Why?  I thought the episode was pretty good.

Some notes

[spoiler]
I think this episode proves that Takensi's power is regeneration and that this is the first time it ever manifests.  Poor Hiro.  This can't end well.

Speaking of not ending well, poor HRG.

So why does Niki want to ditch super strength?  That's a pretty handy ability, and one that's not so hard to hide.

Candace/Michelle must be pretty stupid.  What else did she expect Sylar to do?  On the other hand, the Company's choice of recovery site seems to show that they are expecting something like that.  I'm wondering if another person who can cancel out powers, and do it selectively, is around.  That would explain why he can't access his old powers, or the new one.

So what's the Irish girl's power, I wonder.

D.L.'s dead.  I was sort of expecting that.  They left him critically injured, so it's not a huge shock.
[/spoiler]

EDIT:  I'll point out I started this post two posts ago.

[spoiler]

Quote from: Talavar on October 08, 2007, 07:12:39 PM
His use of the force, plus the fact that they realized a regenerative character couldn't keep a tattoo did make me smile though, and we've seen him use two powers at once as of now - healing & TK.

Are you sure about that?  It looked to me as if the actual bullet wound didn't heal much at all when the camera was on it, aside from the bullet falling out.  Couldn't he have done most of the healing while he was down on the ground, only to have the bullet slide out when he stood up?
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Conduit on October 08, 2007, 07:17:23 PM
[spoiler]

Quote from: Talavar on October 08, 2007, 07:12:39 PM
His use of the force, plus the fact that they realized a regenerative character couldn't keep a tattoo did make me smile though, and we've seen him use two powers at once as of now - healing & TK.

Are you sure about that?  It looked to me as if the actual bullet wound didn't heal much at all when the camera was on it, aside from the bullet falling out.  Couldn't he have done most of the healing while he was down on the ground, only to have the bullet slide out when he stood up?
[/spoiler]

It looked to me like...
[spoiler]
he held the shooter (from Enterprise, by the by, another Star Trek actor) up against the wall even before standing, stood, and then the bullet wounds continued healing, all while still holding the shooter pinned against the wall & choking him.  Seems simultaneous to me.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Talavar on October 08, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
he held the shooter (from Enterprise, by the by, another Star Trek actor) up against the wall even before standing, stood, and then the bullet wounds continued healing, all while still holding the shooter pinned against the wall & choking him.  Seems simultaneous to me.

I was watching that pretty closely, and I'm pretty sure the bullet hole itself didn't change much at all.  The bullet fell out, but again, that could just be gravity (and/or his breathing causing his lungs to expand, pushing it out).  The fact that he was able to get up means that he had already healed a good amount by that point.
[/spoiler]

Let us count the ways in which everyone is stupid:

Peter:
[spoiler]
Not opening the box is stupid.  I understand that hot Irish sister is kissing him, which would delay me from opening the box too - for about an hour. Im wondering though if Peter does absorb a little bit of personality as well as powers- he looked very Sylaresque while telekntically choking goon.[/spoiler]

Mohinder:
[spoiler]
Making a phone call to your secret ally in a lab that is almost certainly bugged is stupid Parkman was right- you are most certainly no 007.
[/spoiler]

Candace/Michelle[spoiler]:
Cute explanation of why shes a different actress(as Missy Whatshername is now on Reaper). However, if you work for the Company you know what Sylar is. To think he'd do anything other than kill your butt once he knew you had a power is stupid
[/spoiler]

The Company:
[spoiler] Thinking isolation and not armed guard would be enough to subdue Sylar. Senind in Candace/Michelle as nursemaid is stupid [/spoiler]

West:
[spoiler]
Continual use of your power in broad daylight is stupid.
[/spoiler]

The special effects Department:
[spoiler]
If Sylar cant access his powers, playing the ticking sound effect that indicates he's accessing them is stupid.[/spoiler]

Maya/Alejandro
[spoiler]
They continue to be stupid.  And boring. [/spoiler]

Just a huge dissappointment of an episode.

Well, I'm still loving this show, although I see signs here of things I might not like.

[spoiler]I'm pretty sure we saw him use two powers at once Conduit, I mean, the whole bullet sliding out was pretty much the same visual as X-Men 2.

I'm starting to agree with some of you about the two Mexican kids, I feel like their story just isn't as interesting to me.  I wish they would just get to the US and move their story forward.  Still, her actually killing the police is pretty dark, and I feel like we may get something interesting out of that.

On a similar note, I'm rather surprised that none of y'all picked up the (possible) significance of Peter's tattoo.  I felt sure that I wouldn't be the first one to voice this, but:  Who had a similar tattoo that appeared and disappeared with the wearer's mood?  Nikki/Jessica, who's powers Peter now has.  In this episode we saw him go from aggressive, almost evil to his usual self.  I think we may be seeing the begining of his having taken on her affliction as WELL as her powers.  I have to say, I don't think I'm going to like that.  Peter's my second favorite character, and I really don't want to see him go evil and start killing people.  Ohh, and I agree that him not opening the box is ridiculously stupid.  If they didn't want to have him figure out who he is yet, it could have just been destroyed in the fight.

I don't know how you can NOT like Hiro, I absolutely love the little guy, and his story interests me more than just about any of the others.  Who else was REALLY disappointed that we didn't get to see Kenzi fight at all?

Candice must be REALLY stupid....that's just retarded, to let a guy who is a freakin' serial killer get that close to you when you could easily make him think you're on the other side of the room.....just stupid.

D.L. being dead...I don't know, here's another thing that doesn't necessarily follow from the last season, but it makes a lot more sense than Parkman's divorce.  He looked like he was going to pull through in the finale, but I can live with this.  I'm curious what they'll have Nikki do.

Ohh, and I'll be really, really sad if HRG gets it.  My wife and I have both come to really like him...as a matter of fact, he and Peter are probably tied for number two in my favorite characters.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: BentonGrey on October 08, 2007, 07:46:54 PMI'm pretty sure we saw him use two powers at once Conduit, I mean, the whole bullet sliding out was pretty much the same visual as X-Men 2.

Not exactly.  In X-Men 2, the wound healed around the bullet, then the bullet fell out, then the wound disappeared.  This time, I'm pretty sure that the hole remained the same before and after the bullets fell out.
[/spoiler]

Well, either way, I feel pretty confident that you're reading too much into it.  I feel like there was a clear indication that he was using both powers at once....but I can't say that I know it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

What makes me really, really reluctant to say that is that the writers were pretty definitive about him only being able to use one power at a time in a Behind the Eclipse a few months ago.  But, then, maybe I shouldn't be too confident in them given the impression I got from their most recent interview.  I'd just like to think that, no matter how little they plan ahead, when they themselves say something in an interview, they mean it.

Well, don't forget, they did say that his understanding of his powers is evolving...I think that leaves the door open, don't you?  Personally, it doesn't bother me that much, characters are always learning more about their powers.

Somebody asked about Peter being unable to fly off on its own, whether it was for dramatic effect or because he only has access to one power at a time.  They responded "It's the latter."  Doesn't leave a whole lot of wiggle room.  But I guess they could have just made a mistake this time.

Yeah, well, that doesn't necessarily mean it always will be, you know?  There's always room for evolution.

[spoiler]Actually, I agree with Conduit here, at least to a point. If he'd had full access to Clair's healing, those bullets would have been out by the time he got up. Plus, there's a decent sized gap before the guy goes up into the air, which would explain why he didn't die. Rapidly switching maybe, but we didn't see enough to say he's doing more then one at once.

I'm also starting to be won over into the "writers need to step up a notch" crowd. I don't think playing it by ear is nescessarily bad for a story, because I've seen that kind of thing pulled off.  However, I get the feeling there's sort of a lack of effort here, like they're trying to run this show off the fan base it accumulated last season.

Grah, that whole thing with Sylar was stupid. I like the character, but another season of him doesn't appeal to me... But on an interesting note, does anyne else get the impression that he has the virus?[/spoiler]

Quote from: Tomato on October 08, 2007, 08:38:35 PM
[spoiler]But on an interesting note, does anyne else get the impression that he has the virus?[/spoiler]

If he had the virus, he couldn't use his own power, but he did.

Well, it's a real bummer that no one seems to be enjoying this season so far. I think they're off to a pretty good start, for the most part, but it seems I'm the vast minority.

[spoiler]
I think Peter can only use each power at its full capacity one at a time. His TK was at maybe 75%, while the healing was 25%. Something like that. Remember- he did use invisibility AND TK on the roof while fighting Claude once. Didn't do it well- in fact, if I recall, he barely stopped the staff from hitting him- but he did it.

Peter's reservations about his identity are unfounded, but c'mon, he's bound to figure it out eventually.

Why do you think Candice was working for The Company this time? She could have been an agent for anyone at this point. Heck, Ando could've been talking to her on the phone in that scene. And, if you notice, she's really only about 14 years old- not exactily the perfect age for making good, solid decisions.

I do agree the Latin Wonder Twins are the weak link this season. That's all I'll say about that.

Hiro's story is great fun, but if he stays there all season, it's gonna get old. I can't wait to see him meet Kensai in the present, though.

I bet Nikki has the disease, I bet DL died of it. Old Lady Hawkins being a Super? More than likely. One of the 12? I dunno.

Bob (or Midas, as I like to call him) is more than likely one of the 12. Call it a hunch, I guess.

West kills HRG. Placing bets right here. I'm putting 20 Skittles on it. Who's in?

Matt's divorce was probably for his wife and kid's safety. That would make sense... well, more sense than it does now.

Mohindar = dummy? Where have I heard that one before...?
[/spoiler]

I think that covers them. I know it's hard to ignore the blatent plot holes, but this show is not specifically for the hardcore nerds, it's for everyone. That's why I'm trying to watch i like someone who doesn't read comics. It's the only way to enjoy the show, at least for me.

(Everyone can tell me I'm wrong now. [That's a joke! :thumbup:])

Quote from: BentonGrey on October 08, 2007, 07:46:54 PM
Well, I'm still loving this show, although I see signs here of things I might not like.

[spoiler]I'm pretty sure we saw him use two powers at once Conduit, I mean, the whole bullet sliding out was pretty much the same visual as X-Men 2.

I'm starting to agree with some of you about the two Mexican kids, I feel like their story just isn't as interesting to me.  I wish they would just get to the US and move their story forward.  Still, her actually killing the police is pretty dark, and I feel like we may get something interesting out of that.

On a similar note, I'm rather surprised that none of y'all picked up the (possible) significance of Peter's tattoo.  I felt sure that I wouldn't be the first one to voice this, but:  Who had a similar tattoo that appeared and disappeared with the wearer's mood?  Nikki/Jessica, who's powers Peter now has.  In this episode we saw him go from aggressive, almost evil to his usual self.  I think we may be seeing the begining of his having taken on her affliction as WELL as her powers.  I have to say, I don't think I'm going to like that.  Peter's my second favorite character, and I really don't want to see him go evil and start killing people.  Ohh, and I agree that him not opening the box is ridiculously stupid.  If they didn't want to have him figure out who he is yet, it could have just been destroyed in the fight.

I don't know how you can NOT like Hiro, I absolutely love the little guy, and his story interests me more than just about any of the others.  Who else was REALLY disappointed that we didn't get to see Kenzi fight at all?

Candice must be REALLY stupid....that's just retarded, to let a guy who is a freakin' serial killer get that close to you when you could easily make him think you're on the other side of the room.....just stupid.

D.L. being dead...I don't know, here's another thing that doesn't necessarily follow from the last season, but it makes a lot more sense than Parkman's divorce.  He looked like he was going to pull through in the finale, but I can live with this.  I'm curious what they'll have Nikki do.

Ohh, and I'll be really, really sad if HRG gets it.  My wife and I have both come to really like him...as a matter of fact, he and Peter are probably tied for number two in my favorite characters.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I just don't think Peter's tattoo disappears or reappears with his mood, mainly because it disappeared right after he got it.  A tattoo is essentially a dyed scar - someone who regenerates like he and Claire couldn't keep a tattoo for very long.  That it faded to the symbol before disappearing is just dramatic effect to my mind.  I also still don't think Nikki's power and split personality were connected, as both sides of her personality could access the power.  I agree that Peter's TK seemed to be fuelled by a Sylar-esque rage when he was crushing the guy, but that didn't seem apparent when he moved the armoured car.
[/spoiler]

I'm still liking this season, I'm just having reservations, particularly about this episode.

As disappointed as people seem, I thought this episode was no better or worse than the last couple, although I am now a little more worried that we are slipping into mid-season holding pattern again.

[spoiler]Regarding Peter healing-while-TKing: I just rewatched the scene: Peter absolutely, definitely healed while he TK held the thug up against the wall. We might speculate that he is multiplexing his powers, but if it happens faster than the eye can see, it's still two at once.  And that doesn't bother me. It's perfectly believable that people gain the ability to do more than one thing at once after a while. This may not be the right time for him to be showing greater mastery, but even that is arguable.

As for what the writers say at these spoiler sessions: who cares? Nothing said there is cannon. Ultimately, what appears on screen (and maybe the comics, if NBC is committing to them) is what we have to go on. That's it.

I agree that Peter not opening the box seemed contrived. It's another excuse to drag out that arc. The writers of this show seem to like the template of spending half or more of the season having the characters scattered around and doing unconnected things before some coherent plot line ties them together. I guess that's okay and it was fine for the first season when none of them had any reason to know one another. Now, I am less inclined to be patient with it. If they don't have a season's worth of plot to do, hire some more writers.

Am I the only one who wouldn't be surprised that Sylar killing Candace was all an illusion? Candace never seemed that stupid to me, and she knew who Sylar was last season and what he was up to, so she had no reason to let her gaurd down.

It's even possible that Candace is still working for The Company and they wanted him to do his dirty dead with someone to observe how he works and possibly better understand how the specials' powers work. For whatever reason, my immediate suspicion was that she's working for the big bad who haunts Molly's dreams.

Meanwhile, it wouldn't be any terribly unrealistic surprise if Sylar lost his powers when he was out. Apparently he's been in a coma or sedated or something since the end of last season. He's lucky he can even walk and talk.

While it's certainly possible, I don't thinks we've been given much on which to conclude that anyone not explicitly shown to have "the disease" actually has it. We don't know that Sylar has it, we don't have any reason to believe DL had it, or that Nikki has it. There are other (and, IMO, more straightforward) explanations of what happened to each of them.

It seems like whoever wrote the Herrera brother/sister storyline fell asleep on the Ctrl-P key. How many more iterations of

• They arrive somewhere
• They make some arrangement or do something to move closer to los E.U.
• They get separated
• She kills/sickens people
• He fixes her and maybe her victims
• They hustle off to start north again
• Goto 1.

do we need to see? None. We get it already: she makes people sick and he makes her and them better. At this rate, they'll still be in Tijuana at the season break. For all I care, they could have started out in Montreal and been at Mohinder's office by the end of the first episode. In fact, for all the interest that storyline has produced so far, they can drop in entirely and I won't miss it. I hope the writers turn things around, but at this point I could write it off as a sunk cost.

I am interested in what happens with the Ohura storyline, although last season's Nikki/Micah/DL arc never really paid off. I am with everyone else in guessing she would be a good part of the nine.

I liked Hiro's storyline in 1671, but it's about time to stick a fork in it. Get him back into the main continuity and then start telling this season's story already. I mean, I know they've introduced the specials-are-getting-sick and the -taking-down-The-Company arcs, but I don't want to get to mid-season and find we're only one step beyond that.

We had this same problem last season where it seemed like plot and character development were stalled out for needless filler.[/spoiler]

Also, I am totally agreeing that this I-want-to-be-cured-of-my-cool-superpowers schtick is lame and unrealistic (at least for the characters whose powers are useful and don't go off randomly and kill people).

BTW, some advice for HRG: Get some new frames and polycarbonate lenses! If I were him, I would seriously start thinking about wearing a full-face-mask motorcycle helmet. ;-p

Anyway, I was satisfied with the episode, generally. Not great but not exactly bad either.

Also, regarding Claire and West:

[spoiler]I think I can believe that Claire isn't too freaked about what West was doing wrong when he saw her doing her little toe routine. For one thing, she was (and should have been) more worried that she had been doing something so stupid than that he had seen her. Secondly, he pays a lot of attention to her when she is new at school and feels restricted in her ability to go out and make new friends. So basically, he is giving her the company she is probably missing which counts for a lot with a teenage girl. Not to mention the fact that his basic theme with her is that she is special. People have gotten a lot farther using that line...

BTW, I agree with West that Claire is a bad liar. She should have said she was practicing a trick with a fake rubber toe to gross out her mom or brother or to use at a Halloween party or something. She had all night to think of something. Yeesh.

As little sympathy as I have for West so far, I was with him when he interrupted Claire's hyperdramatic "Yeah, I am different and you can tell the world if you want because I am tired of pretending to be something I'm not!" speech by telling her to shut up. For pete's sake, Claire, get over yourself. I know that West doesn't know it, but I was rolling my eyes during her little monologue thinking how she spent most of last season bemoaning the fact that she wasn't normal.

And, yeah, West is not only a confirmed bonehead for flying around L.A. in broad daylight, but he's also a twit for what he said in class. Since he is one of the (4400?) people The Company has abducted, you'd think he would have developed some sense of discretion.

BTW, there was a tight shot of Claire in that beach scene where West talks about HRG. She has a helix earring in her right ear. Must be a pain re-piercing that every type she changes it.  And, she has what appear to be piercing holes in the lobes of both ears, though they have no earrings in them. Oops.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on October 09, 2007, 12:54:59 AM
Also, regarding Claire and West:

[spoiler]BTW, there was a tight shot of Claire in that beach scene where West talks about HRG. She has a helix earring in her right ear. Must be a pain re-piercing that every type she changes it.  And, she has what appear to be piercing holes in the lobes of both ears, though they have no earrings in them. Oops.
[/spoiler]

Hey... 1st time chiming in on this one.  I must really say... some of yall dig a bit too deep searching for explanations... rather than going most times with the most obvious.
[spoiler]
Peter:I think a few peeps are simply taking to literally everything presented or said about him as being etched in stone.  Even if writers say something themselves... they will often say things... because at that point... thats how it stood or to set you up .. and surprise you later.  What would be the point of telling all the secrets... then leaving no room for suspense and boxing themselves into a continuity box...?   Considering the nature of his powers.. isn't it more interesting to have them evolve rather than just stay a certain way... and thats it.  Peter's powers more so than any other character except maybe Skylar defines him as a charcater.  No growth in powers... no growth in Peter.
Also... after re-watching the gunshot/ TK scene a few times over now... he most certainly was healing while simultaneously using TK.  Any pause in using the healing power was simply for dramatic effect.
If anyone questions the 'one power at a time' deal or the I had to think about how I felt about the person limitations... these would seem to have simply been mental bloacks of his own as he was learning about his abilities.  Now with no memories or 'feelings' to fall back on... his self imposed mental restraints are off.  The powers are there.. they are part of him... he's using them now not thinking about it... but more so on instinct and reflex.

Skylar: I wouldn't be surprised if the reason he didn't gain the powers is because it was all part of an elaborate illusion.  Candace's power scene to be full sensory... ie sound... visual... touch... etc.  So its not to far fetched if Skylar was being 'tested'

Nikki/DL/Miko:  DL being dead is simply ... DL is dead... he was mortaly wounded and didn't survive.  it wouldn't be the first time writers left a character looking like they would make it at the end of one season.. only to open the next season talking about him post mordem.  And Nikki... I doubt seriously if she whas the 'desease'.  She is simply continuing with the motif from last season of 'heal me from these freakish abilities so I can be normal'.  She never interacted with some of the other characters who came to accept what they could do as a part of themselves.  Listen to what she was telling Mika about not using powers and being normal.

Claire:  LOL... it isn't uncommon for girls to have thier ears pierced as a baby... which would likely have been prior to her powers developing. And even if she did get them pierced later... her power is to heal.  And her ears would have most certainly done that... around a gold post however.  And as someone with piercings in the ears for 20+ years and havent worn earings in the last 15-17... once they heal that way... the holes tend to stay there... period.  Skin may grow over them... but they won't heal any further because as far as your body is concerened.. there is no wound... they are already healed

[/spoiler]
So far.. so good.. I am enjoying the show.

Saw this on a van driving past. Guess what my first thought was? I can't wait for it to screen in Britain, is it obvious? :lol:

[spoiler]Chalk me down as not believing that Candace was actually killed by Sylar.  Apart from Sylar's power not working, the fact that he seemed to step out into an episode of Lost strongly suggests that he's being confined by Candace's illusion power.  It seems very reminiscent of when Candace was keeping Micah trapped in Linderman's office building back in Season One.  Back then, Micah used his power to get out of a locked room, ran down a hallway, opened another door, and found himself back in the same room.

To me, this suggests that Candace is messing with Sylar's mind to try to break him down to the point that he doesn't know what reality is.[/spoiler]

If that's true Viking, I will be much happier.

Me as well, Vik.

Her powers are pretty powerful. I mean, this is almost reality control if true.

[spoiler]As I said earlier, the Sylar-is-still-trapped-in-Candace's-illusion theory seems likely to me, too. It does make Candace a very powerful illusionist, since she is making multiply layered illusions maintained over a long period of time and they have both tactile and likely gustatory and olfactory components as well. (Sylar both felt her hand and felt her when he "operated" on her and she provided the smell of the ocean and taste of that little fruity drink, although either of those could have been real). I mention this because creating tactile illusions basically is creating reality. When she creates enough illusory force to make a head-bashing seem real, then she is creating enough force to make handcuffs work and the same may go for knives, bullets, etc. Sylar's wounds may be real, but she could make him feel pain as well. And Sylar, who isn't an idiot, knew what her power was, so it's not as though he wouldn't have tried to make sure (and I assumed that why he was feeling her arm in that earlier scene, to check if she was really there).

BTW, it seems more likely to me that she creates light illusions and not mental ones. If she only created mental illusions, then they wouldn't fool cameras (as they seemed to in the "five years ahead" time line). So, if that's the case, she would have had to create actual forces for Sylar to feel; the force sensations wouldn't just be "in his head". Basically, by that theory, she is a plasma sculptor like Green Lantern, but her sculptures are better looking.

As an aside, it's also possible (though I don't necessarily think this is where they are going with it) that Sylar didn't actually lose any of his powers and that it's just that there's nothing real around for him to affect. Candace could be far away, monitoring him on telescopic cameras and microphones planted on him, depending on the range of her power.[/spoiler]

But was it really an orange? There was a rumor on a fan site that a second-assistant gaffer on the show said it was a grapefruit, but that the light from that red lamp in the background jut made it look like an orange. Plus, in issue #158 of Produce Patrol, Citrus Man claims that it was actually a tomato that he used his power on to make it taste like an orange. Now, that contradicts what was shown in the alternate time-line from three episodes ago where I am almost certain that The Scurvy Sultan is peeling the orange. I mean, you don't peel a tomato, right? My theory is that ...

;)

Okay, I can see where things get out of hand at times. But, as odd as all the analysis and criticism seem, they're part of what people do to become invested and increase their enjoyment of the show. Sorry if it bugs you.

Well, I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I enjoy the discussions and insights and honest disagreements. If something doesn't seem worth discussing, I just don't say anything. None of it here gets personal and I don't find it stressful.

Of course, if lots of people think this thread is too focused on details, maybe a good topic idea would be a "low-key Heroes discussion" thread that doesn't dig so deep. It's not like everyone is limited to just this one thread if they aren't getting what they want out of it...

So as not to bother IPS, then...

I liked this episode.  Stuff happened.  You know, with the thing?  And then that other thing?  In that place?

Awesome.

IPS, I'm sorry if I annoyed you.  You're certainly right about it stressing everyone out.  Now that I've cooled down some, I've found that I don't really care all that much about it.  So, end of that discussion.

Unfortunately the problem I'm personally having is less the "They said this but it contradicts..." insanity, but more that it's just not done as well as it was last season. Don't get me wrong, the first episode was awesome, but it seems like the longer this season has gone on, the less I like it. It's nothing I can point to and say "This is why" but more that I get this feeling, especially last episode, that they just are settling for "good enough" when it could be much better.

It's probably just me being overly-critical though. Meh.

For the record, I like the idea of Sylar still being trapped in Candice's illusion, especially since it fits with Sylar's inability to use his previous powers. It makes something that just seemed insanely stupid on Candice's part seem more possible.