-heavy features. But, says Emmert, this turned out to be a surprise boon -- instead of adding new zones, they were forced to add depth and detail to some zones that already existed that might otherwise have been bland and empty.

I'm still trying to figure out how accurate this is.  Have to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back and read through some old messages.  Who exactly decided what?  Did Cryptic of NCsoft decide there would be no more retail?  Did Cryptic pull people off COH for the MUO because of that decision and is that why the team shrank?  Lot of what ifs and could bes.  Certainly could put NCSoft into a different light for me depending what else comes out.

Irregardless, I think what they did with COH in the past year with the smaller team really was great.  They took what they had and made it better.  The redone zones, inventions & weapon customization, all very nice.  Just too little, too late in my opinion.

Lets run wild with speculation for a moment though.

So, lets say a lot of plans were made for a new box expansion of COH2.  How much of it do you think we're seeing now or will see in the near future?  The few new powers?  Weapon customization possibly?  The long talked about space zone?

Now, how much of that planned new expansion was funneled off COH to their new Hero project, formerly known as MUO - now Champions Online?  Looking over the features hyped, it certainly is interesting.  It's something I certainly do wish was COH2.

So, without a doubt --- to me, Champions is basically going to be COH V.2.  Sure the system will be overhauled.  But remember... wasn't it Jack who came in and basically changed the free for all powers thing and defined everything into classes (I have to look more into that, but I'm pretty sure thats what happened?) that delayed the game another year or so?  So this is really what COH should have been from the start... but better.

I'm looking forward to it. 

If nothing else... I'm hoping the competition lights a fire under NCSoft to truly do some great things with COH.

Win-win if you ask me.

Quote from: Verfall on February 22, 2008, 12:31:27 AM
Grrrr! Arrggh!

One thing to keep in mind... CoH was States' first game. He didn't really know what he was doing back then. Now, he's had 5+ years of experience; I'm sure he's a little better at it now than he was when CoH launched.

How much you wanna bet ol' Jack's new online persona will be Defender?  :P

Seriously, though... customizable powers, including color?  No more powerset lock-in?  I am so there... depending on price and a few other factors.

I remember having a copy of the Champions rules myself.  One of the earlier editions, too, though I couldn't tell you which edition now.  It was one of the more complex RPG's around at the time.

Quote from: captainspud on February 22, 2008, 06:34:23 AM

Quote from: Verfall on February 22, 2008, 12:31:27 AM
Grrrr! Arrggh!

One thing to keep in mind... CoH was States' first game. He didn't really know what he was doing back then. Now, he's had 5+ years of experience; I'm sure he's a little better at it now than he was when CoH launched.

So he learned to basically take the ideas of of the COV team, the players and whatever COH is throwing out now, and actually make them work rather than go off about the vision and his gameboy? I'm willing to be money he still doesn't know what he's doing. The guy is not lead dev material. And where'd Geko go? If anything he was more at fault for the original COH mess since he basically refused to admit he was wrong. The borked regen tests using numbers not matching the live servers was proof positive of his abilities.

Plus, it is being developed for consoles. Do you really want to be playing with those kind of people in a team based environment?

Quote from: Verfall on February 22, 2008, 08:28:53 AM
Plus, it is being developed for consoles. Do you really want to be playing with those kind of people in a team based environment?

You have a certain point there...

But if the system works the way it ought to work, there should be no real need to team unless you want to.  Hence, you pick who you want to run with rather than being forced to find a PUG because that's the only way to level effectively.

The tricky part is whether these guys can deliver on a system that works the way it ought to work.  That's a fair question.

What interests me is how close they are going to get to HERO system type customization.

Quote from: Verfall on February 22, 2008, 08:28:53 AMPlus, it is being developed for consoles. Do you really want to be playing with those kind of people in a team based environment?

:blink:
Those Kind of People? Are you saying PC players are better than console players?
I played Halo 1 & 2 online and did not see any additional instances of 1337ness/immaturity than what I did playing on multiplayer games on PC.  My Halo teams usually knew how to work together to solve the threats facing us.  On a PC, not so much.  PuGs are one of the worst experiences I ever had on any of the MMOs I've tried.  Even simple multiplayer PvP games like Half-Life were filled to the brim with jerks.  Maybe I was lucky with Halo, but I don't think being able to play with new folks is a bad thing.  Besides, they indicated they would not be forcing groups with CO.  If that allows me to fully enjoy my game without having to beg for a team, then all the better.

Quote from: Pyroclasm on February 22, 2008, 09:44:59 AM

Quote from: Verfall on February 22, 2008, 08:28:53 AMPlus, it is being developed for consoles. Do you really want to be playing with those kind of people in a team based environment?

:blink:
Those Kind of People? Are you saying PC players are better than console players?
I played Halo 1 & 2 online and did not see any additional instances of 1337ness/immaturity than what I did playing on multiplayer games on PC.  My Halo teams usually knew how to work together to solve the threats facing us.  On a PC, not so much.  PuGs are one of the worst experiences I ever had on any of the MMOs I've tried.  Even simple multiplayer PvP games like Half-Life were filled to the brim with jerks.  Maybe I was lucky with Halo, but I don't think being able to play with new folks is a bad thing.  Besides, they indicated they would not be forcing groups with CO.  If that allows me to fully enjoy my game without having to beg for a team, then all the better.

You played Halo online and didn't run into any "consoletards"? Console-only gamers are notorious for being idiots, which can usually be attributed to mommy and daddy not letting lil' Jimmy play on the computer, but giving them free reign to torture the English language over a headset.

As well, how dumb downed is the gameplay going to be so it functions smoothly on a console? COH is already pretty mind numbingly simple, any easier and you may as well just play MUA. From what I'm seeing, this is going to be MUA with flashier graphics, customization, a different universe and a 15 dollar a month price tag.

But I'll be frank, I was wrong about ED, I was wrong about IO's and I may very well be wrong about this game. But Jack has shown, while being pretty good at the story details, he sucks jimmies at actually putting said ideas to use in a MMO environment after the initial game is out there. The fact so few people ditched after the GDN and ED nerfs was basically because they were the only fish in the pond. Cryptic can't pull the same thing twice and keep their subscribers, not with COH and the inevitable sequel on the horizon, as well as the DC game if it gets released.

Simpler controls isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm always having to remember which key I used to bind a certain power, etc.

Still, I'd want to either play a beta or get testimonials before I'd want to pay for it.

I just can't get past the MMO pay-to-play after I've already payed money just to get the game. At least make the gosh darn software free if you charge to play.

You know, Ver, that's the reason I always play MMOs solo. Jerky, arrogant players with no sense of grammar and unable to having even simple discourse. In fact, I think I've met about two or three people in total who I could actually play those sorts of games with, excluding people I already knew.

Quote from: UnkoMan on February 22, 2008, 01:48:32 PM
You know, Ver, that's the reason I always play MMOs solo. Jerky, arrogant players with no sense of grammar and unable to having even simple discourse. In fact, I think I've met about two or three people in total who I could actually play those sorts of games with, excluding people I already knew.

Most of my active builds are soloable.  When I do team up its with people from the FR and NRF channel.  And should I team with a PUG, I try to keep an eye open for the exit when the team Leroy Jenkins(es) rears his head.

Verfall, I wasn't saying that I hadn't run into bad Halo players, only that I did not find they were any more jerky than PC players.  That said, I think that you can just as easily run into great console gamers as you can with PC gamers as the membership of this particular site can attest to.  As for the teaming, maybe it IS the simpler controls, but my teammates just seemed to know what to do in a team setting.  The only time I ever felt comfortable playing in a group on PC has been when I knew everyone, whether in RL or because of being guildmates.

All I have to say is that it has been my experience that there are just as many jerks and idiots playing PC games as consoles anymore, heck anymore it might even be the same idiot a lot of the times.

Anyways, it looks nice and pretty so far. Honestly I think a console centric control scheme is actually for the best. The traditional MMO gameplay just doesn't fit the superhero genre perfectly, there is a certain level of distance inherent in the system that most people just look past after a while. A more full in control no delay control scheme sounds much more heroic honestly. This might end up playing more like an action game ala Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden but with power usage ala Marvel Ultimate Alliance.

I am curious to see if there will be any destruction of environments or being able to pick anything or anyone up.

Gameplay Trailer up! (http://www.champions-online.com/trailer)

I just wanna know, can it honestly claim it's the first action MMORPG when the japanese/koreans have been doing the same thing for free for several years now? Maybe the first superhero action mmorpg. Nitpicks aside, the gameplay trailer looks interesting.

I kept pausing the trailer when it showed the created characters (at least I think that is what they were) so I could see them better, heh. I saw a hunched over animalistic pose (JOY), a cockroach head, snake skin and some viking looking fellow.

Bah... screenshot power!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/GrizzlyBearTalon/Champions/ChampionsCreatedToonsBatch01.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/GrizzlyBearTalon/Champions/ChampionsCreatedToonsBatch02.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/GrizzlyBearTalon/Champions/ChampionsCreatedToonsBatch03.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/GrizzlyBearTalon/Champions/ChampionsCreatedToonsBatch04.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/GrizzlyBearTalon/Champions/ChampionsCreatedToonsBatch05.jpg)

Quote from: Lionheart on February 21, 2008, 12:51:59 PM

Quote from: captainspud on February 21, 2008, 06:49:46 AM
My #1 wish for this is for them to scrap the "fight legions and legions of faceless drones" gameplay of CoH. I'm a superhero, I don't want to fight goons with guns. I want to fight villains-- one on one. I want a knock-down fight that takes five to ten minutes to resolve.

Having some gang-based factions is fine, but it really tears the thematics away when all you're fighting are goons, and you need backup to take on even the smallest name-brand villains.

You just identified my biggest pet peeve with CoH. I want to fight costumed villains! And not just in task forces. It's really annoying when you get to the big, bad gang leader, he looks just like all the other gang members, just with more power.

Also, the fact that when you enter a mission (having played for a while), that it only takes a few minutes before you know the layout of the entire base -- because you've been in a bazillion bases with exactly the same layout already.

That's where I like the open world layout of LOTRO better; every zone, every location is unique.

The strength to the CoH method is that you can instance the missions and make them scalable to group size. Scalable missions are great. Now if someone could just figure out how to incorporate scalable missions to a more open world environment.

Being able to create your own archvillain is an awesome concept for storyline players. With my own pen-and-paper games, I love creating backstories that include arch-enemies.  :)

Thats one of the reasons I could never get into coh or any other mmo.  Felt like an endless beatem up w/o the beatem up gameplay.  If they change that I might reconsider.

Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on February 22, 2008, 04:09:20 PM
All I have to say is that it has been my experience that there are just as many jerks and idiots playing PC games as consoles anymore, heck anymore it might even be the same idiot a lot of the times.

Anyways, it looks nice and pretty so far. Honestly I think a console centric control scheme is actually for the best. The traditional MMO gameplay just doesn't fit the superhero genre perfectly, there is a certain level of distance inherent in the system that most people just look past after a while. A more full in control no delay control scheme sounds much more heroic honestly. This might end up playing more like an action game ala Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden but with power usage ala Marvel Ultimate Alliance.

I am curious to see if there will be any destruction of environments or being able to pick anything or anyone up.

Now if that happened I dont think Id ever stop playing.  Hell if they could somehow merge that gameplay with a game as open ended as our own freedom force, Id never buy another game again :thumbup: But by looking at the forum posts, that may be too "twitchy" for most.  Probably tech issues to boot. 

Looks like Podmark in the bottom right picture  :D

i like these cell shaded graphics!  this time when we see clashing costumes from fashion-blind players it won't look so hideous!

I'm surprised how many Korean MMo's there are,  but seriously, kids only play four different ones it seems... Starcraft, Maple Story, Hellgate, and Lineage. and they play them ALL the time,  you should see their faces light up when i tell them Maple Story is coming to DS.

Quote from: captainspud on February 21, 2008, 06:49:46 AM
My #1 wish for this is for them to scrap the "fight legions and legions of faceless drones" gameplay of CoH. I'm a superhero, I don't want to fight goons with guns. I want to fight villains-- one on one. I want a knock-down fight that takes five to ten minutes to resolve.

Having some gang-based factions is fine, but it really tears the thematics away when all you're fighting are goons, and you need backup to take on even the smallest name-brand villains.

They may have corrected this since I got out, but I left CoH because I got tired of a mission tree that seemed to consist entirely of "Beat up 5 of [insert group]; OK now rescue 5 hostages; OK now defuse 5 bombs; OK now rescue 5 hostages TIED to 5 bombs; ok now Beat up 10 of [insert group]", etc..etc...

Story, darnit! I want STORY!  And if CO can deliver story, I'll at least give it a try (provided they do the gameplay card thing- I'm not giving anyone permission to stick something on my Visa month after month). 

Actually, that's a good question - anyone see if they'll be gameplay cards for this?

First thing that jumps out at me from the trailer: No capes???

Quote from: JKCarrier on February 23, 2008, 08:05:37 AM
First thing that jumps out at me from the trailer: No capes???

I'll be damned.  You're right.  LOL

Some other interesting news.  Teams will be maxed out at 5.

It appears there will be classes.  Sure you can pick any powers you want... but having certain classes and powers together offers an advantage.

RTT

I don't mind their version of "classes" as it sounds closer to the archetype system of Marvel Superheroes or Heroes Unlimited.  Pick an archetype for bonuses and flavor, not for an ability tree. 

/me is intrigued

Best scans I could come up with. Enjoy.

(http://unlimited2.net/images/t1.jpg) (http://unlimited2.net/images/1.jpg)(http://unlimited2.net/images/t2.jpg) (http://unlimited2.net/images/2.jpg)(http://unlimited2.net/images/t3.jpg) (http://unlimited2.net/images/3.jpg)(http://unlimited2.net/images/t4.jpg) (http://unlimited2.net/images/4.jpg)

[Mod] Fixed the links. [/Mod]

More information (http://www.massively.com/2008/02/22/champions-online-and-cryptic-studios-information-bonanza/) on the game.

With as many people that we have in FR and its misc groups, would some more of you go sign up for the Champions Forum, Once there post in the FR superteam thread and also in the beta thread if you were also a beta player in COX (CoHaV). Posting in it if you were a COX beta player (CoHaV) might get you a email to get into the Champions beta.

Quote from: DMenacer on February 24, 2008, 04:27:16 PM
With as many people that we have in FR and its misc groups, would some more of you go sign up for the Champions Forum, Once there post in the FR superteam thread and also in the beta thread if you were also a beta player in COX (CoHaV). Posting in it if you were a COX beta player (CoHaV) might get you a email to get into the Champions beta.

Which Beta thread?  I see a couple... and nothing official.

RTT

Niftiriffic!

All I want is to have a power customization tool similar to FF in an MMO.

And a bunch of other good stuff.

Quote from: RTTingle on February 24, 2008, 05:49:41 PM

Quote from: DMenacer on February 24, 2008, 04:27:16 PM
With as many people that we have in FR and its misc groups, would some more of you go sign up for the Champions Forum, Once there post in the FR superteam thread and also in the beta thread if you were also a beta player in COX (CoHaV). Posting in it if you were a COX beta player (CoHaV) might get you a email to get into the Champions beta.

Which Beta thread?  I see a couple... and nothing official.

RTT

The only official quote about beta stated that when it does start they would shout it out so hard from the rooftops and make such a ruckus about it that you wouldn't possibly miss when it starts.

Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on February 24, 2008, 11:04:38 PM

Quote from: RTTingle on February 24, 2008, 05:49:41 PM

Quote from: DMenacer on February 24, 2008, 04:27:16 PM
With as many people that we have in FR and its misc groups, would some more of you go sign up for the Champions Forum, Once there post in the FR superteam thread and also in the beta thread if you were also a beta player in COX (CoHaV). Posting in it if you were a COX beta player (CoHaV) might get you a email to get into the Champions beta.

Which Beta thread?  I see a couple... and nothing official.

RTT

The only official quote about beta stated that when it does start they would shout it out so hard from the rooftops and make such a ruckus about it that you wouldn't possibly miss when it starts.

Yeah, thats what I thought.

Anyways.  Anxious for the game.  Willing to give it a spin, but I've got this to say...

I'm not at all interested in the cut scenes, animated faces or the seperate fingers.  Thats like the cherry on top a sundae.  Its nice, but it doesn't make or break it for me.  I'm hoping for some great depth in the customization of the character and powers.  It needs to blow me away and do a lot more for me at launch.  What I'm hearing is nice, but it looks like at launch --- it's not really going to be much different than COH was.  I spent three years on COH and still don't quite have what I'm looking for.  No way in hell am I going to spend 3 years playing on another game waiting for it as well.

RTT

Ohh check out the screenshot of the flaming robot baddie..... Those particle flames look totally WICKED

I wonder how many characters will be allowed per account?  And if there will be copyright protection for licensed DC and Marvel characters?  Actually.. that's probably a given.

Yeah, the characters look really fantastic. Might be weird, but heavy character customization is a big part of whether or not I like a game (no wonder I've stuck with FF so long). Rock Band? I spend tons of time making my character look just so. Wrestling games? Hardly play them, but I make a ton of guys. So on and so forth. And if they look good, even better... The characters in the trailer looked fantastic. I can't wait to see what I can come up with in this game.

But, though I am excited about that sort of thing, I hope the game will be something more. Frankly, I've done CoH for short periods, and always felt it had the gameplay all wrong. It's a multiplayer super hero game. Clicking and waiting for powers to work seems wrong to me. Not frentic enough. That's why I hope this does play a bit more like MUA, as speculated. Just liven it up. Chalk full of quick decision making, and fast paced action, but it also allows for puzzle solving and stealth, and hopefully other ways to complete missions.

I'd like to see some kind of team combo design implemented.  Player 1 fires off Power C, Player 2 fires off Power A and Player 3 fires off Power E and then KABOOM!! big explosion type thing.

I do hope it's not too terribly difficult for us middle-aged, all-thumbs guys to master.  If it plays too much like an FPS, I doubt I'd have much fun.

"Sorry, you just couldn't mash that button fast enough to beat the bad guy."

Quote from: BlueBard on February 27, 2008, 12:06:17 PM
I do hope it's not too terribly difficult for us middle-aged, all-thumbs guys to master.  If it plays too much like an FPS, I doubt I'd have much fun.

"Sorry, you just couldn't mash that button fast enough to beat the bad guy."

It can't be too complicated.  If you look at the info Middy posted as pics above one blurb says the UI, thought not shown in the screenshots, has been optimized for consol users.

Aaaand that leads me to my grip.  How good can some of the systems be if this game is a consol AND PC game?  Obviously consol graphics have come quite far and thats not the issue.  But what about the UI and chat?  It worries me.

Don't get me wrong tho, i think this is big.  Ive been itchin' for something new and just not sure where to satify my itch.  CoH was a great experience...hey it brought me to all you wierdos....but it is definetly time for something new for the community (ie not just LOTR or WoW for the fantasy freaks and TR for the sci-fi nerds).

I was initinally upset with the news of the Marvel MMO being cancelled but after reading the new Game Informer i am now even more excited than ever - This game seems to give me the little things that i kept wishing would happen with new Issues of CoH/V - I still have alot of Ideas that i know will never happen like Giant chars, flying into outer space straight from the planet surface, aquatic powers, shrinking powers to a sub atomic world, Throwing moves etc...  I know the artical says a moon mission but i'm sure it's just jump threw a portal and bame your on the moon kinda thing - The ability to make a Nemisis is downright cool & i can honestly say i wouldn't have thought of that - As for being on the 360 which is the way i will play it sounds great - I can't wait to talk smack to every dumbazz I run into that has a Villainous looking Hero (I hate that) - Now that I know this is really going to happen i'm kinda thinking about taking a break from my addiction to CoH unless NCSoft can come up with an issue that's worth a crap - That wedding junk they pulled last month was about the lamest thing i have ever seen in the 3 awesome years of playing the game - Anyway i scanned all 5 pages from the Game Informer for those of you who just want to see everything Champions - It doesn't really have anything diff from the web site thow :blink:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/hulkgray/hulkgray2/champ1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/hulkgray/hulkgray2/champ2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/hulkgray/hulkgray2/champ3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/hulkgray/hulkgray2/champ4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/hulkgray/hulkgray2/champ5.jpg

Quote from: Camma on February 27, 2008, 01:13:15 PMAaaand that leads me to my grip.  How good can some of the systems be if this game is a consol AND PC game?  Obviously consol graphics have come quite far and thats not the issue.  But what about the UI and chat?  It worries me.

Probably going to have built in voice chat.

Quote from: Midnight on February 28, 2008, 08:50:46 AM

Quote from: Camma on February 27, 2008, 01:13:15 PMAaaand that leads me to my grip.  How good can some of the systems be if this game is a consol AND PC game?  Obviously consol graphics have come quite far and thats not the issue.  But what about the UI and chat?  It worries me.

Probably going to have built in voice chat.

let's also not forget that most consoles have keyboards, so, they may go with some prearranged responses, regular chat, and built in voice chat. But, I expect everything to be simplified when compared to CoH...though, if they want to stay semi complex, then it can still be done. I mean, FFXI has a pretty complex GUI and it spans across three systems (PC, Xbox 360, and ps2) and it seems to be doing well.

Thats good to hear, i never knew FFXI was cross platform, i thought i was mutually exclusive servers.

Well as i read more and more about features CO is looking tastier and tastier

*runs to cancel his LOTR account*

Yes i only allow myself two MMO atta time, but then i dont count the Pirates of the Carribean Online free trial since that was a short 7 day trial run.

I just read through the Lead Desinger Interview (http://www.champions-online.com/node/32) and I hope that stuff he mentions towards the end is for real and not just him running off at the mouth. I saw some lizard beasts in a screenshot so hopefully what he is talking about really happens in the game.  In case you are wondering he mentions a moonbase & monster island.  Man I really wanna punch a dinosaur so bad... :gbthungry

Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on February 28, 2008, 06:30:57 PMMan I really wanna punch a dinosaur so bad... :gbthungry

Um... okay...

*Quickly hides his pet dinosaur from Grizz*

Another interesting thing is the ability to have a charater run on all fours.  I wonder if it will be a permanent choice in character creation or if they are actually putting in the time to animate both on-all-fours models and upright models such that you would be able to transition.  That would be a lot of work but definetly leave the ability to have a much widered array of animations for both PCs and mobs.

Quote from: Camma on February 29, 2008, 08:10:10 AM
Another interesting thing is the ability to have a charater run on all fours.  I wonder if it will be a permanent choice in character creation or if they are actually putting in the time to animate both on-all-fours models and upright models such that you would be able to transition.  That would be a lot of work but definetly leave the ability to have a much widered array of animations for both PCs and mobs.

You can see this in action "sort of" in a screenshot appearing in the article in Game Informer. It has a close up of Dr. Destroyer and in the background is a white werewolf and a couple of werebears. At least they look like werebears to me. Please oh please let players be able to use those parts.

My guess is they have a set of animations that can be adjusted to varying model sizes and types, kind of like in modern wrestling games such as Smackdown vs Raw 08. I'm not really sure how it works but every model no matter the size or whatever you tack on to it is able to use all of the animations. Would you even need seperate models for on fours vs upright? Or simply different animations as they have also suggested other movement options like floating above the ground.

Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on February 28, 2008, 06:30:57 PM
I just read through the Lead Desinger Interview (http://www.champions-online.com/node/32) and I hope that stuff he mentions towards the end is for real and not just him running off at the mouth. I saw some lizard beasts in a screenshot so hopefully what he is talking about really happens in the game.  In case you are wondering he mentions a moonbase & monster island.  Man I really wanna punch a dinosaur so bad... :gbthungry

Holy crap, he grew up here. Hell, he went to the same Uni as me. Ok, I'll shamefully admit this might just turn the tide on me playing this. Knowing a guy from this backwater province is doing something I'd love to do can only mean I'll probably enjoy the game. If only I could get past knowing Jack has his dirty little hands on the thing, heh.

Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on February 29, 2008, 09:40:54 AM
Would you even need seperate models for on fours vs upright? Or simply different animations as they have also suggested other movement options like floating above the ground.

Well, you can basically do this in FF. Make a mesh based on male basic and it uses any male basic keyframes. In wrestling games it's the same thing, except the parts are all scalable. But it's not like somebody has any vastly different parts like wiggly tentacle arms. They all move the same.

I suppose they will just follow this sort of thing. Make the keyframes for the specific model types (say female/male/huge like CoX) and then be able to swap them around. Pretty easy.

A bit of news from the Champions Online gang yesterday.

This is really starting to worry and concern me.  It seems CO is really sticking it out there... and making it obvious --- this is the way things should be on CoX.  If they actually deliver... wow.

With a limited crew, limited capabilities of the program and code itself, I'm starting to think CoX has no way to counteract this.  I wonder if CoX really has anything left?  They even teased a shields powerset coming and well, I was underwhelmed.

Any matters... here is CO showing something again, that everyone has been wanting in CoX.  I suggest checking it out yourself (http://www.champions-online.com/node/33), there is concept art up as well.

QuoteStronghold

My trial was a joke. The judge, the jury, my idiot lawyers? They're dead men – they just don't know it yet. When I get out of here, what I've got planned will make that spree in Millennium City look like a preschooler play date.

I started planning my escape the second they handed my sentence down. But then the guards slapped those inhibitor cuffs on me. They say it's just an energy field, but I can feel it hanging on me. It presses down on my shoulders and smothers the power in me like dirt kicked on a campfire.

Getting my powers sucked away messed with my head, and before I could react, I was in the transport and on my way to Stronghold.

If you get caught and lose it all like I did, savor those last seconds of freedom. Smell the fresh air as long as you can. Drink in every bit of the desert view. Get a picture of that painted sky in your mind and lock it in. And take a long, last look at the sun.

Because if you're going to Stronghold, you're going down in the ground. You're not going to see the sun for a long, long time.
— Red Jack McCall

By the mid-1970s, supervillain crime was taking a vast toll on the American economy. Supervillians were stealing billions of dollars in cash and property each year, and destroying billions more. One reason was that it was difficult to keep superpowered villains incarcerated – catch a few, and it would be only a matter of time before they busted out of prison or were freed by their cohorts.

In 1976, noted penologist Dr. Charles Wildman proposed Stronghold – a super prison designed to hold supervillains.

Stronghold would be buried deep in an isolated New Mexico mesa. Its massive stone walls would be strong enough to withstand superpowers, but more importantly, the super-technology within the prison would block superhuman abilities and be capable of containing even the worst threats.

Soon all the states were sending their superpowered convicts to Stronghold, and with its power inhibitor technology, breakouts became a thing of the past. Supervillains were caught, convicted and served their sentences. The public was safe.

As the 1990s dawned, Stronghold suffered the worst disaster in its history. After a freak thunderstorm knocked out a portion of the prison's power grid, the prison descended into chaos. A group of inmates led by Blackstar of the Ultimates made a break for the surface, freeing as many villains as they could along the way. By daybreak, more than 40 hardened supervillains were on the loose.

Wildman was forced to resign in disgrace, and a new, tougher warden was brought in to rebuild the facility. Peter Kennedy ran Stronghold with an iron hand, and soon gathered many enemies amongst the prisoners and staff.

In 2001, a disgruntled guard released the monstrous Grond from his hot sleep coffin. The giant irradiated supervillain smashed his way out of Stronghold, killing multiple guards in the process. After an investigation into the incident, Warden Kennedy was removed from his post by the Bureau of Prisons.

To get Stronghold back on track, the government turned to a familiar name: Wildman. Arthur Wildman, son of Stronghold's founder and a noted academic and prison administrator, is now in charge of the facility. Arthur Wildman has revised security procedures, lobbied for technology upgrades and revamped the psychological evaluation that all employees must undergo before being hired. Whether that will be enough to keep Stronghold secure remains to be seen.
About Stronghold

The prison itself is buried deep within the rock of the Devil's Head Mesa. Its isolated location was picked so that the public would be protected by distance as well as stone and steel.

On top of the mesa are living quarters for employees, support facilities and a hangar for the prison's vehicles. Prisoners are kept below ground, with the most dangerous inmates in the lower levels. Underneath tons of rock is the "hot sleep" chamber, where the most powerful supervillains are kept in a form of coma for the length of their sentences.

Currently, the most fearsome supervillain in Stronghold is Menton, a powerful mentalist capable of commanding legions of mind-controlled followers.
New Neighbors

Recently, there is a surprising amount of activity in the windswept desert surrounding Stronghold.

There has been increased activity at Area 51, and strange beings have been reported in the area. PRIMUS has established a base in Uranium Flats for Project Greenskin, a team dedicated to the capture of the renegade supervillain Grond and studying the effects decades of nuclear testing have had on the area.

There's a new owner at the nearby Snake Gulch dude ranch, and whoever it is has been moving in some unusual equipment for a would-be tourist trap. And people have reported restless spirits in the abandoned community of Burnside. Is the old ghost town living up to its name?

RTT

Quote from: Tortuga on February 26, 2008, 06:19:35 PM
I'd like to see some kind of team combo design implemented.  Player 1 fires off Power C, Player 2 fires off Power A and Player 3 fires off Power E and then KABOOM!! big explosion type thing.

The Champions PnP game had the 'Fastball Special" combat maneuver...

Okay, well...I've played Champions in one form or another since 1988...this looks really cool, and appears that it will address some long standing gripes I've had with CoH...I've run out of friends who have any interest in talking superheroes with me...and I really miss you guys...so...

...where do I sign? 

:)

I just hope it doesn't have the HUGE GAPING HOLES in the system that P&P Champions had that let the munchkins in the local area use it to prove their "Munchkin Rank" - just how badly COULD you break the system, and so on.

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 04, 2008, 01:00:35 PM
Okay, well...I've played Champions in one form or another since 1988...this looks really cool, and appears that it will address some long standing gripes I've had with CoH...I've run out of friends who have any interest in talking superheroes with me...and I really miss you guys...so...

...where do I sign? 

:)

:blink:

WOW!

Where have YOU been?

RTT

Quote from: Valandar on March 04, 2008, 05:28:55 PM
I just hope it doesn't have the HUGE GAPING HOLES in the system that P&P Champions had that let the munchkins in the local area use it to prove their "Munchkin Rank" - just how badly COULD you break the system, and so on.

It doesn't use the HERO system. It borrows the basic game philosophy and the thematics, but the actual game mechanics are new.

I know.

But it mentions having a "points based system", and if those things aren't rigidly controlled... ouch.

BTW, I still have my copy of "The Island of Doctor Destroyer" module...

Quote from: RTTingle on March 04, 2008, 05:45:12 PM

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 04, 2008, 01:00:35 PM
Okay, well...I've played Champions in one form or another since 1988...this looks really cool, and appears that it will address some long standing gripes I've had with CoH...I've run out of friends who have any interest in talking superheroes with me...and I really miss you guys...so...

...where do I sign? 

:)

:blink:

WOW!

Where have YOU been?

RTT

hehehe...my adventures have been long and not very much fun at all.  Suffice it to say that I think they are over, and part of getting things back to normal for me is reconnecting with you guys.  This whole Champions thing seemed a good opportunity to do that...so...you're stuck with me again!   :thumbup:

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 05, 2008, 06:48:29 AM

Quote from: RTTingle on March 04, 2008, 05:45:12 PM

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 04, 2008, 01:00:35 PM
Okay, well...I've played Champions in one form or another since 1988...this looks really cool, and appears that it will address some long standing gripes I've had with CoH...I've run out of friends who have any interest in talking superheroes with me...and I really miss you guys...so...

...where do I sign? 

:)

:blink:

WOW!

Where have YOU been?

RTT

hehehe...my adventures have been long and not very much fun at all.  Suffice it to say that I think they are over, and part of getting things back to normal for me is reconnecting with you guys.  This whole Champions thing seemed a good opportunity to do that...so...you're stuck with me again!   :thumbup:

WOW! Welcome back, Lightning Bug! :cool:

I don't think I've seen you on here since sometime in 2004..

Quote from: Figure Fan on March 06, 2008, 10:35:22 AM

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 05, 2008, 06:48:29 AM

Quote from: RTTingle on March 04, 2008, 05:45:12 PM

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 04, 2008, 01:00:35 PM
Okay, well...I've played Champions in one form or another since 1988...this looks really cool, and appears that it will address some long standing gripes I've had with CoH...I've run out of friends who have any interest in talking superheroes with me...and I really miss you guys...so...

...where do I sign? 

:)

:blink:

WOW!

Where have YOU been?

RTT

hehehe...my adventures have been long and not very much fun at all.  Suffice it to say that I think they are over, and part of getting things back to normal for me is reconnecting with you guys.  This whole Champions thing seemed a good opportunity to do that...so...you're stuck with me again!   :thumbup:

WOW! Welcome back, Lightning Bug! :cool:

I don't think I've seen you on here since sometime in 2004..

Yeah, I haven't really skinned or anything since about then...I posted until summer of '05, but not very much.  The first half of '05 was REALLY busy for me.  But, hopefully things will calm down for me, now.  *crosses fingers* 

Good to see you, FF  :)

Welcome back, Lightning Bug!  Things were never the same without you.

At any rate, I will allow myself to be cautiously optimistic about Champions Online from the snippets that I have heard.

Quote from: Viking on March 07, 2008, 07:09:51 AM
Welcome back, Lightning Bug!  Things were never the same without you.

At any rate, I will allow myself to be cautiously optimistic about Champions Online from the snippets that I have heard.

Thanks Viking :)  It's good to see you too!

As a long-time Champions player, I'm both really excited and reasonably skeptical about CO.  My reservations stem mostly from the fact that Cryptic is making it, and a lot of their design decisions on CoX I find very questionable.  I won't list them all here...but I will remain, like Viking, cautiously optimistic until I see them directly addressed by a Dev, or I experience (or don't) in beta/release. 

Gotta say, I'm with Viking...

... My overall enjoyment of COH dropped when you disappeared.  At that point I was in it just to finish.  Shame you missed the black tie party when EC hit 50.  :(  Damn it, wish I had screen caps.  It was small, but fun.

Lemmie know if you ever sign back into COH for any time, I'll re-up my account as soon as you do.

RTT

They have had 10,000 people sign up at their forum in their first 10 days, Do you know how early you joined the forum?. Its easy to find out, just check the properties of your Avatar for something like this.

http://forums.champions-online.com/image.php?u=1876&dateline=1203711271

The u=1876 shows me that I was the 1,876 person to sign up at the Champions forum.

Quote from: DMenacer on March 08, 2008, 05:55:38 PM
They have had 10,000 people sign up at their forum in their first 10 days, Do you know how early you joined the forum?. Its easy to find out, just check the properties of your Avatar for something like this.

http://forums.champions-online.com/image.php?u=1876&dateline=1203711271

The u=1876 shows me that I was the 1,876 person to sign up at the Champions forum.

#135.

RTT

4404. I don't take too kindly to other numbers...

So, do you gusy think they will change Champions/Hero System to relfect the changes in the computer game?  Will the computer game match the rpg?  I can't see how the MMORPG will be anything like Hero System, but who knows?

Quote from: Xenolith on March 09, 2008, 03:25:46 PM
So, do you gusy think they will change Champions/Hero System to relfect the changes in the computer game?  Will the computer game match the rpg?  I can't see how the MMORPG will be anything like Hero System, but who knows?

Again, the Hero system is not being directly used AT ALL. They're borrowing some of the basic ideas of points-based power purchases, and some of the specific powers, but otherwise it's thematics-only.

Quote from: Xenolith on March 09, 2008, 03:25:46 PM
So, do you gusy think they will change Champions/Hero System to relfect the changes in the computer game?  Will the computer game match the rpg?  I can't see how the MMORPG will be anything like Hero System, but who knows?

The only thing Cryptic is using is the IP. ie the storylines, locations, characters, etc.  They do not own the Hero system, nor did they license the Hero system.  It is not the PnP game translated to CRPG.  It is Champions in "flavor" only.

The one thing I liked the most about Champions was how the mechanics were completely separate from the "flavor". You only had to worry about Physical, Energy, or Mental unless a specific weakness was involved, and while two people might both have 12d6 Energy blasts, one guy might shoot green beams of hard radiation that went "FWOOM!", while the other guy shot bolts of coherent magic plasma that went "Shrak!". They'd look and sound different and the Rad guy might affect Count Von Radium more than magic guy, and magic guy might affect the Cobalt Kid more than Rad guy, both were the same against a majority of villains. You defined yourself by flavor and roleplay more thn numbers.

Quote from: RTTingle on March 08, 2008, 08:12:59 AM
Gotta say, I'm with Viking...

... My overall enjoyment of COH dropped when you disappeared.  At that point I was in it just to finish.  Shame you missed the black tie party when EC hit 50.  :(  Damn it, wish I had screen caps.  It was small, but fun.

Lemmie know if you ever sign back into COH for any time, I'll re-up my account as soon as you do.

RTT

That's really nice of you to say, RT :)  I wish I could have been there for you 50 celebration, too!  We spent so much time trying to keep you alive and out of experience debt so you could make it...lol...I still remember when we had you sidekicked and had managed to keep from dying all the way through the mission only to have you bite it at the hands of an exploding barrel.   :P

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 10, 2008, 11:50:00 AM
That's really nice of you to say, RT :)  I wish I could have been there for you 50 celebration, too!  We spent so much time trying to keep you alive and out of experience debt so you could make it...lol...I still remember when we had you sidekicked and had managed to keep from dying all the way through the mission only to have you bite it at the hands of an exploding barrel.   :P

One day, we'll find the secret headquarters of those nefarious Exploding Barrels, and give them what for!

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 10, 2008, 11:50:00 AM...only to have you bite it at the hands of an exploding barrel.   :P

I got one shotted by a barrel.  That was pretty embarrassing.

I guess it makes up for the flapjacking I did to that one Devoured Earth.

RTT

Quote from: RTTingle on March 10, 2008, 07:44:15 PM

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 10, 2008, 11:50:00 AM...only to have you bite it at the hands of an exploding barrel.   :P

I got one shotted by a barrel.  That was pretty embarrassing.

I guess it makes up for the flapjacking I did to that one Devoured Earth.

RTT

HAHAHAHAHHA...that was hilarious!  Waiting 10 minutes while you put down 734 mines was totally worth it to see that poor guy flop around for 20 seconds before dying.   :lol:

I think that Devouring Earth later reported Emerald Cloak for griefing, which resulted in the subtle "barrel one-shot."  Karma is funny that way.

Getting back on topic...

... I do like the graphics on the screenies I've seen... but why did they redesign Defender and Dr Destroyer so totally?

Quote from: Valandar on March 11, 2008, 10:45:48 AM
Getting back on topic...

... I do like the graphics on the screenies I've seen... but why did they redesign Defender and Dr Destroyer so totally?

I suspect that somewhere around CO's release we'll see a 6th edition of HERO Games/Champions hit the shelves, sporting redesigned characters that match the way they're depicted in the online game.  You can see shades of it coming when you go to www.herogames.com which proudly displays the new Defender every chance it gets. 

Quote from: HEROGamesQ: What's the relationship between the Champions Online MMO and the Champions roleplaying game?

A: In late 2007 Cryptic Studios was looking for a comic book-style setting for its next massive multiplayer online roleplaying game. Several of Cryptic's designers and administrators are long-time Champions fans, so naturally they thought of using the Champions Universe. They opened up negotiations with us, and the end result of those negotiations was that Cryptic bought the Champions and Dark Champions intellectual property from us. They didn't buy the HERO System rules, just the Champions and Dark Champions IP (the characters, places, events, and so on). Under the terms of our agreement they license back to DOJ the right to produce roleplaying game books for Champions and Dark Champions.

The Champions Online MMO is going to be based on the Champions Universe setting and characters, so it will contain a lot of people and places that Champions fans know and love - Dr. Destroyer, Millennium City, Mechanon, VIPER, Vibora Bay, and so on. However, characters and organizations in the game may not be exactly like they are in published Champions books. The needs of an MMO and of a paper-and-pencil roleplaying game aren't always the same, and as the owners of the Champions Universe IP Cryptic Studios can change things around however it sees fit. However, we're working closely with them, and they're always interested in our ideas. So it's safe to say that Champions fans will instantly recognize a lot of what's in the MMO, and that reading our Champions books will give you some insight on the content of the MMO. Going forward we'll work with Cryptic so that new Champions books we publish "match up with" the MMO as much as possible, both graphically and in terms of content.

Another thing to remember is that the Champions Online MMO is not a "HERO System MMO." It doesn't use the HERO System rules, and the full rights to those rules are still owned by DOJ, Inc. Players of the MMO won't be able to use the HERO System rules to design their characters, for example. But once the MMO is available we'll publish a book that shows how to build Champions Online powers and abilities in HERO System terms so you can easily re-create your MMO character for your tabletop RPG game if you want.

Yeah, I always thought that was pretty hardcore that they bought the IP outright and licensed the rights to publish RPG material back to DOJ, Inc.  I wonder if we'll see a Cryptic logo on any of the new Champions books?

I am sort of psyched to hear some beta reviews of the Champions Online game. I played the paper-and-pencil game as a kid and I liked the Champions world, though I'll admit our little group only had a couple of the campaign modules. We mostly played in our own world, which was an amalgam of some comics and our own stuff. To me, the game was largely the HERO system for character creation and the rest was our imaginations. (Honestly, the point system for character creation was part of the initial appeal of Freedom Force.) But, if the online game can capture the feel of the p-n-p version, I would like to see more of it. I'd be nervous about the console aspect of it in terms of customization and game play, but I'm not a console gamer, so who knows?

As it is, I have never played CoX, though it is tempting. From what I have read, the lack of power customization would bug me. And, I have had the impression that it's basically mandatory to team to advance at a reasonable pace or to play some of the character types that are more interesting to me. I'm still tempted to give it a shot when I upgrade my PC...

BTW, welcome back, Lightning Bug! You probably don't remember me, but one of the very first things I read when I came to FR was a review you wrote of the CoH beta. That's where I learned what a 'tank mage' was. :)

Quote from: stumpy on March 12, 2008, 11:32:43 AM
BTW, welcome back, Lightning Bug! You probably don't remember me, but one of the very first things I read when I came to FR was a review you wrote of the CoH beta. That's where I learned what a 'tank mage' was. :)

Of course I remember you, stumpy. :)  Man, I forgot all about that review. hehehehe...glad you liked it. Thanks for the "welcome back," too. Hopefully I'll be able to stick around for awhile. 

On a Champions-related note...I stumbled across a site ( www.wowio.com ) where you can download free books and comics.  It's totally legit and paid for by having a few pages of adds inserted into the .pdf.  Anyway, they have the entire run of the Champions comic by HERO Game Comics, as well as a few other titles for individual characters from the team.  You can only download 3 titles a day, but I've been having fun reading them while waiting for more info on CO...they even have rules and character bios in the back (though for an older edition of the HERO rules...it's still cool though). 

Well, the end of the work week and the CO team has given us some more goodies.

QuoteYou asked, we answer!
Here are a few of the questions submitted on our forums recently. Thanks very much to Jackalope, Arkayne and Heretic for their answers!

If we didn't get to your question, don't worry. We're going to be doing this frequently, and you'll have a chance to ask again. We're as excited as you are about Champions Online – it's just that there's a lot to talk about, so we can't get to every question immediately.

Will we be told what decisions were made based on drawing Inspiration from the HERO system? HERO'philes want to know what parts of their beloved system to expect. (Drakos)

Jackalope: Well, Drakos, some of the stuff will be pretty darn obvious! We're lifting some terminology straight from the HERO System and putting it into Champions. However, the HERO System and Champions Online won't be identical.

For those of you who don't know Champions – go out and buy it right now – and just settle for my very brief description. A player receives a certain amount of points at character creation and then allocates them into a variety of areas: characteristics, powers, skills, etc. There's a single commodity, these hero points, which players use in both character creation and advancement. The beauty of the system is its flexibility. You can create just about any power, any character you can imagine.

In terms of powers, you start out with a very generic description. Let's say you wanted a long range flame blast. First, a player selects "Energy Blast" (every blast in Champions starts out as an Energy Blast). Then he'd select a variety of advantages to simulate long range and damage over time. After applying these advantages, a player calculates the final cost. There's another step – what sort of power structure you can place the power in – but I'll leave that alone for the moment.

To compare this system to others, there is no such thing as a "Dark Blast" or an "Ice Blast" in the HERO System. Mechanically, everything is just an Energy Blast, but with different advantages and even limitations applied.

If we turn to Champions Online, we won't be using the exact same point system, power advantages, characteristics, power limitations or disadvantages (all of this is Hero lingo). We are using systems that are essentially the same, but fit the MMORPG genre somewhat better. In Champions Online, we will have Dark Blast, Ice Blast, etc. Now, a player will be able to affect how these things develop, but this won't be an orthogonal to the choices in the HERO system.

Our inspiration from the Champions RPG is to allow players to customize their powers. Rather than trying to copy the specific power advantages and limitations (and the +/- fractions), we're trying to achieve the same goal of power customization. So yes, we'll have advantages and limitations, but they won't be the same type in the HERO System core rulebook. They'll be different ...

   A little bit more in depth about how they're going to work the powers.  So its not quite as open as a lot of people thought it would be and it appears there will be some limitations to how customized you can get your powers.  It looks like it could still be a branching system for choosing powers and their effects, but not as restrictive as CoH.

QuoteWill non-combat skills come into play?

As an example, if a level has a reactor which may explode, blocking off entry to an area, can that reactor be set to normal with a 'Science' skill? Can a 'Security' roll be made to gain entrance to areas that you couldn't otherwise enter? (rabb1t)

Arkayne: Yes there is rabb1t! There are skills you can learn, develop, and use to affect your environment. For example, while raiding a VIPER base you may come across a team of VIPER agents accessing a Draysha Gas station to make themselves more powerful in combat. If your Science skill is high enough, you may be able to shut down the gas vents or reconfigure it so you can gain the benefits (and drawbacks) of the gas! We have a good distribution of Skill-based interactions throughout the game so players will have lots of fun figuring out how to turn an environment to their advantage or unlock bonus elements.

:blink:

   Now this to me was a complete surprise.  Skills?  And not in a halfassed, shoe-horned inventions kind of way?  I'm excited by this, but trying to be realistic about how minimal and small this system will actually be.  Still.  Skills! 

QuoteHow do you intend to avoid Archvillain fights that are nothing more than high hit point slugouts? (Ex_Machina)

Arkayne: Excellent question, Ex_Machina! One of the things we learned from previous MMOs is that while a bag o'hit points villain is fun to take down once in awhile, you also need more interesting boss fights. As part of the Nemesis system, there will be special "Showdown" scenarios based on forced confrontations with your Nemesis and his or her minions. The scenario differs each time with different objectives so it'll keep your Nemesis fights interesting.

   I'm intrigued by that.  The idea of bosses being nothing but npc's with mega hitpoints has always disappointed me.  I likened it to the idea of the JLA in a full on assault on the Joker.  It just wasn't fun for everything.  Here's hoping they do find some interesting and unique ways to mix it up a bit.

QuoteWhat will the "death penalty" be? (Hythian)

Arkayne: The "death penalty" is fairly simple, Hythian. After a player is defeated, he or she can choose to wait until another nearby player with healilng powers puts them back in the fight. Failing that, the player can choose to go to a nearby recovery point. Those points are spread throughout zones and instance maps.

Regardless of what the player chooses to do, they have to pay a small price for defeat: upgrade degradation. Upgrades are pieces of equipment, imbuements, special training, etc., that players use to make their character more powerful. Every upgrade has a condition associated with it. Whenever a player is defeated any upgrades the player has slotted degrade. If the condition of an upgrade is reduced to 0, it stops providing a benefit. Upgrades can be restored to full effectiveness for a resource cost at most hero safe areas throughout the game. This represents items being repaired, re-exposure to experimental rays, combat technique montages, etc.

   At first upgrade degradation was equipment degradation.  The forums were about to drop into hell until the devs came back and clarified things a bit.  I'm still not quite sure how much I like it.  I always liked XP debt as an idea - there had to be some penalty to being defeated, I just thought it was a bit steep.
   So, I'm going to assume CO upgrades=CoH enhancements.  Instead of a 5 levels lifespan, they degrade with defeat.  Interesting.  No real opinion on this yet, I'll have to see how much of a benefit upgrades provide first.

QuoteI've got a question about the new combat system. In the newest Game Informer, it said that the combat feels more like Marvel: Ultimate Alliance. So to touch upon a question from another thread, do we still auto-target our opponents and have a fireball follow them around corners and even through allies? Or can a selfless friend stand in front of you, defend you and take the hit? (Dusk)

Heretic: You will auto-target your opponent, but there are a couple of changes to how we are approaching player powers that should minimize the "fireball following them around corners" issue.

First, we have shortened activation times as much as possible. This makes the game feel faster and more responsive, but it also significantly reduces the frequency of projectiles following around corners.

Second, we are relying more heavily on charge-up and maintained attacks. The advantage of these type of attacks is that they give the player the opportunity to block or move to put walls and other objects in the way and close off line of sight from their attacker.

I'm still trying to understand the difference between activation time and charge-ups.  It seems they're saying this may actually encourage more interesting battles, by being able to use the environment to your advantage.  I'm all for that.

RTT

One of the best things CoH did was the "AV's become EB's solo and on lower difficulties" thing. EB fights were way more fun than AV fights will ever be. You actually felt "super" when they had similar HP as you and didn't off you in one shot.

But this whole MUA with equipment and a monthly fee doesn't sound that great. And I swore I read that max team size was 5 people. Why not just pick up MUA at that point? You lose out on character customization, but you save the 15 bucks a month. and, while equipment and "loot" was inevitable, I much prefer the CoH system of loot. It's there, you can use it, but by no means do you need the uber loot to do anything. For a lot of players it just became a cash flow source at low levels. Add to the fact that CO is not going on a mostly instanced base, and will have outdoor mobs, how much of it is going to be standing around for hours waiting for a big baddy to spawn so you can maybe get that one uber helmet or something? Atleast with old school hami raids there was almost zero chance of your 2 or 3 hour wait being wasted.

    I keep getting this fear myself that CO is just going to be a really, really, really fancy version of Gauntlet.  I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.
    You heard right, Devs said team limit is 5.  I don't care much for that either, but reportedly you can team up with other teams, so... take that as you may.

RTT

So far the power customization system doesn't bother me.  I'll just wait to reserve judgment until I see a more complete list of powers.  They say you can create any hero you want, but that isn't true if you still basically choose from a limited number of powers or power sets like in CoH.

Skills!  Yay!  I know I've been wanting other types of quests rather than beating up opponents.  Maybe we'll get to see some quests that will allow multiple ways of solving them, or perhaps quests that don't involve "defeating" a villain at all.

I'm still very keen on the Archvillains.  I do hope they will have something setup that will discourage players from gimping their archvillain.  I mean, if you create them, and you get XP or loot for defeating them or their plans, wouldn't many people simply make their archvillain weak to their hero's main method of attack?

The upgrade degradation sounds like the equipment degradation employed by WoW.  There your equipment suffers a condition loss when you respawn.  You then pay to get them fixed when they start to turn "red".  In WoW, this cost increases as you get higher and higher in level.

The instant and charging method sounds like that often used in platform shooters or fighting games.  Fighting game style might be something like holding the control in one direction then moving in the opposite direction with a button press.  It would be much like Guile's Sonic Boom or Blanka's tumble roll.  Shooter style might be like Megaman, tap the button for standard quick shot or hold the button down to develop a charge and then release for a big blast.  I'm inclinesd to think it will be shooter style.

Now when referring to team size, do they mean PuGs or Supergroups?  If it's just the play team, that's no big deal.  We've been limited before.

Unlike some people, I will not jump right into this game until I get a full understanding of how it will work and how it compares to other games.  I don't want to fall into the trap of buying the software and subscribing for several months only to find out how incredibly dull the game is. (Like CoH.)  Of course if they allow a person to use the character generator offline when you purchase the game, I will probably buy it even if the gameplay itself is bad.  It is worth it to me to buy the game if I can use the generator offline.

WoW actually solves a lot of the problems you guys are bringing up, and you can guarantee they're going to be aping the best-in-the-industry MMO wherever they can.

Quote from: Verfall on March 15, 2008, 08:39:33 AM
One of the best things CoH did was the "AV's become EB's solo and on lower difficulties" thing. EB fights were way more fun than AV fights will ever be. You actually felt "super" when they had similar HP as you and didn't off you in one shot.

WoW has very few AV-level threats (final bosses in dungeons, and a very small number of roving giant monsters). Instead, most questline bosses have 1.5 to 2 times normal hit points, plus a number of unique abilities. The fights, instead of being "stand and smash" fights like CoH's AVs and EBs, are more like fighting Ice Mistral and Calystix-- the bad guys have interesting "technical" powers like summoning, debuffs, knockback, controls, final-fantasy-ripoff-invulnerability-part-of-the-time, or whatever else. There's no one single strategy for taking down Big Bads in WoW-- every one is different, and requires a different strategy. It's actually about ten times as entertaining as even the best CoH boss fights.

QuoteBut this whole MUA with equipment and a monthly fee doesn't sound that great. And I swore I read that max team size was 5 people. Why not just pick up MUA at that point?

Everquest is almost identical to many RPGs that existed at the time. People play MMOs for the social interaction, not just for the game content itself. I played CoH for over a year after it stopped being fun just because I liked the people who played.

Quotewhile equipment and "loot" was inevitable, I much prefer the CoH system of loot. It's there, you can use it, but by no means do you need the uber loot to do anything.

This is a common misconception about loot games-- generally speaking, loot is only really needed in the end game. When you're levelling, you just wear whatever you find, and you're fine. The loot grind in most games is simply a way to keep max-level players engaged, to keep their subscription fees coming in. But if, like me, you're not interested in the loot grind, you can just hit max level and start another guy. Or, you can do the end-game "entrance level" content which is still quite fun. Loot grind is there for those who want it, and it's skippable for those who don't.

QuoteAdd to the fact that CO is not going on a mostly instanced base, and will have outdoor mobs

I'll come right out and say it: though I initially hated the all-outdoor style of WoW, ultimately it was only because it wasn't what I was used to. After playing through the game, I can say unequivocally that I much, MUCH prefer the all-outdoor style of gameplay. It just means that the game designers take what you would do in one of CoH's missions (run here, click these four glowies, kill this boss) and put it in a specific spot outdoors. All of the same varieties of gameplay are there-- a lot more, actually-- but you just don't have to wade through forty thousand goons to get to every piece of it. It's hard to properly stress how much I prefer WoW's levelling content to CoH's. In CoH, you basically do the EXACT SAME MISSION, over and over, from 1 to 50. Enter map, wipe out contents, [fulfill mission objective]. That's it. Over and over and over and over again. They put different enemies in it, and it changes as the players get more powers, but you're just doing the same bloody thing over and over again. With the outdoor model, they can strip out the mindless goon grind in every mission, and put more emphasis on making the mission objectives more challenging and interesting.

Quotehow much of it is going to be standing around for hours waiting for a big baddy to spawn so you can maybe get that one uber helmet or something?

Guys with loot tables don't spawn on the world map. Big guys on the world map have the same drop rates as every other guy on the world map. Only guys in instances have specific loot drops.

The point of this post isn't to say "WoW is t3h @w3s0m3!11!!". It's a very good game, and it was fun for six months, but it had just as many problems as any other game I've ever played. All I'm pointing out is that the specific problems that you guys bring up already have well-known solutions, which can be easily incorporated into CO if they want to.

I despised WoW for the simple reason that if you pulled more than one mob, you were dead. You could run, and hope to make it away, but if you were in a cave environment, you often ran into another mob. Nothing like playing the Tank class of the game, and getting beaten down by 2 mobs.

Nevermind the fact, besides Spud, the one other person I ran into in the game said 2 words to me, "hey" followed by "arse". I expect CO to be way better than WoW, for me anyway. Even Guild Wars was better than WoW. But add the fact I'm a moderate CoH fanboy, and the fact I really dislike Statesdouche, I'm of course going to be skeptical to CO. But right now, all I'm seeing is a list of features basically stolen from the CoH whiteboard, mixed with generic MMO features and sprinkled with a pretty good background that I expect to be brutally mangled by their storyline dept.

But just pray gecko isn't handling powers in CO. Those of you who complain about CoH's powers system can only point your finger at that "genius".

I been meaning to get tot his the last few days...

Quote from: captainspud on March 15, 2008, 09:45:43 AM
WoW actually solves a lot of the problems you guys are bringing up, and you can guarantee they're going to be aping the best-in-the-industry MMO wherever they can.

Really?  I have had absolutely NO desire to play any kind of D&D game - I burned out on that genre before I hit my teens.  What you've said his piqued my interest in the game - I'd be interested and willing to give it a look if its, well --- fun to play.  Do they have any trial offers available?

QuoteWoW has very few AV-level threats (final bosses in dungeons, and a very small number of roving giant monsters). Instead, most questline bosses have 1.5 to 2 times normal hit points, plus a number of unique abilities. The fights, instead of being "stand and smash" fights like CoH's AVs and EBs, are more like fighting Ice Mistral and Calystix-- the bad guys have interesting "technical" powers like summoning, debuffs, knockback, controls, final-fantasy-ripoff-invulnerability-part-of-the-time, or whatever else. There's no one single strategy for taking down Big Bads in WoW-- every one is different, and requires a different strategy. It's actually about ten times as entertaining as even the best CoH boss fights.

And that is what COH so needs!  It's amazing and dumbfounding to me this isn't the norm in COH.  Slapping a gazzillion hp's on a boss does not a challenge make.  I'd love to fight baddies that required a bit of thinking, planning and strategy.  You know, say for example a character like Mynx who kept moving and jumping around and until you actually landed something that planted her --- could you then really damage her.  Other characters who are human, who shouldn't have a gazzillion hp's, but have an army of NPC's around them doing buffs and etc that you have to defeat first.  Stuff like that.  Does WOW really have that?  Damnit... why doesn't COH?

Whats your favorite example of that in WOW, Spuds?

QuoteI played CoH for over a year after it stopped being fun just because I liked the people who played.

Been there, done that.  Sad, isn't it?  I kept playing until I finally hit 50 with EC.  Soon after that, even the people couldn't keep me around.

Quote

QuoteAdd to the fact that CO is not going on a mostly instanced base, and will have outdoor mobs

I'll come right out and say it: though I initially hated the all-outdoor style of WoW, ultimately it was only because it wasn't what I was used to. After playing through the game, I can say unequivocally that I much, MUCH prefer the all-outdoor style of gameplay. It just means that the game designers take what you would do in one of CoH's missions (run here, click these four glowies, kill this boss) and put it in a specific spot outdoors. All of the same varieties of gameplay are there-- a lot more, actually-- but you just don't have to wade through forty thousand goons to get to every piece of it. It's hard to properly stress how much I prefer WoW's levelling content to CoH's. In CoH, you basically do the EXACT SAME MISSION, over and over, from 1 to 50. Enter map, wipe out contents, [fulfill mission objective]. That's it. Over and over and over and over again. They put different enemies in it, and it changes as the players get more powers, but you're just doing the same bloody thing over and over again. With the outdoor model, they can strip out the mindless goon grind in every mission, and put more emphasis on making the mission objectives more challenging and interesting.

This is interesting.  It's different and less of a grind outdoors because you can avoid all the mobs.  I don't think that means COH instanced missions are bad, as just really poorly designed.  I like the idea of going into a building and having to accomplish a goal.  The idea of being able to avoid all the mobs outdoors and doing you're goal easily sounds like a swing all the way in the other direction where it is too easy.  I think there needs to be a balance between the two.  It would certainly be more interesting if the instanced missions were a bit more dynamic, for example having multiple entrances and exits.  I think that would help the problem a bit.

Again, I'm really curious about this.  Whats the best example you can give me of a WOW mission thats similar to a COH mission --- but better?

QuoteThe point of this post isn't to say "WoW is t3h @w3s0m3!11!!". It's a very good game, and it was fun for six months, but it had just as many problems as any other game I've ever played. All I'm pointing out is that the specific problems that you guys bring up already have well-known solutions, which can be easily incorporated into CO if they want to.

You've actually made me very curious as to the game Spud and very tempted to try it.  You figure at this point, people would be able to take the best of other previous MMO's, and keep adding to it.  Yet they don't.  I would really like to see CO take the best of a lot of things and use it effectively.  Its a shame we won't see a lot of this in COH, of course, its an older game, but they've really backed themselves into a corner.  CO has a great chance to really take the genre and game in general and make it shine.  I hope COH can really do something as well.   I doubt it, I really, really do.  Hopefully NC Soft will apply the resources.

I honestly don't care which game is better.  I have no allegiance to either.  I just want to play a fun game and really, really enjoy myself.  Whichever one does it, gets my money.

RTT

QuoteWhats your favorite example of that in WOW, Spuds?

A couple quick examples off the top of my head:

1) A miniboss in a dungeon who is a Shaman. Shamans in-game drop "Totems"-- basically DE Emanators. Some heal, some resist mez, some do AoE damage. For this boss, he drops five different totems-- three of them you can generally ignore, but there are two you need to keep track of. One causes him to heal at a rate far greater than the damage a five-man team can inflict. The other is an impact bomb-- it lasts for five seconds, after which it disappears. But if you shoot it, it explodes and takes your whole team with it. The fun bit? Those last two look exactly the same. :) So, there are two things you need to do. First of all, the tank needs to keep the Shammy constantly running back and forth up the hallway you find him in, so that when he drops a totem, you'll run him out of its radius within a few seconds. Secondly, you need to have one of the team's damage people on totem duty, watching for when the tall red totems drop, targeting them to see which it is, and if it's a healer totem, you nuke it. It's a really fun fight, as everybody has something to do and the fight is always moving, and there's always the tension that someone will accidentally hit a bomb totem by accident.

Really, I could pick just about any of the dungeon bosses or minibosses. They ALL have a trick.

2) There's a mission where you need to kill this weird giant ghost vulture... thing. It constantly circles the sky over the zone, but it never gets low enough to shoot. So, you need to lure it down. If you run across the zone, you'll find its mate, who is still alive. You kill it, and take its body. You bring it to the camp of these bird-people-things, who are also ghosts, and you sacrifice the body at a large totem. This pisses off the main ghost vulture thing, which swoops down and attacks you. Throughout the fight it flaps its wings and throws you around.

Quite a few mission bosses are summoned in one way or another; this reduces the amount of "crap, that team just killed him" waits.

3) There's this thing that walks around the first zone of the expansion world, called a Fel Reaver. It's basically a 200ft-tall walking steam train. It looks pretty sweet (http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module2/77862/Fel_Reaver_qjpreviewth.jpg). It walks around, and you can tell it's coming because the ground shakes and it actually makes quite a bit of noise. If you DON'T notice it coming, or you do and don't get out of the way, it simply walks on you and you die. This doesn't happen terribly often, but rather just enough to make you wary. It's a constant fixture of the first zone, practically a part of the map-- you'll be fighting near the road, and suddenly someone yells, "REAVER!", and everybody just knows to scramble out of the way.

So it's with more than a little surprise that, once you hit 70, you pick up a quest chain to forge a key for a particular dungeon, and you're told that only one fire will do: the fire in the chest of a Fel Reaver. The monstrosity that was instant death 10 levels before, you now have to track down and topple. It's a huge task, requiring a full team and careful planning, but it's tremendously empowering when you pull it off-- it's one of a few things they get you to do at 70 to really make you feel that you've "arrived" and are just as powerful as the heroic figures you've fought along for your adventuring career.

QuoteWhats the best example you can give me of a WOW mission thats similar to a COH mission --- but better?

It's not really a matter of "this mission was similar, but better". It's more that the kind of missions CoH makes you do, just work a lot better with an open game world. If you need to recover an artifact, you can go about that any way you like-- enter the camp it's in by wherever you choose, kill as few or as many guards as you want, and then grab the thingie. But the nice thing is, if you've got four missions that tell you to do various things in a particular camp, you can do all of them at the same time. Enter the base, and fight your way to one end to click a glowie. Then go up into a treehouse to kill a boss. And all the while, you're doing kill quotas on the camp members, and collecting drop items ("collect 10 blue feathers") to advance yet another quest. In CoH, you'd have to run into (seemingly) the same map and kill the same guys, over and over again, to complete four different missions.

There's even indoor segments-- you'll often run into castles, or underground cavern complexes, or what have you. Generally speaking, these maps are logically laid out, with entrances and exits where it makes sense to put them. "Defeat All Enemies" is never a victory condition-- you're always there for a reason, accomplishing a specific task.

You can get a 14-day trial of WoW on their main site if you want to see how it works. I'm not a fan of fantasy settings myself, but WoW's interesting visuals (Omg, bright colours in a fantasy game!) and heavy steampunk influence make it relatively palatable for me.

That said: the wait for travel powers (mounts) is interminable. ;_;

Quote from: captainspud on March 16, 2008, 01:22:35 PM
It's not really a matter of "this mission was similar, but better". It's more that the kind of missions CoH makes you do, just work a lot better with an open game world. If you need to recover an artifact, you can go about that any way you like-- enter the camp it's in by wherever you choose, kill as few or as many guards as you want, and then grab the thingie. But the nice thing is, if you've got four missions that tell you to do various things in a particular camp, you can do all of them at the same time. Enter the base, and fight your way to one end to click a glowie. Then go up into a treehouse to kill a boss. And all the while, you're doing kill quotas on the camp members, and collecting drop items ("collect 10 blue feathers") to advance yet another quest. In CoH, you'd have to run into (seemingly) the same map and kill the same guys, over and over again, to complete four different missions.

Yeah... about the only time you can get multiple mish's done at once in COX is if you have two different "Defeat X of Y Villains" where both have the same type of villain (and location, if applicable), or if you hace a "Defeat X of Y Villains" and a Door or Train mish (in the same zone, if applicable) against the same type of villain.

There really is no reason why CoX can't overhaul the way they do bosses and AV's in a similar fashion... other than development time and system performance.

And there's even precedent for the outdoors missions... the various 'train' missions that deliver you to an instanced outdoors map.  Granted, it's only in a limited way, but maybe could be leveraged?

Issue 10 was groundbreaking for CoX in the sense that a World event (Rikti invasion) could be triggered by one team taking on the TF.  Imagine if some of the 'monster' attacks could be triggered in a similar way?

Really, I think there's still room for CoX to make significant improvements in gameplay.  The real show-stopper is going to be whether they can get the development time and whether there are limitations in the engine/AI that can't be overcome without degrading performance or starting over from scratch.

The root problem that CoX cannot easily overcome is the inherent rigidity of the power system.  CO could conceivably eat CoX's lunch there.  But it sounds like issue 12 will be a step in the right direction.

I haven't played CoX for a long time (so I don't know if it was changed), but one of the inherent differences between outdoor environments in WoW and CoX is there are no loading times between world areas except between continents or dimensions or during a long distance port.  Since Champions Online is claiming to have a "world" environment, I'm expecting the seamless transition between areas.  Such a method of world delivery contributes to the immersion factor.

On WoW:
Not to derail the thread too much, but I really like WoW and have been playing a lot of it lately.  I have a level 70 blood elf hunter on Norgannon and some other alts I'm having fun with.  RT, if you want to pm me I'll tell you whatever you want to know about it.

On CoX:
I absolutely agree with everyone's comments on the rediculous difficulty of AV fights, and the lack of more reasonable costumed villains to fight.  It is the one single thing that detracts from the comic book flavor of the CoX universe...and I would venture to suggest that this is reflected in the miserable failure of the comic.  A hero is only as good as the villains he faces, and when you only have the Arachnos commanders and the evil Freedom Phalanx, well...

On CO:
One thing that really bugged me about CoX (and that I'm dying to have addressed in CO) is the "level 1" state of your hero.  It's annoying that you have to invest so many hours just to get a few powers and a cape so you can even begin to come close to matching your character concept...not to mention auras at 30?  Really?  Just to glow?  I would love to see CO address this in a similiar way to how it is done in the PnP game.  It is entirely possible to build a viable hero with multiple powers (and capes and auras!) from the start...advancement is all about increasing your powers, and perhaps discovering new ones, etc.  I'm not sure I'm communicating this clearly, but basically I want to be able to make Lightning Bug (with flight, a few electical abillities and WINGS without having to have Meej buy them for me for millions of millions of influence at the consignment house 3 years after I created the character) and have her rougly match the concept in my head when I first create the character.

Amen.  Level 1-2 heroes in CoH hardly qualify to be called 'super'.  I don't even start feeling 'super' until about level 10-16.  If CO fixes that, they'll be so far ahead of the game it won't be funny.

I'm sure they recognize that, to some degree.  Levelling in CoX at the lowest levels has never been faster than it is now.  Between nerfing XP Debt below level 10, the XP smoothing, better drops, 'bonus' powers for completing Safeguards, 'bonus' Veteran powers, etc., you can level up above 10 pretty quickly and start getting that feel.

I seriously doubted that CoX would ever get better, but the last few issues have progressively made me optimistic that they'll at least make an attempt to improve the game experience.  It's too much to hope that they'll chuck the AT system altogether, but the things they're doing now are certainly buying them time to do more.

Quote from: BlueBard on March 17, 2008, 11:33:41 AM
Amen.  Level 1-2 heroes in CoH hardly qualify to be called 'super'.  I don't even start feeling 'super' until about level 10-16.  If CO fixes that, they'll be so far ahead of the game it won't be funny.

I'm sure they recognize that, to some degree.  Levelling in CoX at the lowest levels has never been faster than it is now.  Between nerfing XP Debt below level 10, the XP smoothing, better drops, 'bonus' powers for completing Safeguards, 'bonus' Veteran powers, etc., you can level up above 10 pretty quickly and start getting that feel.

I seriously doubted that CoX would ever get better, but the last few issues have progressively made me optimistic that they'll at least make an attempt to improve the game experience.  It's too much to hope that they'll chuck the AT system altogether, but the things they're doing now are certainly buying them time to do more.

Just to drive the point home, why could CoX have gotten so much better over the last few issues? Could it be because a certain someone is long gone? And which game is that certain someone working on now?

Chew on that maybe.

Um, I'd say the timing suggests that it's more because they got rid of NCSoft. Large corporations don't like big changes, and it's likely that the Suits locked down any changes that altered the game too dramatically, for fear of driving off the portion of the game who like it how it is. With NC gone, the developers were free to unlock the wish list and do the things that made the old higher-ups too nervous.

Quote from: captainspud on March 17, 2008, 06:05:14 PM
Um, I'd say the timing suggests that it's more because they got rid of NCSoft. Large corporations don't like big changes, and it's likely that the Suits locked down any changes that altered the game too dramatically, for fear of driving off the portion of the game who like it how it is. With NC gone, the developers were free to unlock the wish list and do the things that made the old higher-ups too nervous.

Haha, you mean NCsoft got rid of Cryptic? Since NCsoft owns CoX now and all. The good stuff came under NCsoft's watch, not Jack and Cryptic.

I got to prove Spud wrong!

*does a happy dance*

That still doesn't mean anything. Jack's been working on MUO for over a year, and had no further contact with the CoH team during that time. Posi had a year to make changes, and he didn't. Whatever happened to make the team go into overdrive happened because of the split, which did NOT involve the sudden removal of Jack. So actually, you're just as wrong as me.

So, updated wild guess: NC knew people would be hesitant at the split (which we were), and told the team to fire off some "wish list" items to keep the fans happy. They also knew at this point that Jack's team was making a superhero MMO, and that if they didn't get their crap together and fix CoH, it was going to lose its entire playerbase to the New & Shiny.

No matter how you slice it, the "new golden age" of CoH isn't about personnel shake-ups. The team of people who left, left way before the changes started happening. Whatever the motivation was, the new changes were due to someone's request/order to pour more money in. Either Posi requisitioned some funding and got it, or the higher-ups predicted the turmoil of the split and impending new competition, and pre-emptively fed money to the team.

It wasn't about "MWAHAHAHA JACK'S GONE NOW WE CAN DO WHAT WE WANT!". The CoH team is working at a disadvantage now that CO's been announced, and someone made the (very smart) decision to minimize the damage by overhauling CoH.

Hate on States all you want; Posi sat around like a useless lump for just as long as States did. States is not Dr. Doom, nor is Posi Superman. CO isn't going to be a festering turd just because Jack's at the helm, and CoH isn't suddenly going to become a superhero holodeck just because he's gone.

Shades of grey, my friend. Shades of grey.

Quote from: captainspud on March 17, 2008, 08:26:51 PM
That still doesn't mean anything. Jack's been working on MUO for over a year, and had no further contact with the CoH team during that time. Posi had a year to make changes, and he didn't. Whatever happened to make the team go into overdrive happened because of the split, which did NOT involve the sudden removal of Jack. So actually, you're just as wrong as me.

So, updated wild guess: NC knew people would be hesitant at the split (which we were), and told the team to fire off some "wish list" items to keep the fans happy. They also knew at this point that Jack's team was making a superhero MMO, and that if they didn't get their crap together and fix CoH, it was going to lose its entire playerbase to the New & Shiny.

No matter how you slice it, the "new golden age" of CoH isn't about personnel shake-ups. The team of people who left, left way before the changes started happening. Whatever the motivation was, the new changes were due to someone's request/order to pour more money in. Either Posi requisitioned some funding and got it, or the higher-ups predicted the turmoil of the split and impending new competition, and pre-emptively fed money to the team.

It wasn't about "MWAHAHAHA JACK'S GONE NOW WE CAN DO WHAT WE WANT!". The CoH team is working at a disadvantage now that CO's been announced, and someone made the (very smart) decision to minimize the damage by overhauling CoH.

Hate on States all you want; Posi sat around like a useless lump for just as long as States did. States is not Dr. Doom, nor is Posi Superman. CO isn't going to be a festering turd just because Jack's at the helm, and CoH isn't suddenly going to become a superhero holodeck just because he's gone.

Shades of grey, my friend. Shades of grey.

Actually, MUO was announced on September 27, 2006. Issue 8, the first issue noted for starting to produce things players were asking for came out November 28th, 2006. Inventions hit the next May. So it took 2 months for Posi and co. to start tossing out the good stuff, and 7 months before a huge change came about. Not exactly a year now was it? The split was announced less than a month before issue 11 dropped. They had already delivered 3 solid issues that had been very well received, and issue 11 itself would have to have been in development for at least 4 months prior to the split announcement.

But I've never said it was a case of "Jack's gone" so much as "we're not tied to Jack's vision and ideas". Posi has proven to be a much better developer in regards to player satisfaction, and Castle and BAB's pay a lot of attention to the playerbase and admit when things aren't working. The Rage issue recently showed just how much they actually listen. Compare that to Geko and the broken regen numbers on their personal test server being used as the basis for nerfing the live version.

And from the forums, I'd say the majority of forum users were far from hesitant about the split. In fact, it would seem the majority were happy to toss Jack out on his keister by this point.

I'll say it again, CO will only be a good game if Jack's ideas are run through a strainer by someone with a good head for game design. CoV had Zeb Cook prior to Grandville and all its shortcomings. And when you get down too it, CoV is the better game. Unfortunately it suffers from CoH already being established, people having large amounts of funds over there and the odd moral conundrum some people have about playing a bad guy. But I'm willing to bet if you polled just the people here on this site, the majority would say they had more fun playing a villain.

Jack is an idea man who needs a publicist and a professional game designer to make his stuff work. By himself, you get nothing but feces.

Whatever the reason, it does seem that the old "Like it or Leave" mentality has departed the CoX team and that the changes that are being made are cumulatively making the game a better experience.

XP Smoothing or Inventions or Rikti Invasions alone wouldn't have been enough to keep me from leaving the game.  Even the addition of new powersets wouldn't have done it.  It's the intelligent evolution of the game that is getting my attention.  Whoever is responsible for that is the one keeping me playing.

It ain't States, might not even be Positron, but it's definitely good for CoX.

BTW... I'm one of those who doesn't have more fun playing as a villain.  I won't argue that Villainside doesn't look better visually or that the AT's are better designed in some ways.  Just can't be happy doing rotten things, even if it is just a game, unless I'm really really frustrated about something and want to take it out on something that isn't real.  It's not odd.  It's just moral.

Quote from: Valandar on March 04, 2008, 06:57:53 PM
I know.

But it mentions having a "points based system", and if those things aren't rigidly controlled... ouch.

BTW, I still have my copy of "The Island of Doctor Destroyer" module...

Those laser cages were nasty as I recall!  ;)  Great to see so many fellow vet Champions players.  I used to GM a Champions campaign back in the day.  Champions for me was always THE Superhero RPG of choice for the sheer fact of it's flexibility.  You could build nearly any power or hero you could conceive of if you had the know how.  And it was heavy on skills as well.  And if CO reflects that system of flexibility (and it sure seems so) it is something to be excited about!

I don't know about the game play...and I'll defer most of that to you who are more experienced.  I will say this, I hope that they allow characters to fly, teleport etc straight away.  I just don't like that COH limits movement powers to like level 14 or something.  And I concurr with everyone who say that is best to have costumed bad guys to battle.  I like the fact that solo play will be fully supported.  Iow, you don't have to join a team if you don't want to.  And I really do like the fact that players are going to be able to design their own arch enemy who "hunts" them.  With the pen, paper, dice game it was common for a hero to have the disadvantage "hunted".  Which brings up a good question, has any of the designers said if players will get more points for powers and skills by taking on various disadvantages???  That would ROCK!  I do have to say that the lack of capes is a bummer.  But COH didn't capes immediately either (or wings for that matter).  They added them in later.  So maybe it will be so with CO.

I have to say that I'm pretty stoked about this.  I've always enjoyed the Champions Universe.  For example, I was amused to read about "Stronghold" (the classic super prison) and that the most powerful character in there is "Mentor".  I remember that guy!!!  And I like Doctor D's new look.  As I recall Defender was initially a powered armored hero...this is definitely a new take for him.

I'm going to go dig out my old Champions characters and see if I can't replicate them.  Very exciting!

Does anyone know when CO is to be released and/or how much they plan to charge for it?

Yeah, Defender was their take on Iron Man... Crusader was obviously Captain America. Grond was The Hulk, Brick was The Thing, Doctor Destroyer was Doc Doom, and so on. Almost all of the core Champions characters were either nearly direct ripoffs of existing comics characters, or were versions "through a mirror darkly". Rainbow Archer, for example, was an evil female Green Arrow, Mentor was an evil Professor X, and more.

anyone know what the cost is for this.  Free would be great.

Quote from: cripp12 on March 18, 2008, 10:58:36 AM
anyone know what the cost is for this.  Free would be great.

I see no reason for it to break from the MMO model of a $50 boxed game and $10-20 a month.

Quote from: captainspud on March 18, 2008, 11:11:53 AM

Quote from: cripp12 on March 18, 2008, 10:58:36 AM
anyone know what the cost is for this.  Free would be great.

I see no reason for it to break from the MMO model of a $50 boxed game and $10-20 a month.

If for no other reason than to recoup the initial investment toward getting the game off the ground.

'Free' MMO's are usually organically grown, web-based, low tech, and either ad supported or based on lots of mini payments for access to special gear and such.

Running servers costs money, even if the development was free.  Which it ain't.

I was reading somemore from the CO website.  I love the description of Millenium City: http://www.champions-online.com/worlds/millennium_city (http://www.champions-online.com/worlds/millennium_city)

It definitely has a Paragon City feel to it.  But then again, Paragon City doesn't have Viper Agents lurking about it's alleys! 

Actually, I think CoH blows CoV out of the water in every conceivable way.  CoV is just a more linear, more repitative version of CoH with different dialogue where everything is shaded grey.  CoH is infinitely more replayble.

There was an interview with Jack on Game Informer about "what went wrong with CoX" and he was pretty candid about the mistakes he made.  And it's not like he's designing the game by himself.  The "Jack 1s suxxor!" arguement means nothing to me and I'm amazed and saddened at how many people on many different forums are actually hoping that CO will fail for no other reason than so they can say, "See!  Jack is the suxxor!"

DK

Part of CoH's problem for a player base like the one represented here is that there is a fundamental disconnect between the game world and what ostensibly are its 4-color roots.  As mentioned elsewhere, everything about AV encounters is wrong if you're looking for the most basic superhero genre convention...hero vs. villain battles.  Instead, the developers decided to create what is basically just another MMO, with scads of nameless foes standing around waiting to be defeated.  It shuns these conventions severely enough that a successful comic can't even be created based the CoX universe....in fact, read the final issues of the last failed attempt at a CoH comic and you'll see that the writers basically gave up trying to make the world make sense and broke the 4th wall, introducing game elements that make no sense in the context of a superhero story (I was appaled when the Freedom Phalanx discovered the badge on top of City Hall in Atlas Park).  While the backstory for the CoH universe is filled with really cool stuff that fits the genre perfectly, the present day Paragon City as presented to the gamer is essentially Generic MMO World 018 populated by superheroes with nothing left to do that fits the genre once they've saved the lady getting her purse stolen and stopped a gang from breaking into a warehouse/office building/car.  For pete's sake, heroes can't even interact with a burning building in a manner true to the genre...superheroes with innate powers more than suitable for handling the situation are forced to get (and keep refilled) water cannons Super Mario style and particpate in an immersion breaking mini-game. 

(Don't get me wrong...I love CoH and think it's a great game.  I just don't think it represents the genre well at all, and for players like us I think that makes a large difference in how much enjoyment we get out of it.)

In terms of the genre, CoV is even worse.  Once you've broken into the bank and had the hero show up to stop you, that's the last genre experience you're likely to have for the next 16 levels (which is as far as I've gotten as a villain).  Again, interaction and conflict with costumed heroes is missing almost entirely, and instead villains fight giant snake people inexplicably occupying tiki-themed casinos.  In other words, Generic MMO World 019.  Again I reference the last CoH comic series as an example of how awkward it is to work this setting into a traditional comic book superhero story. 

As far as the debate about Jack and company, let me remind everyone that CoH started with a character creation system essentially lifted from the Champions rule books.  The early alpha testers (friends and family of the developers I believe) were having issues unknowingly gimping their characters and being unable to have a satisfactory game experience...thus CoH was delayed and the AT system was forced on us.  If the developers had a little more experience, they might have figured out a way for the original concept to work (obviously, since something similiar will exist in CO), but basically we're playing what is Cryptic's Plan-B game.  The fact that it's as good as it is has to be proof that somewhere these guys have some talent doing this.  And if CO is allowed to proceed to conclusion from this point, without the entire character creation system having to be redone from the ground up, I think we'll see an entirely different animal than what we got with CoX. 

Quote from: Dweomer Knight on March 18, 2008, 01:34:21 PM
Actually, I think CoH blows CoV out of the water in every conceivable way.  CoV is just a more linear, more repitative version of CoH with different dialogue where everything is shaded grey.  CoH is infinitely more replayble.

So you like doing hunt missions? And having to cross 5 zones to get to your mission? And having no real storyline to play with at all? CoV is CoH, only everything is fixed. The hunt missions are gone, the travel system is better, the contacts are much more fleshed out. Hell, you don't even hit the "linear" portion till 40, and you don't even have to do the patron contacts if you so choose.

I actually expect CO to borrow heavily from CoV, and practically not at all from CoH.

As for the fighting generic villains, it's not going to change in CO. You'll still have very few real villain fights. The Arch Nemesis thing sounds interesting, but you're still going to have to fight a few thousand Champion Brand Hellions to get to your next level. Plus you'll probably get the added bonus of farming specific mobs for that one helmet you'll need.

And I still believe they should have allowed people to gimp themselves. There are plenty of people who like to play weak toons, just as there are many who like to play over-powered monstrosities.

Oh as for this,

QuoteFor pete's sake, heroes can't even interact with a burning building in a manner true to the genre...superheroes with innate powers more than suitable for handling the situation are forced to get (and keep refilled) water cannons Super Mario style and particpate in an immersion breaking mini-game.

That's not quite true, people with ice based powers can put the fires out with them.

Quote from: Dr.Volt on March 18, 2008, 01:14:52 PM
I was reading somemore from the CO website.  I love the description of Millenium City: http://www.champions-online.com/worlds/millennium_city (http://www.champions-online.com/worlds/millennium_city)

It definitely has a Paragon City feel to it.  But then again, Paragon City doesn't have Viper Agents lurking about it's alleys! 

Speaking of Millenium City, this game was interesting enough that I looked into it.  I found this in Millenium City's wikipedia article:

QuoteMillennium City is set apart from other cities in the Champions universe due to its extremely advanced technology. The whole city is surrounded by "The Loop", an intelligent highway. Only cars equipped with Vehicle Control Chips (VCCs) can enter the city, by one of eight gateways, and then they are controlled by a central computer and shuttled to their destination. "Normal" cars are required to park at garages at the gateways and their owners commute or rent VCC-equipped vehicles to drive into the city.

So one computer (presumably owned and run by the city government) controls all of the motor vehicles in the city?  Is it just me, or is this idea completely insane?  You can't drive to the grocery without the government knowing exactly where you are.  It sounds like something out of 1984.  And if a hacker (or supervillain, considering the setting) got control of that thing, the possibilities are endless.  They could kill anyone they want by crashing their car, or if they're at home, by driving an 18-wheeler through their house.  They could prevent police from responding to crimes by stopping police cars in their tracks.  And if they're feeling really destructive, they could pick an important building and crash a dozen fuel tankers into it at once.

Maybe Champions is meant to have a more optomistic Silver-Age like feel, but still.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AM

So you like doing hunt missions? And having to cross 5 zones to get to your mission? And having no real storyline to play with at all? CoV is CoH, only everything is fixed. The hunt missions are gone, the travel system is better, the contacts are much more fleshed out. Hell, you don't even hit the "linear" portion till 40, and you don't even have to do the patron contacts if you so choose.

I actually expect CO to borrow heavily from CoV, and practically not at all from CoH.

As for the fighting generic villains, it's not going to change in CO. You'll still have very few real villain fights. The Arch Nemesis thing sounds interesting, but you're still going to have to fight a few thousand Champion Brand Hellions to get to your next level. Plus you'll probably get the added bonus of farming specific mobs for that one helmet you'll need.

And I still believe they should have allowed people to gimp themselves. There are plenty of people who like to play weak toons, just as there are many who like to play over-powered monstrosities.

Oh as for this,

QuoteFor pete's sake, heroes can't even interact with a burning building in a manner true to the genre...superheroes with innate powers more than suitable for handling the situation are forced to get (and keep refilled) water cannons Super Mario style and particpate in an immersion breaking mini-game.

That's not quite true, people with ice based powers can put the fires out with them.

In terms of how content is presented, I suspect you're right about borrowing from CoV.  But again, I hope they don't forsake the conventions of the genre in the process. 

And yeah, I forgot about ice powers...but still.  I know they can't implement flying ss/invul. tanks picking up water towers and dumping the contents on the building, but there has to be something better than that mini-game they have now.

Quote from: Dr.Volt on March 18, 2008, 09:51:56 AM

I have to say that I'm pretty stoked about this.  I've always enjoyed the Champions Universe.  For example, I was amused to read about "Stronghold" (the classic super prison) and that the most powerful character in there is "Mentor".  I remember that guy!!!  And I like Doctor D's new look.  As I recall Defender was initially a powered armored hero...this is definitely a new take for him.

I'm going to go dig out my old Champions characters and see if I can't replicate them.  Very exciting!

Does anyone know when CO is to be released and/or how much they plan to charge for it?

This got me thinking...I recently converted Lightning Bug and Triumph to 5th ed. Champions, and was thinking maybe we could post our character write-ups here to share with each other.  If we did, should we use this thread or start another one?

Quote from: Conduit on March 19, 2008, 12:45:17 PMSo one computer (presumably owned and run by the city government) controls all of the motor vehicles in the city?  Is it just me, or is this idea completely insane?  You can't drive to the grocery without the government knowing exactly where you are.  It sounds like something out of 1984.  And if a hacker (or supervillain, considering the setting) got control of that thing, the possibilities are endless.  They could kill anyone they want by crashing their car, or if they're at home, by driving an 18-wheeler through their house.  They could prevent police from responding to crimes by stopping police cars in their tracks.  And if they're feeling really destructive, they could pick an important building and crash a dozen fuel tankers into it at once.

Maybe in comics that sort of Utopian scheme is plausible? My initial reaction to it is the same as yours: it's Orwellian, ripe for abuse, and not likely to work as intended even without anyone deliberately using it to wreak havoc.

But, maybe that could be a story device to add some flavor to some missions or even be a periodic problem people have to deal with. E.g., the system breaks down and there is a need for heroes to deal with any number of civic problems, or a super villain takes over all or part of it and causes trouble...

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 19, 2008, 01:11:45 PM
This got me thinking...I recently converted Lightning Bug and Triumph to 5th ed. Champions, and was thinking maybe we could post our character write-ups here to share with each other.  If we did, should we use this thread or start another one?

It sounds like a fun project, though I don't have any access to Champions rulebooks.  (Unless they're online somewhere in pdf format, in which case I'd love for someone to point me in the right direction.)  Starting a new thread for such a project seems like the best idea to me - since the Champions Online game is practically certain to construct characters differently than the 5th edition rules, I wouldn't want to confuse the discussion in this thread.

Quote from: Viking on March 19, 2008, 01:33:44 PM

Quote from: Lightning Bug on March 19, 2008, 01:11:45 PM
This got me thinking...I recently converted Lightning Bug and Triumph to 5th ed. Champions, and was thinking maybe we could post our character write-ups here to share with each other.  If we did, should we use this thread or start another one?

It sounds like a fun project, though I don't have any access to Champions rulebooks.  (Unless they're online somewhere in pdf format, in which case I'd love for someone to point me in the right direction.)  Starting a new thread for such a project seems like the best idea to me - since the Champions Online game is practically certain to construct characters differently than the 5th edition rules, I wouldn't want to confuse the discussion in this thread.

If we do, let's use a new thread for it. We'd also probably be best off coming up with a standard "template" to use, otherwise we'd have to look at and interpret something like five or six different styles of sheets.

I also currently have no Champions books. I have an old copy of Fantasy Hero, first printing, copyright 1985 that's in near-mint condition, though, and the books for the Bubblegum Crisis game from the FUZION system (Hero system blended with the Cyberpunk 2020 / Mekton system)...

I haven't had any HERO system books in years...

I have a bunch of 4th ed stuff, but refuse to buy the grossly overpriced and shoddily printed and bound 5th ed rule book . . .

I am also very bummed about this game - because I won't be able to play.  Residency is not very kind to free time.  And unlike the last several years where I have been away at school, I will be at home and have many other demands on my time.  :(

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 20, 2008, 07:57:19 AM
I have a bunch of 4th ed stuff, but refuse to buy the grossly overpriced and shoddily printed and bound 5th ed rule book . . .

I am also very bummed about this game - because I won't be able to play.  Residency is not very kind to free time.  And unlike the last several years where I have been away at school, I will be at home and have many other demands on my time.  :(

Easy solution: Become an unpleasant, anti-social lout, to the point where you're fired from your job and your family kicks you out.

Then you'll have lots of time for Champions Online.

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 20, 2008, 07:57:19 AM
I am also very bummed about this game - because I won't be able to play.  Residency is not very kind to free time.  And unlike the last several years where I have been away at school, I will be at home and have many other demands on my time.  :(

This is precisely the reason I've chosen an unfulfilling and soul-crushing career in IT support...plenty of time for goofing off at work when demands at home won't permit. ;)

I've started the thread here in this forum.  Feel free to join in...

Also, those of you without Champions books can send one of us that has them some notes on your character and we can write them up...just a thought that might allow more people to participate. 

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AM
So you like doing hunt missions?

Hunt missions are okay as the occasional break from the 'Click glowie #1 million' missions.  And I get hunt missions in CoV too.  Not as often but they're still there.  Anything that breaks up the Click glowie missions is welcome in my book.  The only hunt mishes that are irritating are the ones you get before you're high enough level to travel relatively safely in the zone required.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMAnd having to cross 5 zones to get to your mission?

It would be more accurate to say that what bothers me is having to wait until lvl 14 to get my travel power and having to take a "pre" power to get it.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMAnd having no real storyline to play with at all?

That's a bummer no doubt.  Too bad it's just as much a bummer in CoV as in CoH.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMCoV is CoH, only everything is fixed.

No, it's CoH with less content but wittier dialogue (the best example I can remember is a Freak mish, can't remember which one, where two Freak minions have a fairly lengthy discussion, if you let them, about free will and predestination and what is actually means to be a Freak; they even mention Sartre).

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMThe hunt missions are gone,

They're not gone, just less frequent.  YMMV as to whether you think this is good or not.  I actually like the occasional hunt mission.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMthe travel system is better,

The travel system being "better" is more a function of the game being so linear rather than any actual improvement in how you travel.  Outside of the vet and bank mishes (on either side) I see no improvement on the travel system in any way.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMthe contacts are much more fleshed out.

The dialogues are often more witty and amusing if that's what you mean.  Otherwise I don't see much difference.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMHell, you don't even hit the "linear" portion till 40, and you don't even have to do the patron contacts if you so choose.

Uh, no.  The linear portion begins at level 1.  Your choice of first contact has no meaningful impact, you do the Snakes either way and you're referred to as the destined one either way.  My tech Mastermind had Willy Wheeler and then the Golden Roller as contacts.  My mutant dominator got the Golden Roller and then Willy Wheeler as contacts (just one example of many). *yawn*

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMI actually expect CO to borrow heavily from CoV, and practically not at all from CoH.

I don't expect them to borrow much from either and can think of no good reason for them to do so.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMAs for the fighting generic villains, it's not going to change in CO. You'll still have very few real villain fights.

Link to what you're basing this on, please.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMThe Arch Nemesis thing sounds interesting,

I agree.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMbut you're still going to have to fight a few thousand Champion Brand Hellions to get to your next level. Plus you'll probably get the added bonus of farming specific mobs for that one helmet you'll need.

Link to what you're basing this on, please.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMAnd I still believe they should have allowed people to gimp themselves. There are plenty of people who like to play weak toons, just as there are many who like to play over-powered monstrosities.

I agree.

Quote from: Verfall on March 19, 2008, 09:30:47 AMOh as for this,

QuoteFor pete's sake, heroes can't even interact with a burning building in a manner true to the genre...superheroes with innate powers more than suitable for handling the situation are forced to get (and keep refilled) water cannons Super Mario style and particpate in an immersion breaking mini-game.

That's not quite true, people with ice based powers can put the fires out with them.

You're highly specific example doesn't address the main point of his post which your quote doesn't fully cover.

Quote from: Lightning BugPart of CoH's problem for a player base like the one represented here is that there is a fundamental disconnect between the game world and what ostensibly are its 4-color roots.  As mentioned elsewhere, everything about AV encounters is wrong if you're looking for the most basic superhero genre convention...hero vs. villain battles.  Instead, the developers decided to create what is basically just another MMO, with scads of nameless foes standing around waiting to be defeated.  It shuns these conventions severely enough that a successful comic can't even be created based the CoX universe....in fact, read the final issues of the last failed attempt at a CoH comic and you'll see that the writers basically gave up trying to make the world make sense and broke the 4th wall, introducing game elements that make no sense in the context of a superhero story (I was appaled when the Freedom Phalanx discovered the badge on top of City Hall in Atlas Park).  While the backstory for the CoH universe is filled with really cool stuff that fits the genre perfectly, the present day Paragon City as presented to the gamer is essentially Generic MMO World 018 populated by superheroes with nothing left to do that fits the genre once they've saved the lady getting her purse stolen and stopped a gang from breaking into a warehouse/office building/car.  For pete's sake, heroes can't even interact with a burning building in a manner true to the genre...superheroes with innate powers more than suitable for handling the situation are forced to get (and keep refilled) water cannons Super Mario style and particpate in an immersion breaking mini-game. 

(Don't get me wrong...I love CoH and think it's a great game.  I just don't think it represents the genre well at all, and for players like us I think that makes a large difference in how much enjoyment we get out of it.)

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

Quote from: Lightning BugIn terms of the genre, CoV is even worse.

I agree.  Even Jack agrees.  In a recent interview he stated that their big mistake with CoV was not taking into account what players, as villains, would want to do in a villainous game.  This is why, again by his own admission, CoV added little to the subscription base for the game as a whole.

Quote from: ConduitMaybe Champions is meant to have a more optomistic Silver-Age like feel, but still.

I don't think of nuking Detroit out of existence as particularly optimitstic (unless you really hate Detroit :unsure:) but I think you're partially right.  My reading of it was that M. City was supposed to be the city the represents the "humanity at it's best" concept.  And there are hordes of heroes even apart from the Champion group themselves to ensure it stays that way.  I do agree that some ideas could have been developed/written up a bit better though.

DK

I'll dig out my Champions 4th edition hardback and see what I can come up with, but if I do a character sheet for GhostMachine, it'll be the Freedom Force version of the character rather than the CoH version.

And welcome back, LB. Still playing WoW and LoTR?

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 20, 2008, 09:14:06 AM
I'll dig out my Champions 4th edition hardback and see what I can come up with, but if I do a character sheet for GhostMachine, it'll be the Freedom Force version of the character rather than the CoH version.

And welcome back, LB. Still playing WoW and LoTR?

Hey GM :) 

Yeah, I still have active accounts, but I don't get to play much since the baby came.  I feel bad goofing off while Barbie takes care of her, so...hopefully as she gets older and we get into a routine there will be more time *crosses fingers*

Quote from: Dweomer Knight on March 20, 2008, 08:44:09 AM
Bunch of stuff.

I could do the point by point thing, but the pain of it would drive me batty.

All I'm seeing is you're in this weird minority who seems to be a CoX masochist.

As for my assumptions on CO, I make them based on the fact we're talking about an MMO. Regardless of the genre, regardless of what new systems they come up with, every MMO is either "kill this many mobs to level" or "mine this many fish to level". The odds of CO being any different in its core playstyle are practically nil. They may try, but in the end every game falls back on the "kill 500 hellions, than maybe fight a boss" style of MMO.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you people expect FF the MMO. It just won't happen. They need to cater to the grind crowd, because in the end they're the ones who end up playing 5 accounts and farming gold. Won't that be fun, CO is going to have loot right off the bat, and CoX players are already complaining about spammers, expect it tenfold in CO. We're spoiled by CoX in regards to a lot of MMO standards they managed to avoid to some degree, but everything I've read seems to show Cryptic is actually grabbing hold of those standards, since they've been proven to be guaranteed money. They basically want to make WoW the super hero game.

It's not going to be about new things, or revolutionary ideas, it's going to be "WoW in tights".

I'm calling it now.

Quote from: Verfall on March 20, 2008, 05:37:55 PM
It's not going to be about new things, or revolutionary ideas, it's going to be "WoW in tights".

I'm calling it now.

Either way would make me happy.  I wouldn't be happy with another CoX.

"WoW in tights" isn't an insult. WoW is a much, much better game than CoH. Not CoH's fault-- WoW has a budget bigger than the GDP of a small country.

WoW spends money perfecting things, and then CO can swipe them on the cheap.

Well, there is one way I can think of to break the grind (in a sense) but I'm not sure it's practical in any way, shape, or form and  not doable with today's technology at today's prices.

Extreme instancing.

In other words, not simultaneously sharing the game world with five to ten thousand of your neighbors.  If you could choose who you shared that game world with, which instance your hero occupies, when you logged on the experience could be made more flexible.  Spawns and rewards would scale according to how many folks were sharing the slice at any given moment and what levels they're at.

If you feel like soloing, you log into your own slice and interact with nobody but NPC's.  If you want to run with the same people all the time, you log into a slice that you all share.  If you want to PvP, you log into a slice that specifically enables it.  The number of people in the slice can be as big or as small as you like.

Each slice would be a collection of microcopies of the full game world, and you'd be able to set various attributes reflecting your play style when the slice was created.  You'd be able to switch between slices at logon, to any slice you've been 'invited' into.  For folks that want the full-on MMO PvE experience, there would be an Alpha slice that anyone can enter.  But in that case, the spawns would be consistent and the rewards at minimum.  In other words, the game would actually encourage playing in smaller slices where the challenges and rewards are greater.

Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming.  Not likely to happen anytime soon with a commercial-grade online game.  Hopefully CO will be a step in the right direction.

That's not Massively Multiplayer, that's just Multiplayer. That's how almost every non-MMO's multiplayer works-- one person hosts a game, the others join. You're all in the same world, and you exclude everybody else. Many of them will allow your character data to persist, so that as you join different servers with different people, you still progress normally.

It's a fun model, but it's not how MMOs work.

Quote from: captainspud on March 21, 2008, 07:38:17 AM
That's not Massively Multiplayer, that's just Multiplayer. That's how almost every non-MMO's multiplayer works-- one person hosts a game, the others join. You're all in the same world, and you exclude everybody else. Many of them will allow your character data to persist, so that as you join different servers with different people, you still progress normally.

It's a fun model, but it's not how MMOs work.

Essentially, yes.  I do break with the Multiplayer model in the sense that they generally don't scale up easily or well in the case of RPG.  And it would be possible to 'solo' in a multiplayer slice such that everyone online can work together or not as they feel like doing.  I'd like to see a slice of nobody but Reborners and their friends, for example.  That would be a fun game world.  Sort of like instanced zones in CoX, except you choose which instance you occupy instead of the server.

Like I said, probably not altogether practical.

Folks are complaining about the traditional MMO model of grinding, so I don't see any reason not to break tradition where possible. :)  I actually don't mind a little bit of grinding, but don't want to see that becoming the whole game.

Maybe the key is flexible encounters where the reward is based more on what you're doing than what you're fighting.  Grind happens because rewards are tied to kills/ko's more than objectives.  In a superhero game, the goal should be stopping the crime/protecting civilians.  Stopping bigger crimes or protecting more civilians leads to bigger rewards.  I don't think you can eliminate every form of grind and keep the game fun for everybody, but changing the terms of engagement might help it from getting too tiresome.

Also I agree with the idea that superhero games should avoid 'loot' in the traditional sense.  supervillain games on the other hand...

Quote from: captainspud on March 20, 2008, 07:02:16 PM
"WoW in tights" isn't an insult. WoW is a much, much better game than CoH. Not CoH's fault-- WoW has a budget bigger than the GDP of a small country.

WoW spends money perfecting things, and then CO can swipe them on the cheap.

WoW may be a better game than CoH (and that's debatable), but WoW has worse players than CoH. I've run into a few bad players in CoH, but most of them were either genuine idiots or noobs who hadn't learned how to play properly. Most of the bad players I ran into in WoW were genuine jerks, and the selfishness of players at higher levels is why I quit WoW. That's not a problem with CoH, since you don't really need a supergroup if you don't want one to advance but are pretty much screwed without a good high level guild once you get to 50 or so in WoW.

I miss my NE Hunter's archery skills and White Windserpent pet and my Gnome Warlock's engineering gadgets, but I don't really miss anything else from WoW - including the person who backstabbed me and the guild full of selfish jerks I was in.

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 22, 2008, 04:26:09 AM
WoW may be a better game than CoH (and that's debatable), but WoW has worse players than CoH. I've run into a few bad players in CoH, but most of them were either genuine idiots or noobs who hadn't learned how to play properly. Most of the bad players I ran into in WoW were genuine jerks, and the selfishness of players at higher levels is why I quit WoW. That's not a problem with CoH, since you don't really need a supergroup if you don't want one to advance but are pretty much screwed without a good high level guild once you get to 50 or so in WoW.

As I've said, I didn't find any of that to be the case. You just lucked out with a crappy guild.

Quote from: captainspud on March 22, 2008, 07:31:32 AM

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 22, 2008, 04:26:09 AM
WoW may be a better game than CoH (and that's debatable), but WoW has worse players than CoH. I've run into a few bad players in CoH, but most of them were either genuine idiots or noobs who hadn't learned how to play properly. Most of the bad players I ran into in WoW were genuine jerks, and the selfishness of players at higher levels is why I quit WoW. That's not a problem with CoH, since you don't really need a supergroup if you don't want one to advance but are pretty much screwed without a good high level guild once you get to 50 or so in WoW.

As I've said, I didn't find any of that to be the case. You just lucked out with a crappy guild.

I was in 3 different guilds in WoW; the first I quit due to the leader letting a member sexually harass another member over Teamspeak and went and formed a new guild with that member (the one being harassed, that is) and someone else, only to be stabbed in the back and unceremoniously kicked out of the guild for no good reason by the leader (who also happened to be the person being harassed in the previous guild) a few months later. (The reason they finally did give me was weak AND bs - they were told I had said something that I didn't by two people who had joined the guild only a few weeks before I was kicked out and never bothered to confront me or ask me about it, just dumped me and put me on ignore) The high level guild I joined after that was full of selfish jerks whose members wouldn't go out of their way to help anyone unless they got something out of it. And it was in the process of merging with another guild and becoming a hardcore raiding guild when I quit WoW. (Before that, the guild only held raids 2 to 3 times a week, and one of them would always been Molten Core) I knew from experience that most of the other guilds were like the one I was in and that I wouldn't be able to get into a decent one, so I said "screw it" and quit. And the sad thing is, I had gotten the leaf for the Hunter epic a couple weeks before I dropped out.

For almost three months, I was stuck on a part of the Onyxia Lair key quest chain, with guild leaders whining at me to complete it, yet no one offering to help, and the only PUGs I could find were always doing the part of the quest AFTER the one I needed to do (I needed to do the part before Jail Break). Never had any success organizing one for the part I needed, because most people on Whisperwind avoided Blackrock unless they were doing the Upper Spire.

I was in two guilds on WoW.  One sucked, the other was great.  I only quit WoW because I wanted to spend the money on something else.
I didn't have many issues with other players either.  I found that I could level fairly well soloing in WoW, but when i played CoH, even being part of a supergroup I couldn't do much without resorting to a PUG.
Different people will have different experiences with the games they play.  They will also view those experiences with a skewed perspective depending on what they like in their games and community.
Let's just hope Cryptic will apply everything they've learned from CoH and other (more successful) MMOs to create the best game CO can be.

The nicest thing about getting in on the ground floor of MMOs is that you can know people from the start. It's even better if you already know people getting in from also the start. Me, I usually come to games late, when the people I know who play it would have to way backtrack and the people I know who don't play it are never going to. I mean, I've had mostly bad pick up groups, but with the good ones... I never even saw those people again. And frankly, I don't like having to meet a ton of new people.

So hopefully this game'll work out better for me. Assuming it's actually a fun game.

Dang, GM...that sucks.  And I can't even say I understand because my experience in WoW has been great.  Outside of playing CoH with you guys (who I already knew) WoW has been the best game in terms of community that I've ever played.  Whether I got lucky or it's just my server or whatever, it really has been fantastic. 

One thing though...I don't think you can look at the intellectual property a game is based on (or even what it's primary game mechanics are going to be) and make sweeping judgements about the people who are going to play it.  For example, WoW gets a bad rep because it's WoW...however, 10 million people aren't playing it because it sucks.  It's just like Garth Brooks...no one wants to say anything nice about him or admit they own any of his CDs, yet if he records himself burping the ABCs it shoots to number and breaks sales records.  My point is, WoW is a phenomenal game, and because it's so awesome there is a larger spectrum of people occupying the game world at any given time.  Statistically this makes all types of encounters with other players less predictable and more varied.  But a good rule of thumb for me has been to play to have fun, and bugger anything else.  You tend to find exactly the type of people you're looking for in a huge online game like WoW...if you log on expecting to find a PuG full of sociapathic little 12-year-old antichrists, chances are you're going to find them.  As cheesy as it sounds, positive and fun is as positive and fun does.

Another sunny point for those who are terrified of Jack's hand in the game: it just sunk in when I was reading this (http://www.champions-online.com/node/39) that Jack isn't the lead designer on CO, he's the creative lead. Which means he's handling story, art, and other "fluff" considerations. The lead designer is the one who decides all the game mechanics, and that's a completely different guy.

Quote from: Conduit on March 19, 2008, 12:45:17 PM

Quote from: Dr.Volt on March 18, 2008, 01:14:52 PM
I was reading somemore from the CO website.  I love the description of Millenium City: http://www.champions-online.com/worlds/millennium_city (http://www.champions-online.com/worlds/millennium_city)

It definitely has a Paragon City feel to it.  But then again, Paragon City doesn't have Viper Agents lurking about it's alleys! 

Speaking of Millenium City, this game was interesting enough that I looked into it.  I found this in Millenium City's wikipedia article:

QuoteMillennium City is set apart from other cities in the Champions universe due to its extremely advanced technology. The whole city is surrounded by "The Loop", an intelligent highway. Only cars equipped with Vehicle Control Chips (VCCs) can enter the city, by one of eight gateways, and then they are controlled by a central computer and shuttled to their destination. "Normal" cars are required to park at garages at the gateways and their owners commute or rent VCC-equipped vehicles to drive into the city.

So one computer (presumably owned and run by the city government) controls all of the motor vehicles in the city?  Is it just me, or is this idea completely insane?  You can't drive to the grocery without the government knowing exactly where you are.  It sounds like something out of 1984.  And if a hacker (or supervillain, considering the setting) got control of that thing, the possibilities are endless.  They could kill anyone they want by crashing their car, or if they're at home, by driving an 18-wheeler through their house.  They could prevent police from responding to crimes by stopping police cars in their tracks.  And if they're feeling really destructive, they could pick an important building and crash a dozen fuel tankers into it at once.

Maybe Champions is meant to have a more optomistic Silver-Age like feel, but still.

Very, very interesting points regarding the possible Orwellian nature of Millenium City.  Hmmmmm....Mwhahahahahahahahahhahahaha!!!  Don't you think that has TONS of story line potential to it?  I hope the creators of CO pick up and use that aspect of the city.  Can you imagine the trusting do gooders with their Silver Age senses of right and wrong being shocked when the establishment turns on them???  Or, imagine how powerful a simple master hacker could be in such an environment???  It wouldn't matter how uber powerful a hero was...they would have to find the hacker first.  Oh, and we haven't even touched on the possibility of what if the AI that runs the city turns malevolent???  And you have the very real potential of Civil War'ish heroes fighting heroes (with those that back the establishment and those that are revolutionary).  Awesome!!!  This opens all kinds of possiblities!!

Quote from: Dr.Volt on March 26, 2008, 06:26:53 AM

QuoteSo one computer (presumably owned and run by the city government) controls all of the motor vehicles in the city?  Is it just me, or is this idea completely insane?  You can't drive to the grocery without the government knowing exactly where you are.  It sounds like something out of 1984.  And if a hacker (or supervillain, considering the setting) got control of that thing, the possibilities are endless.  They could kill anyone they want by crashing their car, or if they're at home, by driving an 18-wheeler through their house.  They could prevent police from responding to crimes by stopping police cars in their tracks.  And if they're feeling really destructive, they could pick an important building and crash a dozen fuel tankers into it at once.

Maybe Champions is meant to have a more optomistic Silver-Age like feel, but still.

Very, very interesting points regarding the possible Orwellian nature of Millenium City.  Hmmmmm....Mwhahahahahahahahahhahahaha!!!  Don't you think that has TONS of story line potential to it?  I hope the creators of CO pick up and use that aspect of the city.  Can you imagine the trusting do gooders with their Silver Age senses of right and wrong being shocked when the establishment turns on them???  Or, imagine how powerful a simple master hacker could be in such an environment???  It wouldn't matter how uber powerful a hero was...they would have to find the hacker first.  Oh, and we haven't even touched on the possibility of what if the AI that runs the city turns malevolent???  And you have the very real potential of Civil War'ish heroes fighting heroes (with those that back the establishment and those that are revolutionary).  Awesome!!!  This opens all kinds of possiblities!!

Yeah, like running cars into superheroes traveling down the street, causing massive crushing damage . . .

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 26, 2008, 07:09:20 AM
Yeah, like running cars into superheroes traveling down the street, causing massive crushing damage . . .

That ought to become a new feature in CoX.  The cars already hit us and bump us out of the way, they just don't do the proper amount of damage.

That would facilitate the ongoing mutation of CoH into FFvTTR, at least thematically:

1.  We have Nazi-ish soldiers
2.  We have time travel as of Ish 11 (and had interdimensional travel even before that...)
3.  Ish 12 will give us Roman soldiers

Man, add killer cars, dinosaurs, super-Soviets, and gun-toting gorillas and we're just about there!

QuoteSo one computer (presumably owned and run by the city government) controls all of the motor vehicles in the city?  Is it just me, or is this idea completely insane?  You can't drive to the grocery without the government knowing exactly where you are.  It sounds like something out of 1984.  And if a hacker (or supervillain, considering the setting) got control of that thing, the possibilities are endless.  They could kill anyone they want by crashing their car, or if they're at home, by driving an 18-wheeler through their house.  They could prevent police from responding to crimes by stopping police cars in their tracks.  And if they're feeling really destructive, they could pick an important building and crash a dozen fuel tankers into it at once.

I would like to point out that this sort of thing has been planned in real life for years.  Why?  Major reason is that it firstly reduces human error, allows for safe travel at much higher speeds and allows for the entire road system to plan around anything unforseen.  Several companies are working on something similar right now.  Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that the central computer knows which car is where, just that there is a car there.

Now back to your discussion.

Just wondering... is there any more info on this game that I don't have to read through their somewhat dull and unfamiliar forums to find?

Quote from: UnkoMan on April 17, 2008, 04:24:13 PM
Just wondering... is there any more info on this game that I don't have to read through their somewhat dull and unfamiliar forums to find?

You could always just click on Dev Tracker.  That usually takes you to the most important stuff right away.

Theres also this (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3167585)...

looks like i wasnt the only one that found out about this awsomeness game!

i got a question peeps do u have to pay for online also? i hope not!

Dear Jebus!
a game that has been descended from the heavens!! aahhh!!
i get chills from my spine by watching the trailer! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

we could make a superhero team called Freedom Reborn!!!

i got dreams baby!
[spoiler]Dreams![/spoiler]

Quote from: Raijin on April 27, 2008, 09:12:20 PM
i got a question peeps do u have to pay for online also? i hope not!
we could make a superhero team called Freedom Reborn!!!

1. Most definitely YES.
2. That is the intention.  FR has a thread in the team recruitment forum.

Quote from: Raijin on April 27, 2008, 09:12:20 PM
we could make a superhero team called Freedom Reborn!!!

Done (http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?board=40.0) and Done (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=563)!

But then it looks like you already found it  :thumbup:

so is that a yes to pay for its online?

Quote from: Pyroclasm on April 28, 2008, 03:41:54 AM

Quote from: Raijin on April 27, 2008, 09:12:20 PM
i got a question peeps do u have to pay for online also? i hope not!

1. Most definitely YES.

what?! whered u read this?

Quote from: Raijin on April 28, 2008, 06:32:53 PM
what?! whered u read this?

On their website.  It's a standard MMO.  You will have to buy the game and then pay a monthly fee.  Just like City of Heroes/Villains and countless other MMOs.

Because there has been no official announcement about monthly fees (the game is still in early development) there may not be much mention.  But Pyro is right, this is a big name, big development MMORPG and it will have at least a $10-15 monthly fee on top of the cost of the box (likely $50 new).

Quote from: Cryptic
How varied will the inhuman (beast-man, alien, etc.) costume piece/character looks options be in CO? (Amadaeus)

Arkayne: The amount of "inhuman" costume pieces and customization options is really impressive already! So far I've seen various beast-man heads (rats, cats, bears, wolves, stag), insect heads (with different mandible and antennae options), and various monster heads (undead/alien/demon with different sizing, horn/bone options, etc.). Additionally there are a number of different "stances" players can choose from (bestial stance, for example) to complete their "inhuman" look.

I can think of a certain Ursus arctos member that will be happy

That sounds great.  What I want to know is whether I can put wings on that beast from the onset.  I don't want to "earn my wings".  I guess Grizz will be able to make his avatar without worry.

This is the kind of thing I'd normally write a big wall of text about, but I'm not in the mood to (kinda tired), so I'll be brief:

I think Champions shot its load way too soon. They started the hype way too early, and as I worried, they haven't been able to keep it up. There hasn't been an exciting announcement out of them for over a month. And in the meantime, they've given NCSoft some warning and some details on what they're doing, giving their old coworkers plenty of time to copy and adapt.

CO's announcement and initial buzz has put new fire under the NCSoft team-- that game is being transformed. As things stood at the CO announcement, CO was going to make CoH its b***h. But CoH is making amazing leaps, closing the gaps with amazing speed.

I don't know what they were thinking-- starting a media blitz 18 months before the release of a game that has a direct competitor.

I'm sure CO's still going to be good, and I'm sure it'll do well. But I think the way they've gone about things has been a huge mistake. I don't know about you, but most of my blind enthusiasm has drifted away. I'm still interested, but no longer excited. CO had an opportunity to steal CoH's fanbase-- but instead of surprising us in the last three months of development with a sudden exposure of the game's awesomeness, they put a list of easily-copied features on the web, and their competitors look like they're going to ensure that any differences come launch time are minimal.

This mismanagement of their public face is going to mean the difference between the old possibility of wiping their competition out entirely, to the new reality of a grudging co-existence and painful war of attrition. Instead of stealing CoH's entire fanbase, CO's only going to get the ones with low levels of attachment; and let's face it, the fun players to play with are the ones with a HIGH level of attachment. If CoH continues to improve the way it has been, the old-timers and diehards are going to stay put, which is going to have a detrimental effect on the average CO population.

Or... I dunno. Maybe I'm just imagining things.

I wonder if the CO strategy isn't to make an announcement with some features that won't be especially hard for NCSoft to duplicate and then, later on, to announce features (maybe not long after CoX has "caught up" with the earlier features and not long before a CO public beta) that would require fairly major restructuring of CoX, features that effectively can't be tacked on. In other words, a later CO announcement could spotlight features that would essentially require a CoX2 from NCSoft. It seems like Cryptic would have a pretty good idea which new features could be tacked on and which ones would require a new game from the ground up. That way, there will be a huge fan base of CoX players, all of whom have heard of CO, badgering NCSoft about the new features and NCSoft won't have an answer. Meanwhile, Cyptic is across the street doing its fan dance...

I agree either way, though. They have revealed an awful lot too early in the game. And, even if they are thinking in terms of the idea I outlined above, they are giving NCSoft a lot of time to earn money toward developing CoX2. It almost seems that Cyptic was anxious to have a large group of players awaiting a beta, which is useful, but it's way too early for it. With all this time, NCSoft won't be sitting on its butt with regard to CoX2 and if that comes close to the CO release date (say CoX2 is in beta by then), Cyptic will have really shot itself in the foot because so many CoX players will be waiting to see what CoX2 is like before they switch over to CO or commit to $15/month for each.

Interesting posts, guys.

Something tells me, as Stumpy's post alludes to, that the CO team knows what they are doing. I don't think the other shoe has fallen, necessarily.

Quote from: vamp on May 02, 2008, 02:01:17 PM

Quote from: Cryptic
How varied will the inhuman (beast-man, alien, etc.) costume piece/character looks options be in CO? (Amadaeus)

Arkayne: The amount of "inhuman" costume pieces and customization options is really impressive already! So far I've seen various beast-man heads (rats, cats, bears, wolves, stag), insect heads (with different mandible and antennae options), and various monster heads (undead/alien/demon with different sizing, horn/bone options, etc.). Additionally there are a number of different "stances" players can choose from (bestial stance, for example) to complete their "inhuman" look.

I can think of a certain Ursus arctos member that will be happy

Yes, yes he will be. Also in a screenshot in my game informer magazine I noticed a superhero about to be attacked by several different lycanthropes with two very large werebears in the back.

Quote from: Pyroclasm on May 02, 2008, 02:42:57 PM
That sounds great.  What I want to know is whether I can put wings on that beast from the onset.  I don't want to "earn my wings".  I guess Grizz will be able to make his avatar without worry.

I haven't seen any winged characters as of yet, nor have I seen anyone with a cape yet either. The closest thing I can think of to anything like that is a villainous character they confirmed to be in the game that was four arms and is named Grond.

Now if only the monstrous heads can actually wear some head accessories! I'd settle for a pair of glasses or goggles at least!

I've stated this elsewhere but my "excitement" for CO has wained since CoH has been upping their game.

-MJB

Well, there will be others who got bored with CoH/V and want to get in at the beginning of a new MMO.  Those guys will either play both or switch.

Me, I'm on the fence.  The announced Accuracy buff they're calling 'Beginner's Luck' along with the announced leveling buff will help reduce the low-level grind (if it makes it into Live).  That and powerset-proliferation may hold my interest.  I do know that I won't be paying two subscription fees, so whichever MMO wow's me (pardon the pun) will be the one that gets my money.

Sorry for the not-reading of the whole thread if its been given, but I was wondering if anyone knows of even a ballpark release date. I couldn't find anything about it on the site.

Spring '09. May, I think.

Quote from: captainspud on May 07, 2008, 11:41:58 AM
Spring '09. May, I think.

Well you just argued with yourself, which is the best kind of arguement IMO.  One year is plenty of time to trickle information as it becomes available.  And i really should have emboldened the last phrase of the previous sentence (but im feeling tired, waaahh).  There is plenty of marketing fodder still to come, and I have to assume that was CO's plan to make a big entrance and then keep pleasing with what they deem to be quality content.  But really, was the so called inital media blitz, really that.  I don't recall that much; i heard about it here on a forum dedicated to both superheroes and an MMOG (a superhero MMOG at that!), they had a website for info and forums.  Perhaps i live under a virtual rock, and missed the mass media advertisements, or maybe you are blowing CO's entrance out of propotion.  The point is you can dog their strategy all you want now.  Any strategy is proven by it outcome.

Don't get ME wrong tho.  I'm not all for CO and dont seek to defend it.  Im interested in it mainly cuz of the migration potential of you - yes spud just you - pffft, no really, if everyone here is going over to CO when it comes out Im all for it.  But im not a big fan of the cell shaded type graphics, and personally i have a yen for something other than doing superheroes again for content.  Now Conan has some pontential in the content realm, sounds a bit too PvP oriented and twitch gamey for me, but some things can be overlooked.  LOTRO had me at first the same reason SWG did, but imo failed in the same right (tho not as drastically and suddenly).  GW is moderately interesting in terms of lore, some of the free MMOGs out there are kinda neat but frustratingly buggy.  Oh and hey, Pirates of the Carribean Online rocks (not free tho after a week), i definetly recommend the sailing combat portion.

But back OT, if your agenda is to defend CoX then why arent you playing it.  If you are just dogging CO, then you, like your claim against them, have jumped the gun.  If you are just being the precious Spud that we know and love, then good thats why i sat down to write.

I reiterate a point from long ago...

well in this thread...

I want to punch a dinosaur.

Seriously...

I want to punch it right on it's scaly nose or kneecap depending on the size of said beast.

If somehow I get to punch a dinosaur in COX I would *IMMEDIATELY* reactivate my account to have access to such glorious beatings of giant reptile lizard growly bitey things!

Ok now we know champions is coming out and soom maybe dc on line though everything is hush hush from them.So now we going to have 3 superhero online games hmm i wonder who will come out the winner it looks like a good old fashion tripple threat wrestling match.May the best game win.

Wasn't DC Online cancelled?

I thought it was the Marvel one that was cancelled.  IIRC the DC one was just really hush hush.

Quote from: Camma on May 08, 2008, 07:48:11 AM
I thought it was the Marvel one that was cancelled.  IIRC the DC one was just really hush hush.

Probably very suck suck as well.

too much reading,
i'm hoping to get a aura around ur character y'know?
like putting a electric aura.
i hope the effects are pretty sweet.
maybe they might put in healing factor in it. :thumbup:

one thing to remeber about the CO team is they have a pretty good idea of what the COH engine can be modified to do short of a major overhaul. I'm sure CoH can be stretched to some of the features they've been anouncing but the CO engine will be able to do them better and with more depth.
Also as launch approaches i'd be willing to bet the announcments pick up in speed and size :).
All in all i'm happy its spurred on the CoH team to all the new devlopments and i'm hoping they in turn will light a fire under teh Co devs, a little competition is often good for consumers :).

Let's hope they put capes and wings in as well in time for the launch.  Gotta have capes and wings!

I for one am in no way burnt out on supers as game content.  And again, I excited about the possibility of seeing reinterpretations of old classic Champions stanby NPCs like Dr. Destroyer, Defender, Icicle, Green Dragon, etc.  I heard mention, btw, that Dr. Silverback is going to be a major NPC in the game...which is way cool!!  Well, admittedly I'm biased as a long time paper and dice Champions player.  Many good times were had then I'll tell you!!  And I'm hoping to recapture some of the glory of those by gone days.  And yet, I accept that this game will be only loosely based on the previous game system.  But either way I think it's gonna rock!

Hey, I think somebody in this thread noted that Cryptic's official CO forum is pretty lame.  Well I found another forum that is semi official (in that it is administrated by the fine folks at Hero Games) and seems decidedly better.  Check it out for youselves if you like:  http://www.herogames.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57 (http://www.herogames.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57)

What do you think???

oh man once this game comes out i'm gonna be busy, dragonball online now this! :thumbup:

Everyone should read the latest CO Dev Blog (http://www.champions-online.com/dev_blog/evolution_of_game_design_rethinking_archetypes).

The important bit:

QuoteLet's talk about archetypes with regards to evolving game designs in Champions Online. Earlier on in the design of Champions Online we discussed how archetypes such as Brick, Energy Projector, etc., filled certain roles in the Champions universe and how each archetype gained bonuses to powers typical of their role. Power selection wasn't restricted by archetype – archetypes just provided bonuses to certain types of powers. The idea was to break the "class" mold prevalent in so many other MMOs while still providing some guidance for players who were new to the superhero genre or new to gaming. However, when we discussed this briefly in one of the Cryptic Q&A sessions, the prevailing reaction by the community was strongly against any type of archetype bonuses whatsoever, no matter how small. Many people pointed to the "total customization" experience touted for Champions Online, and how making archetype distinctions effectively restricted power choice by creating optimum and non-optimum groupings of powers.

Collectively, the Champions Online community made us re-evaluate our initial game design with regards to archetypes. Considering our open power selection system, did we really need archetype bonuses? One of our vision goals was to provide a very flexible powers system to players that they can play with to their heart's content – why put impediments to this goal by adding in archetypes? We took the community feedback to heart and went back to the drawing board. We asked ourselves, would it be possible to create an open character creation system that still solved the same problems that character classes did? You'll need to stay tuned for the results!

I hope they can make it work w/o archetypes.  A well-designed point-buy system should make character creation a lot of fun, and ultimately encourage good character design - it's really easy to nerf a character by trying to be too much - jack of all trades kind of thing.

Could it be? An FF-style power selection in an MMO?!   :thumbup:

Interesting. Certainly, the veterans of pen-and-paper Champions will love it. But will there be some kind of system in place to keep the noobs from totally gimping themselves? I can see a lot of frustrated players quitting early on if there isn't. Not everyone who plays these games is a hardcore min-maxer.

Quote from: JKCarrier on May 23, 2008, 10:55:19 PM
Interesting. Certainly, the veterans of pen-and-paper Champions will love it. But will there be some kind of system in place to keep the noobs from totally gimping themselves? I can see a lot of frustrated players quitting early on if there isn't. Not everyone who plays these games is a hardcore min-maxer.

Most likely they will have prebuilt power sets available to players at the start as well. So that if you have no idea what you are doing you can just pick one and go on about your business without getting frustrated or gimped early on. It would also let newer players see how a fully built character power list would look like to get an idea of what they would like to do. I would also imagine you could modify these templates as well, for some characters it might even be quicker to modify a template than to actually start from scratch.

Wow.

I have no doubt that CO is going to feature a system with free choice and selection with no bonuses or penalties based on class.  Sure, they may offer sets as a guidance for players so they don't gimp themselves or people who want to make matching stuff easy (like for costumes), but it'll be an option and a choice not a requirement.

In no way can I see them mentioning this for ANY other reason other than it coming to be.  I have little faith in Jack at times, but in no way can him, the devs or the company as a whole even mention or tease this without it coming back to bite them in the tuckus if its not a possibility.  I think they've all learned that lesson long ago when it came to CoX.

While I wouldn't say CO just stole CoX's thunder concerning the release of Issue 12, I think they certainly got people talking about them again.

RTT

CO has announced that they will have a playable demo at Gencon Indy in August, as well as at PAX.

On the CO forums, a member of the Cryptic Studios team just posted, and I quote; "There will indeed be capes and other accessories available at character creation, not just as "unlockables." (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=150388#post150388)"

I had a feeling that those who were concerned about the lack of capes in the images that have been released so far were worrying over nothing...

It has been confirmed that weapons and such will also be available at creation, right?  Methinks that the Rogue wouldn't be himself without his trusty saber.  I have to say, this game is still appealing to me....

As I said in the DC online game... without weapons they are pretty much showing themselves to be not quite as good as the competetors. Since they claim high customization it is ridiculous to think there wouldn't be weapons, although the only ones seen so far are shoulder mounted guns and dual light sabres.

They probably won't have chemical filled gumballs though. I do have a couple weapon weilding characters whom I was planning to make but, as with their CoX counterparts, the costumes will probably be incredibly watered down. This makes me wonder if I should bother or just create all new characters to go with this paticular game.

My CoH characters are roughly 90% inspired by the game (costumes, powers, etc) and 10% characters I had created for Freedom Force or other projects.  I suspect CO will inspire a whole new wave of characters.

The more the game engine allows for players to bring their own imagined powers to life (i.e. a believable attack named "Chemical-Filled Gumballs"), the greater CO's success will be.

EC

A new gameplay trailer is available along with a preview article from Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/championsonline/news.html?sid=6193627&tag=topslot;title;1)

Quick Edit: A lot more coverage of various aspects of the game can be found on the Champions front page (http://www.champions-online.com/node/95) with links throughout to each article, along with a quick summation of the the contents of each.

I have to say, I love the idea of a gamepad centered playstyle.  I never really cared for the way that most MMO's handle control of your character.  I would really enjoy playing a game that had a greater element of skill, as well as the standard reliance on strategy.  However, what I really want, and apparently it will be in DC Universe Online, is the ability to interact with the environment in a similar fashion to FF.  In short, I want to throw a car at the bad guys.

http://www.champions-online.com/node/142

BETA!

As pumped as I am... My current computer can't handle this. And I have no idea how to set up that parallel desktop thing on my mac.

Quote from: UnkoMan on October 14, 2008, 04:03:33 PM
As pumped as I am... My current computer can't handle this. And I have no idea how to set up that parallel desktop thing on my mac.

In all honesty I would sign up anyway, if you got in you could give away your beta key for fun & prizes! Or something...

plus you'd have nearly a month to figure out the parallel desktop thing on your mac if need be. If memory serves they aren't selecting anyone until November.

Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on October 14, 2008, 06:03:52 PM
In all honesty I would sign up anyway, if you got in you could give away your beta key for fun & prizes! Or something...

The email when you apply specifically states that the invites are not transferable, not that could or would stop anyone.

If anyone gets accepted to the current late stage alpha or the upcoming closed beta, there should already be a Freedom Reborn thread in the forum for meeting up in-game.

when i saw it, i went BAM. i signed up for it like super speed.

Any word when invites are going to be sent?

-MJB

If any of you get chosen that would be very exciting!  And if you do, it would be great to hear occasional reports about your experiences with CO. 

Quote from: Dr.Volt on October 22, 2008, 07:39:18 AM
And if you do, it would be great to hear occasional reports about your experiences with CO. 

Anybody accepted into the beta would be under a non-disclosure agreement; they would not be allowed to tell us a single thing that goes on inside the game, and would likely not even be allowed to admit they're in it.

Quote from: captainspud on October 22, 2008, 10:37:18 AM

Quote from: Dr.Volt on October 22, 2008, 07:39:18 AM
And if you do, it would be great to hear occasional reports about your experiences with CO. 

Anybody accepted into the beta would be under a non-disclosure agreement; they would not be allowed to tell us a single thing that goes on inside the game, and would likely not even be allowed to admit they're in it.

Wait a minute... how did YOU know that? YOU'RE A BETA TESTER SPUD ADMIT IT AND DISCLOSE DETAILS!!!!!!!

Quote from: BWPS on October 22, 2008, 11:26:22 AM

Quote from: captainspud on October 22, 2008, 10:37:18 AM

Quote from: Dr.Volt on October 22, 2008, 07:39:18 AM
And if you do, it would be great to hear occasional reports about your experiences with CO. 

Anybody accepted into the beta would be under a non-disclosure agreement; they would not be allowed to tell us a single thing that goes on inside the game, and would likely not even be allowed to admit they're in it.

Wait a minute... how did YOU know that? YOU'RE A BETA TESTER SPUD ADMIT IT AND DISCLOSE DETAILS!!!!!!!

Maybe... because that's how every other commercial game company on the planet does it...?

Quote from: BlueBard on October 22, 2008, 04:00:30 PM

Quote from: BWPS on October 22, 2008, 11:26:22 AM

Quote from: captainspud on October 22, 2008, 10:37:18 AM

Quote from: Dr.Volt on October 22, 2008, 07:39:18 AM
And if you do, it would be great to hear occasional reports about your experiences with CO. 

Anybody accepted into the beta would be under a non-disclosure agreement; they would not be allowed to tell us a single thing that goes on inside the game, and would likely not even be allowed to admit they're in it.

Wait a minute... how did YOU know that? YOU'RE A BETA TESTER SPUD ADMIT IT AND DISCLOSE DETAILS!!!!!!!

Maybe... because that's how every other commercial game company on the planet does it...?

True.  But yeah, I'm thinkin' Spud's a beta tester!  :P

So, ok, I totally get the non-disclosure thing.  But can you at least share generalities (like it's really awesome or it's not so great?)?

As I said, non-disclosure agreements generally forbid testers from acknowledging their participation during the beta period-- so no, a tester could not tell you if it's good or not, as that would be acknowledging that they're a tester.

And for the record: no, I'm not a beta tester (yet). I don't think they've done any invitations yet.

Quote from: captainspud on October 22, 2008, 06:19:42 PM
As I said, non-disclosure agreements generally forbid testers from acknowledging their participation during the beta period-- so no, a tester could not tell you if it's good or not, as that would be acknowledging that they're a tester.

And for the record: no, I'm not a beta tester (yet). I don't think they've done any invitations yet.

Well, disclosure or not...hope you get in on it m8!

Well guys I signed in for the Beta wish me luck I get in  :D .

this was previewed on X-play in depth and even had a few minutes of actual gameplay shown on air. I'll post a link later when it's actually online.

Check it:
Champions Hand on part 1 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/previews/35346/Hands_On_Champions_Online_Part_One.html)
Champions Hand on part 2 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/previews/35353/Hands_On_Champions_Online_Part_Two.html)

Thanks for sharing this Pre :blink:

Obviously this is an early look, but I'd say the DC game looks WAY better as of now.

Interesting - I like the fact that it will be avail on XBox.  Also very intrigued by the fact that console gamers and PC gamers could interact in the same worlds.

Hmm

It looks pretty interesting. It kind of has an X-Men Legends vibe, which works. I'm just hoping it's not so "button mash arcade-y". The graphics look great so far, as does the character creation menu. Spring 2009, huh? Probably May or April. All I want to know is how much it's going to cost per month. ^_^

I hope it is a button masher personally with Zero target lock on - That would make playing PvP alot more exciting & hardcore unlike in CoX where if i fire a power at someone & they try to go around a corner or superspeed away from me the power just follows them around the corner or half a mile away to catch the speedster - This way if you fire a blast & your opponet dodges, leaps out of the way or runs behind terrain then the power is missed or blocked - I also noticed a blocking manuver which is awesome & would help out against heavy hitters then give me a chance to come back with a combo of my own - Just guessing here but i'll bet that every melee or ranged attack you have can be charged (*ala* the hulk game on the 360) to deliver different strengths of damage to the attack - Anyway I still think that the DC & Champions game have there work cut out for them if they ever hope to deliver the Thrills of the best game ever made CoX :blink:

Quote from: electro on December 07, 2008, 04:28:26 PM
I hope it is a button masher personally with Zero target lock on - That would make playing PvP alot more exciting & hardcore unlike in CoX where if i fire a power at someone & they try to go around a corner or superspeed away from me the power just follows them around the corner or half a mile away to catch the speedster - This way if you fire a blast & your opponet dodges, leaps out of the way or runs behind terrain then the power is missed or blocked - I also noticed a blocking manuver which is awesome & would help out against heavy hitters then give me a chance to come back with a combo of my own - Just guessing here but i'll bet that every melee or ranged attack you have can be charged (*ala* the hulk game on the 360) to deliver different strengths of damage to the attack - Anyway I still think that the DC & Champions game have there work cut out for them if they ever hope to deliver the Thrills of the best game ever made CoX :blink:

Yeah, I hear you there, Electro. I'm looking forward to actual dodging/hiding. I just hope that pulling off attacks isn't mind-numbingly easy.

They don't have to do away with auto targeting, per se, just allow for reasonable exceptions to it.  If I run around a corner before the sniper fires his attack (as opposed to just initiating it), then it should miss.  You can still miss in CoX, it's just that the to-hit calculation takes place the instant you trigger the power and doesn't account for the actions of the target.

I'm not personally a big fan of the "twitch targeting" concept.  I play these games because I like to make believe I'm someone who is stronger, more agile, more capable than the person I am in real life.  If a game is going to accurately reproduce my spazzy trigger finger and lack of hand-eye coordination then it won't really be any fun for me to play.

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on December 07, 2008, 07:12:10 PM
They don't have to do away with auto targeting, per se, just allow for reasonable exceptions to it.  If I run around a corner before the sniper fires his attack (as opposed to just initiating it), then it should miss.  You can still miss in CoX, it's just that the to-hit calculation takes place the instant you trigger the power and doesn't account for the actions of the target.

I'm not personally a big fan of the "twitch targeting" concept.  I play these games because I like to make believe I'm someone who is stronger, more agile, more capable than the person I am in real life.  If a game is going to accurately reproduce my spazzy trigger finger and lack of hand-eye coordination then it won't really be any fun for me to play.

Oh I'm with you.  If my character is only as fast I am...that's not very realistic as to being a true super.  And while we are on the subject, games that require tons of button mashing get old.  Where's the strategy in that?  Well, CO still appears to be the game to watch, imho.  It should be interesting to hear what kind of reports the beta testing and further reviews produce.