Heroes Season 2 Open Discussion

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

About the virus and Sylar:

[spoiler]
Mohinder states it was the same strain used on the Niki.  The strain used on Niki was an experiment to see if they could develop a version of the virus that removes powers without killing.  That's why they wanted to test it on Niki's relative.  It's not perfected and may or may not work as advertised.  That's why Mohinder wants to cure it.  It may very well not kill, or work very, very slowly.  That fact that Sylar's had it for a while but is not sick is not, therefore, a mistake.  That's what that strain was designed to do.
[/spoiler]

[Talavar]

[spoiler]
I really think Maya and Micah's cousin were being set-up in this volume for a more important role later in the season, plans that have been derailed by the writers' strike.  We had Micah's cousin learning the dangers in trying to be a hero, and we had Maya get a serious grudge against Sylar, who's back powers-wise now, both character developments that had little to nothing to do with the over-arching plot of volume 2.

One nit-pick: Peter was trying to avert the release of the virus because he couldn't get back to the future to save his Irish girlfriend when he encounters Hiro, who has much better control over his time/space manipulation.  Couldn't he have just asked Hiro to save her?  Also, by changing the future that the Irish woman is stuck in, what happens to her?  Does reality just change around her and she's in a different future, having skipped a year of her life?  Or might she have vanished along with that possible future?
[/spoiler]

Also, the more I think about the abyss the show has opened in having Claire/Adam's blood cure anyone of anything up to and including death, the more I conclude that they've got to get rid of Claire at this point.  Adam is taken care of, but having a character that can basically undo any significant character death or injury without any risk or damage to themselves is pretty horrible in terms of story-telling.  Even Hiro's power, which could be used to undo the same things if the writers wanted to, isn't quite as bad, since he actually has to risk himself by going to the past and making changes, changes that could potentially make the future worse.

[thalaw2]

The imagine what Peter's blood could do.....

[Adamence]

A few gripes about the episode and the volume in general:

[spoiler]
The healing blood is getting tiring, and they've only used it twice to bring people back already.  It really makes death a joke on this show, which is kind of annoying. 

Speaking of death being a joke, I've brought it up before, and I'll bring it up again, they really need to stop killing off so many darn characters.  It is really becoming kind of annoying.  I mean, it's normal for a show to move on, and evolve and need to get rid of characters, but they've killed off some that could definitely have future use, and they've killed off some that they could have gotten rid of by other means. 

It is certainly annoying that we don't really have much clue about what the last generation could do.  Especially given that this volume was really supposed to link the two generations together.  It was almost as if they weren't at all important, other than to show that they "screwed up" 30 years ago and it was coming to bite the world in the butt now.  I'd really be interested to know what they can do, and why they don't seem to want to do it now.

I didn't really care for Monica or her entire related storyline.  All it seemed to do was introduce her character, which really did nothing, give Micah something to do, which was practically nothing and kill off Niki, which could have been done in any number of ways. 
[/spoiler]

[thalaw2]

I just saw the last episode and it seems like they are going the route of most major Marvel comic characters..


Dying and coming back is all a part of comics...lets not forget the old rule...."Everybody but Bucky" and we all know that rule is broken now.  It's funny that watching a show about comic super heroes dying and coming back makes comics fans upset maybe it's because there is no space a few years between resurrections. 

[spoiler] I don't think this is the end of Niki...she's too fine to die.   I wish they had killed off Elle, i'm sick of her or even Molly because of her bad acting.   Will lack of oxygen kill Adam or will he just come back to life when the coffin is opened by some future archaeologists digging up ancient remains of the 21st century?  Was that Peter who caught Nathan when he was falling?

I thought this was a good episode considering that the story could not be told as it was meant to be.  They were wise to end it early instead of causing more damage. [/spoiler]

[stumpy]

Okay, I got bored with the show several weeks back and finally got around to watching the last four episodes tonight. Honestly, if it weren't for the fact that this thread has been so active and I've been missing the discussions, I don't know that I ever would have gotten back around to the show.  ^_^

But, I am glad I did. I must say these last several episodes were pretty good. They were at least much better than the first several episodes of the season. The pacing was much better and some of the plot points were pretty good, IMO.

Anyway, thoughts, mostly about the finale:

[spoiler]I don't really buy The Company re-recruiting HRG. They've been shown in the past to value agents who are fiercely loyal and who follow orders without hesitation. HRG doesn't really fit the bill anymore, in my estimation. Of course, all of that previous approach could have been a symptom of Linderman's influence. It could be that, with Bob at the helm, The Company is being a little more flexible about its agents (e.g. Mohinder).

And, meanwhile, Bob is probably the world's worst dad. But, it's perfectly reasonable to think he really is acting on behalf of what he sees as the greater good. I think his methods are deplorable, but he wouldn't be the first who takes a "you have to break a few eggs" view of figurative omelet-making.

I don't know about this "going public" plan of Claire and of Matt/Nathan/Peter. I don't believe for a second that The Company is the only organization with an ends-justify-the-means approach to what constitutes good. Many institutions (including governments) would be more than willing to lock the specials away in a lab for the rest of their lives for testing "for the public benefit" or in prisons "for public safety". It would be about thirty seconds after hearing what Claire's blood can do for injuries before someone started demanding she "donate" whatever her physiological limit is in order to benefit the injured. And, even if no organization targeted specials, Claire is crazy to think she wouldn't hounded to the ends of the Earth by individual people who want her to heal their hurt baby and so on. Whether or not it might bring down The Company, the whole scheme is utter nonsense as a plan to improve the lives of specials and their families.

I agree that the "regenerator blood = extra healing potion" device is already played. Because of it, we really can't be sure anyone is dead for good (unless we actually see them cremated, I guess). We don't even know how long HRG was clinically dead before Claire's blood brought him back. I am a little curious how a transfusion works for someone with no pulse, but that's a technical point.

The  "a shot in the head kills regenerators dead" theory sounds bogus to me. As someone here pointed out, there is no way they could know that. (And, before someone mentions that Adam said it himself, that's irrelevant since there's no way he could know either.) It is, of course, possibly true. But, even if the company has experience with some other regenerator (which they may well have), it is still blind presumption that all healing powers work the same way and have the same limitations. Moreover, we have seen the regeneration power heal Claire from a brain injury, heal Peter, and heal HRG's shot to the head. None of those may be absolute proof but they certainly carry the implication that a bullet through the brain is not a definitive way to kill a regenerator.

BTW, apparently, either Matt has some inherent immunity to his own suggestion power that Peter picked up or Peter picked up the immunity from somewhere else. This is another one of those powers that puts Peter over the top in terms of uber-ness.

Also, that new power kind of puts Matt on the uber list as well as on the moral hazard list. Which makes me wonder about his father. Does it strike anyone else as odd that Parkman senior never used any direct mind control power in that way? He always tricked people into doing what he wanted via his nightmares, not by direct suggestion. It's possible that Matt's power is not exactly the same as his father's...

Also, as far as speculation goes, I would have no problem if there were certain specials whose powers Peter cannot duplicate, like the Haitian's. There is no rule that every power must be duplicable. Thus far, we've seen Peter duplicate many powers he was exposed to. But there is no proof he got all of them.

I like that Sylar is still around and will be a threat. I do agree, though, that we don't have to have a Sylar arc every season just because he isn't dead. Same deal with Adam. Although, I have to agree that it would make perfect sense for Sylar to want to get Adam's power, if he ever found out about it. And, if Molly is to be a regular character, the fact that Sylar would be constantly after her (what better power to further his "evolutionary imperative"?) would be a decent plot device.

So, who shot Nathan? It kinda looked like Syalr, but I re-watched it and the face was definitely never shown and anyone can wear a dark overcoat and baseball cap. To be honest, it could have been a job the company would give to HRG, both as a test of loyalty and because of his experience with wet work.

Finally, I did think it was a bit of a stretch that Matt, Nathan, and Peter are holding this press conference to reveal things that they know a powerful group doesn't want the world to know about and they apparently gave almost no thought to security.[/spoiler]


As an aside, this thread is not just for negative comments. It is for all discussion of the show, positive or negative. It is the other thread in which the participants voluntarily limit the area of discussion. If someone wants to post a wholly positive comment about the show here, that is perfectly fine.

[Conduit]

Stumpy:

[spoiler]
The "kill regenerators by destroying the brain" does have some truth.  We know that cutting the head open and removing the brain does the trick, because Sylar killed Claire that way in FYG and Future Hiro's original timeline.  I think that a head shot might work, if you hit them in the right spot (I think more towards the bottom of the brain, where the tree branch ended up lodged in Claire's brain, remember in the first season finale when Peter told Claire to shoot him in a specific spot if he went nuclear) and the gun was powerful enough to actually blow a lot of brain material out of the exit wound.  At the very least, it would kill them temporarily and give you time to get close and follow up with a few more head shots.  Victoria's shotgun from the previous episode, at least, would definitely work at the ranges she was going to shoot them at.

I don't think that Matt's suggestion ability is insurmountable.  Angela was able to resist it for a while, though she got a nosebleed.  Trying to get someone to do something that they have strong inhibitions against doing, like murder, could be pretty hard.  I imagine having the telepathy ability to push back helped Peter to defend himself, that plus he is pretty loyal to Adam.  I would have loved it if Matt had tried to influence Adam, and he had laughed it off, saying that between a willpower built up over four centuries and practice with Maury, he's pretty much immune.
[/spoiler]

[GhostMachine]

For those who don't know, G4 re-runs the week's episode on Saturday night, with a 1 hour Post Show on afterward. This week they had the actor who plays Ando on as co-host, with producer Tim Kring, director Allan Arkush, and the actors who play HRG, Maya and the Haitian on as guests.

STOP READING NOW IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE LAST EPISODE AIRED, AS THIS CONTAINS SPOILERS!

A few things they revealed:

[spoiler]Originally the plan was for the virus to get loose - ie, Peter didn't catch the vial in time - but they changed their minds and decided to go in a different direction.

When they shot the scene with Elle attacking Sylar, the glass Sylar crashed through was actually CGI; the rest of the glass windows were real. Good thing, because they had to film the scene 3 times due to technical problems (the explosive charges they used for sfx didn't go off the first two tries), and the scene was supposed to be longer but they ran out of time due to having to reshoot twice. (There was going to be more footage of Elle standing in the hallway afterward)

This past episode wasn't necessarily the season finale, just the end of Volume 2. They planned for this season to actually be Volumes 2, 3 and 4, with the breaks throughout the season marking the end of each Volume. If the Writers' Guild strike ends in time, they do plan on trying to do Volume 3 if they can.

The meaning of the helix symbol (which keeps popping up everywhere) was actually going to be revealed in the first episode of Heroes: Origins, but they haven't decided when they'll reveal it now.

The interactive poll for who shot Nathan had "A New Character" in the lead, with "HRG" second.

It was kind of hinted at, but not actually said, that Nathan may not be dead.[/spoiler]

A couple things I thought were interesting:

The actor who plays the Haitian really IS Haitian, and he originally auditioned for the role of DL.....3 times. The Haitian was originally going to be a Maori.

The actor who played DL is now doing the lead role in a play that Adrian Pasdar is involved with. (I'm guessing he's the producer, or something) This was revealed in a text window thing at the bottom of the screen, not discussed by the guests.

[stumpy]

Good points, Conduit.

[spoiler]I agree that the regeneration has definitely been shown to be halted by some brain injuries. In those cases, it seemed like it was the presence of some obstruction that was key. In the FYG case with Claire, I think it's likely that whatever Sylar does to the brain (whether it is literal eating or something else) represents permanent tissue destruction, the same way immolation does. But you are right that the regeneration process has been shown to be stoppable.

I guess my issue is with the way the characters were acting as if a shot to the head is sort of a general Achilles' heel, when it may well take a pretty lucky shot to do the right kind of damage. Adam's "there's no coming back from that, mate." comment made it sound as though if he were decapitated, that would be the end of him, and maybe it would keep him from regenerating on his own. But, I don't think it would be surprising if he were recapitated (someone puts his head back in the right place), that he would regenerate fine. (Nevermind that decapitation isn't really a brain injury anyway.)


Angela was able to stall long enough to convince Matt to take the pressure off, though it seemed like she definitely would have crumbled if Matt had pushed her again. I am glad the power isn't shown to be irresistible, though it was pretty strong to affect a strong-willed Angela that powerfully when Matt barely had any practice with it.

I still contend that Peter is already too uber and the addition of this sort of power is really taking the character in a direction where we start asking "the Superman question". That is, he has so many very effective powers that, whenever he faces a setback, we want to ask, "Well, why didn't he just use his X ability?" in the same way people wonder why Superman didn't use super speed or heat vision or whatever in a given situation.

I also like the idea that some characters can be immune to the powers of others, either because of exposure or because of some aspect of their own special powers. I think a good power for a new special to exhibit would be to make other people (specials or normals) immune to various powers.


BTW, did we ever find out what Kaito meant by the "I never thought it would be you!" comment when Adam pushed him over the ledge? Why the heck wouldn't it be Adam? It was Adam's symbol on the pictures, to start with. But, more to the point, nothing we've seen about the Adam-Kaito history leads us to believe they parted on good terms. Not the least of which history was Kaito tossing Adam in a cell for thirty years. It would have made as much sense for Kaito to say, "I always thought it would be you!"

Meanwhile, it's interesting to me that Kaito and Adam were in The Company together for years. I wonder if Kaito knew that Adam was Kensei and if Adam ever wondered if this Kaito Nakamura would be the father of the Hiro Nakamura from the future that he met four hundred+ years ago. Of course, it looks like Adam was locked up at the time Hiro was born, but still...[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Stumpy:

[spoiler]
When Peter asked Adam if he really had killed Hiro's father, Adam answer yes without hesitation.  I would guess from that, that he was somehow well aware of Kaito's connection with Hiro.

Actually, given that the two were together for possibly months in the past, and that Adam seems to know more about Hiro's abilities than was shown being discussed in the show, we can assume they had plenty of times to discuss things like Hiro's family.
[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]

When Peter asked Adam if he really had killed Hiro's father, Adam answer yes without hesitation.  I would guess from that, that he was somehow well aware of Kaito's connection with Hiro.

Well, yes, by that time, he definitely knew. I probably wasn't clear that I was curious if Adam had figured out the Kaito would eventually have a son named Hiro back when he and Kaito were on ostensibly good terms. That would have been before Hiro was born.

I guess, I partly can't tell because I have no idea how common a surname Nakamura is in Japan. If it's like Jones is in the U.S., then he might have never thought twice about it. If it's a name like Schimmelpfennig, then he would probably consider the connection.

Adam may have met many Japanese specials, in his long life. He wouldn't necessarily connect all of them to Hiro.

Actually, given that the two were together for possibly months in the past, and that Adam seems to know more about Hiro's abilities than was shown being discussed in the show, we can assume they had plenty of times to discuss things like Hiro's family.

Quite likely. I don't have any idea how long Hiro was supposed to be in Kensei's time or if Kensei and Hiro spent a lot of time discussing the details of their personal histories. But, it's worth noting that, for the most part, Hiro's details would be meaningless to Kensei, even aside from the whole "don't reveal too much of the future" business. I don't mean that friends don't talk about that stuff, I just mean that if I am buddies with people who I know will never meet my father, then I may never tell them his name.
[/spoiler]

[bredon7777]

stumpy:

[spoiler]

Regarding the brain: I had much the same thought- when Mrs. Petrelli said you had to put a bullet through Adam (and/or Peter's) head to kill them, I actually yelled at the screen " A bullet THROUGH the head wont do jack!"  You'd have to somehow arrange for something to lodge there forever to keep them out of the picture.

Regarding Kaito: I'm a little confused about the timeline- is it possible that Kaito didn't KNOW of Adam's escape, and his comment was simply something along the lines of "I thought we'd taken care of you. I never thought you'd escape."? ETA: We know they know Adam's immortal. We don't know if they know he was Takeo Kenzei...

Regarding Peter: Having a ton of power != knowing how to use said power, so I really don't consider Peter to be all that uber.  I still don't think he should have TK at all, but that's another thread.  Plus, he has a lot of powers he simply doesn't know he has - reducing his uberness even more.

Lets make a list:

Powers Peter knows about: TK, telepathy, invisbility, super strength, phasing, electric bolts, flight, going boom, healing, time/space manipulation, future painting. He'd be a <bleep> to beat in a fight, sure- but I'm not ready to stick the uber label on him.

Powers Peter doesnt know about: super hearing, machine control, eidetic memory, freezing things, melting things, transmuting things, extreme intuition.

I miss any? [/spoiler]

[Gremlin]

He might only be able to take powers from Sylar that he's used around him.  That would severely limit the list.  Sure, it's not a prerequisite for anybody else's ability, but we don't know how Sylar's mucked-up DNA screws over Peter's mimicry.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

That's exactly what the writers said.

Of course, the writers have a habit of saying something as if it's set in stone, only for the series to contradict that a few episodes later, so believe what you want.

[OutsiderNo11]

He might only be able to take powers from Sylar that he's used around him.  That would severely limit the list.  Sure, it's not a prerequisite for anybody else's ability, but we don't know how Sylar's mucked-up DNA screws over Peter's mimicry.

Not to mention that when the Company had Sylar captured in the first season, they found no other powers besides telekinesis.  That may be the only ability that Sylar uses constantly and as such is the only one that Peter knows.  Perhaps his other abilities have to be activated, much like Peter's, in some fashion for him to use them.  Or maybe Peter's own power is limited to the amount of time he has exposure to the person.  In Sylar's case, he has so many powers that may Peter didn't have time to absorb them.  Or maybe the overload in the first season was caused by the fact that Peter couldn't absorb Sylar's power along with all the others who were present at the time.

As for the shot to the head:

When Victoria Pratt was going to shoot Peter, it was a shotgun blast to the head.  That doesn't lodge a bullet in the brain, that destroys a significant portion of the brain.  For Noah, the bullet was most likely removed before Mohinder applied Claire's blood.  We've seen how in the first season that objects lodged in the brain prevent regeneration (and total removal or destruction as well).

Regarding the new plot device that the blood of Adam and Claire regenerate other people:

This is most likely due to the source of regeneration in the characters.  There is probably some unknown gland in the brain that creates some kind of enzyme that provides fast healing and tissue restoration.  Maybe some kind of stem-cell creator or something.

[bredon7777]

Trailer for Vol 3, made out of the bits and pieces of stuff they were able to film before the strike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iBLZ_4rTuQ

[Conduit]

Trailer for Vol 3, made out of the bits and pieces of stuff they were able to film before the strike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iBLZ_4rTuQ

[spoiler]And, I suppose, made out of the bits and pieces that fit closely to their new plan for Volume 3.  Hence, absolutely no Peter, Nathan, Matt, or Mohinder as they would have been tied up with the virus storyline in the original plan.  Of course, part of the reason there's so much Sylar in the trailer is that they tried to film his scenes early, because he would have had to do that Star Trek film later in the year.

That said, I wonder if they did write and film a few scenes at the last minute just for this trailer.  I find it hard to believe that HRG would have been talking about the "villains" storyline, as that wasn't going to come up until much later.[/spoiler]

[lugaru]

My thoughts on endless regeneration:

[spoiler]Hiro had a chance to save his father, and learned it was not heroic to do so. I think all saves will be done by badguys, and as such will only be there to create drama/conflict. In other words dont expect Hiro to constantly go back to save people and Clair infusing everyone with her blood. I expect good guys to die and people who are useful to the badguys to live long, frequently ressurected lives. [/spoiler]

[OutsiderNo11]

The graphic novels are still coming out.  It looks like last week's one hints at how they plan on getting Adam out of his prison and this week's one features Bob turning a man into gold (which is pretty evil).

Anyway, the next volume will feature loads of more villains, so we may get a much nicer conflict and probably a series of murders committed by Sylar that we won't feel too bad about.

One thing I would like to see, that wasn't in this past volume, is someone who can take on Sylar and Peter without the need for copying or stealing other people's powers.  And it would have to be a power that is wholly unique and not seen before in the Heroes universe.  Also, it can't be reality manipulation, because that's way too clichéd.

So far, though, they have given us several characters who can probably take on Sylar on their own, namely Matt Parkman (should he realize his full potential), Elle, the Haitian, and, of course, Peter.  So I don't really regard him as a huge threat, though he will be a considerable one.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Well, fortunately, comic book writers don't fall under the screenwriter's union.  In fact, they may even be the same writers (they were before) but it's okay since this is a comic book.

Oh and don't forget Hiro.  He is perfectly capable of taking on Sylar as well, expecially as his powers and sword skills increase.  He nearly took him out at the end of season 1, and Sylar found it frustratingly difficult to fight him, due to his teleportation.

[Talavar]

For someone who could take on Sylar without copying/stealing powers, I'd like to see someone with old-school invulnerabilty.  It always bugged me how promotional material for Heroes has called Claire indestructible, when she just heals really fast.  If invulnerability was someone's only power - and most heroes still only have one - it's not overpowering compared to Sylar, Peter or Hiro.

[OutsiderNo11]

For someone who could take on Sylar without copying/stealing powers, I'd like to see someone with old-school invulnerabilty.  It always bugged me how promotional material for Heroes has called Claire indestructible, when she just heals really fast.  If invulnerability was someone's only power - and most heroes still only have one - it's not overpowering compared to Sylar, Peter or Hiro.

You mean someone like Diamond Lil?  I could definitely see a villain along those lines.  Someone who Sylar could throw around, freeze, fry, and whatever else and (s)he just keeps on coming.  Not even Sylar's telekinesis could penetrate his/her tough skull.  A villain of that caliber would be a tough fight indeed.

I also think there should be a new character who has telekinesis but is levels above Sylar and Peter in terms of effectiveness and experience.  Both the aforementioned characters have only had those abilities for a short time.  Think of someone with 10 years of experience and practice.

[bearded]

ok, i've seen all episodes up to season 2 episode 10.  is there anything after eleven?
i'm really impressed with claire's dad.  he's scarier than batman to me.

[Conduit]

ok, i've seen all episodes up to season 2 episode 10.  is there anything after eleven?

No, thanks to the writer's strike, this season is eleven episodes long.

[crimsonquill]

[No, thanks to the writer's strike, this season is eleven episodes long.

Yeah, quite true.. The producers and writers started looking at the negative forum feedback from the episodes coming out as the strike loomed on the horizen and decided that if it happened then they would put Volume Three on hiatus until the Fall 2008 season. I'm sure that the writing team has been hammering out the new storyline while the strike was on just unofficially and putting more effort into the online comics (since the strike didn't include comics) to keep the fans going until their return.

- CrimsonQuill

[OutsiderNo11]

You know, the graphic novels are still going.

This week, a young Linderman encountered someone who could also steal other people's powers, although she didn't have to remove their brains.

On that note, I still think that Sylar's abilities are not actually "stolen."  I think he, as a result of his power, knows where to look and learns how to do it himself after looking at the brains he removes.  In a sense, he is acquiring powers we all could if we had the intricate knowledge that he naturally possesses as a result of his original power.

[Conduit]

Yeah, the general thinking is along those lines.  He examines the brains, maybe takes them apart, figures out how the power works, and then does something to replicate the power in himself.

[Gremlin]

And then he should eat them.  Just for the rush.

Seriously.  That would be the coolest serial killer compulsion ever.  "I steal your powers...and then eat your brain to show my dominance over you/make sure nobody else can have them!  BWAHAHA!"