wouldn't it be unfair to weaker characters if super strong characters had their stronger punches have zero costs as well?

I usually give zero costs only if it has a very low damage output is that balanced?

Well, there is the usual compromise between what's fair and what accurately reflects your conception of the character. I might be thinking of a character that has a strong punch and doesn't get tired using it, so the zero EP cost is accurate. If he goes up against a bat thug, things probably won't seem fair.

But, in game terms, fairness is supposed to balance out in the total point cost of the character, not so much in the cost of any single power or stat or attribute. In other words, if my 6000 CP character has a 3000 CP punch that does high damage at zero EP cost, then that's a good punch, but he won't have been able to spend as much on other stuff that a different 6000 CP character with a 1000 CP low damage, zero EP cost punch would, like 10 points of invulnerability. So, in terms of overall game balance, two characters with the same CP cost should have some sort of rough parity in abilities, and that's how fairness is supposed to work.

In (game) reality, this is only an ideal. It is pretty easy to design two characters with the same CP cost who are not evenly matched (either versus one another or versus some third party). That's just the reality of a game that allows so many options, not to mention that things like FFX are great for making it possible to realize a particular character concept, but they aren't necessarily as carefully cost-balanced as the in-game powers and attributes.

BTW, my usual metric isn't really balance or accuracy, although those things are useful. I usually go for what I think will be a fun character to play in a given context (in the Rumble Room, in a campaign, etc.). That means that he will be challenged by the baddies and I will have to employ some skill in defeating them with him (and it's possible I won't be able to). For instance, taking Superman against Minute Man is not challenging and won't be fun, even if the two heroes accurately reflect their character concepts. Likewise, it's easy to design a character who can mop the floor with, for instance, Deja Vu, even if he costs no more than DV does. That's not likely to be much fun either.

In addition, having a variety of powers (within his concept, of course) can make things interesting and fun, even if it isn't the most optimized way to win a given match-up or deliver the most damage in one blow. That can help provide a different sort of balance, where a character may not be dominant in a particular mission, but he will be useful in a wider variety of encounters.

so how would you suggest building a super strong character? as opposed to a character with normal strength..would it reflect the concept of the character more if I make let say a punch by the Hulk cost zero?

and how much invulnerability (attribute) do characters like Hulk supposed to have as compared to lets say a character like colossus or even luke cage?

Essentially energy = refresh. I encountered this trying to make guns cheaper by attatching a cost to their shots... then you would have somebody shoot once or twice and stay innactive until it recharged. Same would happen to the hulk... he would still punch just as hard but not as often, something that would probably feel innacurate. If you want to balance your characters I suggest you find another way.

Ok so
Punches = 0 cost
Guns = 0 cost

how did you balance your characters?or did you just leave them at that? what if I put them in a mod?

rumble room balancing is quite different from mod balancing so it's probably a good idea not to try to mix the two. My rumble room hero files are quite different than the versions that eventually end up in the mods because in mods, you have to make the playable characters fairly strong, but not strong enough to rip through everything by their lonesome (if it's a team oriented mod). I always try to make heroes have a zero cost weak/medium powered punch and some characters might have a projectile instead or...a projectile and punch. I try to make my weapons require energy since I don't think guns should be able to fire all willy nilly unless that's they're main way of attacking...and even then I might employ the battery powered attribute to simulate the gun running out of ammo (see green arrow in the gday mod).

Essentially, I miss the ff1 system since everything seemed so much easier to balance out, heh.

Thanks a lot for helping me with both my questions :thumbup:

So how do you balance out your characters is your playing an ezscript story map?

by the way any suggestions on the invulnerable levels for the characters?