Just thought I'd post some post Secret Invasion Avengers info for those interested.
New Avengers will by written by Brian Bendis with Billy Tan on art. Nothing official on lineup or direction, but a cover image was released:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/1002/newavengers48.jpg
Bendis has disputed that this is the lineup, but the cover shows:
Ronin (Clint Barton)
Luke Cage
Captain America (Bucky Barnes)
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Mighty Avengers will be written by Dan Slott with Khoi Pham on art starting on issue 21 I think. Again nothing official on lineup or direction other than that it will include Jocasta, another character from Avengers: The Initiative, and a founding Avenger. However, this image was released and it is likely the first three interlocking covers of Mighty Avengers:
http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/mycupojoe/week027/img/SecretProject.jpg
Going by this the team seems to be:
Scarlett Witch
unknown character suspected to be either Dr. Pym or Noh Varr
Jocasta
Iron Man
unknown character whose drawing is very rough. Possibly USAgent, Captain America or Major Victory
Hercules
Hulk or Rulk
Vision
Stature
Avengers: The Initiative will be written by Chritos Gage solo after Secret Invasion, no word on artist yet. He's said to be continuing with plots developed by him and Slott.
EDIT: Current solicits show the new artist to be Huberto Ramos.
Dark Avengers will be a new series by Brian Bendis and I believe Dave Finch. Again no information is available. It's possible the series will focus on Bendis' Evil Illuminati which seems to include Sub-Mariner, Dr. Doom, Emma Frost, Loki, the Hood and the Red Skull.
EDIT: The artist is Mike Deodato.
Bendis's books generally don't interest me.
Avengers: The Initiative though has become one of my favorite comics and Slott one of my favorite writers between that and Amazing Spider-Man so I'm excited for his Mighty Avengers run. Especially if Vision and Stature are going to on the team.
A little worried that A:TI might take a step back without Slott but Gage has been good working with Slott so hopefully it stays strong. I'm really sad that Stefano Caselli is moving to Secret Warriors though. Loved his art. I hope his replacement is good.
Hmmmm...If Mr Slott is writing Wanda/Scarlet Witch...I hope he can repair the damage done to the character by Bendis. I do not envy the person that has to clean up that mess.
Dana
Quote from: Podmark on October 17, 2008, 10:46:26 PM
Dark Avengers will be a new series by Brian Bendis and I believe Dave Finch. Again no information is available. It's possible the series will focus on Bendis' Evil Illuminati which seems to include Sub-Mariner, Dr. Doom, Emma Frost, Loki, the Hood and the Red Skull.
Despite the terrible title name, it sounds awesome. An "evil" Illuminati consisting of the characters you mentioned above is a darn fine premise for a book.
So both artist and writer are leaving The Initiative? That sucks. But, Slott on Mighty sounds pretty appealing. Caselli going to Secret Warriors isn't too shabby either. I have high hopes for that title. What are the sales numbers on Avengers:TI? It's hard to understand why Marvel would break up a good thing unless it wasn't selling.
As for New Avengers, idk. Bendis just shoulders too much weight at Marvel. If he just wrote 2-3 titles a month instead of 10 I think we'd see more quality from him.
Anyways, thanks for the info Pod. I haven't been paying much attention to the comic news sites lately so I'm a little in the dark. :unsure:
Quote from: murs47 on October 17, 2008, 11:49:39 PM
So both artist and writer are leaving The Initiative? That sucks. But, Slott on Mighty sounds pretty appealing. Caselli going to Secret Warriors isn't too shabby either. I have high hopes for that title. What are the sales numbers on Avengers:TI? It's hard to understand why Marvel would break up a good thing unless it wasn't selling.
The thing is that Dan Slott has admitted he can only write about 2 books a month, and he was given the opportunity to write Mighty which is one of Marvel's top tier books so he couldn't turn it down. And obviously he wasn't going to leave Spider-Man, so A:TI had to go. It was probably made an easier decision with Gage who's been co-writing for a while now is taking over.
As for sales numbers I don't know for sure, but I don't think the book was in any danger of cancellation. It sells in the 50k area before Secret Invasion which is similar to Invincible Iron Man and Ultimate Spider-Man. However I expect a drop when Slott leaves. It's also above Thunderbolts, I think it's in pretty good shape.
I'm fairly excited about Slott's Mighty Avengers. It sounds like the kind of Avengers book that's been missing from comics since Busiek left the book. Slott's the kind of writer who I'd expect would "get" the Avengers. I was a big fan of Busiek's Avengers as well as some of the old 60's and 70's stories and based on interviews Slott's run sounds a lot like that. I wish it had a more "oldschool" artist though. Someone closer to the George Perez camp. I'm a bit biased because I don't really like Khoi Pham's art, but I think that kind of Avengers book should have a more traditional artist who's closer to the storytelling side of the storytelling-stylistic scale.
Scarlet Witch, Jocasta and Vision in, Bendis out? Mighty A. sounds interesting.
What? Are the effects of Civil War are still canon?
It's already been a year!
Quote from: BWPS on October 18, 2008, 07:42:09 AM
What? Are the effects of Civil War are still canon?
It's already been a year!
yuh...it never wasn't canon. *blink*
Quote from: Previsionary on October 18, 2008, 08:11:29 AM
Quote from: BWPS on October 18, 2008, 07:42:09 AM
What? Are the effects of Civil War are still canon?
It's already been a year!
yuh...it never wasn't canon. *blink*
Indeed, it's not Canon. They make cameras, not comics. :o
But anyways, another post SC title that looks promising is Thunderbolts. Marvel picked up Andy Diggle to write it. I haven't read his run on Hellblazer. But, Green Arrow:Year One and his maxi-series, The Losers, were top notch. Not sure if they announced an artist yet.
I'll be a lot more interested in the Avengers, Spider-man, X-men, and Ms. Marvel if they ride this event out and let everything cool for almost a year (ok...three/four months). It's hard for me to care about SI in general (ONE DAY INVASIONS ROXXXOOOORRRRZZZZ) because of how Bendis plotted it; the last thing I need is another event after an event during the aftermath. And for the love of gravy, please let it be better than the aftermath of Messiah Complex and OMD/BND (not saying BND doesn't hold its charms, but I am not a fan of uber slow moving plots with more plots being padded on. 3 issues a month for twelve months= 36. Because of the change of format/releases, they actually need to change their plot formula so that there's a bit more payoffs inside of long term stories/plots to remove the feeling of "dragged-on-ness".)
Slott writing Mighty Avengers interests me, but I think Dark Avengers sounds dumb.
*yawn* More of Marvels butchering their IP. At this rate, I may be buying no Marvel comics at all soon.
The universe needs a good reboot.
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 18, 2008, 05:40:19 PM
The universe needs a good reboot.
Reboots are the reasons I don't read DC comics. How can I possibly become attach to characters whose origins, names, powers, and even characterization (I'm talking about the Big Three here) have changed at least 3 times in my life-time. As someone who grew up in the 90s with a plethora of characters I loved (90's LOS, Superboy (Conner Kent), Kyle Rayner, Linda Danvers as Supergirl, etc, etc) I have no interest in an universe where these characters do not exist or are being assassinated to make way for the newest rebooted version of the character (Wondy seen as a "murder" for protecting the world from a mind-controlled Superman, really? The acid-trippy and insanely large Bat-Universe shrinking and expanding every other day, first Superman is the only Kryptonian now there are hundreds but they are all evil besides 5 and two of these 5 good Kryptonian is an alternate-reality version from Earth-2 that does not exist and the other is angst-ridden teenager whose origin story changed twice since she appear in 2005). Yeah, that is really the universe I want to read about. You can't even keep up with DC anymore because too much is going on and they are trying their best to make it all happen in the same world and don't get me started on what they did to Wildstorm*.
*
I am bitter, I am aware of this.Wow, am I only one who is excited but the Dark Illuminati (more female Loki), Mighty's new lineup and New's direction?
It is weird but a lot of people hate Bendis because of his choices in the Avengers titles but honestly I never read an Avengers title (let alone 6 titles) consistently from month to month. If not for Bendis I would have no interest in the Avengers especially with the Ultimates being sacrificed to the overly dramatic and confusingly drawn gods (why are the Ultimates in their old costumes in UltSpidey but this awful 616-like costumes in Ultv3?).
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 20, 2008, 08:59:07 AM
Wow, am I only one who is excited but the Dark Illuminati (more female Loki), Mighty's new lineup and New's direction?
Nope, there's a couple more of us here. :D
It's interesting that you bring up female Loki. That's a character I look at and think, gee, it's too bad they took Loki and changed him to be a female character-cliche.
I'm excited about Mighty Avengers, because I think Dan Slott writes a better superhero team book than Bendis - Avengers: The Initiative has been great. I don't hate Bendis, but while his Avengers titles might be popular, I don't think they're particularly good. I think his best work is still Alias and the character work in Ultimate Spidey.
Quote from: Talavar on October 20, 2008, 09:49:04 AM
It's interesting that you bring up female Loki. That's a character I look at and think, gee, it's too bad they took Loki and changed him to be a female character-cliche.
How so?
I dislike Bendis on avengers because of his writing ticks. I want you to read the last few New avenger books with Tigra in them and then I want you to count how many times she screams, "AIEEEEE!" as she gets beaten up. :P
Also, all his characters start to read the same to me in his Avenger books and they don't always have the best stories. Ultimate Spidey is different because he doesn't have to deal with 7+ different personalities with a huge fan following. He works well on Spidey and that's probably because he's the only one to really touch ult. Spidey. Doesn't mean he doesn't test my patience at times (Ultimate Origins). ^^
As for Ultimates...depends on the timeline. Does the Ult. Spidey story happen before, after, or during Ult. 3?
I somewhat love to hate Femloki, but I also see where Talavar is coming from. We have Ms. Sinister, Lady Bullseye, She-Kraven, and FemLoki. It's a trend I really don't want pushed much further.
Nurse Doom? Magneta, Mistress of Magnetism? The Pink Skull? The Queenpin?
Quote from: daglob on October 20, 2008, 11:32:36 AM
Nurse Doom? Magneta, Mistress of Magnetism? The Pink Skull? The Queenpin?
The Womandarin!
Quote from: daglob on October 20, 2008, 11:32:36 AM
Nurse Doom? Magneta, Mistress of Magnetism? The Pink Skull? The Queenpin?
I would religiously buy any title that had Victor Von Doom as a male nurse, struggling to get by in a busy New York hospital.
Let us never forget Ultron As Tony Stark As A Bare Nekkid Lady.
That was genius.
I can't believe people get paid for this stuff.
Slott will get my readership on Mighty, but he's been quite the loyal company man of late, so I doubt we will actually get any of Bendis' "innovations" undone by him, unfortunately. I can hardly believe it's already been a hundred years since I used to look forward to any Avengers comics...
Quote from: tommyboy on October 20, 2008, 12:19:54 PM
Let us never forget Ultron As Tony Stark As A Bare Nekkid Lady.
That was genius.
I can't believe people get paid for this stuff.
Slott will get my readership on Mighty, but he's been quite the loyal company man of late, so I doubt we will actually get any of Bendis' "innovations" undone by him, unfortunately. I can hardly believe it's already been a hundred years since I used to look forward to any Avengers comics...
Granted not everything Bendis writes is gold, in fact I'm incredibly bored of Mighty Avengers and found the cast (besides Ares and Widow) boring. I think his New Avengers is a really good title and I found the Illuminati mini actually a good idea but that's me.
Magneta was in Exiles. :P
damn i knew i was behind on x-men but when did emma go evil again
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on October 20, 2008, 03:57:27 PM
damn i knew i was behind on x-men but when did emma go evil again
In the Bendisverse
all women are eeevil. Or driven insane by power they can't handle, or evil, insane and slutty. Or just slutty.
Not that he's a misogynist, oh, no. Far from it.
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on October 20, 2008, 03:57:27 PM
damn i knew i was behind on x-men but when did emma go evil again
Emma isn't evil right now. She hasn't been "evil" since her Astonishing storyline and she was barely evil in that. No one knows the deal behind the dark avengers/illuminati. I'd be more concerned with Namor's involvement than Emma...but I dislike current Emma as everyone should know by now.
I'm very curious if Emma will be evil. The x-office protects their characters pretty closely, so I'd be kinda surprised if even the almighty Bendis would be allowed to mess with Emma.
I'm kinda expecting Emma's involvement with this Dark Illuminati will have been in the past rather than the present. Back when she actually was evil.
And mentioned above I'm very exciting about Slott on Mighty. To me Slott is kinda an anti-Bendis.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 20, 2008, 08:59:07 AM
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 18, 2008, 05:40:19 PM
The universe needs a good reboot.
You can't even keep up with DC anymore because too much is going on and they are trying their best to make it all happen in the same world and don't get me started on what they did to Wildstorm*.
Oh, I keep up with DC just fine, and the Wildstorm reboot was much more due to low sales than any DC mandate. What, you'dve rather they just cancelled those titles outright? And while DC makes a lot of changes, at least (at the time) 99% of the changes make some sense.
But fine, if you don't want a reboot, then we need a scene where the Illuminati take off VR helmets and Reed says "See, this is the future that would happen if we go ahead with this registration nonsense." Problem solved.
Quote from: tommyboy on October 20, 2008, 04:42:35 PM
In the Bendisverse all women are eeevil. Or driven insane by power they can't handle, or evil, insane and slutty. Or just slutty.
Not that he's a misogynist, oh, no. Far from it.
Ms. Marvel is none of those things written by Bendis and neither is Jessica Jones, Spider-Woman (before the big Skrull reveal), Black Widow, Wasp (except for that flashback), She-hulk, Emma Frost (who he writes as rather sharp and more in line with Morrison's changes), etc, etc...
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 21, 2008, 06:23:04 AM
Oh, I keep up with DC just fine, and the Wildstorm reboot was much more due to low sales than any DC mandate. What, you'dve rather they just cancelled those titles outright? And while DC makes a lot of changes, at least (at the time) 99% of the changes make some sense.
Actually yeah I would rather they cancelled Wildstorm titles than makes them really bad. The Authority has had5volumes in less than 10 years and there was maxi or mini-series they were supposedly ongoing. With all the reboots and needless deaths and making Wildstorm characters violent just for violent sake rather than because you know they are heroes who make hard choices but to be fair they haven't touched Planetary and thank god.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 09:21:18 AM
Quote from: tommyboy on October 20, 2008, 04:42:35 PM
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on October 20, 2008, 03:57:27 PM
damn i knew i was behind on x-men but when did emma go evil again
In the Bendisverse all women are eeevil. Or driven insane by power they can't handle, or evil, insane and slutty. Or just slutty.
Not that he's a misogynist, oh, no. Far from it.
Ms. Marvel is none of those things written by Bendis and neither is Jessica Jones, Spider-Woman (before the big Skrull reveal), Black Widow, Wasp (except for that flashback), She-hulk, Emma Frost (who he writes as rather sharp and more in line with Morrison's changes), etc, etc...
That would be Jessica "@**l sex with Luke Cage whilst going out with Ant Man" Jones, would it?
And Spider Woman uses sex pheremones as her "power", nuff said. The Black Widow and Ms. marvel have no actual character, they are just....there, and basically do nothing. And who wrote the Wasp in flashback except his holiness, and also has her say or do nothing?
I don't have to prove that every single appearance by every single woman in his comics oozes contempt for women, my argument is that whenever a female character plays a large role they are evil, insane or there for sex (all three if it's Wanda). Or a plot device.
Or do you think that his charming little scene with Tigra being brutalized in her own home by the hood in New Avengers was the work of a feminist? Or the defile scenes by the Purple Man in Alias? Yeah, Brian loves the ladies.. :rolleyes:
Quote from: tommyboy on October 21, 2008, 09:35:31 AM
That would be Jessica "@**l sex with Luke Cage whilst going out with Ant Man" Jones, would it?
And Spider Woman uses sex pheremones as her "power", nuff said. The Black Widow and Ms. marvel have no actual character, they are just....there, and basically do nothing. And who wrote the Wasp in flashback except his holiness, and also has her say or do nothing?
I don't have to prove that every single appearance by every single woman in his comics oozes contempt for women, my argument is that whenever a female character plays a large role they are evil, insane or there for sex (all three if it's Wanda). Or a plot device.
Or do you think that his charming little scene with Tigra being brutalized in her own home by the hood in New Avengers was the work of a feminist? Or the defile scenes by the Purple Man in Alias? Yeah, Brian loves the ladies.. :rolleyes:
Maybe we have a difference opinion on what "slutty" is. Jess was a single woman at the time and how different was her behavior from the average, single New York woman (or man for that matter)? I never understand how women are slutty for sexual experimenting or being forward while characters like Wolverine and even Cyclops get a slap on the wrist and wink at their sexual encounters (psychic cheating is cheating). I think Jess' character since her relationship with Luke and birth has made her mature and I live her for interactions with Luke regarding their family and superheroing because she is the voice of reason.
SW's pheromone power was created by Chris Claremont. So if anyone is to blame it is him not Bendis for using the ability. Also how is this ability any different than say Wonder Woman animal ability because it is a woman subduing/manipulating a man rather than an animal? I just don't see how this is slutty or even seen as disrespectful.
You think Nat and Carol are background characters when written by Bendis? That's funny because it was Carol who held the team together during Lady Ultron's attack and Nat who take the helm at Shield when Carol and Tony were disable and both stepped up during the Invasion. Yes, neither lady is Ares with his yelling or Sentry with his whining, but Nat has always been the strong, silent type. I would think it was OOC if Nat just started being the foreground, throw down type instead of the cunning, smart, and able woman she is. Carol has always had issues (at least she's not a lying drunk anymore as Busiek and Perez depicted her).
Wasp was the whole reason, Ultron was a lady. It was Oedipus complex all over again and wasn't a reflection on Janet as all and to say other wise is like blaming a victim for a stalker's behavior. While I thought it was sort of lame, it was plausible and in Ultron's character. He did kidnap her and program Jocasta with her brain patterns. What has Tony or Simon done lately in Mighty for that matter? I have no idea why Sentry is even on the team. To cry? To have bad things happen that he fixes? If anything, Sentry is the flaw in Bendis' writing.
You are right, the way he handled Tigra was offensive on some levels but she did get revenge. As for Wanda, purely plot device driven. Magneto, Lorna, and Quicksilver have all gone evil or mad at times and I find it realistic that the supposedly level-headed Wanda broke down. It wasn't her first breakdown or her first time abusing her powers besides it did a lot of clean up in the mutant population and actually made the Avengers a number one title again.
Comics have always abused its female characters no matter how strong (not that it is right) so I think blaming Bendis is really unfair. Besides bad $#!% happens in comics all the time to men as well.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
Maybe we have a difference opinion on what "slutty" is. Jess was a single woman at the time and how different was her behavior from the average, single New York woman (or man for that matter)? I never understand how women are slutty for sexual experimenting or being forward while characters like Wolverine and even Cyclops get a slap on the wrist and wink at their sexual encounters (psychic cheating is cheating). I think Jess' character since her relationship with Luke and birth has made her mature and I live her for interactions with Luke regarding their family and superheroing because she is the voice of reason.
Hi, AA!
Have you met me? I put down Cyclops and Emma and their constant sex scenes/talk all the time (it actually annoys quite a few people). I'd do it for Wolverine as well if they showed up as frequently as Cyclops and Emma's do (every week). Everything else you said, I agree with. It's a societal flaw. I'd also like to point out that "sex/gender" pheromones is hardly unique. Longshot and Gambit have that as well. Well not pheromones...but having the ability to easily influence the opposite sex. But, Longshot was also called a "slut" (kinda) by Dazzler...which is funny.
Quote from: Previsionary on October 21, 2008, 10:47:11 AM
Hi, AA!
Have you met me? I put down Cyclops and Emma and their constant sex scenes/talk all the time (it actually annoys quite a few people). I'd do it for Wolverine as well if they showed up as frequently as Cyclops and Emma's do (every week). Everything else you said, I agree with. It's a societal flaw. I'd also like to point out that "sex/gender" pheromones is hardly unique. Longshot and Gambit have that as well. Well not pheromones...but having the ability to easily influence the opposite sex. But, Longshot was also called a "slut" (kinda) by Dazzler...which is funny.
As they should be, his wife wasn't even dead and he was like "whatever, I've got a bitchy blonde now." In fact, Wolvie showed more mature love for Jean than Scott ever did. While I do blame Grant for this mess, Brubaker's constant sex scene between them is just...urgh. Do they do this to remind us, how boring Scott and Jean was?
I also find Longshot as a slut funny because he's so naive. I miss alien, dumb, uber-blond Longshot who was confused by Rogue's jealous and Dazzler's possessiveness. Speaking of Dazzler, does she even remember she loved Longshot anymore? Since her return, she has been kept extremely far from LS and it kind of sucks because it tells me that X-title relationship do not last.
A couple of updates from my original post:
-I incorrectly listed Dave Finch as the artist of Dark Avengers. It is in fact Mike Deodato.
-Based on the latest solicits it appears Huberto Ramos will be the new artist on Avengers: The Initiative.
Not sure how I feel about Ramos on A:TI. It's one of my favorite books right now, but Ramos is an artist who at his worst I find his art infuriating, but at it's best I like it. Problem is I find he usually hits both extremes in every issue. I have a real love/hate relationship with him.
Quote from: Podmark on October 21, 2008, 11:04:58 AM
A couple of updates from my original post:
-I incorrectly listed Dave Finch as the artist of Dark Avengers. It is in fact Mike Deodato.
Deodato? Really? That's kind of disappointing. I find his work hit and miss. And it really going to be called Dark Avengers?
While I do not like Ramos' work on Runaways (his art is killing my love for the title), I don't think he'll be a bad fit for A:IT if it looks like his Carey's X-Men run.
Another Avengers related tidbit I'll throw up here:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/WhoIsTheNewBlackPanther.jpg
Quote from: Podmark on October 21, 2008, 11:13:13 AM
Another Avengers related tidbit I'll throw up here:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/WhoIsTheNewBlackPanther.jpg
I just posted that same image!
Ramos? Eh. Deodato? Uh. That picture disturbs me because I'm tired of female versions of old characters. We already went through this trend once. CREATE NEW CHARACTERS, MARVEL! If you want a female villain/hero so bad...create new ones without ties to already established heroes and villains. Gah.
Quote from: Previsionary on October 21, 2008, 11:30:26 AM
Ramos? Eh. Deodato? Uh. That picture disturbs me because I'm tired of female versions of old characters. We already went through this trend once. CREATE NEW CHARACTERS, MARVEL! If you want a female villain/hero so bad...create new ones without ties to already established heroes and villains. Gah.
For some reason reading you comment made me think of FemDrOct...what the f? Just what the f?
What if Marvel started making male versions of female characters instead?
Im tired of gender swaps. That covers that. :P
Besides, that's been done also. Sunfire in Exiles. Mystique in Exiles. And for another male/fem swap...cyclops in Exiles. Hrm...claremont's last few storylines did this a lot actually. :P
ETA: and if ya don't count Sunfire...there's always Namora. ^^
Quote from: Previsionary on October 21, 2008, 11:56:18 AM
Im tired of gender swaps. That covers that. :P
Besides, that's been done also. Sunfire in Exiles. Mystique in Exiles. And for another male/fem swap...cyclops in Exiles. Hrm...claremont's last few storylines did this a lot actually. :P
I think the ultimate Claremont comic would be every male character was a woman with quasi-homosexual relations with other female characters as they fight crime heroically but still lay a smack down with Goddess-like might. What happened to him? He was once a really good writer.
Okey dokey...
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
Maybe we have a difference opinion on what "slutty" is. Jess was a single woman at the time and how different was her behavior from the average, single New York woman (or man for that matter)? I never understand how women are slutty for sexual experimenting or being forward while characters like Wolverine and even Cyclops get a slap on the wrist and wink at their sexual encounters (psychic cheating is cheating). I think Jess' character since her relationship with Luke and birth has made her mature and I live her for interactions with Luke regarding their family and superheroing because she is the voice of reason.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Jones was dating Scott Lang whilst sleeping with Cage on the side, which is writing her as slutty, (just as it would be for a male character, but Bendis' males don't do that stuff). Her 'character' has only ever been a cheap knock-off of Spiderwoman anyway, because originally Marvel would not let him write Spiderwoman doing what Jones did/does. Since Cyclop's and Wolverine's sex lives are not written by Bendis, I don't think it relevant to discussing his portrayal of women, any more than my citing plot points from Moby Dick would be.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
SW's pheromone power was created by Chris Claremont. So if anyone is to blame it is him not Bendis for using the ability. Also how is this ability any different than say Wonder Woman animal ability because it is a woman subduing/manipulating a man rather than an animal? I just don't see how this is slutty or even seen as disrespectful.
Was that power created by Claremont? because I thought she was created by Archie Goodwin, with that power. Perhaps you are right and Claremont added it later. I know nothing of "Wonder Woman animal ability", but given her past associations with bondage symbolism, you really are making my case for me. But again, Wonder Woman is not and never has been written by Bendis, so is not really relevant to the discussion. The point is that of the half-dozen "Spider-Woman" characters Bendis could have chosen to use, he brings back the one with the sex-pheremones, rather than, say, Arachne, who actually was an Avenger already. It (sex pheremone) is a lame power whoever has it, and a lamer writer who wants to use it. Remember, my argument is not that Bendis is the ONLY bad, borderline misogynist writer in comics, just that he's the main one at Marvel today. Coming up with examples of bad writing by others doesn't actually weaken my case at all, especially when Bendis chooses to perpetuate others' bad ideas that degrade women, as he has with Wanda (Byrnes crazy witch) and Spiderwoman (mmm...sex pheremones).
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
You think Nat and Carol are background characters when written by Bendis? That's funny because it was Carol who held the team together during Lady Ultron's attack and Nat who take the helm at Shield when Carol and Tony were disable and both stepped up during the Invasion. Yes, neither lady is Ares with his yelling or Sentry with his whining, but Nat has always been the strong, silent type. I would think it was OOC if Nat just started being the foreground, throw down type instead of the cunning, smart, and able woman she is. Carol has always had issues (at least she's not a lying drunk anymore as Busiek and Perez depicted her).
If you want Black Widow out of character lets discuss the stupidity of her using guns rather than her Widows Bite, or Widow's line or gas bombs.
Or let's not, because if it works for you that after forty years a character who has never used guns suddenly starts, (and the whole Black Widow Spider powers motif is rather thrown away by gun usage, unless there is an Uzi-spider I'm unaware of) then good for you.
You see the female 'avengers' as strong and effective, I see both 'avengers' groups as totally ineffectual, male and female alike. They generally take six months to accomplish nothing. All are there to showcase Bendis talking to himself. At length.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
Wasp was the whole reason, Ultron was a lady. It was Oedipus complex all over again and wasn't a reflection on Janet as all and to say other wise is like blaming a victim for a stalker's behavior. While I thought it was sort of lame, it was plausible and in Ultron's character. He did kidnap her and program Jocasta with her brain patterns. What has Tony or Simon done lately in Mighty for that matter? I have no idea why Sentry is even on the team. To cry? To have bad things happen that he fixes? If anything, Sentry is the flaw in Bendis' writing.
Well, I'm no expert on Greek tragedy, but I'm pretty sure that Oedipus didn't actually try to
become his mother, so either you and Bendis both need to read (or re-read) that story, or stop trying to pass off "lets have a hot nekkid chick villain" as some sort of classical literary allusion. That sort of lazy ignorance I expect of Bendis, it's one of his trademarks. I expect a little better of you, AA.
The original Jocasta story you mention actually was an Oedipus allegory, and of course that was not written by Bendis. Your questions as to the male 'avengers' echo my earlier mention of the whole lots' uselessness.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
You are right, the way he handled Tigra was offensive on some levels but she did get revenge. As for Wanda, purely plot device driven. Magneto, Lorna, and Quicksilver have all gone evil or mad at times and I find it realistic that the supposedly level-headed Wanda broke down. It wasn't her first breakdown or her first time abusing her powers besides it did a lot of clean up in the mutant population and actually made the Avengers a number one title again.
What revenge did Tigra get? I don't recall the Hood being humiliated in his underwear in his house by a jeering group of men whilst the image was transmitted for others to leer over. It was a nasty, repulsive, small minded bit of trash writing that was offensive on pretty much every level. And other than showing up to be boinked by the skrull Hank Pym (another abuse of a female character), what else has Bendis had Tigra do?
And if you think his portrayal of Wanda the crazy witch was the writing of a man who likes and respects women, well, I give up, I really do.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
Comics have always abused its female characters no matter how strong (not that it is right) so I think blaming Bendis is really unfair. Besides bad $#!% happens in comics all the time to men as well.
Of course it's
fair to blame someone for doing something you disapprove of! And citing other writers is no defense of Bendis. I don't give a rat's elbow if every other comic has been wrong, that does not make his comics right. He may not have started it, but he's the best selling protagonist of it.
But I could be way off base in my interpretation of his work, and he's actually the most feminist writer in comics today. But I doubt that.
Quote from: tommyboy on October 21, 2008, 12:32:36 PM
He may not have started it, but he's the best selling protagonist of it.
See that is what I think this whole conversation boils down for me: it is about selling comics. Death, shock, confusion, misdirection, sex, these things sell comics and Bendis is smart enough to figure that out. No, I'm not one of those people who want vulgar comics but I do want realistic depictions of comics characters and not have everyone smiling after the beat up the bad guy.
With that aside, while I respect all of your points regarding Bendis, I personally don't think he's being misogynistic. I also think you are attacking a writer because of the behavior of his characters. While you think all the characters are in fact Bendis, I think the only characters in the Avengers comics that reads like who Bendis (based on interviews and discussion forums) really is is Jessica Jones. I feel he speaks through her and even though you seem to think she is a slut because she was dating Antman and had sex with Luke, I can tell you that happens (a lot). People make mistakes and if heroes are suppose to be people I expect them to be as flawed if not more so (they wear costumes and beat each other up every time a villain isn't around) than myself.
As for the Hood's actions, he's a supervillain. They are evil. If he had done the same actions to a male character it would not have the impact or it would have been seen as the male victim being "weak" and "getting his butt kicked". So either way, I am sure people would have complained.
Also, wow...you got a little personal over fictional situations and characters, I would not like to discuss political, religion, or some combo of the two with you ever.
One more thing, I think comparing what other writers have done is valid because comic writers build on what others have written (which is why I made the points I did). Yes, Nat has in the past shown to use her spider-weapons rather than guns and Ultron was never a naked lady but did you ever think that was the artist (who is notorious for his depiction of women). So is Frank Cho a misogynist as well? I would say the opposite, he loves the woman form which is why he draws it so often and so curvy. The same with gay artists (Joe Phillips comes to mind). So I think calling Bendis a bad writer because of (no doubt) artist request (he did request Leisure suit Wondy) is out of line.
i know this is going in another direction but it is an avengers topic/question but what was you guy's favorite line up?one of my favorites was in the 80's( i think) when the gov. limited their membership to 7 members and a couple alternates.the team was ironman as chairman then there was cap, scarlet witch,ms.marvel, vision, falcon, beast, and scarlet witch.wasp and wonderman were also hanging out with them as alternates.a good mix of characters and not to powerful but enough to get the job done.hawkeye was also with them.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 20, 2008, 10:15:10 AM
Quote from: Talavar on October 20, 2008, 09:49:04 AM
It's interesting that you bring up female Loki. That's a character I look at and think, gee, it's too bad they took Loki and changed him to be a female character-cliche.
How so?
The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly? It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc. All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: herodad1 on October 21, 2008, 03:57:42 PM
i know this is going in another direction but it is an avengers topic/question but what was you guy's favorite line up?one of my favorites was in the 80's( i think) when the gov. limited their membership to 7 members and a couple alternates.the team was ironman as chairman then there was cap, scarlet witch,ms.marvel, vision, falcon, beast, and scarlet witch.wasp and wonderman were also hanging out with them as alternates.a good mix of characters and not to powerful but enough to get the job done.hawkeye was also with them.
I unno, probably the Busiek/Perez team. That was the first one I ever read and is usually the one I most associate with the Avengers. Plus it had Firestar and Justice, probably my favorite comic couple.
Quote from: Talavar on October 21, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly? It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc. All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.
While I would completely agree with you normally, I think the fact that in Norse myth Loki has been such an ambiguous character that this seems natural and normal to me.
I honestly thought you were going to point out some Marvel supervillain stereotypes.
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 18, 2008, 05:40:19 PM
The universe needs a good reboot.
I'm kinda surprised noone brought up Spider-Man in reference to this. The discussion mostly went in a different direction.
Anyway, Spider-Man's corner of the Marvel U just had a reboot, and look how the fandom handed that. It's been a huge topic of debate (to be fair, a big part of that was OMD, but there are lots of people who hate BND as well, and it's BND that's the new status quo). Can you imagine the far outcry that would result from the entire Marvel Universe being rebooted? It'd presumably be the OMD/BND debacle multiplied several times over. Even if it was a "good" reboot, it wouldn't please everyone, because, well, that just doesn't happen that often. Especially when you have a huge shared universe like Marvel or DC.
Just 2 words for ya: Heroes Reborn. :P
Anyone reading Marvel Adventure: Avengers? It is actually really refreshing.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: Talavar on October 21, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly? It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc. All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.
While I would completely agree with you normally, I think the fact that in Norse myth Loki has been such an ambiguous character that this seems natural and normal to me.
I honestly thought you were going to point out some Marvel supervillain stereotypes.
IIRC, in mythology, Loki was said as occasionally shape-changing into a woman (say, to learn Balder's weakness) or another female creature (such as a mare, under which form Loki mothered Sleipnir) .
Quote from: Epimethee on October 26, 2008, 07:20:43 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: Talavar on October 21, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly? It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc. All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.
While I would completely agree with you normally, I think the fact that in Norse myth Loki has been such an ambiguous character that this seems natural and normal to me.
I honestly thought you were going to point out some Marvel supervillain stereotypes.
IIRC, in mythology, Loki was said as occasionally shape-changing into a woman (say, to learn Balder's weakness) or another female creature (such as a mare, under which form Loki mothered Sleipnir) .
Very true - and if it was just Loki deciding to be female him/herself for whatever reason, I'd be okay with it. The current situation however, is that Loki's stuck as a female due to the manipulation of some higher power, and it's been presented like some sort of punishment - and that rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: Podmark on October 21, 2008, 11:13:13 AM
Another Avengers related tidbit I'll throw up here:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/WhoIsTheNewBlackPanther.jpg
Hmmmmm...makes me want to throw up too...LOL.
Dana
Quote from: Talavar on October 26, 2008, 07:47:18 PMVery true - and if it was just Loki deciding to be female him/herself for whatever reason, I'd be okay with it. The current situation however, is that Loki's stuck as a female due to the manipulation of some higher power, and it's been presented like some sort of punishment - and that rubs me the wrong way.
:blink: Ooookay... Now I understand. It looks indeed to be of dubious taste. Don't Marvel editors, when judging ideas like this, ask themselves if the story would be acceptable if the group represented was replaced by Jews or Afro-Americans? (Apparently not. Or they just don't care.)
Quote from: Silver Shocker on October 21, 2008, 11:08:46 PM
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 18, 2008, 05:40:19 PM
The universe needs a good reboot.
I'm kinda surprised noone brought up Spider-Man in reference to this. The discussion mostly went in a different direction.
Anyway, Spider-Man's corner of the Marvel U just had a reboot, and look how the fandom handed that. It's been a huge topic of debate (to be fair, a big part of that was OMD, but there are lots of people who hate BND as well, and it's BND that's the new status quo). Can you imagine the far outcry that would result from the entire Marvel Universe being rebooted? It'd presumably be the OMD/BND debacle multiplied several times over. Even if it was a "good" reboot, it wouldn't please everyone, because, well, that just doesn't happen that often. Especially when you have a huge shared universe like Marvel or DC.
Well, I think that one of the big reasons OMD was such a dismal mess was that it was only a partial reboot. Had the entire MU been rebooted, there would've been no need to make that silly deal with Mephisto. I think a full reboot would be much less controversial then selectively rebooting parts of the MU.
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 30, 2008, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: Silver Shocker on October 21, 2008, 11:08:46 PM
Quote from: bredon7777 on October 18, 2008, 05:40:19 PM
The universe needs a good reboot.
I'm kinda surprised noone brought up Spider-Man in reference to this. The discussion mostly went in a different direction.
Anyway, Spider-Man's corner of the Marvel U just had a reboot, and look how the fandom handed that. It's been a huge topic of debate (to be fair, a big part of that was OMD, but there are lots of people who hate BND as well, and it's BND that's the new status quo). Can you imagine the far outcry that would result from the entire Marvel Universe being rebooted? It'd presumably be the OMD/BND debacle multiplied several times over. Even if it was a "good" reboot, it wouldn't please everyone, because, well, that just doesn't happen that often. Especially when you have a huge shared universe like Marvel or DC.
Well, I think that one of the big reasons OMD was such a dismal mess was that it was only a partial reboot. Had the entire MU been rebooted, there would've been no need to make that silly deal with Mephisto. I think a full reboot would be much less controversial then selectively rebooting parts of the MU.
Yeah the OMD retcon was lame, but there's no way I want a whole universe reboot.
Some more Avengers: The Initiative news. Christos Gage confirmed that Ramos is on the book for at least a full arc. I think the number were 21-25.
haven't they tried a full line reboot. I think the name was...Heroes: Reborn. ^^
Hey, was nobody listening when I said that 1st? Sheesh! It's like I'm invisible or something.
Quote from: thanoson on October 30, 2008, 09:40:13 PM
Hey, was nobody listening when I said that 1st? Sheesh! It's like I'm invisible or something.
Who said that?? :blink:
Quote from: thanoson on October 30, 2008, 09:40:13 PM
Hey, was nobody listening when I said that 1st? Sheesh! It's like I'm invisible or something.
I know I certainly don't read posts from people without avatars. I don't even know what I'm replying to.
Quote from: Podmark on October 30, 2008, 09:50:01 PM
Quote from: thanoson on October 30, 2008, 09:40:13 PM
Hey, was nobody listening when I said that 1st? Sheesh! It's like I'm invisible or something.
Who said that?? :blink:
Who are you quoting and responding to Pod? You need a CAT scan, asap.
Quote from: BWPS on October 30, 2008, 11:02:16 PM
I know I certainly don't read posts from people without avatars. I don't even know what I'm replying to.
No avatar = no serious discussion.
-MJB
Ok, maybe I'm just not savvy enough to post a pic. I have tried but it never pops up. I put the url in but nothing shows. Guess you guys will never talk to me. Sigh.
IGN has the first cover to Dark Avengers:
http://comics.ign.com/articles/931/931416p1.html
On it we see what appears to be the Iron Patriot, Venom, Hawkeye, Wolverine and Ultragirl (or possibly Ms Marvel back in her old costume).
IGN is supposed to have Mighty Avengers and Avengers: The Initiative stuff next week.
Wolverine has boobs in that picture.
Also this looks awful.
That cover makes me want to punch something.
I'm guess those are the remaining skruls that still think there good guys
That looks pretty bad. I liked Pod's idea more for Dark Avengers, an evil Illumanati.
I'll more then likely be giving it a shot anyhow.
Quote from: murs47 on November 19, 2008, 12:12:52 AM
That looks pretty bad. I liked Pod's idea more for Dark Avengers, an evil Illumanati.
I think that is still going to happen. It is the evil Illumanati but it will be an one-shot.
What about new dark secret illuminati, starring wolverine. They could be new dark secret illuminati and kill people with their klwas and guns. And their guns could have claws coming out of them and shoot secret dark new claws, and wolverine could be in it. But new dark secret wolverine, with extra clwas..
That would be so kewl..
Quote from: tommyboy on November 19, 2008, 05:56:19 PM
What about new dark secret illuminati, starring wolverine. They could be new dark secret illuminati and kill people with their klwas and guns. And their guns could have claws coming out of them and shoot secret dark new claws, and wolverine could be in it. But new dark secret wolverine, with extra clwas..
That would be so kewl..
THIS.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 19, 2008, 07:26:08 PM
Quote from: tommyboy on November 19, 2008, 05:56:19 PM
What about new dark secret illuminati, starring wolverine. They could be new dark secret illuminati and kill people with their klwas and guns. And their guns could have claws coming out of them and shoot secret dark new claws, and wolverine could be in it. But new dark secret wolverine, with extra clwas..
That would be so kewl..
THIS.
What?
Quote from: Talavar on November 19, 2008, 09:26:08 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 19, 2008, 07:26:08 PM
Quote from: tommyboy on November 19, 2008, 05:56:19 PM
What about new dark secret illuminati, starring wolverine. They could be new dark secret illuminati and kill people with their klwas and guns. And their guns could have claws coming out of them and shoot secret dark new claws, and wolverine could be in it. But new dark secret wolverine, with extra clwas..
That would be so kewl..
THIS.
What?
:huh:
Quote from: murs47 on November 19, 2008, 09:28:51 PM
Quote from: Talavar on November 19, 2008, 09:26:08 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 19, 2008, 07:26:08 PM
Quote from: tommyboy on November 19, 2008, 05:56:19 PM
What about new dark secret illuminati, starring wolverine. They could be new dark secret illuminati and kill people with their klwas and guns. And their guns could have claws coming out of them and shoot secret dark new claws, and wolverine could be in it. But new dark secret wolverine, with extra clwas..
That would be so kewl..
THIS.
What?
:huh:
BURP!
THIS = IAWTC.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 20, 2008, 12:46:14 PM
THIS = IAWTC.
I.A.W.T.C.?
I am waiting 'til Christmas?
no? k.
Quote from: murs47 on November 20, 2008, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 20, 2008, 12:46:14 PM
THIS = IAWTC.
I.A.W.T.C.?
I am waiting 'til Christmas?
no? k.
[random] "I agree with this comment," silly billy goat. He used it in the X-thread tooz. Don'cha remember? No? Well I'llz be, doncha know. Hyucka! [/random]
Is my usual intrawebz speak too foreign for this forum?
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 20, 2008, 02:14:18 PM
Is my usual intrawebz speak too foreign for this forum?
No, just me.
Anyways, I just saw the February solicits and Secret Warriors was listed. Anyone excited about this title? Dull name, I know. But other then that it's a post SI title I'm looking forward to.
Quote from: murs47 on November 20, 2008, 02:35:54 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 20, 2008, 02:14:18 PM
Is my usual intrawebz speak too foreign for this forum?
No, just me.
Anyways, I just saw the February solicits and Secret Warriors was listed. Anyone excited about this title? Dull name, I know. But other then that it's a post SI title I'm looking forward to.
While I was happy with the cover, I think the title is going to fail. Also I'm sort of tired of second-generation teams especially when Young Avengers is still on hiatus.
I'm hoping Young Avengers will finally get an ongoing again after the Heinberg/Cheung project comes out. I think that's later this year.
I kinda hate that Secret Warriors is using the Warriors title. I've always liked the New Warriors and it just feels wrong to steal their name.
Also the book stole Stefano Casseli from the Initiative! Not happy about that but it at least means Secret Warriors will look good. Otherwise it doesn't really interest me.