Opinions on religious characters

[Carravaggio]

Many of you might have seen my Christian characters known collectively as The Church. They are superhumans strong in Christian faith who believe they should use their power to help mankind and spread God's word. In general they have received positive reactions form those who commented.
Paradox made some excellent Biblically themed heroes and villains at NPI. The stories were well thought out and interesting and not at all (in my mind) disrespectful of the Hebrew faith.
So my question, faithful FR'ers, is creating and skinning a Muslim group just asking for trouble? Most people on this board, i assume are in line with the idea of letting everyone pursue their own ideas on faith and God. We are free to worship who or what we want without TOO much fear of reproach. And if you don't want to worship anything, that's seen as ok too.

Some of you might know that i consider myself a Christian. As a Christian i try to never force my beliefs on anyone. I'm happy to tell you i AM a Christian, but that's as far as that part of the conversation will go. Unless you ask to talk about God and faith i won't bring it up. I know that religion is a tricky topic, and there are representatives of all faiths that give those faiths a bad name. Zealots who make society tar us all with the same brush.

But i believe in respecting peoples choices in life, how they live and what and who they worship. I'm happy for Jews to life a life according to Hebrew law, and Muslims to live their lives according to Islamic law. I don't dislike anyone or any minority, religion of group. I might not understand everything about you but i'm willing to listen. I make no effort to disrespect you and underneath our skin we all have the same parts and work the same way. And to my aetheist and agnostic friends (and Buddhists and Hindus and Zoroastrians) we all love comics because we are here so we have that in common at least, and thats enough.

So when i had an idea for a Hebrew superhero group, i was excited  by the prospect. i imagined portraying strong, positive visual aspects of the faith i imagined how they would play in the rumble room, and the more i thought about it the better an idea it seemed. i made a colour study to knock about the concepts til i liked them:


then before i could even open nifskope i started thinking about a Muslim group. I have a Christian group, now a Hebrew group, it was a natural step. These three broad religions worship the same God (when you get down to it, semantics aside) and for completions sake i would like to pursue the idea.

Like the Church and the Chosen i would be looking to represent positive aspects of the faith. I would shy away from controversial elements, this is a board about, essentially comicbooks after all :D, i'm not looking to rock the boat.

I will at least draw them but am i wasting my time skinning them?, all in all, what are your thoughts on such a thing?
Paradox made a fantastic Hebrew group and wheni was reading their profile in the NPIcyclopedia i never once got a feeling that it was at all disrespectful. And yeat when i imagine creating a Muslim group i feel like i hev to walk on eggshells. Whats the go, FR? Am i letting the media and Islam-phobia get to me? Do i have grounds for worry? I have found reports of muslim made video games that attempt to portray muslims not as villains but as heroes. Is wht im doing so different, despite the fact that i am not a Muslim and my knowledge of Islam is limited?

tl;dr would you guys download, play as and enjoy a Muslim group of superheroes portrayed in a positive light?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: oh yeah the reason i'm posting this here is two fold, it doesn't fit exactly into hero files, art or skins, but it does fit into freedom force discussion. and for the traffic. i hope to get as many views on this as possible, and therein as many replies.

[GogglesPizanno]

Well Without getting into specifics about positives or negatives, I personally believe that religion is one of those things that is personal and private to each person. How and what they worship is entirely between them and whatever they believe in. Being able to have constructive discussions about faith and belief is a great thing and I wish more people of all faiths could embrace it.

Alas, doing it here...I think it's definitely a gray area and a slippery slope...especially for a site about a video game. Now I realize that for the most part this is a small and fairly tight knit gaming community we have here, but its also open to the public and on the internet. So my guess is that at some point, someone is gonna be offended about something. If its about religion, my fear is that it COULD get overblown and out of proportion really fast.

I think creating superhero teams based on the various faiths is an interesting idea, but I also think that your posted explanation (while I understand why you did it) actually is now gonna make your doing a Muslim team that much more of a possible hot button discussion. If someone had just skinned them, put them out, and said "Here they are" it woulda been like any other niche sorta team (Canadians, Biblical, Lithuanian etc...) The fact you prefaced this whole thing with a discussion about being Christian and not wanting to offend, well I think that painted a target on the idea -- regardless of its merits.

So I guess my general opinion is that while I am all for religious discussions, I don't think this forum is the ideal place to be having them. I think you should be allowed to skin and release whatever inspires you creatively. If someone has a problem with what you release, it can be dealt with in a less public arena. But initiating a discussion about it before anything is ever done just seems to me to fan the flames.

[AfghanAnt]

I love it. I'm Jewish and I would love to get these babies into the rumble room. Religious heroes or villains don't bother me anymore than Nazi or murderous pirates (despite what Disney has done with Cap Jack Sparrow, pirates were murderous thieves not lovable rogues) characters. I think if it is a good design and a thought out background any character is a good character.

I really love the Golem and the one I assume is Solomon (far right).

[The Hitman]

I don't see a problem with it, Car. And I agree with the reasoning, and your concern. That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

And as a fanboy of your work, will we see a Buddhists team as well?

[herodad1]

way to STAND UP car! :thumbup:

[GogglesPizanno]

ips bascially summed up the same sorta thing I was trying to say in a much more economical way....I get a little wordy sometimes.

[the_ultimate_evil]

i have no problem with ti, hell i have a character that becomes and angels and on that fights demons all which have religious aspects in there characters.

like many other things as long as its not the main and only gimmack then it can add a layer to the character

[Tomato]

Religion is one of those things that seems to be a taboo discussion, and I really do not understand it. It's like we're(because yes, I am a religious nut/Christian too) afraid to accept anything outside of our little bubble of tradition and uniformity, and if anyone else doesn't conform(because the fact that many of those traditions come from the worship of the Roman/Greek gods makes them so legitimate)then ZOMGEXPLOSION! The way I look at it, the people who are going to be mad about it are going to be mad regardless, and there's nothing you can really do about it.

I think that, in the end, it comes down to you. If you're doing something to be a jerk, or just to be funny, then I will be more then happy to flame you for it. But if you're doing something because you think it's a neat idea, like your Nazi goodness or your Church skins, then more power to you.

[zuludelta]

Paradox made a fantastic Hebrew group and wheni was reading their profile in the NPIcyclopedia i never once got a feeling that it was at all disrespectful.

For what it's worth, Dan was Jewish (I mean he lived in Tel Aviv, after all), so that probably explains why his Israeli/Jewish characters had a lot more going for them than just being typical stereotypes (although one could make the argument that they fall under the patriotic superhero stereotype, but that's something else entirely that's more of a genre-centric creative criticism than anything else... the whole shield-wielding flag motif thing, etc., etc.).

Take note that I'm not saying that only Jewish artists can create good Jewish characters or anything like that, all I'm saying is that the fact that he was brought up and already immersed in the culture he was trying to portray meant that he was able to avoid certain aesthetic decisions that an "outside" documenter might be influenced to make because of commonly-held beliefs, stereotypes, and conventions regarding that culture's portrayal in pre-existing media.

And yeat when i imagine creating a Muslim group i feel like i hev to walk on eggshells. Whats the go, FR? Am i letting the media and Islam-phobia get to me? Do i have grounds for worry? I have found reports of muslim made video games that attempt to portray muslims not as villains but as heroes. Is wht im doing so different, despite the fact that i am not a Muslim and my knowledge of Islam is limited?

You should never let fear of recrimination keep you from expressing yourself creatively. In my opinion, an artist should only ever be accountable to his/herself and a common-sense notion of non-maleficence with regards to the subject matter he/she wants to tackle (at least as far as doing personal, non-commercial projects are concerned). What's the point, otherwise?

That being said, you have to be prepared for any untoward reactions your work might engender. You readily admit that your knowledge of Islam is limited, so you should expect it when people more knowledgeable in that area call into question your aesthetic decisions.

My advice is that you owe it to yourself to learn as much about the subject matter that you want to portray from as many different perspectives as you can before settling in a direction you want to take your interpretation, not because you want to appease the standards and opinions of others, but because as an artist, it's in your best interest to create the best possible work you can in that particular context.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

At the risk of sounding flippant, do you have plans for agnostic and/or atheist (or Buddhist or Hindu or Zoroastrian) teams in the works, Carravaggio?  'Twould be refreshing to see someone move beyond the Big Three (with no disrespect meant toward our fellow Unitarians ;)) that so frequently dominate the imagination of (at least) the western world.

[shameless plug]Of course, all are welcome to explore these and other delicate topics at MeshMatters.[/shameless plug]

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Unrepentant Pluggernaut

[Lunarman]

Well, being a firm and completed Atheist I would say it's a great idea. Although, to me the concept behind them is nothing just another theme rather than a system I actually believe. Thing is, with your skins everything is brilliant so I wouldn't complain if you made even a Nazi themed group. (Oh yeah, and you're doing that already :P)

That huge armor at the back is possibly the coolest hero I've ever seen!! Actually, I really really like the the designs you've done so far.

[ubergreendragon]

I think religious characters is a good thing. Nothing wrong with super heroes having faith no matter what religion they follow. cept mabye for Scientology  :P

[Intensity]

good post!

Nightcrawler is an avid Catholic I believe... Kitty Pryde is Jewish... some heroes like Jubilee are searching but believe in God... some are atheist, political, conservative, liberal- just like society.

I am Christian and don't mind those characters in the least- I like them for the material and excitement that they put on paper.  I also have several friends with totally different beliefs than me- at times people would call my faith contradictory to who I am, but it is my faith to follow and not force upon others... just like I don't force my beliefs on others- I only talk about it if they want to talk God.

You did a good thing about bringing up this topic, but I love the idea of religious characters.  Board members can pick and choose which ones to follow or download, just like everything else we pick and choose in life.

Kevin

[BentonGrey]

Hey Car, I've loved your Christian heroes, and have eagerly watched their creation.  I myself am a Christian, and I've always enjoyed characters who capture that in a positive way (like some iterations of Nightcrawler).  As far as your designs for Muslim characters, I see no problem with it.  We're all mature enough here to deal with it as long as you do it respectfully.  It's not like you're creating a villain team, so I shouldn't think it would be too troublesome.  I agree with ZD though, it would behoove you to be more comfortable with your knowledge of the faith before you take it on.  The Qua'ran is interesting reading anyway.

[House Quake]

I wished to have chimed in on this one a bit sooner.

When introducing religion into the mix of comic characters, two things come to mind.  First, are they characters who happen to be of a certain religion... or are they characters who 'represent' thier religion.  The former situation is easier to pull off and often is in comics... as someone mentioned... Nightcrawler for instance is a devote Catholic.  But the latter... always needs to be handled with a touch more sensitivity towards and understanding of the religion in question.

Paradox's '10' were mentioned as examples of well thought out characters of the Jewish faith.  They were thought out well because: a... Paraodox lived in Israel and had a 'spiritual' understanding of the subject matter.  b... he formulated and tossed the ideas to a person who had a 'spiritual' understanding of Chistianity and an over all understanding of theology in general... being myself... to make sure the characters were 'religously' correct and were created with a 'sensitivity' towards individuals whom would have a 'spitual' connection to the subject matter.

I say 'spiritual' because truth is... it is one thing to 'read' the Bible, both Old and New Testiments, or Qua'ran and understand the 'text'.... but still not 'really' understand what you read.  Most people who simply would put Christians or Jews into the same paragraph as Hindu, Bhuddist or Muslims... or even Celtic or Norse religions.... do so on an 'intellectual' level... and often run risk of offending those who view all the fore mentioned and others on a 'spiritual' level.  The funny thing is that the intellectual tries to rationalize thier view... while the spiritual person's views are based on 'faith' which defies rational.  But I degress because this leads into subject way too sensitive.

The short and sweet... creative people tend to be more open minded than others and are often not bothered by subjects that border on the risque when religion is involved... but others less creative... tend to be.

Bottom line.... when creating charaters who by nature 'represent' aspects of the religion in themselves.... you REALLY need to have a strong understanding which goes beyond the 'intellectual' understanding of the religion in question.  And definately more than just a basic understanding of the religions core principles.  Learn as much as you can on the religion... even if it involves speaking with some one who has a better understanding than yourself.  I'm not suggesting this be done so much as to avoid offending people.. because you always will offend some one when religion comes into play... but you add a much deeper level of authenticity.  People who just don't know any better will sy.. cool... those with a deeper understanding would say... "That's not right..?"

I wish Carr would have been onboard NPI years ago when Myself, Komando, Zulu, Dox and the rest of the guys were setting 'precedence' on 'faith' based characters and the... 'spitual' make up of the world around us.  A lot of good stuff was tossed around.  When Dox completed the '10' and the 'Seven Sins'... every thing about the characters were built around a premise of 'what they beleived' vs. stating what actually was.  Even the charcters who had direct Biblical references and were adressed as being historically correct... still were designed from a beleif or 'faith' angle.

[Figure Fan]

I like what you've been doing, Carr, and take absolutely no offense whatsoever to those projects or future projects.